Thread: Using Caffeine as a Trigger

Highlander, happy to see you join the caffeine thread.

A bit late with updates this week, here we go:

It was very hard to stop caffeinating after such impressive results, so on 15th I gave it another shot.
Date: 15 June
Dose: 1/2 chilled latte (52mg caffeine)
Supporting supps: WBTB lecithin (500mg) & B-complex
WBTB/Dose time: +5 hrs after sleep (TST* = 6 hrs)
Technique: matras
Lucid: yes but couldn’t make much of it
Comments: A poor quality very short WILD, couldn’t stabilize, and then had some trouble falling asleep

Mute micro-WILD

Then decided to combine my fav caffeine and SJW, but didn’t get lucid on this occasion. Sleep was good nevertheless.

Date: 17 June
Dose: 1/2 chilled latte (52mg caffeine)
Supporting supps: pre bed SJW, WBTB: 2x200mg peppermint oil capsules
WBTB/Dose time: +6 hrs after sleep (TST* = 9 hrs)
Technique: fell asleep during matras
Lucid: no
Comments: The SJW and menthol still resulted in vivid dreams, but I was too sleepy to take advantage of the enhanced dream quality. I want to give this combo another try, hopefully will pick up a better day to do it.

16-19 June Summary

EDIT:

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

The caffeine seems to be great at making it way easier to cross the gap with more of your awareness intact. Suppressing deep sleep, I think, has a lot of positive effects that help you either WILD or realize that you're dreaming. What was interesting with this session was that while there were 2 WILDs, there were also multiple DILDs (one via SSILD, I believe, the others spontaneous.)

It's speculative, but this would seem to indicate that caffeine does a lot more than just help with WILDs. Minimizing deep sleep and acting as an adenosine antagonist may be helping the waking consciousness stay just that little bit more active so that it's more easily aroused once dream situations become strange enough.

Yeah, I agree with that. It makes a lot of sense and this research thread goes to add more proof in that direction.

Welcome aboard Hilander! Glad you're giving it a shot.

Wow NyxCC you've really been cranking this out. I'm going to have to try some redbull or Starbucks really soon. I didn't want to do that initially but I see the value in the added supplements and sugars ect.

Great stuff guys. I love it. I promise to put in some actual research soon.

Date: 21st June 2013
Dose: Pro Plus x1 tablet (50 mg Caffeine @ WBTB)
Supporting supps: Zinc (x1 10 mg @ Bed) Banana (x1 @ WBTB)
WBTB/Dose time: +4.5 hrs after bed
Technique: Not applicable – WBTB & regimen (method)
Lucid: No
Comments: Slight insomnia post-Bed and post-WBTB. Headache Inb4.
Total sleep time between the 10.5 hour period (excluding 30 min WBTB) was roughly between 8.25 to 8.5 hrs approx.
I did have a bit of a bad headache pre-Bed, etc. which didn’t help much.
My recall was ok considering. I mainly noted down short sentences/keywords as I felt a bit groggy/lazy later on.

DV building. College, BSR, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


@ NyxCC, @ Xanous - Thanks guys!

I gave this a shot, and got some. Err, interesting results to say the least.

Dose: 1 small coke, about 34 mg
Bedtime: Around 9 o' clock.
Dose time: Around 8 o' clock.
Technique: DILD
Supporting Supplements: 1 cup apple juice [10 minutes before falling asleep]

And I got this: I don't even know anymore... - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

It was amazing, and weird, and I don't even know. But I have my assumptions that it was because of the caffeine. It got 10/10 vividness, it felt like real life without any question. It was one of my longer dreams, and it was a dream inside of a dream.

Definitely trying this again tonight, see if I get any better results.

Thanks for joining in. Looks like you did the caffeine at the beginning of sleep. Is that right? Maybe you hit lucidity during nREM which would explain the craziness.

Well, yeah, I used it near the beginning. I thought it would be best that way, so that I don't miss completely and it have a negative effect.

Ok, second testing night.

Dose: 1 small coke (~34 mg)
Bedtime: Around 10:00
Technique: DILD
Dose time: Around 8:00
Supporting Supplements: Popcorn (movie night, what can I say?)

I went to bed extremely tired (which may have disturbed something?) and got nothing. The caffeine didn't help. Now this may just be a problem with me going to a movie, or going to bed too late, or just my simply not so good dream recall.

Sweet dreams.

Just a suggestion: I think you will have much better results if you try it with a brief WBTB after 4-6 hours sleep; just long enough to drink it and lay back down with a quick induction technique. The prebed doses are interesting, though.

Yeah, I think I might try that tonight.

Note: This is from morning of 6/20/2013

Dose: 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea
Bedtime: 11:00PM
WBTB wake time: ~3:00AM
Dose Time: ~3:00AM
Technique: SSILD / WILD
Lucid: Yes. One lucid dream and one micro-lucid.

The lucid dream:
Vanity at The Doppelganger Water Park - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Dose: 8.5oz Redbull (80mg caffeine)
Supporting Supplements: Vitamin additives.
Bedtime: 11:00PM
WBTB/dose time: 3:30AM (Brief)
Technique: Mantra SSILD
Lucid: Yes (sort of)

During the first hour I remember becoming lucid twice ( more like remembering that I was trying to get lucid). It seemed like heavy HI and random thoughts when I came to and I woke up immediately. I experience just a little wakefulness and had a very vivid and interesting NLD during the second hour. The dream involved buying live seafood with CanisLucidus on the company card. The elderly and confused cashier tried to ring me up on a laptop but had no idea how it all worked.

Live Seafood NLD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Date: 22 June
Dose: 1/2 latte (52 mg caffeine)
Supporting supps: pre bed: 120 mg Gingko, 500 mg l-arginine
WBTB/Dose time: +5 hrs after sleep
TST: 6 hrs
Technique: mantras, SSILD, WILD
Lucid: yes
Comments: I was quite dehydrated from dinner and spent too much time drinking water then visiting the restroom, which amplified my insomnia. On the other hand after finally falling asleep I got some lds that I patched up into a more coherent dream thanks to all the advice.

Ld Patchwork

Date: 25 June
Dose: 6/10 of frap bottle (60 mg caffeine)
Supporting supps: pre bed SJW, 2 drops p.oil, WBTB 200mg p.oil capsule
WBTB/Dose time: +5 hrs after sleep
TST: 8 hrs
Technique: fell asleep during mantra, so almost none
Lucid: about 3 hrs later
Comments: You can say I almost missed this one as I was really sleepy. The ld I got was more a product of me being close to final wake time than result of caffeine? Dreams were vivid and sleep was nice post SJW and menthol and obviously no insomnia this time.

Obsessed with TOTM

Yet another test with coke, this time with a WBTB as y'all suggested.

Dose: 1 small coke (~36 mg)
Bedtime: Around 11:00
Dose time: Drank it in two parts, once at around 10:00, finished it at around 10:55
WBTB time: 3:46 (I know, it took me 6 minutes to get up)
Supporting supplements: None

And I got...
Around 3 small fragments. My best one being this:
Vague memory - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

The other one had something to do with superman (What?), and the other one had something to do with iced tea.

I'm not sure if this is just my bad dream recall because I'm new to this, or what. But things are not looking good on my end.

Date: 28 June
Dose: some Red bull (50 mg caffeine)
Supporting supps: multivits
WBTB/Dose time: +6 hrs after sleep
TST: 8 hrs
Technique: not really
Lucid: no
Comments: Bizarre but interesting vivid dreams, unfortunately too sleepy to do a proper WBTB induction

Field of the ancients NLD

Date: 30 June
Dose: 6/10 of latte (60 mg caffeine)
Supporting supps: pre bed 3mg mel
WBTB/Dose time: +5 1/2 hrs after sleep
TST: 6 1/2 hrs
Technique: 2 SSILD cycles, lots of rolling over to WILD
Lucid: yes
Comments: Even though it was not pleasant with an hour and half of insomnia this helps me to a lucid. Those from scratch lds are still a challenge due to instability and too much caffeine wakefulness, but this one was quite long and extremely vivid. The second time I have a mute ld.

Multiverse mute

Date: 02 July
Dose: 6/10 of latte (60 mg caffeine)
Supporting supps: pre bed SJW, 100mg B6, WBTB 200mg p.oil capsule
WBTB/Dose time: +6 hrs after sleep
TST: 8 hrs
Technique: quickly fell asleep after starting mantra, so none
Lucid: kind of
Comments: I am noticing that SJW is making me very sleepy in the last three trials (once a week). I love the sleep I get with SJW plus menthol as it is nice mood and very restorative. However, I am sleeping so deeply it is very hard to ld. On this occasion had an early LD (+2 hrs after bed) but apart from the overexcitement and a brief scene, there is very little I remember. Couldn’t remember dreams in much detail after the latte WBTB either. Had a strange void to OBE/FA whatever thing just before final wake, but couldn’t do much there. I need to extend my WBTB time out of bed by a few more mins and possible stay away from deep sleep supps?

Sleepy

Date: July 3rd
Dose: 1 bag green tea
Supporting Supplements: 120mg Mucana Puriens, 400mg L-Glutamine, Peppermint tea
WBTB/dose time: 3:30AM - 4:00AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: I don't even know
Comments: Crazy intensely vivid FAs and dream control. False memory about being lucid. On the verge of lucidity the entire time. (Micro lucids)

Flying Platform - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Dose: 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea
Bedtime: 11:00PM
WBTB wake time: ~2:15AM
Dose Time: ~2:15AM
Technique: MILD (failed on WILD)
Lucid: Yes.

I hit a great LD with this combo, even though I just barely made it. I tried to WILD after a 30-35 minute WBTB and was getting some really promising HI -- geometric shapes, lots of movement, some faces. Very active stuff and I was sure I had it. But I wound up just falling asleep within a couple of minutes! I finally woke up a couple of hours after my WBTB and while I'd had some nice, vivid dreams, hadn't hit a lucid yet.

I wonder if this means I should experiment with slightly raising my caffeine -- maybe 2 bags of green tea next time? See if I can make that work?

One factor is that I did a very early WBTB. For whatever reason, this is just when I naturally woke up. It's sort of hard to predict since I rely purely on natural awakenings.

Anyhow, I'll have to ponder this more. Appreciate any thoughts you all might have. All's well that ends well!

The lucid dream:
Woodrow the Giant - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I totally understand you! I have been using natural wakes for several reasons and it's just really hard to hit the optimal time for WBTB. Recently, I have been waking up too late so I either call off the entire thing or end up...with insomnia and lose so much sleep.

It's great you made it despite all the sleepiness.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

I wonder if this means I should experiment with slightly raising my caffeine -- maybe 2 bags of green tea next time? See if I can make that work?

One factor is that I did a very early WBTB. For whatever reason, this is just when I naturally woke up. It's sort of hard to predict since I rely purely on natural awakenings.

Raising the caffeine levels slightly might help but I would hate for you to suffer insomnia on a G night. However, I do find that if I wake after an hour of ingesting caffeine, I am not usually awake more than an hour. So It seems, for me anyway, that there is an hour window for the caffeine to kick in and hopefully get lucid then an hour wait to try and pull off a WILD.

As you know, I use an alarm but the few times I have had a natural WBTB have been the most pleasant so I understand going with the early one. But, I have found that the longer I wait for WBTB the better results I have. 5 hours seem better than 4 hours (I think I even did a 6hour wait before) but there is always the problem of my son waking me up too early or having to get up at certain time for work. That's also why I use the alarm but that's not always fool proof. Like last night I was too tired so I thought I hit the snooze but I woke naturally 30min later. I'm looking forward to see how you wake naturally in the podcast by the way!

Originally Posted by NyxCC

I totally understand you! I have been using natural wakes for several reasons and it's just really hard to hit the optimal time for WBTB. Recently, I have been waking up too late so I either call off the entire thing or end up...with insomnia and lose so much sleep.

Glad to not be alone. What have you found to be too late in your experience? For me it seems to relate more to how close to morning, daylight, and activity outside rather than strictly about the number hours of sleep. If there's any trace of daylight or cars going by, I seem to generally be doomed.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Raising the caffeine levels slightly might help but I would hate for you to suffer insomnia on a G night. However, I do find that if I wake after an hour of ingesting caffeine, I am not usually awake more than an hour. So It seems, for me anyway, that there is an hour window for the caffeine to kick in and hopefully get lucid then an hour wait to try and pull off a WILD.

As you know, I use an alarm but the few times I have had a natural WBTB have been the most pleasant so I understand going with the early one. But, I have found that the longer I wait for WBTB the better results I have. 5 hours seem better than 4 hours (I think I even did a 6hour wait before) but there is always the problem of my son waking me up too early or having to get up at certain time for work. That's also why I use the alarm but that's not always fool proof. Like last night I was too tired so I thought I hit the snooze but I woke naturally 30min later. I'm looking forward to see how you wake naturally in the podcast by the way!

Yeah, I know what you mean about taking that extra risk on G night. G is great for reducing the amount of latency between settling down for sleep and the dreams starting. Caffeine helps with keeping the mind active long enough to help cross the gap. But it's so easy to take it too far! I mean, I did still hit a DILD in the end, but I really like hitting WILDs with G since WILDs are not my usual way of getting lucid.

Thanks, I think you're right about the later WBTBs. I'd say the later the better so long as there's no insomnia. I had a pretty late WBTB last night. I was really nervous about insomnia so I cut it to about 15 minutes. I fell asleep really quickly and even though I didn't hit a lucid, I had some close calls and recalled 8 dreams, which is just a huge number for me. I'm going to experiment with timing my natural WBTB simply because it's so darn useful and as research for mahoogie's question!

Glad to not be alone. What have you found to be too late in your experience? For me it seems to relate more to how close to morning, daylight, and activity outside rather than strictly about the number hours of sleep. If there's any trace of daylight or cars going by, I seem to generally be doomed.

I guess it all depends on how sleepy you are during a specific night. My WBTB range is between 4 and 6 hrs after sleep. I prefer it to be 4.5-5 ideally but with no alarm it is hard to hit it. And unfortunately every night is different. Light is somewhat irritating especially in summer but I sleep with a folded T-shirt on my head, so it blocks light just in case. Now sounds can be very distracting, no matter what time it is there is always some noise. Unfortunately there's very little one can do about it, if it's a bad time to ld, it is a bad time.

In the last few days I have been working on developing a viable schedule to LD, but it seems the more I try to control things, the worse it gets. It has been like deep sleep, deep sleep, insomnia, insomnia and recall has been getting worse too. Hahaha! I guess I should take it easy? This always happens when I want to ld very bad.

Anyways, I think about caffeine you should always refer to your own sleepyness levels and WBTB timing, and also how prone you are to insomnia. It's so tricky, something you really need a few extra mg of caffeine, but at other times, it proves too much. There is one thing I want to try by the way, to see if it helps me wake up a bit more, splash some cold water on my face during WBTB instead of caffeine. I know it sounds funny but it might do the trick.

Wow!Congrats on the great recall. Getting anything out of dreamworld is always a bonus.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Anyways, I think about caffeine you should always refer to your own sleepyness levels and WBTB timing, and also how prone you are to insomnia. It's so tricky, something you really need a few extra mg of caffeine, but at other times, it proves too much. There is one thing I want to try by the way, to see if it helps me wake up a bit more, splash some cold water on my face during WBTB instead of caffeine. I know it sounds funny but it might do the trick.

Great thoughts all the way around. I know what you mean about just a few extra mg of caffeine... I sometimes wish there was a little keyboard I could type a really precise number into and have it brew perfectly-caffeinated tea for me right there at WBTB. But I brew my tea the night before out of bags whose caffeine contents are, honestly, probably inconsistent and really hard to gauge accurately. I sometimes desire an unreasonable degree of precision.

You'll have to let me know how the cold water splash goes! One thing I can tell you doesn't work for me is anything which elevates the heartrate. Going up and down stairs to deal with nonsense from the dogs or reading something that gets me all excited and pumped up seem to be my personal pathway to insomnia.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

...There is one thing I want to try by the way, to see if it helps me wake up a bit more, splash some cold water on my face during WBTB instead of caffeine. I know it sounds funny but it might do the trick.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

You'll have to let me know how the cold water splash goes! One thing I can tell you doesn't work for me is anything which elevates the heartrate. Going up and down stairs to deal with nonsense from the dogs or reading something that gets me all excited and pumped up seem to be my personal pathway to insomnia.

Re: The splashing of cold water on the face - I have tried this during WBTB basically to try and DROP the heartrate, by trying to activate the Mamillian Diving Reflex.
Note that the water does have to be below a certain temperature, plus it depends on the length of contact, and/or immersion, etc.
Mammalian diving reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However don't feel like I'm totally disagreeing with you guys, as I agree that splashing cold water on your boat race is bound to make you more (mentally) alert!

Re: The splashing of cold water on the face - I have tried this during WBTB basically to try and DROP the heartrate, by trying to activate the Mamillian Diving Reflex.
Note that the water does have to be below a certain temperature, plus it depends on the length of contact, and/or immersion, etc.
Mammalian diving reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However don't feel like I'm totally disagreeing with you guys, as I agree that splashing cold water on your boat race is bound to make you more (mentally) alert!

You are not contradicting at all, rather providing complementary info. One thing I have noticed is that when it is very warm in the room it is hard to sleep. But why? Well if I measure blood pressure and heart rate on a very warm day than I see that my blood pressure drops as blood vessels expand, at the same time heart rate increases as to provide the necessary flow of nutrients to organs. The opposite happens with cold weather and showers. Vessels come closer together so pressure increases, breathing becomes deeper. (I guess heart should slow down respectively, maybe I should take some cold showers and measure?) It is interesting that according to your link even simply submerging the face triggers a similar effect.

So this might not be a bad thing to try especially during summer and it certainly will increase alertness and hopefully without suppressing NREM/REM like my caffeine doses. Right now I am speculating about it helping me, but soon will see how that works. If it is effective it might help me space out caffeine or just reduce the amount of caffeine during WBTB.

Originally Posted by Highlander

However don't feel like I'm totally disagreeing with you guys, as I agree that splashing cold water on your boat race is bound to make you more (mentally) alert!

Awesome info... I can't even find a point of disagreement! This makes the cold water technique even more exciting! Because if it makes you more mentally alert (which I think we generally agree that it at least seems to do) and it also drops the heart rate, it sounds like a winner! Because an alert mind and a slightly slower heart rate sounds like exactly what you would want to have heading into lucid dream time. Particularly for a WILD.

I'll need to read up on this more! I see some experimentation with cold water in my future.