Work Area for SP sticky thread.

[Zoth]

Gosh, heated discussion I think overall people are doing a nice job on focusing on what really matters, which is presenting the correct concept of SP in the lucid dreaming field. Although I agree with people saying we cannot ignore those who really experience SP, I think it's more important to make SP sound an exception (according to the data provided in the above post for example), so beginners don't actually see it as something which might happen. Also, refering to the reports or even a poll of people who said they had SP, we surely gonna end up with loads of reports being victim of a confirmation bias. It just happens. Also, can you explain how REM atonia does not prevent you from moving? Because technically, that's the point of REM atonia, to prevent you from moving. I see little sense in what is being stated above. The idea that REM atonia completely paralyses you is untrue, and since SP resembles/equals REM atonia, then probably the same could apply to it. Even though I disagree with Auron regarding REM atonia being a type of SP (because if REM atonia is the natural process, then the anomaly which is SP is actually turning the exception as the name of the category), I think it's important that we are careful with "breaking SP or being unable to move". You can move during REM atonia, or at least have minimal muscular voluntary control, according to this article which presents tests made by LaBerge. Presenting the specific information: Figure 4. Morse code communication from the lucid dream. Evidence of voluntary control of other muscle groups during REM was found by LaBerge, Nagel, Dement, and Zarcone (1981) while testing a variety of lucidity signals. We observed that a sequence of left and right dream-fist clenches resulted in a corresponding sequence of left and right forearm twitches as measured by EMG. Here the subject sends a Morse code signal with left and right fist clenches corresponding to dots and dashes, respectively. Hence the message translates as "SL" (... .-..), the subject's initials. Note that the amplitude of the twitches bore an unreliable relationship to the subjective intensity of the dreamed action. Because all skeletal muscle groups except those that govern eye-movements and breathing are profoundly inhibited during REM sleep, it is to be expected that most muscular responses to dreamed movements will be feeble. Nonetheless, these responses faithfully reflect the motor patterns of the original dream. Source: [LaBerge, S. (2000). Lucid dreaming: Evidence and methodology. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23(6), 962-3. Commentary on target articles by J.A. Hobson et al. and by M. Solms in a special issue on dreaming. So, in your WILD experience have you encountered true paralysis, where moving was not an option. I do not mean a lead blanket narcotic effect (I think we all experience that) but a true inability to move if you needed to? If so, do you ever experience it/ did you experience it prior to your lucid dreaming skills? If we ever make a poll (imo, a bad idea, cause the introspective method would do more harm than good in this subject), it would surely have to include this, great job sivason, I was actually digging the thread just to find a sentence like this one, without, the poll is completely useless. I also think that the text should seriously favor a much more simple language, especially due it being targeted at new members (right?). I don't think there's any need to pump the main post with loads of scientific talk. It's the same with every scientific subject: you don't go out and explain people who have no clue about the physiology of sleep in a way that most of them are "what are you talk about?". I'm not saying this is happening, but I think the introduction could be much more "new-user" friendly sivason. Something like: WILD is a very famous method of lucid dreaming induction. Since it reflects the conscious process of falling asleep and entering in the dream, it has been target of a great deal of reports regarding all the subjective experiences. No WILD experience is exactly alike another, and this is important if you're trying to measure your success (or lack of) during your attempts. The most popular expression regarding WILD is the term Sleep paralysis, or SP. Although Sleep paralysis is not originally related to Lucid Dreaming, this experience was (and still is) being so cultivated amongst the onironaut culture, that it has created a serious misconception about the natural process of falling asleep consciously. Why should you read this thread? This thread was made by several staff and members of the DV community, as a way of educating you on the subject of Sleep Paralysis, so you may learn to identify if you are being victim of a rare sleep disorder, or if you're merely experiencing an array of natural sleep phenomenon that happen to virtually any people. In addition, this thread also serves the purpose of clearing several misconceptions regarding WILD, by using scientific background and testimonial reports of people who range from expert WILD practitioners to people that suffer from the condition of Sleep paralysis. We should strike for something like this imo (not necessarily the text above, but you get the idea). The deal is that you want to present the information as simple and short as possible, in order to maintain a clear image of the message you're trying to transmit. Trust me, I'm involved in several communities of lucid dreaming writing articles and revising guides, and I've received a lot of feedback of beginners saying some content is just too complex to present. A good example is this thread, which most people ignore because it's way too "deep". Of course it's essential to have it, and that's why we're here, but you can simply put the "heavier stuff" - more detailed information, sources, quotes, link to discussion topic - in another post below the main one (like a reply). Just for the sake of the beginners, I'm sure we would all agree that many people ignore the science of lucid dreaming (which is totally fine), so sparing them from the "heavy" talk would be way more effective.

[nina]

The idea that REM atonia completely paralyses you is untrue, and since SP resembles/equals REM atonia, then probably the same could apply to it. Even though I disagree with Auron regarding REM atonia being a type of SP (because if REM atonia is the natural process, then the anomaly which is SP is actually turning the exception as the name of the category), I think it's important that we are careful with "breaking SP or being unable to move". You can move during REM atonia, or at least have minimal muscular voluntary control, according to this article which presents tests made by LaBerge. Presenting the specific information: Figure 4. Morse code communication from the lucid dream. Evidence of voluntary control of other muscle groups during REM was found by LaBerge, Nagel, Dement, and Zarcone (1981) while testing a variety of lucidity signals. We observed that a sequence of left and right dream-fist clenches resulted in a corresponding sequence of left and right forearm twitches as measured by EMG. Here the subject sends a Morse code signal with left and right fist clenches corresponding to dots and dashes, respectively. Hence the message translates as "SL" (... .-..), the subject's initials. Note that the amplitude of the twitches bore an unreliable relationship to the subjective intensity of the dreamed action. Because all skeletal muscle groups except those that govern eye-movements and breathing are profoundly inhibited during REM sleep, it is to be expected that most muscular responses to dreamed movements will be feeble. Nonetheless, these responses faithfully reflect the motor patterns of the original dream. And from that same source which you conveniently left out... These and related studies show clearly that in REM sleep, dreamed bodily movements generate motor output equivalent at the supraspinal level to the patterns of neuronal activity that would be generated if the corresponding movements were actually executed. Most voluntary muscles are, of course, paralyzed during REM, with the notable exceptions of the ocular and respiratory muscles. Hence, the perfect correspondence between dreamed and actual movements for these two systems (Figs. 1-3), and the attenuated intensity (but preserved spatio-temporal pattern) of movements observed in Figure 4. These results support the isomorphism hypothesis (Hobson et al.) but contradict Solms's (1995) notion of the "deflection" of motor output away from the usual pathways, and his speculation that it isn't only the musculo-skeletal system that is deactivated during dreams, but "the entire motor system, including its highest psychological components which control goal-directed thought and voluntary action." (Solms 1995, p. 58) I believe Occam's Razor favors the simpler hypothesis that the motor system is working in REM essentially as it is in waking, except for the spinal paralysis; just as the only essential difference between the constructive processes of consciousness in dreaming and waking is the degree of sensory input. See LaBerge (1998) for details. Ok, that's all I want to add, there seems to be a real misunderstanding in the information you provided regarding the nervous system and the impact of paralysis on the skeletal system and actual movement (not just muscular twitches). Ok...done here.

[Sivason]

Zoth00, me and sageous (he PMd me on it) completely agree with you that this should be kept simple. My first attempt at finding a middle ground was to provide the data Nina wanted, but using a small text size. This is to show that you can skip the science stuff if it is not interesting to you. I probably will break the intro into two posts, the first being very very simple, it would end roughly where I put large bold print in. The second containing the rest. At this point I will likely not make any large revisions to the text, but I want to invite you to be one of the contributors. I am only at 4 opinions so far. You seem well spoken and clear, so you can be one of the 'opinions,' if you want. I will compile the first go at this thread today, and sticky it in the DVA for the moment. Then, after seeking the opinions of any active staff that cares,, it will be stickied in the WILD section, if deemed suitable. Thanks again zoth00. Also, thanks for the confermation on movement in REM. I was sure Gab, me and Sageous were correct, as I have first hand experience, but getting doubters to believe us is much easier with data, like you provided. It can be much more movement than forearm twitching too. Gab moved one arm up to her chest and then the other. I have been able to slowly reach out and hit the snooze button, or shift positions if I get a cramp. Movement like that has a risk of waking me, but I feel it is a skill that improves with time. We are talking slow gentlle volentary movements, but clearly we are not unable to move. If I do not care about waking myself I can move at will, like the DJ link where I sit up in bed to test REM atonia.

[gab]

Zoth00, me and sageous (he PMd me on it) completely agree with you that this should be kept simple. I very much agree, that first paragraphs should be kept very simple, with text continuing into more scientific explanation, for those interested. I think, that 14yr olds need to hear that they don't need SP to LD and that common HH are not SP.

[Sivason]

I very much agree, that first paragraphs should be kept very simple, with text continuing into more scientific explanation, for those interested. I think, that 14yr olds need to hear that they don't need SP to LD and that common HH are not SP. Agreed then. I am closing the work area thread. I will compose a first draft of the thread today in thhe DG section, and have MelanieB proof it and adjust it as needed. We also must think about our many members with limited English skills. Zoth00, if you want to contribute an opinion, please PM it to me and it can be added to the thread. Thanks.

[Sivason]

One post from each contributor will be moved from this thread, so I cann paste their opinions into a post that is from them. This will allow people later to read the profile of each person, if they wish.

[Sageous]

I feel like I'm not working fast enough, so I swiped a couple of paragraphs from my DVA WILD class about the "noise." I don't think its enough, but I'll try to add more or get rid of unnecessary crap shortly. Let me know if I'm at least playing in the right court, though, or if I should be mentioning something else. Fair warning -- there's an excellent chance I'll wake up tomorrow with an actual idea and change everything (not the concepts, of course; just the words)! Here we go: First, I have had many thousands of WILD's, and never once cared about SP, much less looked for it. No one should. SP is not a mystical or unusual event by any measure because REM Atonia happens naturally every time you are in REM -- it must occur, or else we’d all be flailing about in our beds, or sleepwalking, or shouting, or … well, you get it. That you are consciously aware of it because it remained switched on a bit too long or switched on early does not make it special, unless you consider your ability to defy nature and notice it something special -- which is a pretty cool thing, I suppose. SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LD’ing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP. It is critical for WILD that you understand that SP is not dangerous: it is not an invasion by monsters, or your body failing you, or a break from reality, or any of the other things noted on the forums by breathless dreamers who encounter SP unprepared. It is just a natural bodily function that you happen to notice because you possess waking awareness at a time when nature never intended you to be awake. So if you ever encounter SP (I rarely do) just relax, acknowledge it, and move on! Most of the time SP isn’t really even SP: People who are talking about their experiences in SP are really talking about their experiences in NREM sleep, which can include the vibrations, sensory deprivation, and other assorted bells and whistles associated with SP these days. This is sort of a shame, because consciously navigating NREM sleep is an adventure unto itself (and, BTW, the place the Tibetan sleep yogis like to visit), and to belittle it by calling it SP is to miss out on an otherwise good thing.

[nina]

Guys, I apologize for flying off the handle. I've been under a lot of stress lately. Vet school is certainly no walk in the park. I just wanted to publicly apologize to sivason, sageous, and the rest of you...and I appreciate the thoughtful PMs you guys sent to me even after my bitch-switch was activated. I think you guys are doing a great job putting this all together, and I would truly love to contribute more, but my schedule is ridiculous (1 midterm down...6 more to go). I realize you guys want to get this done as quickly as possible (and I only just now realized this thread was closed sorry), so perhaps I can just write my own thread about it on my own time. I promise I will not confuse the terms REM atonia and SP, this is actually something I've wanted to clear up for a long time...ever since shift brought it to our attention a few years back. But I also have a few different ideas, and there's no reason why I can't just make my own thread about it, rather than invading yours. Cheers.