Thread: WILD - The Stable Way to Learn It

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

This is the best thread I've seen in a long while. =)

Haha!

Originally Posted by Sensei

Hmmm... Interesting things mastermind. I will be keeping tabs on this thread. I have had about 10 WILDs without prior sleep, and I have thought before about abandoning all and practicing it, because if you could master, you should be able to always LD every time you feel like it. That being said, my current practice is yielding too much fruit to abandon, and I had significantly less DILDS when going so hard and fast for WILD. I will write more later (it is bed time, and I want to LD now), but I am very interested.

There is a "no method" method that people seem to be keen to after they hit a certain amount of LDs, normally for DILD though, but I am going to write a thread on this soon. Good luck with your experiments!

I am glad that I am not the only one who have thought this.

I have some happy news for you! Last night I went to bed and I experimented around with different ways to arrange my pillows, in order to be sitting up in my bed, still be comfortable and still not fall asleep. I went to the extreme and used three pillows and well I did find a nice setup, but I decided to listen to some audio on the Iphone.
I thought well usually I click out no matter what guided meditation I listen to, so if I manage to be aware through it all I know I have found a good posture.

I listened to this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eVdFaGmBhk

Because I had it converted to mp3 in my Iphone library. I managed to stay aware through the whole thing! My legs were vibrating and my body got relaxed.
I had edited out the intro though, so the audio was about 18 minutes. "Perfect!" I thought... I then just kept my headphones on and continued to relax and wait, but then suddenly from nowhere this audio blasted into my ears:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okpf-cgIwFE

I had forgot that my gym tracks would play as well. I thought "Well let's see if my body can relax to high audio. It couldn't...

However something weird happened, in the middle of one song my head just made a fast strong jolt forward, like a reflex, and after that I took my headphones off and rolled over to my side and fell asleep. The attempt was made between 23:51 to 00:25.

I had some really vivid dreams, in one of them I was doing taekwondo with full control, but I wasn't lucid, but very connected to my dream body.

In the morning I tried out some new pillow setups and I found one where I had a pillow under my lower back and one behind my neck, and it was late morning so I didn't attempt to do anything it was time to go up. But I was really excited over this new pillow setup because the pillow behind the lower back made it feel almost like I was laying in a sunchair.

It's one thing to find a posture that makes you not fall asleep unconsciously, it's another thing to find a posture that is comfortable.

Since I basically can do whatever induction I want, because I know that the posture will still keep me aware, it's a whole lot of fun to choose a WILD technique, because I know that I with this posture already have the first and the hardest stage almost guaranteed, the relaxation stage.

So the result from Exploration 1: What happens if I lay still on my back for 20 minutes with closed eyes? (and remain aware)

Sensations: Itches, swallowing, (sneezing), not feeling comfortable

Thoughts: Negative thoughts telling you that you should just give up, thoughts telling you that you can't make it.

Emotions: Sort of can count as thoughts but sometimes you don't think anything but you just have strong urges to give up.

The solution for all of these is to experience them and fail until you are so fed up with them that you automatically resist them.

If you have a posture that lets you stay aware and experience these three signs of a dream (Sensations, thoughts and emotions) over and over. This resistence will happen very quickly.

Sort of like standing on your hands, at first you will not be able to find the balance, you will trip and fall on your head, but after enough repetitions you will find the balance.

I have not completely found this balance yet, so my second question will be to explain how this balance feels in more detail.

Exploration 2: How to endure the relaxation stage? (Sensations, Thoughts and Emotions)

Because I have now explored the first question and solved it's problem, I can now do my practise regularly and for that matter perform it at all.
By exploring the next question I will hopefully encounter new problems that will give me a new piece of the puzzle of the process of falling asleep consciously.

Tonight I think I will take revenge on my first WILD attempts in my career and listen to LaBerges guided induction, but this time I will not fall asleep unconsciously!

Cya!

Also if you feel like it. Don't be afraid to join this thread and share your own thoughts and experiments.

My idea of learning is not to ask a question and get it answered by someone else, but rather to:
Be inspired by others, learn by yourself.

Ok, I'll join the party.

My hypothesis gonna be a bit different to yours, Mastermind:

"Any WILD technique should yield results given that the conditions necessary for WILD, (as laid out by Mzzkc:

You need to be close to REM.
You need to fall asleep.
You need to retain awareness.)

Are in place, the technique is based on an anchor, and sufficient work in the fundamentals of self-awareness and memory is practised."

With that in mind I should be able to pick up any technique and, if the conditions laid out above are in place, be successful. Previously I have flitted from one WILD tech to another, becoming proficient in none, this time I will practise one until I gain an understanding of the mechanics of WILD. I spent the first year of my practice wasting my time chasing 'SP', not knowing the fundamentals and misunderstanding the mechanics of WILD as gaining access to sleep paralysis. I got to thinking that I would never WILD, but I joined Sageous DVA class and I achieved it, I used to think it was impossible and now I don't see why I shouldn't be able to WILD any time I want to (as long as the aforementioned conditions are in place).

I have logged three days of attempts at Jamie Alexander's "LDOC" (Lucid Dream On Command) WILD technique, which consists of lying on your back and focusing on the point where your head is in contact with the pillow as an anchor until you transition into dream. I chose this technique because of it's similarity to meditation techniques for WILD found in dream yoga in which you focus on the chakras of the throat or forehead (not that I believe in chakras per se, I think they have a physiological basis in the body rather than any spiritual substance), and also to these threads on DV:

http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...ations-ld.html

http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...effective.html

But mainly I have picked the technique just because it caught my attention, and it's novelty suits my purpose of picking a random technique and seeing whether it can work for me.


Preliminary attempts



Initial unsuccesses (3ish attempts):

Thoughts - Mind wandering aimlessly, occasionally wondering about progress, only to be hit by waves of numbing and tingling as I enter NREM 1, accompanied by more characteristically 'hypnagogic thoughts' (free associative and surreal), moments later having lapsed in attention.

Emotions: boredom, wanting to give up, excitement

Sensations: Numbness of extremities, rushing waves of warmth/tingling/ numbness, vibrations around the base of the skull and ears/hypnagogia, head sinking into the bed, seeing through closed eye lids

In response to all of these I tried to ignore my body and focus even more my head - fighting any feelings of excitement or expectation.

I have found focusing on the back of my head/base of my skull is a very powerful anchor, pulling me back from the brink of sleep many times, leading to consciousness of a lot of NREM phenomena. It's almost too powerful an anchor, making it difficult to fall asleep after more than eight hours sleep.

Success:

This morning I attempted after 5 hours sleep and WBTB of more than an hour. I experienced all of the above plus transition. After a while of drifting in the hypnagogic state, attention lapsing and snapping back I could see a scene through my closed lids (even feeling my eye mask still) which I simply walked into.

Plan

Having found a timing that works I will continue to wbtb for an hour after 5 hours sleep and do the technique. I will practice at bedtime as well to see how far I can retain awareness and to familiarise myself with WILD/NREM sensations so that I can learn to ignore them better when I attempt for real.

Method of Exploration 2:

I went to bed in my new posture. In a half-sitting posture I started to listen to Stephen LaBerge's Trance Induction. (18min 42sec)
Then I just continue the practise and observe the relaxation period.

Result of Exploration 2:

Before the Exploration: Tired and unfocused mind.

During the Exploration: I was totally aware through out the whole audio, so 18 min without falling asleep unconsciously with a tired mind like that, I was impressed. When the audio was over I started to daydream and think about different things, then I clicked out as usual, although with the exception that I was a little more aware than usual. I wasn't vividly dreaming but I was experiencing my subconscious or automatic thoughts more aware.
Later on as expected I woke up in the middle of the night and this time I checked the time. It was: 00:20!

This means that I had slept for around one hour and 10 minutes.

So maybe my last prediction was right, in a uncomfortable posture I wake up before deep-sleep. I even had an urge to roll over to a more comfortable posture, unfortunately that was what I did. I had a good posture however I had placed the top of my head, hard against the wall, so it was warm and in pain. It was impossible to remain in that posture. I have to found a way to tweak it further to make my head comfortable as well. Or it was a disguised sensation.

Now I have had multiple experiences showing me that it is VERY difficult to remain aware during the first minutes of bedtime, however I somehow found a way to not make that a problem, but an advantage! Sure I am not aware during my firt periods of sleep, so what? With this posture I seem to wake up without an alarm clock right before my deep sleep anyway! (No matter how tired I am).

I had some really vivid, controlled dreams this night, one pee dream, one sex dream and one chase dream. So even if I fail to WILD I seem to have vivid dreams by default anyway, making it much easier to DILD/MILD.

But my goal is to WILD!

Funnily enough I have found the answer to exploration 2 on my first night:

Exploration 2: How to endure the relaxation stage? (Sensations, Thoughts and Emotions) - The Pain Period

Easy! You just surrender to it completely and fall asleep, sleep through the whole thing! If you really want to experience it, not much are going to happen the first hour after bedtime anyway though, well just try meditation for 20 minutes awake, it's the same struggles of negative thoughts, negative emotions and sensations bothering you and your own judging mind and ego. In other words if you want to master the relaxation period fully, then learn to meditate. If you want to cheat it and sleep through it and wake up next to your deep sleep period, fall asleep on your back.

Someday I will hopefully learn to meditate like this, and I am practising meditation every day. But now? Why make it more difficult than it is, if I can skip 1 hour and a couple of minutes by sleeping and waking up at the new stage, fine with me!

When I finnish this journey and get my first (almost) at bedtime WILD the steps I have gone through can be summarized with:

1. How to remain aware
2. How to endure the relaxation stage

and now three will be a continued exploration of (2.) however now it will be more aimed torwards the answer to:

Exploration 3: What happens during deep sleep?

So tonight I will follow the same repeatable steps of, choosing the posture, do whatever I want until I fall asleep, wake up before deep sleep, remain still and explore what happens. I will not have any audio, so at this moment it will be time to use anchors, why not start with the most simple anchor.

The breath.

Hypothesis:

In deep sleep I will be at the end of what my friend describes here: http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...-part-2-a.html

Although I might have to wait 20+ min before things start to happen.

So what will happen? My breath will dissapear and strange things will occur.

We'll see tonight!

Statement: Laying still and remaining aware is all that is needed in order to enter a dream consciously.

Can I answer this yet?

Nope but soon I can. If we take REM sleep into consideration I will at some point have been laying still and aware for more than 2 hours and by then I can see if my statement above is the only thing required to enter a dream consciously. So tonight I will do everything in my power to not get up and see what happens.

Cya!

Last night I got a little lazy and I thought "Hmm maybe I can put my pilllow slightly lower so I get more comfortable", as a result I didn't had my spontaneous awakening.

Tonight I am going to try to do it as usual and make a note about exactly how I setup my pillows.

Since it still was a slightly uncomfortable posture than normal I still experienced extra awareness/ vividness in my dreams.

I should probably take advantage of this fact and use some affirmations or daily awareness, but more about that later, right now WILD is my first and only focus.

Cya!

Very interesting thread and thanks for sharing your knowledge and that video, it's great!

Method of Exploration 3: (Observing) What happens during deep sleep?

Fall asleep with a generally higher awareness than usual with the sleep posture and pillow setup, attempt to enter a vivid dream without REM, or fall asleep slightly unconscious and become aware of the spontaneous awakening. Then observe the mind and body during this stage of deep sleep.

Before and During the Exploration: Tired and really exhausted

I went to be 23:26 and I listened to this relaxing audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXbt6B7GloE
Now I know how to setup my posture, I was tired out of my mind and still woke up in the middle of the night and I checked the time again.
I had my expected spontaneous awakening 01:09 which means that I had been laying still for one hour and 44 minutes!
When I woke up I remembered that I had been experiencing unconscious thoughts and I hadn't experienced a vivid dream, so I treated this awakening as a chance to DEILD because I might be close to REM and even if I wasn't the mind should be easier to focus.

I had extreme urges to move my arms in line with my thoughts. Like for example if I thought "Ok now I am going to take charge of my life!" I almost sleep walked and moved my arms in my bed, hard to explain but I acted out my thoughts. When I became aware of these movements and was fully awake I thought "Ok now I have moved so heavily that I can just roll over and go to sleep". BAD IDEA!

I got insomnia! I was unable to fall asleep, had a terrible headache and was really negative and whiny. I totally gave up on the exploration and all I did was to try to fall asleep. But I couldn't! I couldn't relax, I couldn't lay still and I couldn't clear my mind from negative thoughts and emotions.
Right now I am reading a book named "Philosophy for life and other dangerous situations" by Jules Evans and in that book he mention a philosopher named Epictetus who talks about the idea of only focusing on what's in our control and not what's out of our control.

Right now my only goal was to fall asleep, I think I can finally understand why my natural OBE friend only had that goal and not lucid dreaming here. http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...technique.html

I did everything, I tried multiple comfortable sleeping postures, counted down from 100 to 0, tried to relax as much as possible.

But then I listened to this guided meditation on my Iphone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1RdEVXWXbU
I listened to that for 50 minutes! Without falling asleep! But after doing some breathing exercises and positve thinking, my mind had gone from:
Headache to Clear and Tranquil
Wanting to move to Less aware of my body and not feeling any need to move
Negativity to Postivity

I changed audio and listened to a guided astral projection instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-0zGJhiDPY

In this video I was told to focus on the space between my eyebrows and focus on my breathing.

And as I did this something very interesting happened.

The colored dots behind my eyelids started to grow and pulsate like a weak psychadelic trip.

Like this one, but not as fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky8hRr8QcHE

Then I lost consciousness for a brief moment, just a few second or so, but when I woke up again, I had an extreme urge to move and I gave in.

Later on in the night I had incredibly vivid dreams.

Result:

I have now experienced a night where I lay still over 90 minutes, since I don't fall asleep or relax my body completely maybe it can take some longer time.
But what I do know now is that even if the only requirement to fall asleep consciously is to lay still and remain aware, urges, thoughts and sensations wont let you do that as easily. So therefore that will be my new problem to solve: How to ignore the sensations of deep sleep?

Problem Number 2: Remaining still

Some nights my problem is that I fall asleep unconsciously while doing my WILD, other nights I just can't fall asleep at all.
Since I started doing my explorations here, I now have a solution for both.

The nights I fall asleep unconsciously I have found a way to get aware of my spontaneous awakenings.
And the nights where I don't I just see that as an oppurtunity to practise bedtime WILD.

A problem I have encountered now during my WILDs and this is another sticking point which will if solved will make my journey progress to new heights.
And well that is the problem of remaining still, and last night I did the best before WILD attempt I have done in my entire life but in the end the problem was that I couldn't resist the urge to move. Here is what I did:

I went to bed 22:22 in my half-sitting posture and I closed my eyes and relaxed deeply. When I gave up I was 100% sure that I hadn't clicked out a single time and the time was then 23:29!!! Which means that I had been laying still and aware for 1 hour and 7 minutes!
During this time I felt my body get relaxed and I felt some tingling and small vibrations in different parts of the body and I felt my breath change and my body got heated up at times.

What I did during this time was basically lots of thinking and day dreaming.

My first way of trying to tackle this problem is to take total responsability of my minds ability to calm down.
I will focus on my breath and meditate for hours if that is what it takes!

But my goal right now is to just reach the 2 hour mark.

Why? Because my goal right now is not to WILD, I am only going to focus on what I can control and that is to remain still and aware for as long as possible. If I can do it longer than a a whole sleep cycle and nothing happens, then I probably have to reconsider my approach.
But for now I'll just treat it as conscious sleep.

Method of Exploration 3: (Observing) What happens during deep sleep?

Fall asleep with a generally higher awareness than usual with the sleep posture and pillow setup, attempt to enter a vivid dream without REM, or fall asleep slightly unconscious and become aware of the spontaneous awakening. Then observe the mind and body during this stage of deep sleep.

Before and During the Exploration: I went to bed 22:24 without listening to any audio and I got the idea of focusing on non-physical things by using my real senses. For example I begin by thinking "What can I see?" and I look at the black canvas of my eyelids, then I ask "What can I hear?" and I listen for any ringing or other sound, I even asked "What can I feel?" and I tried to feel any strange sensations in my body. Then I proceeded with taking really deepbreaths and on each exhale I imagined myself getting more and more relaxed and it was like I pumped myself with relaxation.

As a result I fell asleep unconsciously this time, but I woke up after a dream and my first thought was "Perfect! Now I can check how long I need to lay still in order for me to enter a dream", I got up to check the time and...02:01!!!

No! Really... I need to lay still for 3 hours and 30 minutes, and as I recall this dream it wasn't even that long. It was vivid for sure and I experienced high degrees of dream control (not lucid), but is it worth it?

I probably had another dream earlier, but if this second one was so short, then the first one must have been even more so.

I also woke up with a headache, insomnia and tossed and turned in my bed until I gave up and watched Youtube Videos.

And NOPE it wasn't pr0n I actually watched the total opposite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJ_QfP2mhU

Going to stop fap completely and use my sexual energy for productive stuff, like this practise for example.

But I fell asleep 04:51!!!

I finally realized that the reason I couldn't fall asleep was that I was freezing, I put on some socks and fell asleep like a lamb.

So yeah even though it was a tough night, I did atleast got a timing for my dreams, so now I can I really test out if laying still with closed eyes is the only requirement to get a lucid dream. If I can do this for 3 hours and 30 minutes and nothing happens, I know for sure that my statement is false. Then something else is needed than just relaxation and awareness. I mean I don't think my natural obe friend was lying still for 3 hours and 30 minutes.

Although I am determined to find out! I hit a wall today

But who knows maybe in the future I'll appreciate this challenge.

I like to see every road-block as an oppurtunity to learn and instead of seeing it as an obstacle I choose to view it with the idea of "How can I use this to my advantage? And if I solve this problem what benefits will it give me?".

In this case the knowledge of knowing that I have to lay still for atleast 3 hours and 30 minutes (or less, or even more!) I have to see this as a way to learn really high degrees of self-discipline and even if I fail doing this before bed, later on this ability can be used combined with a WBTB with high effect. Or I simply learn to meditate for long periods of time and if I fall asleep and wake up with insomnia, again it's just another oppurtunity to learn to sleep consciously.

I already follow the Stoic tradition of keeping a Journal and logging my thoughts as so called hupomnemata I might as well go through the extreme Spartan like mind training. And I honor Epictetus idea of 30 Days of becoming your action.

My mind is really tired right now so I apologize for the gibberish philosophy talk.

Cya tomorrow lovely readers! Namnlös.jpg

Spontaneous plans came up: 2 Nights of partying - Will have to postpone my exploration a little bit.

New strategy for tonight:

During the relaxation sometimes it feels like the body gets heated up and it get so hot that you are forced to give up. Today I thought of practising endurance these sensations by sunbathing and meditating. At first it was really uncomfortable and hot but then I focused on my breath and actually fell asleep.
So tonight I am going to only have one goal in mind as I do my exploration. Fall asleep in the half-sitting posture, intentionally and over and over again until I dream in it.

I will either lay still awake and focus on my breath as the time goes by and pass my goal of 3 hours and 30 minutes or fall asleep in this posture and pass the time that way. Both ways are fine.

Cya tomorrow!

This night I fell asleep throguh the whole night. I possibly might have woke up and in a super tired state of mind switched position and fall back to sleep.

However if I didn't there is two possible reasons for not waking up this night.

The first is that I was two nights sleep deprived, so we'll see what happens tonight when my mind is back to normal.

And the second is that I intended to just fall asleep and this intention is easy, habitual and natural so it's exactly what happened.

But a positive thing with this night was also that I could fall asleep soundly in this posture which means that I have got better at relaxing my mind and body, which can be used for my self-induced insomnia nights.

What I did to relax was to imagine walking through my school and meeting my idols: Eckhart Tolle , Tyler RSD, Morpheus etc. And they all told me to relax and that I was dreaming. I didn't got far, I fell asleep almost as soon as I entered the school. I am going to make a plan of visualization, so I can monitor how far I can come before falling asleep.

Sweet dreams!

Fell asleep by visualizing, I woke up in the middle of the night because of the posture, but all I wanted to do on the awakening was to change posture and fall asleep.

Tonight I will use an affirmation and repeat it over and over such as "When I wake up I lay still and am aware" and hopefully I can fall back to sleep in this posture.

Went to bed late after watching the world cup, incredible game! O. O

Then I went to bed and I have found a way to fall asleep at command, atleast for me. And that is to take deep breaths and imagine that you get more relaxed and sink as you exhale. And that you on each breath get more and more relaxed, so it amplifies each time. I fall asleep really fast by doing this. Might be useful later on when I experience insomnia etc.

I actually did woke up in the middle of the night again, and once again I had too low willpower to stay in the posture, it's like my body forces me to switch position before entering deep sleep.

If I look at this information: THE BRAIN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM

I see that sleep is more complex than one think, and that dreaming actually seems to occur when we are about to wake up.
A theory proposed by Jean-Pol Tassin:

Consciousness vanishes during sleep, yet dreams cannot exist unless we are conscious of them.

Right now I have a conclusion based on personal experience to the

Statement: Laying still and remaining aware is all that is needed in order to enter a dream consciously.

No it seems to be something else needed, such as a different state of mind.
And even if the statement was in theory correct. If one manages to lay still for a long period of time (+3 hours) and remain aware one would be able to enter a dream consciously. Well that is not very practical, to WILD at bedtime. It is a fun exercise, and could be accomplished if one is sleep/ REM-deprived, or as we might see in the future, if a person is able to attain a different state of mind quickly perhaps. But for now I leave the extreme.

Now I am not going to make more statements, but continue to ask questions:

I will continue with my Exploration 3: (Observing) What happens during deep sleep?

But my method now will be more simple:

Go to bed, fall asleep in a comfortable posture with an alarm to wake me up 90 min later, observe the state of mind and get into the half-sitting posture and attempt to WILD from here.

My extreme attempts still has value, because I have found a way to remain aware, but also to relax deeply at command.
And I have also practised to endure the extreme relaxations sensations, emotions and urges.

Cya tomorrow!

Then I went to bed and I have found a way to fall asleep at command, atleast for me. And that is to take deep breaths and imagine that you ge more relaxed and sink as you exhale. And that you on each breath get more and more relax, so it amplifies each time. I fall asleep really fast by doing this. Might be useful later on when I experience insomnia etc.

This is precisely my "sleep power dive" that I also "discovered." For particularly tough back-to-sleep scenarios I add a mentally verbalized "self-hypnosis" track describing the process: "on each exhale, you become more and more relaxed, you sink deeper and deeper and you drift farther and farther away, more and more relaxed, deeper, deeper, farther, farther, <etc., repeat>"

Nice FryingMan! Yeah I got it from guided sleep hypnosis audio. Each time they told me to do that I fell asleep in a blink.

It annoyed me then, but now I can use it as a sleep inducing tool.

I would like to say that, this is one of the best threads here on dreamviews for sure. Very inspiring indeed. I just feel like contribute to this thread a little since this is pretty much what I think dreamviews should be all about when it comes to dreaming.

Trial and error, for the win!

So, I have had the same kind of approach as you for some time now MasterMind. To try to fall asleep consciously. I haven't done this every night though. Since I usually just get 5-6 hours during my working days. But for those nights when I have trying to fall asleep consciously, I have notice this.

1:Itching body/warm and a really bad need for moving.

Sometimes during this process, I have got an instant transition into a perfectly calm state where all these annoying symptoms are just gone. And then I feel like Im completely lost in my head fully aware that Im still in bed. And then my heart starts to go from slow beats to fast beats and I really struggling to keep my eyes closed, since they are flickering so much. And at that point were my eyes are going crazy, that's the point were I fail. Because I also feel my body getting more tense, so I always try to relax it during these intense moments. But havent manage to do it good enough yet.


I have noticed that the itching part of this is more of an mental state of impatient to the process of lying still, rather than someting that needs to be. In my last try to fall asleep counscious (aka WILDing). I lay still for an hour without the slightest noticing of any itching or urge to move. And before that attempt, I was not having any expectations in my mind at all. And I believe that, that was what helped me to not get restless at all. So to be goal driven during the actuall practice is something one have to let go of, to achive a goal in the end I believe.

Well Good luck to you MasterMind, and keep up the good work!

I wouldn't say that this is one of the best threads on DV until we see some results in the form of lucids. So far it is interesting, but has proved... Non lucid. No offense master.

I wouldn't say that this is one of the best threads on DV until we see some results in the form of lucids. So far it is interesting, but has proved... Non lucid. No offense master.

Hehe, well I would like to add that it is all the trial and errors that get us on the way we want. So no misstakes= no understanding, pretty much so.

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

Hehe, well I would like to add that it is all the trial and errors that get us on the way we want. So no misstakes= no understanding, pretty much so.

I wouldn't say that trial and error is the only way to get on. A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from every one else's mistakes.

I am not calling mastermind a fool, but I am saying that this is interesting, but so far has left us with no way to get lucid. Interesting, but not yet anything helpful for us. Helpful for mastermind, maybe. As they say though, the proof is in the pudding. We shall see if he makes us some pudding.

Also, there are a lot of "wrong ways" to go, it is better to study the right way rather than studying all the wrong ways. Trial and error works good, but it is not the only way.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.” - Plato

I used to speak alot, and write to newbies and delude myself that I knew more about lucid dreaming than I actually did.

The reason to why I created this thread was to get completely naked and show that what I write here is what I think and know for myself because of experience.

But of course I also want to show for myself and other people that just because you fail it doesn't mean it's a failure.

And that when you fail, you learn and when you learn you improve and continue to progress.

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool" - Shakespeare

But make no misstake, don't learn from me, because you can't. Knowledge is personal. So only get inspired to take your own journey.

I am an extremist in everything I do, and what I get taught over and over again by life, is that everything needs balance.
So to only learn from other or to only learn on your own is equally bad.

I used to be on the "Only learn from others! Find the method that works for us all!" side of the scale.
This thread was my attempt to tip the scale and move over to "Only learn yourself! Fiind your OWN personal method!" side.

I am doing this to get an idea of both sides and to find the balance.

At the moment I think this balance is reached by following the collected information about sleep and dreams on the forum DILD, WILD, WBTB, Science of sleep etc. But to challenge the beliefs about the impossible in order to reach the highest possible.

For example I have found a way (FOR ME) to remain aware no matter how sleep deprived or tired I might be, and this method is obviously very useful during a WBTB as well. Among other things!

What I am doing is to knowingly make myself experience adversity, in order to learn from it.

Why? Because I learned this from picking up chicks.

If you are concerned with how your hair looks while talking to girls, mess it up on purpose, wear ugly clothes and make sure that you never again will be troubled by your looks. They should like you for your social skills and who you are, not how you look.

If you are concerned with falling asleep unconsciously during your WILD attempts in the night, then do your attempts on purpose in the worst conditions, when you are super tired in the beginning of the night and never again be troubled by what state of mind you are in.
You should be able to stay aware because of skill and because you know how, not because it is the perfect timing in the night.

Cya tomorrow.

Sensei: I freaking love pudding!

MasterMind: It's awesome that you take your own path in your Lucid dreaming, I think everyone should try to do that when they got the basic of lucid dreaming. Well I think everyone can pick up some advice from your experiments here, and I will continue to follow this thread with excitement!

C ya guys!

Mastermind.

I don't know if you are calling me a fool or not, but I speak from my own experience and the experience of those I trust to be true. I try not to spout out long "popular ideas" about LDing, but I try to find "common truths that connects to every LDer."

You edited your post. I believe very much that you need to find your own way to LD, but as you say, you need to find a balance. Some of what you were saying seems to contradict this, but some fundamentals and original knowledge needs to be had. Some original teacher. However, every single master has his own way of LDing.

The big reason that I like this thread is because you are taking something that we all know is possible but difficult, and saying "f you" to the norm. You are using your own experience and theories to complete this. I wouldn't call it "best" I would call it "worthwhile".

Didn't mean to close thread. My phone accidentally hit that button. :/ sorry for the inconvenience.