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    Thread: WILD - The Stable Way to Learn It

    1. #1
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      WILD - The Stable Way to Learn It

      WARNING! This is going to be a big rant on the regular joe lucid dreaming approach. Read with care.

      Hey!

      Today I am going to share a way to destroy the biggest obstacle to lucid dreaming that exists.

      I also want to note that it's also the biggest problem to happy relationships or even a happy singlelife.

      It's starts to sound like a riddle, and in a way it is, a riddle some people live their lives by every single day and if they don't solve it they end up unhappy.

      If you feel offended I am sorry, I am simply talking about myself.

      So what is it that creates major problems in lucid dreaming, realtionships and singlelife?

      Dependence.

      In some relationships the couple gets so dependent on each other and needy for it to work, otherwise they can't feel like they are enough.
      In the singlelife or everyday life in general we may not dare to express ourselves independently and therefore we are dependent on other peoples opinion of us.

      And lucid dreaming we are dependent on methods and when we surrender completely to it and give methods and theory power over us we lose faith over our own ability.

      Tim Post told me this long time ago but I didn't listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaho...1F6F1E&index=6

      The lucid dreaming community have somehow made the techniques use us rather than the other way around.
      Just like the clothing industry. And well I am not blaming anyone except myself, because I should use my own brain.

      So now I am going to make an attempt to unlearn what I have learned (Atleast everything that isn't fully based on personal experience.)

      I used to help beginners by saying, sleep paralysis isn't what to strive for, it happens already when we are asleep, or don't focus on your body your awareness goes where your awareness is directed, or wake up several times and your aminergic system of the brain will be more active which makes your critical system in the brain mor active which will make you more likely to have lucid dreams and so on.

      And I am going to go totally naked now and say that, yes those theories are based on a little personal experience from me, but FAR from enough to make it valid. And all of it is actually just me repeating theories from another source such as: Michael Raduga, Robert Monroe, Lucidology 101.

      I am going to be honest to myself now and say "I SUCK SH*T AND I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT LUCID DREAMING" not going to write to beginners needing help, feeding my lucid dreaming knowledge ego, because that is basically what I did.

      The reason I am doing this complete turn around is because this exact mindset helped my dating life, instead of thinking of what to say and analyzing how women think, I just thought "I am enough, I am a dorky, nerdy overthinker but what ever that happens I am enough."

      And this is the opposite of being dependent, being FREE!

      Free of the burden of finding the perfect method on the internet, free of the burden of learning a new theory, free of the burden of buying books, free of the burden of learning the step by step process of another person. I am free to learn on my own!

      So what am I going to do now? I got the free will to do anything I want, so I am going to decide exactly what I want without any boundary of some theory telling me it's not possible or too difficult.

      I want to learn to lucid dream at will, every night and I want to enter the dream without losing consciousness inbetween.

      In order to find out how to do this, I am going to ask some questions.

      Exploration 1:

      What happens if I lay still on my back for 20 minutes with closed eyes?

      From now on I will make lucid dreaming not a practise, but an exploration. I will find my own truths and my own answers.

      I wish for you to do the same.

      The reason I wrote this is to encourage the people that right now read a guide over and over and wonder why it isn't working for them, and make them realise that they don't need anything except their own curiosity.

      I hope for them to find their freedom.

      Bye for now!
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    2. #2
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      I'm up for it.
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      Exploration 1:

      What happens if I lay still on my back for 20 minutes with closed eyes?

      That is what I want to know right now. I kind of need a bigger question though.
      And instead of a question, a statement might be more effective, just like you do in an essay I need to narrow it down.

      Statement: Laying still and remaining aware is all that is needed in order to enter a dream consciously.

      Exploration 1: What happens if I lay still on my back for 20 minutes with closed eyes?

      Method of Exploration 1: I set a timer for 21 min, 1 minute to prepare, 20 minutes to observe. I had two pillows behind my head and I lay on my back.

      Result of Exploration 1 , Night 1: Before the 21 minutes I made a note about how my body felt. It was tensed up, I had been to the gym. My lower back had some pain and I was very aware of my body. During this exploration I was not daydreaming, instead I was focusing on my body feeling it's changes. After about 3 minutes my feet started to tingle and it felt like the wave you feel when you don't get enough blood, or when, as the expression goes, a part of your body falls asleep.
      I felt a slight tingle on the side of my elbows as well. Then I blacked out completely and the next thing I know I woke up to the sound of my 21minute alarm.
      When I woke up I wrote some notes down about how I felt. I woke up with a relaxed body, less aware of how it felt, still very aware of it though, but less than before.
      My mind was also much calmer and rested.

      Tonight I am going to keep my mind active by daydreaming and thinking and see if I black out as quickly again or if I can stretch the length of my awareness.

      I am still on Exploration 1 and haven't been still and aware for 20 min on my back, so I can't make any conclusion about it yet.
      Instead I have encountered a problem, and by solving this problem I can reach a better understanding about my Exploration 1 and get closer to find an answer to my statement.
      Last edited by MasterMind; 06-19-2014 at 07:51 AM.
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    4. #4
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      Why are you carrying out these explorations first thing at night?
      MasterMind likes this.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
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      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    5. #5
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      Because I can! Why aren't you?
      Last edited by MasterMind; 06-19-2014 at 09:55 AM.

    6. #6
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      To enter a a dream then could take 90 minutes, not 20.
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      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
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      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    7. #7
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      I am aware of that, that idea is based on REM sleep and how the brain functions.

      And even though my end goal is to lucid dream at will, my goal right now is to focus on something I can control the result of, and that is to simply observe the process of falling asleep consciously.

      That is why it doesn't bother me to do it on my bedtime.

    8. #8
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      I like this notion. I think though that beginners benefit from some direction to give them some basis for kickstarting the entire process. I realized early on that only I can affect my dreaming results and drive my progress forwards. Initially I needed to overcome middle of the night insomnia, and I have largely accomplished that goal, leading to greatly increased confidence in my ability to "fix" things myself. Curiosity, discipline, and an urge for self-discovery about the sleep and dreaming process is critical.
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      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
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      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ctharlhie View Post
      To enter a a dream then could take 90 minutes, not 20.
      That's for REM dreaming, which is not the only kind of dreaming there is. And that's a "typical", variance circumstances (sleep deprivation) could probably produce much sooner REM.

      When I was doing a lot of WILD attempts (and I don't think I've ever succeeded), I became so attuned to watching for the transition into sleep that I actually couldn't sleep well for a while, even after I stopped conscious attempts. Every time the transition started I would jerk awake, it was actually really annoying! That faded eventually after stopping the WILD attempts.

      But that's an interesting approach, "catching" the transition, I've seen Hukif write about this proposing it ("TILD") as another possibility of LDing.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

    10. #10
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      I'm not actually as deadset against bedtime WILDs as many DVers, one of my friends IRL finds it's the only way he can LD. I just think that it is a deceptive and painful route. Deceptive because there is more hypnagogic imagery when falling asleep at bedtime that can create an illusion of progress.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
      Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA
      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    11. #11
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      There is also lots of theories out there, creating illusions of facts. My friend for example who don't even know about lucid dreaming told me about an experience where he couldn't fall asleep. But he somehow believed that the only way for him to fall asleep was to stay still and not move, because if he moved he would have to start over again, so he daydreamed and observed his thoughts and then he became aware of not feeling his breath anymore and he got really scared, then he levitated through the ceiling, going through all the floors of his appartment and he thought he was going to die.

      This is all cool and interesting right? However it doesn't mean sh*t for any of us, since it's just his experience.

      In the same way the idea that WILD would be harder on bedtime also doesn't mean sh*t because it's not my experience either.

      For all of you people writing your personal experiences, I thank you. However it doesn't interests me because right now I have basically decided to become totally new, unlearn everything I have learned about lucid dreaming. And just explore the art of falling asleep consciously.
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    12. #12
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      Good plan, I think, Mastermind, I have a feeling it will work for you. But:

      Quote Originally Posted by MasterMind View Post
      ... because right now I have basically decided to become totally new, unlearn everything I have learned about lucid dreaming. And just explore the art of falling asleep consciously.
      Must you really unlearn everything? Since you have had quite a bit of success with LD'ing, and your experienced-based skills are high, is it wise to abandon all that? Sure, there is plenty of reason to avoid crowded or misleading techniques (as a matter of fact, if you look at my WILD class at DVA, it's more anti-technique than technique), but should you avoid what already works for you?

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      I still got lots of skills and abiltiies developed from my years of practise, such as: Concentration, I can meditate for long periods of time. I have a more focused mind, less negative thoughts, more process-oriented, more humble appreciation for the journey of progression itself, relaying on things within my control and not results etc.

      And don't worry I haven't forgot everything I have learned and in a way I am still on my old path, and it will surely affect the way I think and act.
      However this idea of a new start is something very motivating to me, and also a reminder that I should think for myself and not be a sheep to gurus.

      What motivated me to change my perspective on the lucid dreaming mindset was my dating life. Every night I go to a club, even though I have approached hundreds of girls, I still have to re-learn and repeat the process. I ignored this for a while though because it was going really well, but then one night I went to the club thinking "I am the boss, I can make any girl mine!" and suddenly I had built up a pick up ego, not respecting the process of socialising and weirded people out.

      I then looked at my lucid dreaming practise and realized that I had kind of done the same thing here, thinking I am a wise, experienced lucid dreamer writing my opinions to people, but I had lost my actual ability to lucid dream.
      So now I have decided to lose my ego and become a beginner again, just like I did in my pick up and found a stable robust structure.

      I am going to focus on WILD now.

      But first I need to understand the actual process of falling asleep consciously, because right now I don't.

      I also like to be somewhat of a rebel trying the impossible, because that is what made me do most of the things I do in life such as:

      Lucid dreaming - Most people said it was a waste of time because it was impossible, then it's easier to play videogames.
      Cold Approach Pickup - Most people said (and are still saying) that walking up to random girls and getting a date is impossible.
      Meditation - Oh that is just spiritual none sense, it can't possibly make any difference to just sit doing nothing every day.

      And I always say think the same thing: "Ah yeah? Watch me. Everything is impossible until someone does it"
      Last edited by MasterMind; 06-19-2014 at 08:12 PM.
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      Subconscious Thoughts

      Method of Exploration 1:

      I set a timer for 21 min, 1 minute to prepare, 20 minutes to observe. I had two pillows behind my head and I lay on my back. This time my focus was on daydreaming and thinking.

      Result of Exploration 1 , Night 2:

      Before the 20 min: Tensed up legs (muscle soreness), unfocused tired mind.

      During 20 min: I started out by not focusing on my body at all, I was just thinking and thinking and thinking. First I thought about my dating life, I had been flakead by some gilr (cancelling date) and another girl I texted then instead was really late on answering and I had just heard a speech from Tyler RSD how you in the beginning behave like a girl's friend and they don't see you sexual in anyway, blablabla. I realized then that stuff I worried about before such as meeting other girls at the same time, is irrational because society teaches us that we should be nice, available and treat girls like a princess. But what they actually respond to is a completly different behavior. This it totally off-topic but as you can see analysing just a single problem as my mind becomes calmer and calmer makes the time fly by and also makes me look on the problem much more lightly. I was thinking lots of stuff, another thing I was pondering was the idea of doing this thinking and every once in a while stop and do a reality check, but without moving, so how do you do that? I thought about this for a while and some weird ideas such as "Imagining plugging your nose", but the best I coul come up with was to imagine your hands being clasped or your legs being crossed, and when you could feel that actually happening even though you are in reality in a complete different posture, well then you basically have a phantom or dream body to work with. Might try this out in the future, right now I have to focus on mantaining awareness some more.

      After the 20 min: I woke up from my thoughts when the alarm sounded. However I was not as aware of the thoughts as I was in the beginning but I was also not totally unaware of them. It was like waking up from a dream, but instead it was just subconscious thoughts.
      I was now totally relaxed, my legs felt normal and my mind was really alert. I was also slightly more unaware of my body.

      This is was just the first 20 minutes of my night, but even though my exploration 1 was over I pushed my limits further by continuing to lay still.

      I remember feeling really warm and sweaty and eventually falling asleep.

      Then something very interesting happened. I woke up 01:32, 07:19, 8:17 and 09:46 remembering lots of dreams and I even had a lucid dream!
      (See my Dream Journal)

      Which reminded me of a thought I had a year ago while attempting something like this: "WILD is the most effective way to DILD"

      Because you end up more aware in your dreams compared to just fall asleep normally.

      If this is true or not I am not sure of just yet, but it is going in that direction. This means that I just have to continue to focus on my direct entry which will make me more aware in general and then the indirect awareness is just a natural consequence.

      Sorry I just can't help it, but this reminds me of pick up, by choosing the path by hitting on girls directly, I do what 1% of guys doesn't dare to do which will make me more confident and cool in general and then the indirect attractiveness is just a natural consequence.

      If you want to become aware of your dreams, learn about awareness in general!
      If you want a specific girl to become your girlfriend, learn to get good with girls in general!

      Oh I am getting kind of carried away here, but this was an intense night.

      This is just one night so I can't make any conclusions yet, but I am very motivated to continue my exploring!

      Tonight I am celebrating something called "midsummer" in Sweden, it's basically a night where we drink alot and welcome the summer.

      So I will see what kind of mindstate I will be in tonight, but if possible I will still try to fall asleep consciously.
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    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by MasterMind View Post
      Then something very interesting happened. I woke up 01:32, 07:19, 8:17 and 09:46 remembering lots of dreams and I even had a lucid dream!
      (See my Dream Journal)

      Which reminded me of a thought I had a year ago while attempting something like this: "WILD is the most effective way to DILD"

      Because you end up more aware in your dreams compared to just fall asleep normally.
      So true!
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      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
      Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA
      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    16. #16
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      Problem Number 1: Mantaining Awareness

      The first problem I run into while attempting to do this, is to remain aware while I am exploring the first stages of the night. Since there isn't much to do while I am just laying in my bed, the default is to just fall asleep unconsciously. I have tried day day dreaming, but what happens most of the time is that the thoughts get so weird that eventually they don't even make sense and it's hard to really focus without a clear goal in mind. So I thought about some new ways to mantain my awareness, and what I am going to test out now, is to use the breath as something to play around with as I just wait for the time to go by.

      My indirect goal is to get a DILD by using the WILD process as a ritual for falling asleep.

      But my real goal is to just find out if the following statement is true or false "Laying still and remaining aware is all that is needed in order to enter a dream consciously."

      I'll share my result afterwards.

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by MasterMind View Post
      my real goal is to just find out if the following statement is true or false "Laying still and (falling asleep whilst) remaining aware is all that is needed in order to enter a dream consciously."
      If all you had to was lay still and remain aware WILD would be as easy as breathing... Oh, wait.
      MasterMind likes this.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
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      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    18. #18
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      I tried the Hansa Breath Method. It means that each time you feel like you are losing concentration, you take a fast sniffing breath, but not too big breath and not too small of a breath. This was supposed to keep me aware, and once again I have only tried it one night so I can't make any conclusions. However this night I just clicked out.
      Although I am thinking since it is really difficult to find a way to mantain awareness upon bedtime, since your mind is really exhausted.

      If I manage to do it even once, then that method is suitable for me and effective in itself.

      Right now I just want to cycle through different ways of doing it to see what suits me best.

      The anchors I have used so far are: Day dreams, Awareness of the breath and tonight I will try to use audio and use listening awareness as my anchor.
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    19. #19
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      Just another idea for a successful anchor, in this description of a WILD Billybob focused on the back of his head as an anchor: http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...sful-wild.html

      ((If you're not already familiar with his stuff, Billubob introduced the idea of the anchor on these forums))
      MasterMind likes this.
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      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    20. #20
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      Thanks for the tip will try that as well!

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      Here is the exploration I have done so far and the problems that have been arising:

      I wanted to find out if laying still with closed, remaining aware and just waiting is all that is needed in order to enter a dream consciously.
      But at bedtime the remaining aware part was really difficult because no matter what anchor I used (I have tried daydreaming, focusing on the breath and listening to audio), but I still clicked out to unconscious sleep from nowhere. So apparently that is the default or atleast very likely.
      Tonight I will try something new and this time I am not going to use an anchor to remain aware, I am going to use the body itself.

      In my experiments I have been laying on my back flat, because I had read that it is harder to fall asleep in that posture. Well for me that apparently wasn't the case...
      So tonight I will go even more extreme and sleep in a sitting position, in my bed though. And I'll see how that affects my ability to remain aware. I will not use any anchor at all (well day-dreaing by default) but I really want to see what happens in this posture.

      If this posture makes me unable to fall asleep, PERFECT then the solution is found and the journey can continue.

      If you think this is extreme, remember I am only doing it because it's fun, and I really want to see if I can find a way to fall asleep consciously at bedtime. But when I wake up in the middle of the night I still do the regular approach of WBTB, DILD, DEILD.

      Wish me luck and sweet dreams to you!

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      I went to bed very late, for some reason I wasted my time in front of the computer reading ebooks instead of going to bed. I just didn't feel like sleeping, even though I was really tired.I was in bed around 00:19, "Perfect circumstances to really test effectiveness of the new posture" I thought.

      And well as most nights I clicked out fairly quickly to unconscious sleep. However! This time in this posture I wasn't able to fall asleep as deeply, I fell asleep and woke up in the middle of the night, but I sort of felt like I hadn't been asleep for long. And my reflex was to just think "Oh I clicked out for a bit, I better get back to sleep."

      If my awakening is for example 40-90 minutes after going to sleep, then this is almost like a perfect window for a diret entry or even just an indirect entry.

      If I want to do it direct, I need to endure some discomfort or find a really good anchor. If I want to do it indirect I just need to fall back to sleep.

      And this night I did it indirectly because when I woke up lucid dreaming wasn't even on my mind.

      I was very aware of my dreams, not lucid but I remembered alot and had very vivid dreams.

      So tonight I will do the exact same thing, because I think I am onto something here. And then if this uncomfortable awakening happens again, my goal will be to check the time!

      If this posture makes me wake up I have an alarm free WBTB, and if this posture keeps me aware I can practise my before bed WILD routine.

      The posture sort of solved the remaining aware part, or atleast it's a good step on the way.

      Cya tomorrow!
      Last edited by MasterMind; 06-28-2014 at 10:28 AM.

    23. #23
      Lucid Elder God Achievements:
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      Sleep yogis fall asleep in a seated position.

      Interesting findings
      MasterMind and Csarks like this.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
      Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA
      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    24. #24
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      !!! Always when I try to find something new and original it turns out some Asian sleep yoga monk did it before me!

      Well I guess it's good to find it on my own first though.

      Or maybe... I was a monk in a previous life.
      Mzzkc likes this.

    25. #25
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      This is the best thread I've seen in a long while. =)

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