Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

Hi Sageous,

I’m a bit confused about 2 things:

1. You say that if you practice RCs and RRCs properly during the day, you may not even need them in the dream. Why is this exactly? Is it because when you do them regularly, you develop some kind of ‘mindset’ that helps with lucidity? I understand that expectation and having LDing on your mind plays a part, as you said, but I’m not really sure why it is that you can often become lucid without ever needing them in dreams (particularly RCs).

2. You say that self-awareness helps with lucidity because it helps you to realize that you are connected with your (dream) world and that it is “you” or a creation of you. I’m not sure I understand this, or why exactly this helps you with lucidity (if this mindset begins to accompany you in your dreams)….

For example: I had a very vivid NLD once where I was walking around my house. What was unique about this dream was that I fully knew where I was (minutes ago), I was thinking about what I was going to do later, I even had a full sense of what time and day it was! It genuinely felt as if I was awake and just going about a regular day! The only thing I didn’t know, was that I was dreaming! But the thing is, I’m not sure how being highly self-aware would’ve helped to realize I was dreaming that time. Or if I had even taken a moment to do an RRC, I probably still wouldn’t have thought it was a dream. So I’m not really sure how or why it helps to feel 'connected' with your reality.

Thanks in advance

Originally Posted by Eamo24

1. You say that if you practice RCs and RRCs properly during the day, you may not even need them in the dream. Why is this exactly? Is it because when you do them regularly, you develop some kind of ‘mindset’ that helps with lucidity? I understand that expectation and having LDing on your mind plays a part, as you said, but I’m not really sure why it is that you can often become lucid without ever needing them in dreams (particularly RCs).

The same goes for regular RC's, BTW. I believe the practice of these things has more to do with daytime mental prep than they do with developing a "thing you can do during a NLD to make you lucid."

Why? Well, yes, doing RC's and RRC's with regularity and sincerity will indeed have an effect on your mindset, and that mindset will follow you into the dream. The often overlooked irony of RC's is that you do not use them until after you realize you are dreaming, pretty much in every case. Their real value as a LD'ing tool is to get your head in a place that is prepared to ask the question, "Is this a dream?" or to notice the odd, and then to confirm that you are dreaming. RRC's are similar in that regard, though their value is less on confirming that you are lucid than they are in helping you to more deeply appreciate that lucidity, and get more out of the LD itself -- which is why it's important to practice both.

2. You say that self-awareness helps with lucidity because it helps you to realize that you are connected with your (dream) world and that it is “you” or a creation of you. I’m not sure I understand this, or why exactly this helps you with lucidity (if this mindset begins to accompany you in your dreams)….

I don't just say it, Eamo, it's true!

Self-awareness equals lucidity, as I've said many times, so anything you do to improve your sense of self will also improve your lucidity. The RRC's specific goal of wondering about your interaction with reality is very helpful toward doing what you said -- elevating your sense that this dream is really you, and therefore, as a part of you, you are limited only by your imagination as to what you can do here. But that is only a part of the whole picture, as self-awareness is how you realize that you are dreaming, the very source of your lucidity. When you are self-aware, you are also able to better access memory, so achieving your goals is much easier as well.

For example: I had a very vivid NLD once where I was walking around my house. What was unique about this dream was that I fully knew where I was (minutes ago), I was thinking about what I was going to do later, I even had a full sense of what time and day it was! It genuinely felt as if I was awake and just going about a regular day! The only thing I didn’t know, was that I was dreaming! But the thing is, I’m not sure how being highly self-aware would’ve helped to realize I was dreaming that time. Or if I had even taken a moment to do an RRC, I probably still wouldn’t have thought it was a dream. So I’m not really sure how or why it helps to feel 'connected' with your reality.

I think I mentioned this myself in one of those very long posts above, but yes, the regular practice of RRC's (& RC's) can lead to non-lucid dreams based on the day residue of doing them, and also on your expectations of maybe doing one in the dream to "make me lucid." It is very possible, and I think fairly common, to have a NLD about being lucid, or about doing RC's or RRC's. And yes indeed, if you have a level of self-awareness on hand when this happens, you will know that you are dreaming, because you will have the sense to actually remember that your actual body is asleep somewhere else, and to recognize the significance of this. Also, if self-aware, you will have the sense to test the "reality" of the RRC you are doing in the dream, and say, "Hey, wait a minute, that is not where I was a few minutes ago, because I'm in bed asleep; this is a dream!" Also, the reason you must truly wonder about the answers to those questions in a RRC, to not just state where you were, where you are, and where you will be, is because it helps develop that mindset that understands where you really are right now.

I know that sounds simplistic, but it is that simple, Eamo. Self-awareness is a solid connection to your "actual" state of being, and if you are making that connection in a dream, you will have no trouble recognizing where and who you really are. You will likely still have NLD's about LD'ing, that's pretty much unavoidable -- I still have them myself. But strong self-awareness will allow you to confirm that you are dreaming (or not), simply because you are much more aware of your true place in the moment.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I would bet you already can LD on the nights when you really want to. The real question is what defines "really want to?" Sure, you feel like you really want to all the time, but are you timing your attempts properly every night? Are you avoiding REM/focus blockers like too much alcohol or not enough sleep every night? Are you honestly doing mental prep every night, including tending to the other fundamentals, namely memory and expectation/intention? Now reverse all those questions, and ask yourself if you really failed to have LD's after properly, completely preparing yourself.

One key facet of excellent self-awareness is that you come to terms with the rest of the stuff that must be done to successfully LD, and you do them rather than make excuses or figure you can get away with one more drink, or think about tomorrow's problems during a WILD dive.

Excellent points, all. And you make a really intriguing point at the start that I'm still digesting (I have long wondered at the effectiveness of the "competition effect" in producing LDs, and wondered about how to recreate that). Your call to honestly self-evaluate sounds a great deal (exactly?) like how I respond to the frequent "I can't lucid dream no matter what I do!" threads, so touché.

I'd like to think that I can honestly self-evaluate my LD practice. I already have recognized that I've been neglecting my night practice, but I have not yet perhaps fully honestly acknowledged the consequences of this (LDs hover around 6/month), and have not resolved to really fix it yet.

And I don't want to divert the thread into "FryingMan seeks diagnosis on his lucid dreaming practice" so I'll take that to PM.

Great points Sageous !
OK now I get it, really! I've been trying to dig too Mich in technicalities that I've dug my own hole to fall into.

Soooooooo the point is, we want to become more self aware because that leads to being self aware in dream, which means lucid dreams.

Second, RRC isn't a technique, it helps us training being more self aware.

Third, self awareness is not a technique, it IS lucidity. Having a moment of it in a dream equals lucidity.

Finally, the questions used during RRC are only intended to make us have that wondering moment which makes us self aware.

OK now that I got it(I did right?), I'll be doing RRCs with no worries. I hope I do good. What I should do is wonder about me being here effecting my environment and how it affects me, how my thoughts and feelings control and drive me, and how my environment and actions control and drive them.
This will increase my self awareness to a point were it will be hovering with me even if I'm not directly doing a RRC at the moment. Does it become easier and more 'automatic' (without direct conscious effort) with practice? Like, does it become an unconscious thing or does it always require conscious effort, even if that conscious effort was 'automatic' due to practice?
Oh boy I'm so excited, but I'm worried that this wondering I'm having during RRC becomes, well boring, and that I'd start doing it half minded. Kinda like RCs, I can't do them with excitement anymore because they're too much of a chore now.

Thank you very much for your time Sageous! This is truly useful to me.
But why don't all the LDing scientists like Laberge and the others talk about this?

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Soooooooo the point is, we want to become more self aware because that leads to being self aware in dream, which means lucid dreams.

Close enough. It's more that we want to be more familiar with our self-awareness, with our Self, so that we are more comfortable being self-aware in waking-life and in dreams. So yes, if you are more easily self-aware, more comfortable with the condition, then it will likely occur during a dream. And if someday far from now you are often and easily self-aware, LD'ing will be easy, perhaps unavoidable.

Second, RRC isn't a technique, it helps us training being more self aware.

Actually, it "technically" is a technique, though the activity is a bit more nebulous than most techniques.
Thinking it is not one is fine, however, because maybe it will help it be less tedious, and more real.

Third, self awareness is not a technique, it IS lucidity. Having a moment of it in a dream equals lucidity.

Yes, but I would have listed that first.

Finally, the questions used during RRC are only intended to make us have that wondering moment which makes us self aware.

Yes.

OK now that I got it(I did right?), I'll be doing RRCs with no worries. I hope I do good. What I should do is wonder about me being here effecting my environment and how it affects me, how my thoughts and feelings control and drive me, and how my environment and actions control and drive them.

Not so much "control and drive." Try to wonder more about your interaction with your local reality than your being in thrall to it.

If you start thinking about control and drive, then you start being impressed by things much bigger than you (even your emotions, if you go there), and then proceed to diminish the presence of your Self in all this which, come dreamtime, is exactly what you do not want to do (my problem with ADA, BTW): you want to remember in a dream that everything is you, and not some external force controlling or overpowering you (the general feeling in a NLD).

This will increase my self awareness to a point were it will be hovering with me even if I'm not directly doing a RRC at the moment. Does it become easier and more 'automatic' (without direct conscious effort) with practice? Like, does it become an unconscious thing or does it always require conscious effort, even if that conscious effort was 'automatic' due to practice?

It definitely should eventually become easier, though "automatic" and "self-aware" are probably contradictory terms. So are "self-aware" and "unconscious," for that matter. You will always need some conscious effort to gather self-awareness, but with time that effort will likely not require something like a RRC, but perhaps just a quiet pause, or even a simple decision to be self-aware.

Oh boy I'm so excited, but I'm worried that this wondering I'm having during RRC becomes, well boring, and that I'd start doing it half minded. Kinda like RCs, I can't do them with excitement anymore because they're too much of a chore now.

If doing RRC's become boring, you are doing them wrong. Every RRC ought to be something new, and hopefully at least a little interesting. If you find yourself doing a rote program of asking and answering specific questions with no sense of wonder, then stop doing them -- they aren't helping anyway.

You also should temper your excitement with patience, Louai. Excitement is a good thing, because it builds expectation and keeps you focused, but it also tends to lead to disappointment. This is especially true with a difficult long-term project like building self-awareness. Give this stuff time. With regular -- sincere! -- RRC's and RC's, you might start seeing some results sometime soon, but those results are incremental and, because of the nature of self-awareness, will likely seem fairly unimpressive (i.e., your LD'ing frequency will improve, but you will be saying "of course there are more of them," instead of "I can't believe how many LD's I'm having now!"). And don't forget all the other stuff, like working on memory and expectation/intention!

But why don't all the LDing scientists like Laberge and the others talk about this?

Actually they do. If you look carefully, you will see that EWOLD is full of references to self-awareness, and LaBerge goes on about it relentlessly at his dream camps. He might not mention a RRC because he never thought of it, but that's neither here nor there.

I think scientists are reluctant to speak frankly about self-awareness because it is a very unscientific trait. It can't be empirically defined or tested, and there is no self-awareness center in the brain (as far as they know). So they skirt the issue, and focus on techniques (like the RC, and MILD; both LaBerge's) that have more concrete goal on their face* but actually are meant to stir nebulous things like self-awareness and memory.

So yes, Louai, you do seem to get it. Now you just need to hold onto it for a while, patiently.


*LaBerge advertises RC's as a thing you do during the day so that during a NLD you might do one and become lucid, but he understands that that rarely works. He knows that the real value of state testing is to create a routine that brings you closer to understanding your state (aka: self-awareness) more often -- especially after, based on expectation and your MILD work, you think you are dreaming.

Thank you for the great help you gave me! It's a load off my chest, so now I can really build my self awareness without that annoying voice in the back of my head(god I am so critical!).
Now I'll continue my RRC practice. As a note, I get a feeling of "thing is an interesting new thing to be pondering about" with a little pinche of wow with it while doing a RRC, and I defiantly feel more aware of myself, yeah kinda like getting out of the "auto pilot" or "zombie" state.

Now that I got it right, I'll start teaching it to my more advanced students!

And I'll be defiantly patient, a lot! I'm ready to train for LDing for the rest of my life!
Thank you again

Hi,
I have a quick question about the timing for a WILD.
From what I understand it is best to start a few minutes before you normally would enter REM sleep.
You also recommended not using an alarm, this is not a problem for me because i find myself waking up at night all the time,
but here is my 'missing link': the natural awakenings you have during the night are at the end of a sleep cycle, this means when REM just ended,
so this would be like the worst possible time to start WILDing since I am at the point the furthest away from REM?
I hope you understand my question, maybe I can make it more concrete by adding real times:
I naturally wake up at 5 AM, so this would mean I have been dreaming from something like 4:30 till 5 AM, wouldnt this mean I would want to start wilding at 4:30?

P.S I have not had any succes with WILD so far.

edit: Sorry if this doesnt belong here, i thought i had posted in the Q & A of your course!

Sageous,

Originally Posted by Sageous

doing RC's and RRC's with regularity and sincerity will indeed have an effect on your mindset, and that mindset will follow you into the dream. The often overlooked irony of RC's is that you do not use them until after you realize you are dreaming, pretty much in every case. Their real value as a LD'ing tool is to get your head in a place that is prepared to ask the question, "Is this a dream?" or to notice the odd, and then to confirm that you are dreaming. RRC's are similar in that regard, though their value is less on confirming that you are lucid than they are in helping you to more deeply appreciate that lucidity, and get more out of the LD itself -- which is why it's important to practice both.

For daytime practice, I’ve began to do RCs more frequently and with more stability, however, when I try to include the RRC, things get a bit difficult…

Like with the RC, I would ask questions like, “where was I a few minutes ago? “Where am I now, what am I doing?” “What will I soon be doing?” etc., and I approach it with a mindset of trying to figure out if this is a dream or not.

The thing is, if I try to do a RRC, I find myself asking exactly the same questions, except with a mindset of trying to build self-awareness rather than trying to figure out if this is a dream. Sometimes it gets a bit confusing or muddled as to which one I’m even doing.

So I understand they’re different exercises completely, but the initial questions are same for both, I think. So I had the idea of using the RC as my main daytime practice, but keep the ‘wondering’ part of the RRC as something to do generally or whenever I think of it. Maybe this isn’t a good plan, but I’m not really sure how to formulate some kind of strategy that includes both without confusion. Would you have any sort of advice? Also, don’t RCs build self-awareness as well, and help with the mental prep required? But maybe just not to the same extent as the RRC…

Thanks for your help.

^^ I have a question for you, Eamo: Why are your RC's so complicated? A simple, sincere, check of your state should be all they entail. Specifically, just ask yourself "Is this a dream?" and then do your physical RC (i.e., check a clock, pinch your nose). Why ask the three "RRC" questions as well?

In asking those three questions you seem to be doing more of a RRC than a RC, so I can understand your confusion. I suggest that you go back to practicing a regular RC, and then the RRC will not seem redundant.

Your plan -- to use regular RC as daytime practice, with RRC's when remembered -- sounds fine, but again I suggest that you actually just do RC's without the questions.

Finally, RC's absolutely help with mental prep, and may even nudge your self-awareness along... but their purpose is to simply help you to confirm your state (dreaming or not); they are an excellent tool; so you might try not to complicate them.

I must also ask: Is someone teaching RC's with those three questions? If they are, I think they might be a little confused.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I must also ask: Is someone teaching RC's with those three questions? If they are, I think they might be a little confused.

If you're referring to the questions about where you've been, where you are, etc... that's a pretty common RC that's listed on internet tutorials (perhaps even on DV somewhere, I can't remember.) Specifically, it usually says to try to remember where you were an hour ago, and see if there are gaps in your memory.
I don't do this very often, but it has actually been helpful at times when something about the situation just doesn't seem right. I've questioned where I am / who I'm with, and found that DCs with roles of my family/friends were not actually people I knew. But I think that's really the only situation where this is helpful. And your mind can easily make up backstories to explain that stuff away, anyway.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I must also ask: Is someone teaching RC's with those three questions? If they are, I think they might be a little confused.

I've seen the terms "memory RC" and "mental RC" described before. I think the point is to engage the mind in seriously questioning one's state rather than making a quick physical gesture mindlessly and moving on.

Questions like "is this a dream?" can be answered with a quick, unthinking "no" (or even an unthinking "yes" and going on non-lucid!), while a question like "Why do I think I'm awake?" requires a more thorough engagement that isn't so easily dismissed by a monosyllabic answer.

^^ I think RC's are supposed to involve monosyllabic -- yes or no -- answers. You can certainly test your state sincerely and deeply without extensive questioning. The beauty of a state test lies in its simplicity: load the question, "Is this a dream?" and then answer that question with a simple test that will confirm that this is a dream, or reality. Asking further questions, like "Why do I think I'm awake?" steps well beyond the RC's purpose, and might complicate you right out of a successful RC.

I cannot argue with processes like "memory RC" or "mental RC," obviously, because they are very similar to my own RRC concept. But doing more, like a RRC, does not supercede the need for RC's; you still must do basic RC's to test your state, and have a simple, call it monosyllabic if you will, answer quickly and clearly available.

You still must be sincere when doing a RC, but there is no need to incorporate the RRC concept into your RC's. I can certainly argue for taking RRC moments and asking those questions, but I will always argue it assuming that RC's are a separate subject and will be done as well.

Sageous,

Originally Posted by Sageous

I have a question for you, Eamo: Why are your RC's so complicated? A simple, sincere, check of your state should be all they entail. Specifically, just ask yourself "Is this a dream?" and then do your physical RC (i.e., check a clock, pinch your nose). Why ask the three "RRC" questions as well?

I probably was putting too much into them. During a RC, I would ask those memory questions, but I would also look around for any hint that this may be a dream environment, like looking to see if objects change location or disappear (I thought this would be a good one as it happens a lot in my dreams). I would then go further with the questioning by asking what day it is, what time it is etc., and only then would I finish with some physical checks like looking at my hands or reading text etc……

I suppose it is a lot, but I was under the impression that reality checks were meant to be done in this way -- mindfully taking every aspect of your reality into account, and questioning things extensively. I thought it was important as it would instill within your RC’s more awareness and a better questioning mindset, which if performed in a dream, would be a lot more effective, and also because it might also increase your skills of being able to decipher which state you’re actually in, hence my rationale for including so much (I’ve actually missed many lucids from questioning things too narrowly). But you’re right, it’s definitely worth simplifying a bit (or a lot ).

So as for the RRC, I try to do it as well, just not as much as RC’s. But I’m still a bit unsure about some of the parts of it:

Firstly, what is the reason for asking the memory questions, in an attempt to increase your self-awareness? I thought self-awareness was about considering the effect you have on things and the effects things have on you. But why does this entail knowing where you just were and where you’ll soon be etc.?

Also, when considering your interaction, does it have to be the environment of now, or can it be things from other times -- like thinking about how your past actions have had effects on past events? Sometimes there isn’t a lot to work with in the ‘now’.

Also, I’m not really certain about what it means to consider things in your ‘immediate environment’, I mean, at times when there are no people around, do you consider how you affect the ‘things’ in your environment? Like objects etc. I’m not really sure what it involves.

Finally, I don’t really understand the part about considering the effects things have on you. Does this mean you should assess your reactions to things that are happening around you or things people say etc. even if it’s not really directed at you?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Eamo24

I probably was putting too much into them. During a RC, I would ask those memory questions, but I would also look around for any hint that this may be a dream environment, like looking to see if objects change location or disappear (I thought this would be a good one as it happens a lot in my dreams). I would then go further with the questioning by asking what day it is, what time it is etc., and only then would I finish with some physical checks like looking at my hands or reading text etc…

Yes, that probably is a bit much for a RC; also, you might consider doing a physical check first now and then.

I suppose it is a lot, but I was under the impression that reality checks were meant to be done in this way -- mindfully taking every aspect of your reality into account, and questioning things extensively. I thought it was important as it would instill within your RC’s more awareness and a better questioning mindset, which if performed in a dream, would be a lot more effective, and also because it might also increase your skills of being able to decipher which state you’re actually in, hence my rationale for including so much (I’ve actually missed many lucids from questioning things too narrowly). But you’re right, it’s definitely worth simplifying a bit (or a lot ).

Though I can understand how all those things could be added to RC's by well-meaning people, that is not the way they were originally intended to be done. They really were meant to be very simple critical state tests that certainly should have been done thoughtfully but also quickly, and in a manner where clear perceptual results could confirm that you are dreaming or awake (like looking at a clock twice), answering the singular question, "Is this a dream?"

This simplicity was meant to make them something you could take with you wherever you went; even in your dreams. All that other stuff you mention can be important -- hence my RRC, for instance -- and it would certainly help to bring that questioning mindset into your dream (and daytime work). But I suggest, again, that you do so in addition to a regular RC, instead of diluting your RC time with many other things, even if those things are important.

So as for the RRC... I’m still a bit unsure about some of the parts of it:

Firstly, what is the reason for asking the memory questions, in an attempt to increase your self-awareness? I thought self-awareness was about considering the effect you have on things and the effects things have on you. But why does this entail knowing where you just were and where you’ll soon be etc.?

Aside from the fact that memory is one of the fundamentals, and ought to be exercised as well:

RRC's are actually very much "here & now" events (just like dreams), and are meant to help establish your position in that here & now. The way they establish it is by having you frame your current moment with where you just were, where you are, and where you will be. So the RRC isn't meant so much to test your memory as to employ it to help set up the here & now moment in which you wonder about your interaction with local reality.

Fun fact, though: if you happen to manage a RRC during a dream, that step of remembering where you were a few minutes ago might be most helpful because, if lucid, you will remember that you were just asleep in bed... that can be most helpful on its own, aside from all the non-dualistic "this world is all me" stuff that a RRC performed during a LD offers.

Also, when considering your interaction, does it have to be the environment of now, or can it be things from other times -- like thinking about how your past actions have had effects on past events? Sometimes there isn’t a lot to work with in the ‘now’.

Because you are creating a "here & now" moment, it really is a good idea to work with the "now," rather than go too far into your past. Sure, go back an hour or two if you must (or care to), but try to keep everything as present as possible. Also, if you wonder deeply enough, you ought to be able to find some interaction going on with your local reality whenever you look -- it is always there, in some form.

Also, I’m not really certain about what it means to consider things in your ‘immediate environment’, I mean, at times when there are no people around, do you consider how you affect the ‘things’ in your environment? Like objects etc. I’m not really sure what it involves.

I think I press the "immediate environment" idea because when I first introduced this I found many people wondering about their interaction with everything -- the whole damn universe, in a couple of cases -- and this can have a negative effect on your self-awareness by belittling it in the face of such bigness. Your local reality is literally that: the space, people, and, yes, objects directly in your vicinity that your presence influences, and that are influenced by your presence. It really is that simple. The reason I emphasize "wondering" so much is because, with enough wondering, you will always find some interaction with reality, no matter how empty your current hour may be.

Here's a helpful hint, though: if you find yourself doing RRC's at a time when you are doing nothing, and nobody is around, try doing them during more active moments of your day; I've found it most interesting to do one during a conversation, or even an argument!

Finally, I don’t really understand the part about considering the effects things have on you. Does this mean you should assess your reactions to things that are happening around you or things people say etc. even if it’s not really directed at you?

Not your reactions so much as your interaction. Everything has an effect on you, even if you didn't notice; indeed, a RRC can help show you sometimes how much effected you that you failed to notice or react to. Instead of assessing what you did or said, consider the results of what you did or said. And if something is not directed at you it still happened, still rippled your reality a bit, so there may still be something to wonder about.

The primary purpose of the RRC is to help you become aware of your presence in reality, and ultimately to help you understand your presence and influence in your dream reality. Sometimes that presence can be fairly dull or uneventful, even in a dream, but that does not mean there is no presence, no interaction; it just means you might need to look a bit deeper to identify it.

@ Eamo; If I may chip-in and break my long lurking
You may have seen some LDers state that they are lucid before they even RC (which is the confirmation before you leap out of that window). This happens because their self-awareness "baseline" has become higher than their prospective memory which would have otherwise lead them to carry out a habitual RC to become lucid (or not, as is more likely). The LD resulting from self awareness is more desirable because it involves bringing more awareness in to the LD in the first place, and also more memory capabilities, which leads to longer, more stable and clearer LDs - and you'll remember your tasks. You won't find yourself running through your complex RRC routine in dream, because you'll already be aware, because you've already put that work in in your waking life.

RRC is designed to engender this kind of self awareness, as such it can be seen as a separate mechanism from RC (which is a skill you only need to do once to learn), RRC is closer to dream yoga in its action. You don't become lucid through meditation by sitting down to meditate in dream, it's a practice done IWL that increases the capacity for self awareness, likewise RRC.

Sageous,

I understand the overall idea of the fundamentals, but I’m not fully sure about how they act in a synergistic way to cause lucid dreams: would this be more or less correct?:

If you practice RC’s and RRC’s throughout the day, what you are really doing is ‘paying attention’ regularly throughout the day in a way you wouldn’t normally do. So this creates a kind of lucid mindset, I think -- and when this begins to take place in your dreams, it will allow you a better opportunity to switch self-awareness and memory on in a place where they’re normally absent -- causing lucidity.

So by doing things like RRC’s and RC’s throughout the day, this is catering for the self-awareness and memory points of the triangle. Expectation/intention then is simply intending to become lucid and thinking about your lucid goals (the final point). This probably gives your subconscious something to bind your daytime work with the dream state.

So by having all these things in place, you would actually be fulfilling all the requirements of the fundamentals? If so it really makes sense how DILD is not a technique; it’s most probably the result of daytime work (in fact I’m sure it is ), the only exception would be MILD.

So I’m thinking that if you wanted to increase your LD frequency, you would have to work on increasing each aspect of the fundamentals in their own right? Perhaps by increasing the frequency or intensity of RC’s or RRC’s, and having a stronger intention to become lucid. So basically just trying to boost these three things, aside from anything else?

Sorry if anything here sounds similar to some of my previous questions on the thread , but I’m just trying to understand fully how the fundamentals ‘combine’ to cause lucid dreams, or to understand them as a ‘practice’ as techniques are not that important.

Thanks!

^^ Well, Eamo, you seem to have a clear understanding of what I'm going for here; you probably summed it all up better than I could!

I ought to just thank you and shut up, but of course I can't leave well enough alone, so here are a couple more thoughts:

Originally Posted by Eamo24

If you practice RC’s and RRC’s throughout the day, what you are really doing is ‘paying attention’ regularly throughout the day in a way you wouldn’t normally do. So this creates a kind of lucid mindset, I think -- and when this begins to take place in your dreams, it will allow you a better opportunity to switch self-awareness and memory on in a place where they’re normally absent -- causing lucidity.

Yes, pretty much.

I think however that the mindset you will develop is a bit more fluid. There will be less opportunity to switch on self-awareness and memory to cause lucidity as there will be a greater tendency on your part to simply be self-aware, and for that tendency to both welcome lucidity and to better work with your presence in the dream, particularly in the memory department.

So, in effect, all this extra paying attention will indeed help you to be better able to pay attention in a dream -- just like you said, only with less mechanical switching (remember that this whole fundamentals concept is more of a mindset establishment than a specific technique).

So by doing things like RRC’s and RC’s throughout the day, this is catering for the self-awareness and memory points of the triangle. Expectation/intention then is simply intending to become lucid and thinking about your lucid goals (the final point). This probably gives your subconscious something to bind your daytime work with the dream state.

Yes.

There's probably a lot more expectation-building going on unconsciously as you do all the day work, but you certainly have the idea.

So by having all these things in place, you would actually be fulfilling all the requirements of the fundamentals? If so it really makes sense how DILD is not a technique; it’s most probably the result of daytime work (in fact I’m sure it is ), the only exception would be MILD.

Yes.

And yes, DILD, like WILD, is not a technique, but a term for the transition of daytime consciousness into a dream. MILD is indeed the only "classic" ILD that is actually a technique. This I think is a foundational point to the general difficulty people have with WILD and DILD: They've been led to believe they are techniques, so if you "do" a WILD you'll be lucid... but by the time the WILD or DILD happens, they've already needed to have "done" the work, and confusion ensues.

So I’m thinking that if you wanted to increase your LD frequency, you would have to work on increasing each aspect of the fundamentals in their own right? Perhaps by increasing the frequency or intensity of RC’s or RRC’s, and having a stronger intention to become lucid. So basically just trying to boost these three things, aside from anything else?

Yes, but:

I would say, again, that you should be looking for a more fluid development of these three things to a point where they exist comfortably in your psyche rather than "increasing aspects" or boosting them individually. But this could just be semantics or the nature of your point of view, so how you put it, and understand it, is probably fine.

Thanks again for the post and the summary, Eamo. I can be quite confusing, conflicting, and downright hazy sometimes, and it is most gratifying to know that someone is actually getting it!

I'd be interested, Sageous , in your take on this dream scenario I had the other night.

In short, some guy in a car practically side-swipes me, a pedestrian, I get angry and slap his car as it goes by.
The driver gets mad at me, stops, gets out of his car, and pursues me (I think to fight).
I get scared, evade him, and run away.

So on the surface, I was "affecting" my "local reality", and by my reaction I caused a reaction in a DC, "affecting" him.
The angry DC then came at me, and "affected me" by my becoming scared and running away.
Since it was a non-lucid dream I thought this situation was "real."

The RRC, to build self-awareness, is founded on this consideration of affecting one's "local reality." But in a dream, it seems to be "reality" and DCs can react just like a waking person would, and you to them!

So, where in there would a heightened self-awareness kick in to result in lucidity? I mean, on the surface, I was "affecting others" and those others were in turn responding to me and "affecting me."

But obviously, since it was a dream, there was only me, but it didn't feel like only me, it felt like a waking life scenario with independent actors.

Would a heightened self-awareness result in me questioning my motives in hitting the car, and instead of running away, attempting to either apologize or engage with the angry DC? And would I judge by his reaction to my own reaction whether or not this would be a dream?

Or would it be a more subtle/elusive less intellectual "feeling" that this seems to be a dream?

I realize that the RRC is not meant to be an "in dream" state check. But I started thinking about this action/reaction/reaction sequence and got confused since it seems that this happens in dreams as well as in waking life, and wondered about the implications, if any, on the RRC.

Would the difference be that a developed self-awareness would bring mental attention to the action/reaction sequence, while undeveloped self-awareness just lets it occur without reflection? I can see that.

But what I'm less clear about is just how the self-awareness reaches the conclusion that "this is all from me" (the dream) vs. "this is from outside of me" (waking).

^^ Hmm...

Originally Posted by FryingMan

In short, some guy in a car practically side-swipes me, a pedestrian, I get angry and slap his car as it goes by. The driver gets mad at me, stops, gets out of his car, and pursues me (I think to fight).
I get scared, evade him, and run away.

So on the surface, I was "affecting" my "local reality", and by my reaction I caused a reaction in a DC, "affecting" him.
The angry DC then came at me, and "affected me" by my becoming scared and running away.
Since it was a non-lucid dream I thought this situation was "real."

I guess that is correct logically, but you are omitting the point that the entire dream is your local reality, while at the same time it is all a representation of you. So no, during a NLD, you are not affecting your local reality, nor it, you; it is all happening at once, in a single schema. Thinking it was real is a symptom of NLD's, and there is no reality going on at all (of course, that doesn't mean it won't sure seem real).

The RRC, to build self-awareness, is founded on this consideration of affecting one's "local reality." But in a dream, it seems to be "reality" and DCs can react just like a waking person would, and you to them!

The RRC is meant to give you a vehicle for understanding that, in a dream there is no interaction with an outside reality; it is all you. The wondering you are doing during a RRC in waking life will translate to realization in a dream that there really is no interaction, nothing existed a few minutes ago in this reality, and what you do in the next five minutes is infinitely variable and dependent only on your imagination and not on any given reality -- because you know that all of this is you, here & now. Now, this realization can only come after you know you are dreaming (aka, you are lucid), so the RRC really is not meant to be a technique for inducing lucidity from a NLD. I suppose, though, that, like the RC, it could have the mechanical side-effect of inducing LD's because it is causing you to look around and perhaps to remember, but that, just like the original RC, was not its purpose.

Be reminded also that I introduced the RRC as part a tool for WILD, and WILD by its nature means that you never lose lucidity throughout the dive; why would you need it (the RRC) to induce anything?

So, where in there would a heightened self-awareness kick in to result in lucidity? I mean, on the surface, I was "affecting others" and those others were in turn responding to me and "affecting me."

Nowhere. As I just said, with WILD lucidity is "kicked in" from the get-go. The RRC simply helps you to keep that lucidity strong by helping you to understand the nature of the dream as it forms around you, no matter how real, complex, or "not of you" it appears to be. It is not meant to create lucidity; only to refine and maintain it.

But obviously, since it was a dream, there was only me, but it didn't feel like only me, it felt like a waking life scenario with independent actors.

As it would. But if you were doing a successful WILD, you would not be in a NLD, so you would have a conscious foundation for understanding that this is not a waking-life scenario with independent actors. The difference is significant, and may be the reason we all attempt WILD's in the first place.

Would a heightened self-awareness result in me questioning my motives in hitting the car, and instead of running away, attempting to either apologize or engage with the angry DC?

It sure would, in waking-life as well!

And would I judge by his reaction to my own reaction whether or not this would be a dream?

Probably not, because any reaction DC-you or he makes during a NLD will seem just fine, but (again) I suppose that if you did a RRC during a NLD, there is a chance that you might find enough inconsistencies (i.e., a few minutes ago you were in bed, and not on this street) to become lucid, but you can also count on your dreaming mind to provide a full complement of non-lucid answers to your questions.

Or would it be a more subtle/elusive less intellectual "feeling" that this seems to be a dream?

Yes, that sounds good, though I would use emotional or visceral in place of intellectual.

I realize that the RRC is not meant to be an "in dream" state check. But I started thinking about this action/reaction/reaction sequence and got confused since it seems that this happens in dreams as well as in waking life, and wondered about the implications, if any, on the RRC.

It has no implication on the RRC, because the whole point of the RRC was to allow you a moment to step away from the action and wonder about it. and its implications. When you do this during a dream, lucidly, the implications are very different than they are in waking life.

Would the difference be that a developed self-awareness would bring mental attention to the action/reaction sequence, while undeveloped self-awareness just lets it occur without reflection? I can see that.

Sure.

But what I'm less clear about is just how the self-awareness reaches the conclusion that "this is all from me" (the dream) vs. "this is from outside of me" (waking).

Well, again, that is the point of the RRC, and the point of doing it when you are already lucid. When you are self-aware in a dream, the conclusion that "this is all from me" is self-evident, just as "I am but a participant in a greater reality" is self-evident during an RRC in waking-life.

tl;dr: The RRC was meant to be a self-awareness enhancing exercise, and not a self-awareness inducing exercise. Hence its introduction in a WILD class, because with WILD you theoretically never lose self-awareness. And though a RRC done non-lucidly during a NLD might induce lucidity just through expectation or accident, that is not its purpose.

I hope this made some sense, FryingMan, and advance apologies for the massive parsing!

I'm much less happy with my post several hours after writing it, I think it's pretty confused, so sorry about that. Thanks for trying to make sense of it.

I guess I'm trying to figure out DILDs (not WILDs) brought about specifically through a powerful self-awareness built from waking life RRCs. Are they experienced as that sudden "flash" of understanding that this is a dream, or a more conscious process involving the events of the dream?~

^^ Is there something I'm missing here, FryingMan?

From my perspective, RRC's would be a pretty lousy tool for inducing DILD's. I suppose if you included them in your day work and were practicing MILD, the added sense of self they offer during that "RRC moment" might make them helpful. You could do what's been done to RC's and hope that constant repetition of RRC's might cause you to do one by rote during a NLD; after all, though that was not its intent, that asking about where you were a few minutes ago could remind you that you were really asleep in bed (did I already say that up above?)... of course, as with RC's, doing a RRC when not lucid could result in a false lucid about completing a RRC and becoming lucid. You might as well just do MILD, and save the RRC for after you know you're dreaming, just to soldify things.

If you are using RRC's to build a powerful, consistent sense of self during waking life then, perhaps ironically, you will not need a RRC during a NLD, as the seeds of lucidity were already sewn, because you may have already dragged enough self-awareness (and expectation) into the dream with you to allow you to be open to the idea that this might be a dream.... no flashes, no stimulus/response, just knowledge. You could certainly do a RRC after you become lucid in a DILD, which I highly recommend, because doing so will help solidify your presense in the dream. So, to me, RRC's are neither about a flash of lucidity or a conscious process involving the events of a dream, but a conscious pause after lucidity is established to better understand your state.

So, once again, in my mind RRC's are a lousy technique for inducing LD's; however, should you devise a way to make them work as a technique, then Let me know -- or, better yet, post a new tutorial on the technique. Perhaps I misunderstood you, FryingMan, but I really never intended RRC's to be a LD induction technique -- they are not a shortcut around the fundamentals.

I'm poorly communicating here -- I'm not talking about doing RRCs in dream to produce DILDs, and never have been (despite the confusing post to start this off with). I'm talking about how you say that with a highly developed self awareness, created through doing (for example) RRCs in waking life, lucidity, including DILDs, will come easily, naturally, in dreams, because you will *just know* that you're dreaming. "The key will become strong enough to move the lock" sort of thing. And I was wondering what that experience felt like in a dream.

My SC may have answered my own question: I had a fabulous vivid DILD just now, where my SC created a false memory backstory that I was looking at a photograph, and I found then that I turned around and I had somehow entered 'inside' the photograph, looking at my former home from across the street, and while not knowing how I got there, I just knew I was dreaming. Didn't even do a nose plug to confirm, I just *knew*, it was so obvious. I don't know how I knew: an instantaneous understanding coming from memory (I know I didn't live there any more [real memory], and the details were not quite right [real memory], and I 'knew' I had been looking at a photograph just the moment before ['false memory'], and entering live into a photograph is impossible [real memory]) and self-awareness?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Is there something I'm missing here, FryingMan?

From my perspective, RRC's would be a pretty lousy tool for inducing DILD's.

[...]

So, once again, in my mind RRC's are a lousy technique for inducing LD's; however, should you devise a way to make them work as a technique, then Let me know -- or, better yet, post a new tutorial on the technique. Perhaps I misunderstood you, FryingMan, but I really never intended RRC's to be a LD induction technique -- they are not a shortcut around the fundamentals.

*The sickening sound of everyone in the thread dying a little inside*

I think A LOT of people have interpreted RRC as your technique for developing self-awareness for WILD and DILD - I did, anyway.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I'm poorly communicating here -- I'm not talking about doing RRCs in dream to produce DILDs, and never have been (despite the confusing post to start this off with). I'm talking about how you say that with a highly developed self awareness, created through doing (for example) RRCs in waking life, lucidity, including DILDs, will come easily, naturally, in dreams, because you will *just know* that you're dreaming. "The key will become strong enough to move the lock" sort of thing. And I was wondering what that experience felt like in a dream.

Then yes, you were communicating poorly!

Yes, if you have highly developed -- or even fairly well-developed -- your self-awareness, I believe that you will indeed have very little trouble with LD'ing. Lucidity will come much easier, regardless of how you get there (DILD or WILD). It won't be natural, though, and can never be; you will always need to make some conscious effort to recognize you are dreaming -- LD'ing is not a natural event. If anything, being awake while asleep is anathema to nature, and that is what makes it so difficult (that term, "natural," seems to be getting thrown about quite a bit these days, and it is getting a bit disturbing).

Now that I understand what you're asking, and that we are actually speaking from the same page: The "feeling that you are dreaming, if you are strongly self-aware, is for me one of simple understanding; a mild shift, really, because, just like waking life, you really are still using the same consciousness you were just using during the NLD. It's just that now your self-aware consciousness has a clearer reference point from which to work. It's sort of an "Oh, duh. This is a dream" moment than it is an "Ah -ha!" moment, I think, which is not a bad thing at all, because it guarantees you will remain calm as you set about the work of imagination and remembering.

So, the more self-aware you are, the less exciting the moment of lucidity becomes...but that is only the first moment; the excitement that follows is up to you, and your strong self-awareness will only amplify that!

My SC may have answered my own question: I had a fabulous vivid DILD just now, where my SC created a false memory backstory that I was looking at a photograph, and I found then that I turned around and I had somehow entered 'inside' the photograph, looking at my former home from across the street, and while not knowing how I got there, I just knew I was dreaming. Didn't even do a nose plug to confirm, I just *knew*, it was so obvious. I don't know how I knew: an instantaneous understanding coming from memory (I know I didn't live there any more [real memory], and the details were not quite right [real memory], and I 'knew' I had been looking at a photograph just the moment before ['false memory'], and entering live into a photograph is impossible [real memory]) and self-awareness?

See? All that work can pay off!