Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

Hi Sageous,

I finally managed to read trough whole the thread, it took me weeks (not always have much time to read on this forum). And wow, it really opened my eyes on many levels. I really like the style where you, with so much patience, keep trying to explain yourself throughoutly.

I have some opinions that may or may not differ with yours, and probably will check those with you later, but first I still have some questions.

1. If I practise what you say, or better: what I think you say, it reminds me a lot off mindfullness. Do you see any similarities? And can you also point out the differences?

Maybe not a very good definition, found it on wiki:

Mindfulness is "the intentional, accepting and non-judgmental focus of one's attention on the emotions, thoughts and sensations occurring in the present moment",[1] which can be trained by meditational practices[1] derived from Buddhist anapanasati.[2]

For me mindfullness is more getting into the here and know, concious about yourself and your surroundings and trying to stay there as long as possible.

2. What happened with the "you are not the most important" part of your technique? I read it in the beginning of your treath and really liked it, it seems important for me overall, not specifically for LD, but for a healthy attitude. But it disappeared in the questions you mentioned again and again later in the thread. Do you have a reason for this or is it coincidence? And how exactly can this relate to the lucid dreaming state, where to me you actually are the most important and only one.

3. Could you please try to describe what exactly happens with you when you ask these questions to yourself, in terms of perception, clarity, sudden changes or gradual, how deep this strikes you and how long the effect of it stays, or in other terms that suite you more off course. I ask this to be able to compare if what happens to me is in the right direction. I ask it and not describe what is happening to me because it is so diverse, I try slight variations on your description and they sometimes give other effects, so I wonder what is the direction you tend to show us.

4. Afther all these years do you still ask yourself these questions or do you manage to create an at once mind setting of wonder?

If you have time please be welcome to give some of your ideas, if not I will try to figure out myself. Anyway thanks for your sharing in this thread, it has been and still is very inspiring.

The whole thread? Damn, that's impressive -- and perhaps humbling for me, given the number of times I must have contradicted myself, or wandered off to unexpected places ... thanks for your attention and patience!

Now:

Originally Posted by DreamyStivi

1. If I practice what you say, or better: what I think you say, it reminds me a lot off mindfulness. Do you see any similarities? And can you also point out the differences?

Yes, self-awareness is essentially mindfulness -- it is difficult to separate the two, except maybe for my opinion that self-awareness is more involved in acknowledging your own interaction with reality than mindfulness might be. I guess I was avoiding the term "mindfulness" in an effort to avoid having the thread follow a religious path..

For me mindfulness is more getting into the here and know, conscious about yourself and your surroundings and trying to stay there as long as possible.

That is pretty much my definition of self-awareness, so again, yes, we are on the same page here.

2. What happened with the "you are not the most important" part of your technique? I read it in the beginning of your treath and really liked it, it seems important for me overall, not specifically for LD, but for a healthy attitude. But it disappeared in the questions you mentioned again and again later in the thread. Do you have a reason for this or is it coincidence? And how exactly can this relate to the lucid dreaming state, where to me you actually are the most important and only one.

Hmm. I don't remember ever saying -- or thinking -- "'you are not the most important' part of your technique," and am far too lazy to find the context of such a statement in the thread. But I'll take your word for it, because I say lots of things when following a particular cadence of a Q & A, and will answer as though I did:

My best guess here is that I must have gotten into a conversation about dual and non-dual perspective, with non-dual being the target for successful LD'ing. In a non-dual perspective, you are intertwined with reality, and there is no separate "you" that observes from a distance or independent viewpoint (duality). And in a dream, there is no such thing as duality, because everything is "You," so pursuing a non-dual stance in a dream is counterproductive. So in a sense a standalone "you" does not exist, especially in a dream, where the entire universe is You; attempting to establish a separate "you" in a dream (i.e., lending relevance to your DC dream body by assuming it is real and separate from the rest of the dream) moves you a step away from lucidity, rather than a step closer.

Or something like that. I would probably have attempted to say all that without using the terms "duality" or "non-duality (monism)," because, as with the "mindfulness" omission, I wanted to avoid a lapse into the philosophical or religious discussion that terms like this seem to invite. Perhaps I should have used the terms?

All that aside, if I truly did say that "'You are not the most important part" of my technique, and the statement held when pulled out of context, then I was wrong: You -- as in the Self -- are most definitely the most important part of lucid dreaming, because lucid dreaming is essentially a conscious acknowledgement of you, and nothing else.

But you bring up something else, even more important: I am not presenting a technique on this thread!
If anything, the fundamentals are the anti-technique technique: master them and you will never need a technique to enjoy LD'ing (and much more). Yes, I'm sure I often discussed techniques (i.e., WBTB, MILD, RC's, and, of course, RRC's), as it can't be helped here, but self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention are not among them: they are basic aspects of mind, aspects that must be present to make all those techniques work, sure, but not techniques. Again: this thread is not a technique tutorial -- assume that it is, and you will miss its entire point.

3. Could you please try to describe what exactly happens with you when you ask these questions to yourself, in terms of perception, clarity, sudden changes or gradual, how deep this strikes you and how long the effect of it stays, or in other terms that suite you more off course. I ask this to be able to compare if what happens to me is in the right direction. I ask it and not describe what is happening to me because it is so diverse, I try slight variations on your description and they sometimes give other effects, so I wonder what is the direction you tend to show us.

I assume by the "questions" you mean the RRC... correct me if I misunderstood.

I think that what happens to me during a RRC is a moment of memory. For me -- a person with little interest in things like ADA -- physical perception is fairly unimportant, so I'm not really looking around during a RRC (though that can certainly be the case for others). The clarity is one of remembering who I am, where I am, and that I am involved with my immediate reality (sort of exactly as I describe it in my WILD class).

This moment varies according to where I happen to be when I stop to wonder, but it always serves to help me pay attention, to wonder, and become self-aware.... I guess we'd call that a moment of clarity, huh? When a RRC goes well, the shift to clarity is fairly immediate, and its effect lasts for as long as I am paying attention (usually a few seconds to a few minutes in waking life, far longer during dreams).

So no, I guess I cannot describe exactly what happens to me... this is a very "general" event, and it will be different every time, because it is driven by the moment, and by my current interaction with my local reality. The general theme is one of remembering to remember, to wonder, and of paying attention to where I am right now. Sorry it's so hazy.

If you'd care to go through an even longer Q & A thread, you might browse the Q & A thread in my WILD class, as it has many questions -- and answers -- about RRC's. Maybe one or two of them, or several combined, will tell you what you really want to know. Fair warning, though: this may be the first time I ever called it a "moment of memory," so don't call me out for changing my mind, again!

4. After all these years do you still ask yourself these questions or do you manage to create an at once mind setting of wonder?

Usually it's an "at once" sort of event, with the questions already being answered before I can phrase them. If the sense of wonder fails to arrive, though -- perhaps because I'm being a bit too habitual about things -- I will pause and actually run through all three questions, slowly and thoughtfully, just to verbally remind myself what I'm supposed to be wondering about.

So yes, after all these years I do occasionally ask myself the questions!


If any of this was unclear or simply incomplete, please feel free to ask once more, and I will try again.

Many thanks, DreamyStivi, for taking the time to read through this thread; I truly hope that your time spent here will make a difference.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Hmm. I don't remember ever saying -- or thinking -- "'you are not the most important' part of your technique," and am far too lazy to find the context of such a statement in the thread. But I'll take your word for it, because I say lots of things when following a particular cadence of a Q & A

I am to lazy myself to look it up, but I understand now it is/was a hint to non-duality, probably that's why I liked it and missed it in your later posts.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I would probably have attempted to say all that without using the terms "duality" or "non-duality (monism)," because, as with the "mindfulness" omission, I wanted to avoid a lapse into the philosophical or religious discussion that terms like this seem to invite. Perhaps I should have used the terms?

No, no, it is just nice to know. Nice to know that it is a form of mind-fullness (btw these days it is more a clinical term then a religious one) adjusted slightly to fit more in the LD sfere: interaction, memory (where was I before this). And nice to know that you have a non-dual way of thinking.

Originally Posted by Sageous

But you bring up something else, even more important: I am not presenting a technique on this thread!
If anything, the fundamentals are the anti-technique technique: master them and you will never need a technique to enjoy LD'ing (and much more).

Well, I guess I understand what you say anyhow, but I think we have some other concepts about technique here. I was definitely not referring to a technique to LD, and of course self awareness is not a technique for me. But to me the method you use to get there, is not self awareness itself, but is and stays a method, a technique, whatever you call it, to get into a self-aware mindset, and here I am referring to the questions (yes, RRC) you ask, sometimes even with the help of a device. This sounds technique to me. But I think I understand your point, and I think it doesn't yet differ from my way of looking at it. Don't worry, I will never see self awareness as a technique, it is a state of mind to me.

Originally Posted by Sageous

This moment varies according to where I happen to be when I stop to wonder, but it always serves to help me pay attention, to wonder, and become self-aware.... I guess we'd call that a moment of clarity, huh? When a RRC goes well, the shift to clarity is fairly immediate, and its effect lasts for as long as I am paying attention (usually a few seconds to a few minutes in waking life, far longer during dreams).

Yes I tend to call that clarity. Before I wonder I see my surroundings but I don't notice that I see it, the moment the wonder comes in, I notice that I am seeing, and this makes everything more clear, present, lucid.

Originally Posted by Sageous

So no, I guess I cannot describe exactly what happens to me... this is a very "general" event, and it will be different every time, because it is driven by the moment, and by my current interaction with my local reality. The general theme is one of remembering to remember, to wonder, and of paying attention to where I am right now. Sorry it's so hazy.

That assures me not to worry that it can feel sometimes so different, I was worried it was because of my slight variations, but see now that it indeed depends on the moment, what is happening or not and how deeply I was sunk in my automatic pilot or not.
But I often have a feeling op openness. Feeling more open to my surroundings, being able to notice things that I didn't notice before, you think is this ok?

Originally Posted by Sageous

If you'd care to go through an even longer Q & A thread, you might browse the [U][URL="http://www.dreamviews.com/wild/131816-wild-according-sageous-q.html"]Q & A thread in my WILD

I started this already, but I am going to take my time, more then weeks I guess, just as a now and then source of inspiration: not to forget to practise it.

But maybe one question: I have a busy life and have a small family, I would love to practise more on Wild, but it takes to much of my sleep, I have not much spare in my sleep time, do you have any advice on this?

Originally Posted by Sageous

Usually it's an "at once" sort of event, with the questions already being answered before I can phrase them. If the sense of wonder fails to arrive, though -- perhaps because I'm being a bit too habitual about things -- I will pause and actually run through all three questions, slowly and thoughtfully, just to verbally remind myself what I'm supposed to be wondering about.

Cool, that's same like me. Sometimes asking these questions seem more like a hindrance, because being already rather alert (after some meditation for example), other times I really need the questions, to wake me up. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I think I differ here a bit on your opinion on meditation. Although I follow you that meditation on itself will have no or very little effect on lucid dreams, I will never agree that it has a negative effect on it, especially not with meditations that aim to augment your self awareness, and that is fundamental to my definition of meditation and of many others I guess as wel. I experience that after meditation or during days when I meditate, this wonder comes very easily, as I explained above (without need of questions). What new to me is, and that I learned from you, that this is not sufficient. You need to know about LD, to set your intentions and create expectations for it, to have an effect on your dreams. I am very grateful that you pointed this out. Now I can use what I already did: developing my self awareness by meditation and wonder (this not so frequent until I stumbled on this thread), to improve my so beloved , but not so frequent and not often so high lucid dreams. Thanks. You inspire me to add some techniques (sorry, here I go again, you know what I mean, I hope) aimed specific at lucid dreaming to enhance the side effect of self awareness on my dreams. I don't know if it works, I will have to give it some more time first, but it seams logical.
Thanks, and there will probably come more questions after some time.

Originally Posted by DreamyStivi

That assures me not to worry that it can feel sometimes so different, I was worried it was because of my slight variations, but see now that it indeed depends on the moment, what is happening or not and how deeply I was sunk in my automatic pilot or not.
But I often have a feeling op openness. Feeling more open to my surroundings, being able to notice things that I didn't notice before, you think is this ok?

This is a very good thing ... as long as you don't let those surroundings take on too much importance, and diminish your sense of participation in your local reality. Allow yourself to become a humble spectator only, and the same will happen in your dreams.

But maybe one question: I have a busy life and have a small family, I would love to practise more on Wild, but it takes to much of my sleep, I have not much spare in my sleep time, do you have any advice on this?

Not really. Setting up timing for WILD's can be difficult when your waking-life schedule is full. I can suggest two thoughts, though: You could organize your sleep schedule so that your WILD attempts occur, say, very early in the morning when the family is sleeping and your busy day hasn't yet started, or you could reserve a few hours of your day off (I know; when do those happen, right?) as personal time, and do your WILD's then.

One upside to scheduling specific WILD time, though, is that it makes your dive attempts more important, perhaps something that you look forward to doing all week. This builds up expectation and might help you focus better during the attempt, given its importance. So perhaps a busy life might wind up working in your favor, if you let it.

I think I differ here a bit on your opinion on meditation. Although I follow you that meditation on itself will have no or very little effect on lucid dreams, I will never agree that it has a negative effect on it, especially not with meditations that aim to augment your self awareness, and that is fundamental to my definition of meditation and of many others I guess as well.

Fortunately, that is not my opinion of meditation. If I ever said that meditation has a negative effect on LD'ing, I was woefully wrong. Techniques like MILD and the those that we do to WILD are essentially versions of meditation, after all.

Yes, meditation alone will not induce a LD (for most), but it is certainly an excellent tool to add to the mix. Perhaps you misinterpreted posts I must have made that described how bad I am personally at meditation, and because of that have not included it in my LD'ing routines and priorities? I usually try to include a note saying that's "just me," but I might have left it out.

So rest assured that I may have an occasional problem with communication, but not with meditation. It can be a fine practice, and, given that so many versions of meditation (Vipassana comes to mind) are meant to increase mindfulness/self-awareness, and help develop a sense of non-duality, how could I disagree with its efficacy?

Sageous I was wondering what ways do you know of that increase self awareness aside from ADA\dream yoga\mindfulness or RR'C and normal RC's(are there even more? not quite sure myself...).

Personally I thinks devloping self awareness is great for LDing, but I think success in lucid dreaming can also come from non-awareness based techniques, such as MILD.

your thoughts?

Hey Sageous, just wanted to tell you that I had my first lucid in a long time this morning and I can safely attribute this directly to your self awareness and memory advice. It took me a while to figure out how to practice self awareness but I decided to try lidybug's Clear Light Perspective.

Unfortunately I made the mistake of blinking in the dream and I woke up but promising results regardless!

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

Sageous I was wondering what ways do you know of that increase self awareness aside from ADA\dream yoga\mindfulness or RR'C and normal RC's(are there even more? not quite sure myself...).

First, I never really considered ADA a good way to increase self-awareness, because it tends to diminish your presence in reality rather than elevate it. Aside from that, I think what you've listed pretty much covers the gamut of solidifying your self-awareness for me. There is also meditation, of course (as I mentioned above, much of what I do is similar to Vipassana), but ultimately self-awareness boils down to simply paying attention, so, for me, the number of techniques for developing it extremely limited.

I would also imagine that most techniques for developing self-awareness will likely fall into a RRC sort of category, but I'm sure others have come up with clever ways to mindfully dip into the Here & Now, and really think about your interaction with reality. Unfortunately, I can only imagine, because I've never looked that hard at the work of others about this; I suppose I should have! However, Deviant thinker does remind me that Lidybug's Clear Light Perspective is an excellent technique/point of view to look into. I am sure there are many more, but they will all come down to the same set of simple yet-oh-so-difficult activities that tempt you to consider that you exist, and are integral to reality.

Also, I really do not consider RC's a tool for improving self-awareness, since you can successfully complete them without ever drawing your Self into the exercise.

So: except for meditation, I have no other ways. Self-awareness is that simple.

Personally I thinks developing self awareness is great for LDing, but I think success in lucid dreaming can also come from non-awareness based techniques, such as MILD.

Mostly agreed.

Though self-awareness is critical to LD'ing, remember that there are two other fundamentals to LD'ing. MILD is an excellent technique for developing memory, for instance, and getting it involved in the process of getting lucid. Time must also be spent on expectation/intention as well. However, you can use MILD to bring you to a moment of lucidity, but you still must have some sens of self-awareness on hand for that moment to continue and blossom.

Also, keep in mind that if you truly master self-awareness, memory as a tool for lucidity is much more accessible as well, and expectation suddenly becomes much less important...

That clear light perspective sure looks hard, i'm definately gonna try that one day...

Also, maybe it's just me but what does memory mean when you talk about it in the OP and how do I improve it. Never really understood that one.

And speaking of memory, is it ok to 2 mantras at once (like"I know i'm dreaming, i'm lucid)?

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

Also, maybe it's just me but what does memory mean when you talk about it in the OP and how do I improve it. Never really understood that one.

You know, I must have started a thread about memory (as one of the fundamentals) a half dozen times now, and I have yet to be satisfied with the results. I think that is because I was consistently trying to complicate a very simple subject enough to justify an extensive OP and discussion, when memory pretty much defines itself, if reflexively, with one word: memory.

As I reread it now, I notice that I made one small error in the OP when I discussed memory: I said memory was shut off during non-lucid dreams. Though that is effectively true, and makes it point as is I suppose, memory is never actually shut off during NLD's; it is simply inaccessible. But I digress.

The memory I'm talking about here is not a technique or skill like dream recall, prospective memory as used in MILD, or some trick for remembering to remember, but memory itself -- the big-picture database in your brain that contains all the information that defines you; all the moments, details, facts, and experiences that comprise your personal history and shape your personality.. In a very real sense you are your memories, and when you lose access to memory in a dream, you lose access, literally, to You.

It is that simple, for better of for worse. Memory as a Lucid Dreaming Fundamental is memory itself, and not some technique or operation. As I think I noted in the thread somewhere, improving access to memory is certainly possible, and there are innumerable techniques and guidebooks available to help you do so, any of which would be just as useful as what I would have to say. In other words, just keep in mind that successful lucidity depends on your ability to access your memory and, thus, access the foundations of your Self. This access can result from strong self-awareness, though, and often can be triggered by techniques such as MILD or RC's.

I know that was brief and possibly not what you wiched to hear, but it's the best answer, initially, to your question; I hope I made some sense. If not, then ask again and I'll give it another go, because this memory is an important subject that rarely fets its due attention.

And speaking of memory, is it ok to 2 mantras at once (like"I know i'm dreaming, i'm lucid)?

Sure.

Sageous, you wouldn't believe what happened to me just now but long story short, I used your reverse RC for one day and that same night I got a lucid!!!!!

Now the long version :p


So during the day I was practicing my SAT\ADA methods, but I wanted to throw your method into the mix, i started questioning really intensely where will I go and where was I and does being where I am make sense, and thats really it.

Also, I incorprated more of the SAT awareness after realizing I should emphsize that and not RC mindlessly(or do it without the awareness is more accurate) I also said my mantras during the day with the RC's and awareness and I did a ADA session close to my sleeping time.


So I went to bed quite early because I need to get up early too, then I remember asking myself: "Hmmmm" as I grin and make a small laugh "I don't know whether i'm actually awake in bed or dreaming".

AND THEN IT HIT ME, I'M LUCID!!!!! now this is where things get crazy. I didn't really expect to be lucid you see, at least not this fast!!! so I wasted my LD trying to get to sleep. during this time I felt really stressed and scared because I was afraid of not getting early enough for my job(and because I thought about creepypastas at the time)
.
Then I decided to just try and get along with the lucid and do stuff, but then an invisible force(maybe my subconsious I think) pushed me forcefully into the bed with great strength.
I struggled with it for a short amount of time and then I gave up, fell to the bed and asleep only to wake up after my lucid.


So yeah I guess your method works really well for me! maybe this is the method I was looking for!(although it's soon to say since I only got 1 lucid so far).

I've pretty much put this method in hiatus since my sleep has been so screwed for the past couple of weeks. I'm just working solely on fixing my sleep at the moment.

Sageous, do have any good tips for good sleep? I know that you don't really need to sleep as much now but what were effective practices for a sonorous snooze back when you were a mere whippersnapper like us?

HeWhoShapes: Interesting experience -- and an experience that was likely unavoidable, given the amount of day work you put in!

I'm not sure why you were still trying to go to sleep after you knew you were dreaming (and thus also knew you were asleep); you might want to incorporate a plan to avoid that sort of activity next time you're lucid. Thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

Sageous, do have any good tips for good sleep? I know that you don't really need to sleep as much now but what were effective practices for a sonorous snooze back when you were a mere whippersnapper like us?

Well, I guess I must remember something about a good nights sleep, even though it was so long ago that I cared... :

I think the best thing to guarantee a good night's sleep is the atmosphere of the place in which you are sleeping. A cool, comfortable bedroom, a cozy bed, closed curtains, and no distractions like TV's or computers, is all you really need to go to sleep peacefully and stay there once you are asleep. If possible, try to keep other distractions (like siblings or parents) out of your room (or earshot) for a while.

Also, try not to think about anything other than your dreams, or other good thoughts. Bedtime is not the time to fret about the day you just finished, or the one you have to deal with tomorrow; just let it all slide.

And don't go to sleep with you TV or computer on; that never helps!

Finally, and of course, give yourself enough time to sleep. If you must get up early, then go bed early as well!

I don't think I added anything new or original here, so I'm not sure if I helped -- but I hope so!

Good luck and good night!

Originally Posted by Sageous

HeWhoShapes: Interesting experience -- and an experience that was likely unavoidable, given the amount of day work you put in!

I'm not sure why you were still trying to go to sleep after you knew you were dreaming (and thus also knew you were asleep); you might want to incorporate a plan to avoid that sort of activity next time you're lucid. Thanks for sharing!

Well the reason is because I think that having LD's harms your sleep cycle and thus your sleep(not completly sure it's true though, is it?).

I guess also because it took me 2 hours just to get back to sleep that night!(even though i went to sleep at 3:26!) ,I was really exited so that may have caused it, plus a desire to try to WILD that night.

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

Well the reason is because I think that having LD's harms your sleep cycle and thus your sleep(not completely sure it's true though, is it?).

No, I don't believe it is.

Generally, lucid dreaming has no real effect on your entire sleep cycle. Your body still goes about its restorative process regardless of your occasional conscious presence during that process.

As an exception, about the only "harm" I've encountered is waking up mentally exhausted after very high-level LD's that go on for hours (through DEILD dream-chaining); I've heard of headaches as well after this, but I don't get them. For me, the trade-off has always been worth it!

I think this has been researched as well (though I cannot remember by whom), and it has been found that "normal" LD'ing has no effect on your overall sleep cycle... it might even help, because LD's can be used to deal with your daytime problems, fend off nightmares, or just relax in a perfectly calm place. So try not to worry about it!

Sageous I was wondering if it's a good idea to incorprate RC'S into my RR'C (like questioning where I am and doing an RC to confirm whether i'm dreaming) or should I just keep them seperate?

^^ Sure, go ahead and combine them. An RC after an RRC is a nice way to conclude the moment, and might come in handy should you be doing a RRC during a dream.

Hi again Sage!

So I really got to learning about how to preform RC's properly and I read that you must have a "critical question" followed but other questions to check your reality(things like who\what are you, where have you been, how did yiu get to where you are,what are you doing and why etc.)

So my question is all of this questioning really necessary in every single RC attempt????? isn't just enough to ask the critical question and inspect your sorundings and do a simple nose-plug RC without all of this questioning????

I guess it sounds like i'm being lazy, which I admit I kinda am, and yet I do think all of this questioning and a bit overwhelming wouldn't you say?

This comes up frequently, and not that long ago recently. I will attempt a brief answer and Sageous will I'm sure fill in what I get wrong or missed.

An RC is a quick simple check to determine whether or not you're dreaming. That's it, no more, no less. For example: nose pinch: can you breathe? Yes->dream, no->awake. Pretty simple. Now, yes while doing the RC you should do it not while distracted, you should for that brief time give it your full attention, to avoid the undesirable habit of doing an RC in a dream and then just ignoring the result and moving on non-lucidly.

A practice of performing RCs while awake typically does not build self-awareness. It's the other way around: elevated self-awareness causes you to do the RC in the first place. Some people say that doing RCs habitually/frequently during the day will causes the habit to transfer over into dreams, but for myself personally, I do not see that. If you're in "zombie mode," briefly tune in long enough to perform an RC, then immediately zone out again, you're not really working towards becoming lucid in dreams.

But then how does one build self-awareness? That's where developing a critical faculty comes in. Other ways of devleoping awareness include: Sageous's RRC; mindfulness/vigilance, meditation, and so forth.

In short, learning to pay attention to yourself and your mindset/interactions with your environment. Being lucid while awake is the best way to be lucid in dreams.

Going through a series of questions is not harmful I think but just sort of unnecessary, at least once you get into the swing of being tuned in: once you're familiar enough with the feel of a dream, when you pay attention (are mindful, etc.), you just "know" that you're dreaming. While RCs can be very helpful to confirm the dream state, it's the awareness that gets you to doing the RC "heyyyyy, something's odd about this".

[I wrote the following before reading FringMan's post above, which really is a much better answer!]

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

So my question is all of this questioning really necessary in every single RC attempt????? isn't just enough to ask the critical question and inspect your surroundings and do a simple nose-plug RC without all of this questioning????

I guess it sounds like i'm being lazy, which I admit I kinda am, and yet I do think all of this questioning and a bit overwhelming wouldn't you say?

Nope. All of that questioning is by no means necessary, and is probably a distraction from the primary purpose of an RC, which is simply testing your state. That critical question can, and perhaps ought to be, nothing more than "Is this a dream?" Any other questions are, I think, part of something else (like my RRC, for instance), and are best asked separately from that simple critical inquiry.

I have a feeling that all those other, deeper questions were added over time by well-meaning people who wanted to make the occasion of an RC as deep and meaningful as possible. Unfortunately, in the process they may have left behind the singular purpose of RC's, which is to get your mind prepared for the moment when the simple answer to the question becomes, "Yes, this is a dream." To add complication, meaning, or deeper introspection to a RC might feel like the right thing to do, but it really isn't. Ask those other questions some other time, sure, but adding them to the moment of an RC both dilutes the impact of the RC, especially when its answer is positive, and reduces the importance of the other questions as well.

So cater to your laziness, HeWhoShapes, or perhaps your excellent intellectual instincts, and avoid those overwhelming examinations and just keep those RC's simple!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

This comes up frequently, and not that long ago recently. I will attempt a brief answer and Sageous will I'm sure fill in what I get wrong or missed.

An RC is a quick simple check to determine whether or not you're dreaming. That's it, no more, no less. For example: nose pinch: can you breathe? Yes->dream, no->awake. Pretty simple. Now, yes while doing the RC you should do it not while distracted, you should for that brief time give it your full attention, to avoid the undesirable habit of doing an RC in a dream and then just ignoring the result and moving on non-lucidly.

A practice of performing RCs while awake typically does not build self-awareness. It's the other way around: elevated self-awareness causes you to do the RC in the first place. Some people say that doing RCs habitually/frequently during the day will causes the habit to transfer over into dreams, but for myself personally, I do not see that. If you're in "zombie mode," briefly tune in long enough to perform an RC, then immediately zone out again, you're not really working towards becoming lucid in dreams.

But then how does one build self-awareness? That's where developing a critical faculty comes in. Other ways of devleoping awareness include: Sageous's RRC; mindfulness/vigilance, meditation, and so forth.

In short, learning to pay attention to yourself and your mindset/interactions with your environment. Being lucid while awake is the best way to be lucid in dreams.

Going through a series of questions is not harmful I think but just sort of unnecessary, at least once you get into the swing of being tuned in: once you're familiar enough with the feel of a dream, when you pay attention (are mindful, etc.), you just "know" that you're dreaming. While RCs can be very helpful to confirm the dream state, it's the awareness that gets you to doing the RC "heyyyyy, something's odd about this".

Well fryingman i do know the RC's don't make you lucid, it is the questioning and mindfulness you put into the questions(or so i read) yet I assume we both agree on that right?

Originally Posted by Sageous

Nope. All of that questioning is by no means necessary, and is probably a distraction from the primary purpose of an RC, which is simply testing your state. That critical question can, and perhaps ought to be, nothing more than "Is this a dream?" Any other questions are, I think, part of something else (like my RRC, for instance), and are best asked separately from that simple critical inquiry.

I have a feeling that all those other, deeper questions were added over time by well-meaning people who wanted to make the occasion of an RC as deep and meaningful as possible. Unfortunately, in the process they may have left behind the singular purpose of RC's, which is to get your mind prepared for the moment when the simple answer to the question becomes, "Yes, this is a dream." To add complication, meaning, or deeper introspection to a RC might feel like the right thing to do, but it really isn't. Ask those other questions some other time, sure, but adding them to the moment of an RC both dilutes the impact of the RC, especially when its answer is positive, and reduces the importance of the other questions as well.

I don't know sageous i'm kinda seeing a bit of a contradiction from what you told me in my earlier question:

"Sure, go ahead and combine them. An RC after an RRC is a nice way to conclude the moment, and might come in handy should you be doing a RRC during a dream."

I mean, if they should be seprate, then why combine them at all in the end?!

Well i guess i should tell you guys why i came up with that question: so i have been reading these guides lately (some of them from the site ld4all, so i don't know if i can show them):

Puffin's DILD Guide - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

"The Importance of Awareness"

and

"The Secret of Frequent Lucid Dreamers"

both of them are on LD4all

I also read and saw these:

Physical And Mental Reality Checks For Lucid Dreaming - How To Lucid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Abf8vo44w

if you read those guides(and i reccomend you do) you will have noticed that especially in the former 2, questioning your reality is greatly emphisized, so I figured i should do the same with RC's.

I think the only logical thing for me to do now is to just seprate the 2 types of questions like sageous suggested.


Also thanks guys for your valuable inupt(again )

^^ If you already had your answer, then why did you ask the question?

This is not a thread for arguing, HeWhoShapes; I'm here to answer questions based on what I know, and what I've presented here and in my WILD class. If you have found more agreeable answers to your questions from someone else, that's just fine. But there is no need to present those answers here as an argument against the answer I offered, as I have no inclination to defend myself. I have not maintained my presence on this thread to be tested or trolled, either, and really do not appreciate being asked loaded questions just so you can show me how I'm wrong or mistaken; that is not helping anyone.

But, as long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

I don't know sageous i'm kinda seeing a bit of a contradiction from what you told me in my earlier question:

"Sure, go ahead and combine them. An RC after an RRC is a nice way to conclude the moment, and might come in handy should you be doing a RRC during a dream."

I mean, if they should be seprate, then why combine them at all in the end?!

I see no contradiction here, because I clearly said to do a RC after a RRC, and not directly combine the questioning. I was suggesting to do a RC in addition to the RRC in the same general time frame. There is a difference between doing two different exercises sequentially, as I said in that quote, and making a RC a moment of complex questioning. Though I did use the word "combine," I think I was pretty clear that you would still be ding an RC on its own, before or after your RRC. I do not feel I contradicted myself here.

Well i guess i should tell you guys why i came up with that question: so i have been reading these guides lately (some of them from the site ld4all, so i don't know if i can show them) ... if you read those guides(and i reccomend you do) you will have noticed that especially in the former 2, questioning your reality is greatly emphisized, so I figured i should do the same with RC's.

Again, HeWhoShapes, if you find someone else's take on this stuff more agreeable, that's fine; but please don't list them here as if to indicate that my suggestions were wrong, simply because those tutorials -- and other opinions -- exist. That said:

Though I am sure that material you've presented has merit (and I am familiar with some of it), I really do not think that presenting me with some links to opinions and experience that vary from mine shows that I am wrong, or perhaps ignorant of some common knowledge -- honestly, I wasn't sure what you were going for here.

I obviously do not agree that questioning reality in a RC or RRC is needed. For me, questioning reality is a little silly in any case, because you always instinctively know the answer to that question -- that, yeah, this is reality -- so the question itself is a bit disingenuous.

Plus, during a NLD the dream is reality, so even questioning reality there does not make sense for gaining lucidity, because all you are doing is confirming that what you had non-lucidly assumed as real is real. Also, I've never been in favor of assuming that everything is a dream, because I personally cannot do so without knowing that it is not (and I highly doubt that anyone being honest with themselves could envision their environment as a dream). And of course, people who have trouble with reality in the first place should never question reality, but that isn't relevant here, I think.

State tests are meant to confirm reality; that is how they work. If you start assuming that the baseline for the state test -- reality -- is not real, then you are simply muddling the RC, not to mention kidding yourself.

I think the only logical thing for me to do now is to just seprate the 2 types of questions like sageous suggested.

So then you never had to ask the question, and you also were never confused by my apparent contradiction above. I really do not appreciate having my time wasted, HeWhoShapes, I hope you'll avoid doing so in the future.

Well I guess it's kinda my fault for not being clear then, I asked these questions and put those links up not really to argue with you, my intent was just to show you how I got to that conclusion about questioning reality.

I think that since your input is so helpful I don't think you are wrong at all and you are right, this isn't a place for argueing anyways.

I should have put more thought into it(wrote it when I came very tired home from work you see).


So I think that I finally understand what I should have a long time ago, the role of RC's (and RR'C?) is just to confirm reality rather than questioning it correct?

Sorry if I wasted your time, next time I shouldn't write when tired! :\

^^ Fair enough. I am very glad I misunderstood!

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

So I think that I finally understand what I should have a long time ago, the role of RC's (and RR'C?) is just to confirm reality rather than questioning it correct?

That's pretty much it, from my perspective. The RRC is a bit more involved, because you are acknowledging your presence and participation in your local reality as well, but the existence of reality, in either case, is better left understood, and not questioned. And, of course, by assuming that reality is real (aka not questioning it), when a RC fails in a dream and you find that reality is not real, everything slides much more smoothly toward full lucidity.

One other quick, and ironic, RC note that I thought of this morning: you really cannot do a RC in a dream -- and have it fail, proving you are dreaming -- unless you are already at least slightly lucid. If you RC while not lucid in a dream, it will work just like it does in reality, and not fail. I don't know why I thought that was relevant to this conversation, but I thought I'd throw it in...

Sorry if I wasted your time, next time I shouldn't write when tired! :\

I feel like it was much less wasted now; thanks for the clarifications! And take a nap before you post next time!

Originally Posted by Sageous

One other quick, and ironic, RC note that I thought of this morning: you really cannot do a RC in a dream -- and have it fail, proving you are dreaming -- unless you are already at least slightly lucid. If you RC while not lucid in a dream, it will work just like it does in reality, and not fail. I don't know why I thought that was relevant to this conversation, but I thought I'd throw it in...

Yes, it's sort of a "chicken and the egg" scenario, "what came first, the RC or the lucidity?" Looking anecdotally at my LDs, I agree it's always lucidity that comes first. The RC is an extremely useful tool -- in more than a few dreams it has greatly assisted in solidifying lucidity, amplifying it from a tiny back-of-the-mind notion to full-fledged conscious realization. But lucidity begins with the (sometimes tiny seed of) awareness ("hey, that's weird/surprising", or "this feels like a dream").