Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

Originally Posted by Sageous

The first problem might lie in that you assumed that your dream was collapsing; it probably wasn't. Next time you think your dream is collapsing, try relaxing a bit and either allow a new dream to form or form one yourself; assuming that a dream is irrevocably collapsing will very likely lead to its irrevocable collapse... expectation is a very powerful thing in dreamland.

I remember a couple of occasions before where it felt at first like my dream was ending, but on closer inspection I was able to recognize that a dream scene was still present (albeit a dark, black, empty one), along with my dream body. I then was able to patiently wait for new dream visuals and continue a little longer before waking up. So indeed, it's a good idea not to be too quick to assume a dream has ended—give it a few moments before deciding for sure.

In relation to my issue with LDs collapsing too quickly, i have figured something out that may be helpful to others.

The problem stems from how i place too much of my attention on my mind and not on what's around me. When i am inside an LD, my waking-life nature of obsessive thinking comes into the picture and i automatically neglect everything around me as i think about what i should do next. If you were to ask me about the simplest of environmental details such as what object was infront of me, i wouldn't remember, and that's because i wasn't even paying much attention to things to begin with.

I placed too much attention on my thoughts and that caused me to "space out" from what was around me in my LDs.
Often, i tried balancing my attention so that i don't get consumed by my thoughts. That has shown a clear improvement in dream length itself as a result.

Do you think that daily exercises to increase self-awareness like RRCs have an effect on our physiology/neurons/brain/neurotransmitter levels, etc.?

^^ I do think so.

But unfortunately (especially for me) I am scientifically inept, so I can't offer you any data to support my thinking so.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't any data: A few long-time DV members, especially Zoth, Mzzkc, Snoop, and I think Darkmatters have pretty extensive knowledge of the evidence -- and likely the functions -- behind how LD practice can help to rewire your brain in very positive ways.... you might want to browse their threads to see what they had to say.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I do think so.

But unfortunately (especially for me) I am scientifically inept, so I can't offer you any data to support my thinking so.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't any data: A few long-time DV members, especially Zoth, Mzzkc, Snoop, and I think Darkmatters have pretty extensive knowledge of the evidence -- and likely the functions -- behind how LD practice can help to rewire your brain in very positive ways.... you might want to browse their threads to see what they had to say.

Ok, thanks I will look them up.

I was considering how successful LDing can be likened to an ability to override the "switch" we have by nature that turns off our mind, (i.e. our self-awareness and memory) when we fall asleep. In this simple and easy to read article I found, our mind falls asleep due to what scientists call "sleep state switching" involving neurotransmitters GABA and Orexin https://www.tuck.com/flip-flop-switch/

Anyway, if our self-awareness and memory are turned off by neurons and neurotransmitters, we probably need a lot more of the ones that keep our mind on and awake when our body falls asleep so as to override the switch.

What I´m getting at is if self-awareness practices during the day like RRCs eventually aid our minds in staying awake while our body falls asleep, then maybe what is going on under the hood is that those practices are slowly changing our brain and chemistry in such a way that we produce more of the stuff that is needed to overide the switch.

Wow. I have just gone through every page of this amazing thread in four hours of a slow day at the office.

It is amazing, really, how much golden information there is in these pages.

As for me.....having just begun my fourth month of training I have now realized the one fundamental I have been missing. Memory.

Thank you for this, Sageous.

^^ Wow; that's a lot of reading... I'm glad it was some help!

If you haven't done so yet, I did have a separate thread about memory, here, that you might find interesting.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Wow; that's a lot of reading... I'm glad it was some help!

If you haven't done so yet, I did have a separate thread about memory, here, that you might find interesting.

Thanks for that link....I did see it in the early pages and bookmarked it. This really does feel like the missing link for me. I get lots of low level lucidity these days and every once in a while that memory switch (now that I see it for what it is) has been turned on during a DILD. I now want to work on my WILDs much more diligently so that I can enter my dreams with the switch in the on position. It is already working.

Last night I had time for an attempt. I visualized the threshold between awake and a'dream as an opaque portal. I have been through that portal one time. This time I visualized a conduit that attached my dream self to my sleeping self and admonished myself over and over to REMEMBER....remember the sleeping self, remember the threshold....and remember that it's a dream. After an hour or so I let myself fall asleep and was immediately in a dream. This was intense lucidity (for me). I looked for that portal and barely saw it as I awoke. It was time for me to start my day.

Yeah....memory.

I'm working today on moving through my day surrounded by an expanding bubble of time and realization. I have been constantly looking back...retracing what I just did as far back as possible quickly. That is much harder than I realized it would be.....I am working at it.

Tonight I'll sleep well and dream.....and remember where I just was.

I apologise for potentially asking something that might've been asked before (this thread is huge, and I plan to go through all of it soon, but it needs a lot of time).

The self-awareness you speak of: being aware of yourself as part of your environment, influencing it and it influencing you. How do you translate that to the transition that happens during a WILD. I never had a successful WILD but I imagine that if I was self-aware of myself (as in, my body) as influencing and being influenced by my surroundings (as in, waking reality), that would just tie me to the waking world and would hold me back from transitioning into the dream. So, what happens with this self-awareness during a transition and how can we better define what "you" and "environment" is?

I hope my question makes sense.

No worries on repeating a question; I totally understand!

First, I know you didn't mention it here, but I want to make this clear: the self-awareness I speak of is not a technique, it is a state of mind. Yes, there are techniques, like my RRC (from Session 1 of the WILD class), that help encourage self-awareness (though in the end self-awareness is a decision and not a result of technique), but self-awareness is not a thing you do, it is a thing you are. That said:

Originally Posted by gbbr

The self-awareness you speak of: being aware of yourself as part of your environment, influencing it and it influencing you. How do you translate that to the transition that happens during a WILD. I never had a successful WILD but I imagine that if I was self-aware of myself (as in, my body) as influencing and being influenced by my surroundings (as in, waking reality), that would just tie me to the waking world and would hold me back from transitioning into the dream. So, what happens with this self-awareness during a transition and how can we better define what "you" and "environment" is?

Being self-aware will help you through anything, including a WILD dive!

As I do not recommend focusing on your body when developing self awareness, but rather on your overall presence, there would be no need to be focusing on your physical body during a WILD attempt -- and yes, doing so would likely reduce your chances of success, probably by keeping you from falling asleep. However, your awareness of your influence on your surroundings and them on you will make the transition much easier, because you will understand, for instance, that all that noise you may be experiencing is not a barrage from scary outside forces, but just another facet of you, and is always present on your passage to sleep and dream whether you notice it or not.

Since self-awareness is not a thing or activity but simply an acknowledgement of your presence ("simply," he says -- hah!), nothing need happen to it during a WILD. And, since everything that happens during a WILD is a product of your own physical sleep process, your mental functions, your imagination, during a WILD your environment is you. So, if you are strongly self-aware throughout your WILD, you can navigate the transition knowing that all those vibrations, HI, "SP," etc., are meaningless facets of the falling asleep process, making that part of your transition much easier. Later, as sleep arrives and, say, your "environment" changes to nothingness because your dreaming mind has not yet spooled up a dream, you will recognize the void and be better able to either patiently wait for a dream to come, or start forming one yourself, because you can easily remember "where" you are.

Also, once the transition is complete, your presence will already be established, so maintaining lucidity will be a snap. For instance, you will see right through false awakenings because you will know your mind created the scene; you will be better able to maintain lucidity because you will have full access to memory (i.e., remembering your sleeping body); moving about in the dream scene, or leaving it altogether to work on your goals will be second-nature, because you understand that all creation around you is you; etc., etc, etc...

Finally, and as sort of a tl;dr, keep in mind what a WILD is: A WILD transition is nothing more than falling asleep and entering a dream without losing touch with your waking-life self-awareness -- self-awareness is even in the definition! So, if you have developed a strong sense of self that cannot be distracted or broken down by the wake-to-sleep-to-dream process, WILD transitions will prove quite doable, if not easy. And the key to understanding all of this is by understanding that self-awareness is not a thing you do, but a thing you are.

This is one of those questions that requires a book, and not a forum post, to fully address, but I hope I managed to provide some useful thoughts.

Sorry to bump the old thread.

Reading your original post, Sageous, I keep asking myself, what's the idea behind any induction method? Take for instance, the reality check. I wonder, when designing the test, what is the purpose of this exercise? Do I:

A) Design the reality check in the hopes of incubating its "moves" so that it shows up in the dream, and thus, get lucid?

B) Design the reality check as a vehicle for training self-awareness or general-type awareness?

I think both approaches deal with awareness or perhaps with different aspects of awareness, albeit through different means. In the first option, the reality check acts as a predefined mental alarm, a warning signal that prompts the user into action. Once it goes off the dreamer turns aware. On the other hand, option B appears to work in the shadows, the alarm in this case is undefined, or we could say one's self is the alarm, and once we go off we are aware. This is confusing to me because both methods do show up in lucid dreams. Sometimes the reality check objectively elicits lucidity. Other times the reality check isn't needed, you become lucid without ever doing it. Which brings the question, are both methods working on the fundamentals?

Further questions arise. If I design the test based on the intention of it showing up in my dreams, but I did not need it to become lucid, did the exercise failed? Once again, I'm at a crossroads. The check might've gotten me lucid without needing it, but not through the way I had foreseen. One could say, who cares, you got lucid. I say repeatability of the result is paramount. When I get lucid this way, I wonder, did the reality check had anything to do with it?

Pardon if I delved a bit on the DILD side of lucid dreaming.

No worries on the bump, Silence11, I'm still here! ... it is pretty amazing how long its been since the last post though. Anyway...

I think that if you keep reading my stuff on these forums, you will come to find that my general opinion of techniques is that they are not the things that make you lucid. Instead, it is your lucid mindset that brings on lucidity, regardless of techniques. In a sense, as long as your fundamentals are firmly in place, you will likely find success with any technique you use, just as and you might just be able to become lucid without any techniques at all.

What's the idea behind any induction method? Well, I guess that depends on who you ask.The technique gurus out there will tell you confidently and a little breathlessly, with nary a nod given to mental prep or the fundamentals, that all you need to do is their technique and you'll be lucid right away... And yes, their techniques often work right away, and even the next couple of times, but not because they're great techniques but because the novice dreamer is very excited about trying them out; the funny thing I've noticed over the years is how many dreamers complain that the latest new technique stopped working after a few successes, and this to me is because they came to believe that the technique was doing the work, and not their own enthusiasm.

On the other hand, there are those of us who see techniques as handy tools to assist a mind already prepared for the transition to lucidity. For instance, if you really look at MILD, you'll see that it is little more than a lot of daywork meant to build your lucid mindset so that you will come to know you are dreaming when the time comes -- all that work with stuff like prospective memory and, yes, state tests, is designed, I think, primarily to get your head in the right place without really letting you know that you are doing that (a bit of brilliance on LaBerge's part, I think). The trouble with MILD, and with my WILD practice here, is that they can take a long time to develop and master, so dreamers tend to get disappointed because they didn't get their results quickly -- and so they go back to the breathless gurus who promise instant results with their techniques, and the dreamer moves farther away from successful consistent lucidity.

I seem to be rambling, and this all does work better with a specific example; you picked a good one, so let me go there:

Originally Posted by Silence11

Take for instance, the reality check. I wonder, when designing the test, what is the purpose of this exercise? Do I:

A) Design the reality check in the hopes of incubating its "moves" so that it shows up in the dream, and thus, get lucid?

B) Design the reality check as a vehicle for training self-awareness or general-type awareness?

For A), I would say no.

As I mentioned above, it isn't the RC that "makes" you lucid, it is a low level of awareness that is already there; during a dream, the RC only functions as confirmation that you are dreaming. In other words, a successful RC "failure" during a dream comes after you've already realized you are dreaming; for the RC to work, you must already have the idea in your head that you're dreaming... you are already lucid when you do a successful RC, and not the other way around... RC's then, do not function as mental alarms as much as they are the switch to turn off an alarm that's already gone off so you can set about your time of wakefulness in your dream with better clarity and confidence.

If you successfully design a RC that shows up in your NLD without having a lucid mindset (aka, the fundamentals) in place, the chances of it "making" you lucid are pretty slim. Instead Dream Character You will likely see the RC "work," indicating to DC You that you are awake, and you'll move on without even thinking about lucidity. Or else your dreaming mind will provide you with a RC that fails and indicates you are dreaming and you will enjoy a NLD that provides all the stuff you expect to be in a LD, all without ever having the presence of your waking-life self-awareness (this event happens more often that people imagine, I think).

For B), I would say sure.

That in my mind is exactly what RC's were designed to do; they are not magical "during the dream" techniques as much as they are excellent daytime tools for developing your self-awareness and expectations, so that your mind learns to become interested in questioning its state often enough that you are able to do so during a dream.

Which brings the question, are both methods working on the fundamentals?

I would say no; Method A) seems more a technique that promises to make you lucid without the need for the fundamentals -- a promise which, as you may guess, is one I find quite hollow.

Further questions arise. If I design the test based on the intention of it showing up in my dreams, but I did not need it to become lucid, did the exercise failed?

Nope; the exercise simply wasn't necessary, because you were already mentally prepared.

Once again, I'm at a crossroads. The check might've gotten me lucid without needing it, but not through the way I had foreseen. One could say, who cares, you got lucid. I say repeatability of the result is paramount. When I get lucid this way, I wonder, did the reality check had anything to do with it?

Again, it probably had nothing to do with it. RC's don't make you lucid; you do. They can only confirm what you already suspect. That said, since a steady, meaningful practice of doing RC's during waking-life does help develop that lucid mindset that is so necessary, in a sense the RC's did help, but maybe not the ones you are thinking of.

Pardon if I delved a bit on the DILD side of lucid dreaming.

No problem! This thread was written before the WILD class, and when it was written it was about the fundamentals for all successful LD'ing, regardless of transition type or technique.

Originally Posted by Sageous

On the other hand, there are those of us who see techniques as handy tools to assist a mind already prepared for the transition to lucidity. For instance, if you really look at MILD, you'll see that it is little more than a lot of daywork meant to build your lucid mindset so that you will come to know you are dreaming when the time comes -- all that work with stuff like prospective memory and, yes, state tests, is designed, I think, primarily to get your head in the right place without really letting you know that you are doing that (a bit of brilliance on LaBerge's part, I think). The trouble with MILD, and with my WILD practice here, is that they can take a long time to develop and master, so dreamers tend to get disappointed because they didn't get their results quickly -- and so they go back to the breathless gurus who promise instant results with their techniques, and the dreamer moves farther away from successful consistent lucidity.

I'll agree many of us put too much faith in what happens during the night, that we unknowingly neglect what it is we actually do while awake and how it affects our dreams. I conform to the idea of using the tools in favor of the lucid mindset and not the other way around. I think my next question would be, what does it mean to have a lucid mindset? You describe self-awareness as "being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you", but I fail to understand what that actually means. In trying to interpret, I question, what does self-awareness represents, objectively? What does self-awareness look like, what does it sound like, what does it feel like to touch awareness, to think aware.

These are some of the same questions that come about when say, I meditate. I know your way of developing awareness does not include a full on meditative experience, but I think both methods exemplify how abstract the concept is. If I look closely at things, am I aware? Right now, while typing this sentence, I direct my attention and sense each individual key, is that awareness? I'm actively questioning how to engineer the practice so it reflects a mindful/self-aware state of mind.

I noticed one of your previous posts might've answered the question:

Originally Posted by Sageous

Self-awareness work is almost self-explanatory: Simply do the stuff I said above to Zoth00, and do it constantly. If you're walking around the house, take a moment to notice your surroundings, maybe touch a wall, or note the changes in light, smell, or sounds as you pass from room to room; when you're having a conversation, don't just listen to the other person (as you should be doing anyway!), but listen to yourself as you speak: pay attention to your thoughts, and how closely the words escaping your mouth actually match them, note your body English, your tone of voice, and then take care to notice how the person you are speaking to reacts to your words (if at all); when watching TV or playing a video game, take a moment to wonder at how effectively your brain's been shut down, and maybe set back and try to think about the show or the game, not as entertainment, but as a real unit of your life -- after all, it is sucking up many hours of it, so it should be given the attention it deserves! There are many other things I do, and that you can do, but I think you get the idea: Building self-awareness is simply a long, often exhausting process of fighting the natural tendency to ignore anything that doesn't smell tasty or look sexy, to step above my DNA-based assumption that I am the center of the universe. It takes a lot of discipline to avoid reverting back to the easy -- i.e., losing myself in a TV show, or simply waiting my turn to speak and then spewing words without even wondering from where they came -- so, though the work is simple, doing it can be very difficult, if occasionally impossible, and demands that I step away from the ease of life without awareness, often. Oh, and try to avoid too much of the "deep and meaningful" crap the books are full of as you measure your awareness; it only muddies the water.

Although, oftentimes when I do so, it almost feels like I'm pretending or playing as if aware, which creates doubt. There's nowhere a certainty that says oh, for sure I was aware today.

---

Moving on, I've wanted to ask, what seat does willpower take when compared to the fundamentals, if any.

I ask, because I remember there was someone here, a member, who would swear by lucidity if this person believed he/she could. I think, isn't this what counts? Could awareness and memory simply exist as branching paths, out of many, that stem or lead to a common goal, the power to believe? Is willpower (or mentality however you want to call it) the fundamental of fundamentals, and everything we do functions to convince the mind that we can become lucid? I reason this because dreaming constitutes primarily a mental experience. Therefore, who's to say the mind does not hold the biggest piece of the pie when it comes to lucidity?

Then, in that sense, does it really matter how you get through that convincing? Does it matter whether one becomes lucid because of self-awareness, or memory, or reality checking, and the myriad of ways people have and will set up, in future days? Could it be that we're only deciding on how difficult or how easy we want our lucid dreams to come by?

I have a few more thoughts in regards to the experiment presented before, but I've typed enough already. Plus, I have an interest to see your thoughts on this.

Originally Posted by Silence11

I'll agree many of us put too much faith in what happens during the night, that we unknowingly neglect what it is we actually do while awake and how it affects our dreams. I conform to the idea of using the tools in favor of the lucid mindset and not the other way around. I think my next question would be, what does it mean to have a lucid mindset? You describe self-awareness as "being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you", but I fail to understand what that actually means. In trying to interpret, I question,

These are some of the same questions that come about when say, I meditate. I know your way of developing awareness does not include a full on meditative experience, but I think both methods exemplify how abstract the concept is. If I look closely at things, am I aware? Right now, while typing this sentence, I direct my attention and sense each individual key, is that awareness? I'm actively questioning how to engineer the practice so it reflects a mindful/self-aware state of mind.

I'm a little surprised that someone who practices meditation does not understand what a lucid mindset is (I sure hope you're not just trolling me!). I guess I rarely try to define a lucid mindset because it is basically maintaining that sense of lucidity we have during LD's in waking-life, but suffice it to say that a lucid mindset is one in which a person has at best grasped the fundamentals and can sense his presence in the moment easily, even during a dream, and at the least has an ability to summon up a sense of presence in the moment (aka, self-awareness), and can join that presence with his desire to carry that presence into a dream.

Asking questions like "what does self-awareness represents, objectively? What does self-awareness look like, what does it sound like, what does it feel like to touch awareness?" makes no sense to me, because self-awareness is not a physical product or event; it is a higher condition of consciousness, and represents nothing objectively. In other words, you don't see or touch self-awareness, you experience it; you are it. I have a feeling you already knew this as well, and I hope that something got lost in translation, here...

Be careful not to assume that self-awareness and awareness are the same thing, as they are not. Awareness is simply the condition of being on one's guard, conscious of your surroundings, or simply knowing that there is stuff going on around you; it is something that all living things practice. A plant is aware of where the sun is, for instance, and can turn toward it; a mouse is aware of the slightest sounds or movements around it, at all times, lest a cat eat it. But neither of them are by any measure self-aware. Self-awareness, which certainly can use awareness in its process, is much more: it is a sense of presence in the moment, of knowing that you, as a unique being, are interacting with reality -- aw, hell, let's just cut and paste that phrase one more time:

"Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. Self-awareness is the sense that “I am here, and I am interacting with reality” which is also the sense you want to have during a dream. In other words, it is the most “unnatural” state of consciousness, in that we only invented sentience a short time ago, evolutionarily-speaking. "

At any rate, the concept of self-awareness really is that simple. And it cannot be seen, touched, or be represented objectively. It is a state of mind, not matter... just like lucidity.

...Although, oftentimes when I do so, it almost feels like I'm pretending or playing as if aware, which creates doubt. There's nowhere a certainty that says oh, for sure I was aware today.

That will happen, and the simple act of noticing that you are "playing as if aware" is a hint that your self-awareness is present, if only slightly. And, thought it is easy to confirm you were aware today (i.e., you made it through the day without walking into any walls or driving your car into a tree), there really is no sure way to confirm that you were self-aware today, other that being confident that you made the effort.

---

Moving on, I've wanted to ask, what seat does willpower take when compared to the fundamentals, if any.

I ask, because I remember there was someone here, a member, who would swear by lucidity if this person believed he/she could. I think, isn't this what counts? Could awareness and memory simply exist as branching paths, out of many, that stem or lead to a common goal, the power to believe? Is willpower (or mentality however you want to call it) the fundamental of fundamentals, and everything we do functions to convince the mind that we can become lucid? I reason this because dreaming constitutes primarily a mental experience. Therefore, who's to say the mind does not hold the biggest piece of the pie when it comes to lucidity?

Not only does the mind hold the biggest piece of the pie when it comes to lucidity, it is the pie. In the end, and definitely in the context of LD'ing, you are your mind. To become lucid, you are not convincing your mind to do anything; you are convincing your self. Assuming that there is some other entity "in there" that can be convinced, coerced, or forced by will to allow you to be lucid is to take a step away from lucidity, not toward it -- becoming lucid is a decision you make, and not, ever, the result of some trick or act of willpower you play on a separate mind.

Willpower, and its little brother, focus, is a powerful tool, and can certainly help a dreamer hold her attention on a goal of lucidity. But it cannot cause a lucid dream on its own, because lucidity is the presence of waking-life self-awareness and memory, and if they're not there, willpower or not, then you are not lucid. If I came across a post by this member you mention, I likely wold have suggested that there was something else going on, or that maybe they didn't really understand what it is to be lucid.

So, no, in my mind willpower cannot be the sole source for lucidity, and it is by no means the driving force of the fundamentals (though I have heard it argued well that focus ought to be included in the fundamentals).

Then, in that sense, does it really matter how you get through that convincing? Does it matter whether one becomes lucid because of self-awareness, or memory, or reality checking, and the myriad of ways people have and will set up, in future days? Could it be that we're only deciding on how difficult or how easy we want our lucid dreams to come by?

Of course it matters, because you are not using self-awareness or memory to become lucid -- they are lucidity. They are not techniques, they are the goals of techniques. RC'ing is one of those techniques, and yes, something other than using RC's can be practiced, and yes, other techniques (and machines, and supplements, etc.) will certainly be introduced in the future, but if they are not built to inspire self-awareness and memory, then they will not work, because they are not, by definition, inspiring lucidity.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I'm a little surprised that someone who practices meditation does not understand what a lucid mindset is (I sure hope you're not just trolling me!). I guess I rarely try to define a lucid mindset because it is basically maintaining that sense of lucidity we have during LD's in waking-life, but suffice it to say that a lucid mindset is one in which a person has at best grasped the fundamentals and can sense his presence in the moment easily, even during a dream, and at the least has an ability to summon up a sense of presence in the moment (aka, self-awareness), and can join that presence with his desire to carry that presence into a dream.

Definitely not trolling! You may be surprised that I say these things, but I choose an approach to anything I do or come about with a pinch of skepticism and a desire for proof. And the thing is, there are thousands and hundreds of thousands of different descriptions and claims out there about what it is to be aware. And then there's even more ways, methods, positions and teachings, of how it is that one should meditate, you'll understand my confusion. Or maybe it is that many people keep these things to themselves so it might come as a surprise that I say this, so I do not think my misunderstanding of what it is to have a lucid mindset is uncommon.

But maybe I'm being too dense and I just don't get it yet. Which is the reason for my questions, and I do ask a lot of questions. So, I'm sorry if I'm pestering you too much with question after question after question, but I want to have a complete grasp at these things. Though I understand if you'd want me to stop.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Asking questions like "what does self-awareness represents, objectively? What does self-awareness look like, what does it sound like, what does it feel like to touch awareness?" makes no sense to me, because self-awareness is not a physical product or event; it is a higher condition of consciousness, and represents nothing objectively. In other words, you don't see or touch self-awareness, you experience it; you are it. I have a feeling you already knew this as well, and I hope that something got lost in translation, here... [...] At any rate, the concept of self-awareness really is that simple. And it cannot be seen, touched, or be represented objectively. It is a state of mind, not matter... just like lucidity.

Right, but would you agree it is through the senses we interpret that experience? One could talk about the concept of a table for days to someone who doesn't know what a table is; one could tell them about the experience of it, but unless that individual goes out and sees, or touches the table, there is no understanding, no validity to the experience. Even lucidity follows that same rule; I know what lucidity is because I've felt it, I've seen it with my own eyes, and it can be represented objectively, at least personally. It is apparent how different lucidity is compared to waking reality, compared to non-lucid dreams even, irregardless of how vivid or non-vivid the lucid dream is. It has a very definite feeling I can understand, from within, registered in what it is I saw, heard, touched, smelled, tasted, and every other sense I can think of, even if, I cannot express it in words.

But when describing self-awareness, I realize I have no parameter with which to measure such an experience. There is no comparable feel in memory that tells me about it. It is for that reason, that I explained the practice as if pretending to be aware, without ever knowing if I was truly self-aware or not. I sit and after I feel no difference in a state of mind, except on very specific days. On the contrary, at times I feel anger, frustration, anxiety, and a very strong headache after the fact; but perhaps the revealing of these feelings constitutes proof of said practice.

Originally Posted by Sageous

"Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. Self-awareness is the sense that “I am here, and I am interacting with reality” which is also the sense you want to have during a dream. In other words, it is the most “unnatural” state of consciousness, in that we only invented sentience a short time ago, evolutionarily-speaking. "

I'll keep tabs on these lines every time I meditate.

Originally Posted by Sageous

That will happen, and the simple act of noticing that you are "playing as if aware" is a hint that your self-awareness is present, if only slightly. And, thought it is easy to confirm you were aware today (i.e., you made it through the day without walking into any walls or driving your car into a tree), there really is no sure way to confirm that you were self-aware today, other that being confident that you made the effort.

Well then, that encourages me to continue trying. Although, it still doesn't leave me completely at ease that there might be no way to be sure.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Not only does the mind hold the biggest piece of the pie when it comes to lucidity, it is the pie. In the end, and definitely in the context of LD'ing, you are your mind. To become lucid, you are not convincing your mind to do anything; you are convincing your self. Assuming that there is some other entity "in there" that can be convinced, coerced, or forced by will to allow you to be lucid is to take a step away from lucidity, not toward it -- becoming lucid is a decision you make, and not, ever, the result of some trick or act of willpower you play on a separate mind.

Willpower, and its little brother, focus, is a powerful tool, and can certainly help a dreamer hold her attention on a goal of lucidity. But it cannot cause a lucid dream on its own, because lucidity is the presence of waking-life self-awareness and memory, and if they're not there, willpower or not, then you are not lucid. If I came across a post by this member you mention, I likely wold have suggested that there was something else going on, or that maybe they didn't really understand what it is to be lucid.

So, no, in my mind willpower cannot be the sole source for lucidity, and it is by no means the driving force of the fundamentals (though I have heard it argued well that focus ought to be included in the fundamentals).

Of course it matters, because you are not using self-awareness or memory to become lucid -- they are lucidity. They are not techniques, they are the goals of techniques. RC'ing is one of those techniques, and yes, something other than using RC's can be practiced, and yes, other techniques (and machines, and supplements, etc.) will certainly be introduced in the future, but if they are not built to inspire self-awareness and memory, then they will not work, because they are not, by definition, inspiring lucidity.

Can't disagree with that, you offer great points, and I'll muse over them during the next couple of days and integrate them with what I think is happening. Always glad to read your thoughts on anything Sageous. Hope I didn't annoy you a lot with too many questions. I've reorganized my reality check to focus entirely on self-awareness; we'll see how it goes. If I have anything else to ask, unfortunately, I may or may not feel pushed to prod the old thread again.

Well said, Silence.

I have just one more thought I suggest you consider:

Originally Posted by Silence11

Right, but would you agree it is through the senses we interpret that experience? One could talk about the concept of a table for days to someone who doesn't know what a table is; one could tell them about the experience of it, but unless that individual goes out and sees, or touches the table, there is no understanding, no validity to the experience. Even lucidity follows that same rule; I know what lucidity is because I've felt it, I've seen it with my own eyes, and it can be represented objectively, at least personally. It is apparent how different lucidity is compared to waking reality, compared to non-lucid dreams even, irregardless of how vivid or non-vivid the lucid dream is. It has a very definite feeling I can understand, from within, registered in what it is I saw, heard, touched, smelled, tasted, and every other sense I can think of, even if, I cannot express it in words.

No, I wouldn't say we interpret experience through our senses; rather, we gather the information needed for our minds to do the interpreting, and then, after using things like memory, expectations, emotions, and maybe a bit of spirituality to do the interpreting, the stuff our senses absorb can finally become "experience." In other words, sensory organs only collect and supply information; it is still up to our minds to interpret that information in order to create experience. This is not semantics, I think, and is especially important in lucid dreaming, because in truth you have not seen lucidity with your own eyes, since you were asleep with lids closed with nothing much to look at. You saw, touched, smelled, and tasted nothing at all, at any time in the dream; you only imagined you were doing so, and your mind interpreted that self-constructed imagery... there was nothing being represented objectively; indeed, in a dream your entire world is a subjective event, a universe created by you (not someone or something else) where everything is literally not real, and, when lucid, open to any changes you feel like experiencing -- and those changes will always be right, because your reality, your truth, in a dream, is all yours.

I'm not being snarky here, or trying to play word games with you. I'm trying to make a point: those senses you use in waking-life are generally shut off during dreams. So you haven't seen lucidity with your own eyes at all, you've only experienced the stuff your imagination provided -- only, with lucidity, you were experiencing that imagined world with your waking-life self-awareness there to oversee the interpretation, to do the understanding that, hey, this is a dream. That presence, that ability to know that all this stuff you're "seeing" is completely made up and not a product of any actual sensory information, is what lucidity, and self-awareness, is all about. In a sense, self-awareness allows you to understand that the world you are currently interpreting is "just" a dream, and from there all the wonders of lucid dreaming sprout. And, to hammer that same nail once more, no technique will produce that understanding; you must do this part yourself.

Originally Posted by Sageous

No, I wouldn't say we interpret experience through our senses; rather, we gather the information needed for our minds to do the interpreting, and then, after using things like memory, expectations, emotions, and maybe a bit of spirituality to do the interpreting, the stuff our senses absorb can finally become "experience." In other words, sensory organs only collect and supply information; it is still up to our minds to interpret that information in order to create experience. This is not semantics, I think, and is especially important in lucid dreaming, because in truth you have not seen lucidity with your own eyes, since you were asleep with lids closed with nothing much to look at. You saw, touched, smelled, and tasted nothing at all, at any time in the dream; you only imagined you were doing so, and your mind interpreted that self-constructed imagery... there was nothing being represented objectively; indeed, in a dream your entire world is a subjective event, a universe created by you (not someone or something else) where everything is literally not real, and, when lucid, open to any changes you feel like experiencing -- and those changes will always be right, because your reality, your truth, in a dream, is all yours.

I'm not being snarky here, or trying to play word games with you. I'm trying to make a point: those senses you use in waking-life are generally shut off during dreams. So you haven't seen lucidity with your own eyes at all, you've only experienced the stuff your imagination provided -- only, with lucidity, you were experiencing that imagined world with your waking-life self-awareness there to oversee the interpretation, to do the understanding that, hey, this is a dream. That presence, that ability to know that all this stuff you're "seeing" is completely made up and not a product of any actual sensory information, is what lucidity, and self-awareness, is all about. In a sense, self-awareness allows you to understand that the world you are currently interpreting is "just" a dream, and from there all the wonders of lucid dreaming sprout. And, to hammer that same nail once more, no technique will produce that understanding; you must do this part yourself.

You're right. I was wrong to use interpretation here. But yes, these things are functions of the brain. What I'm trying to get at, is that there is still a form of input that makes that interpretation possible. Yes, our eyes are closed while dreaming, but the brain is still functioning, and the world you see while asleep has to come from somewhere, it does not exist in a vacuum. Everything has a cause and memory plays the main role when sleeping. The point I've been failing to make, I think, is that, until you have encoded a new memory and consolidated it, then you can retrieve it, from within.

To put an example to this train of thought, let's use lucid dreaming. Until I had personally achieved a lucid dream once, I would have never comprehended what it meant to be lucid in a dream. No matter how much I'd read or heard from everyone describing a lucid dream, it would always feel like a strange, foreign thought. When I had that first lucid dream, there was an input, it was interpreted, and there was understanding. I'm missing that input from self-awareness, and if it has already happened, then it was the most subtlest of inputs.

That's why I fail to extract a meaning from your original explanation, about having an effect around you and everything having an effect on you. What effect? I think I'm expecting to get something by practicing self-awareness, a feeling, a knowing. Like if I imagine an apple I get an apple because I already know what an apple is. But to know I had to see the apple first, or eat it. Then, memory did its thing and now I can recall that memory however I want. A is the concept, but you need B in order to get (as in understand) C. I want to get C (self-awareness) but I haven't found the way, and because of that it makes me question if I am doing B (the how) at all. But what is B? There's the issue. So, I "practice" self-awareness and get... nothing; everything stays the same. I feel no different than when I started.

Anyway, I realize now there is no other way this can be conveyed to me by words alone. Doing is the only path to knowledge. I'll figure things out by doing as you recommend.

By the way, maybe I can use that memory of lucidity while in a dream to know what self-awareness means. Like I said, lucidity has its own definite borders, its own volume, its own depth; these are characteristics that my brain has rightfully branded as a lucid dream. And if it is through self-awareness that we get lucid, then lucidity IS self-awareness, right? And so, to put an end and come full circle to the mental gymnastics I've been going about in my head, perhaps I have already answered my original question if I had so much as taken a peak at what was actually happening to me in a lucid dream.

Have a nice weekend Sageous.

Edit: I wanted to be clear that I know, without a doubt, that I have more to learn from Sageous and from my own explorations but wanted to share what I've learned so far.

Silence11 and all,

What a treasure this thread and Sageous is! When I started off practicing the fundamentals, in particularly the self-awareness work Sageous describes, it was without fully understanding if I was doing it correct, but I asked questions and kept at it. I had already gathered back then that Sageous was well respected around here and his advice rang true to me, so that helped me plow ahead.

I believe that I can report that there is a point where you know what self awareness feels like, though it can be fleeting and requires continual work to bring it the the forefront and to strengthen it. Unfortunately it is hard to describe but I believe you will know it when you experience it, assuming you keep up the work required to keep summoning that self awarenesses.

I am far from being self aware most of the time, but at least I feel strongly that I know what it takes to summon that self awareness and to know when it has arrived, even if only for a short visit each time. One remarkable evening before bed it seemed to stick with me for what felt like it was an hour or more and lead to a wonderful night of multiple lucid dreams. Even without longer periods like that, the practices Sageous outlines produce a bolstered self awareness, in waking life and in lucid dreams, that we all should be striving for. I strongly believe that these practices produce lucid dreams where you are fully there in the moment and when you eventually find yourself back in bed, it feels like *you* were transported from one world to another. I definitely still have semi-lucid dreams and dreams about lucid dreaming, but I strongly believe that consistently working on the fundamentals Sageous teaches makes "high level" or truly lucid (strongly self-aware) dreams more frequent.

I have been doing serious wbtb attempts for the last 4 nights, without success yet, and I have spent the last four days catching up on this thread. There is such a treasure trove of information on this thread!

I have a question about maintaining self-awareness through a wbtb attempt. I have been running into this problem at about the 30 min mark of the attempt and I'm not sure what my focus should be.

During the attempt I am repeating my mantra, ignoring noise (with difficulty, I always get to excited the first time I actually experience things that others talk about thinking its cool), "thinking sleepy easygoing thoughts", and trying to visualize the dream I am building expectation of forming (This is a location that I have a memory palace of, find to be a calming place, and can easily visualize being in).

At this point I am really focusing on 1. maintaining self-awareness (repeating mantra) and 2. falling asleep. I always reach this point where I am getting drowsy and maybe skip a breath or two of my mantra as my focus lessons. This is where I don't know what I should be focusing on.

I can easily at this point re-affirm my focus, and increase "wakefulness" and continue to maintain my self awareness for another thirty minutes or so until this cycle repeats itself, but when I do this I never "fall asleep" and the dream has yet to start. Or I can let myself drift off, and ofcourse I end up just falling asleep.

Is the answer more patience? Is this semi-drowsy almost asleep place a good place to be? Also how much effort should I be putting into focusing on visualization? If I do to much visualization it seems to keep me very awake.

I have a question about bringing self-awareness into a dream/dreamlet. So as I am in my LDHSW portion of my wbtb attempt, repeating my mantra and visualizing my expected dream, I eventually do start to experience these dreamlets that others have commented on. I know that they are noise so when I become aware of them I stop focusing on them and let them go down the river and refocus on mantra ect.

I am wondering if this practice is making me reject the dream itself though when it starts to form. Last night I experienced two of these dreamlets that where much more put together and whole than most are, could these have been the beginning of an actual dream?

I rejected them as dreamlets, pulling my awareness off of them and re focusing on mantra, and after 75 mins of wbtb gave up because the dream never formed.

My question is about, leme find the right word, bringing... transferring... updating... including, my new dream experiences into my self awareness. Maybe I can better express it by saying open myself up to and allow the dream to have an influence on me, as I try to recognize my influence on it, and of course recognize that I am present here.

Arg so hard. Is my practice of rejecting the noise stopping the realization of self awareness by my rejecting of the dream scene? For instance: I'm repeating mantra and visualizing and boom dreamlet appears a woman walking towards me handing me a coke, no don't think about it repeat mantra vs. I'm repeating mantra and visualizing and boom interesting a woman is here, hey I am here, what effect is she having on my? What effect could I be having on her ect?

tldr: When do I start including the dreamlet/dream in my self awareness vs rejecting it as noise. Oh god I finally said it in one sentence writing it all out helped my find the question lol.

^^ That's a lot of question, Sangfoot! The funny thing is, based on what you've said in your posts, and what I was able to read between the lines, you'll likely find your answers on your own (that's the patience part, BTW)... but maybe I can throw in a couple of things that'll help your process along a bit:

Originally Posted by Sangfoot

...I can easily at this point re-affirm my focus, and increase "wakefulness" and continue to maintain my self awareness for another thirty minutes or so until this cycle repeats itself, but when I do this I never "fall asleep" and the dream has yet to start. Or I can let myself drift off, and ofcourse I end up just falling asleep.

Is the answeru more patience? Is this semi-drowsy almost asleep place a good place to be? Also how much effort should I be putting into focusing on visualization? If I do to much visualization it seems to keep me very awake.

Yes, this is probably one of those "more patience" situations, but let's ignore that for a sec:

You've run into, I think, a spot where priorities must be considered. Yes, it's important to maintain your waking-life self-awareness throughout your WILD dive, but you must also maintain a balance with the natural forces that are trying to get you to sleep (because, of course, sleep is a major goal in all this). If you discover that your focus on "staying awake" is stomping down hard on your body's interest in falling asleep, then it might be time to pursue a little balance:

Next time this happens, and it will, consider letting your focus on self-awareness slip a little... not too much, of course! Maintain your mantra, and keep your thoughts aimed toward your upcoming dream, but let the need to be "awake" become a bit less important. Let sleep, and the need for sleep, work its way into the process; feel drowsy, and accept that feeling as a good thing... give your body an incentive to lapse back into sleep. That mantra, along with the other stuff you brought with you on your dive (like expectations, and all that daywork), should act as an anchor to hold you steady even if you temporarily lose a bit of awareness. Later, after you've surely fallen asleep and a dream has begun (and you're still repeating your mantra, and -- even if only vaguely -- you know you are making your transition into sleep and dream), you should be able to recharge your self-awareness.

So with a little practice, you should find yourself surviving this critical moment and allowing sleep to ensue without losing that self-awareness to which you're determined to cling; and if you do lose it, you can probably count on a DILD shortly, just because your head is so securely in the right place (and there's nothing wrong with with a DILD!)!

Originally Posted by Sangfoot

tldr: When do I start including the dreamlet/dream in my self awareness vs rejecting it as noise. Oh god I finally said it in one sentence writing it all out helped my find the question lol.

Yeah, that was an excellent tl;dr!

I guess a good way to go here is this: if you are able to visualize, and it seems you are, then go ahead and let that dreamlet become your dream.

Yes, generally dreamlets are just so much noise, and ought to be ignored because they aren't really dreams, but you still may be able to use them to form a real dream. In other words, instead of wondering if it is a real dream or just noise, just let that dreamlet happen, and look to it to expand into a more substantial dream.

For instance, if your dreamlet is, say, a crying child (or just the sound of a crying child), use your visualization skills to build a scene around that child, perhaps put her into a bedroom buried under her covers with a storm raging outside the window you've placed on a wall. That's a very simple scene, but by the time you're comforting the scared kid your dreaming mind should have caught up with you and has likely already begun to create a world outside that little room. As an added bonus, if it was never a dreamlet at all, and your dream had actually begun, your actions will only land you deeper into your new dream... either way you win!

Not only that, but if everything fails you'll just find yourself awake in bed, which is where you would've been anyway!...just start the whole process over again, as you've already been doing... there's that pesky "patience" bit again, I suppose...

I guess the bottom line here is this: if you are unsure if certain imagery is a dreamlet or a dream, don't worry about defining it -- just work with it regardless of its nature to turn it into a "real" dream.

tl;dr: Mind your priorities and let your body fall asleep, even if it means sacrificing a bit of self-awareness. If you aren't sure if a dreamlet might really be a dream, then work with it to form an actual dream and nudge your dreaming mind to work with you.

I wanted to add to what I said above that your recommendation, Sageous, to check out Liddybug's thread https://www.dreamviews.com/f19/clear...ective-124884/ (mentioned in OP of this thread) was a great one. It has been an integral part of how I do my self awareness work and I thank you for that and all of the great info in this treasure trove of a thread.

By the way, I read your "tl;dr" above quickly before bed (read the rest this morning) and it came to mind and came in handy after my WBTB. I worked with what I thought was dreamlets and got a full fledged dream with my awareness intact.

Just a quick question, but I'm open to as much advice as you'd like to give. I'm wondering if I was likely feeling the beginning stages of REM atonia last night and perhaps already in REM. I've had what I think was true sleep paralysis once, maybe a few times (not ruling out a dream about SP the other times), but last night I rolled over a few times and noticed my body was feeling a little bit heavy when rolling over. I had no problem rolling over but it did feel like I was shaking my muscles back awake a little bit like I was on the verge of REM atonia. Do you get that? It made me wonder if maybe I was having a dream of trying to get to sleep and was already in REM. Shortly after this and the dreamlet-play I was in a more traditional dream scene, lucid.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

Just a quick question, but I'm open to as much advice as you'd like to give. I'm wondering if I was likely feeling the beginning stages of REM atonia last night and perhaps already in REM. I've had what I think was true sleep paralysis once, maybe a few times (not ruling out a dream about SP the other times), but last night I rolled over a few times and noticed my body was feeling a little bit heavy when rolling over. I had no problem rolling over but it did feel like I was shaking my muscles back awake a little bit like I was on the verge of REM atonia. Do you get that? It made me wonder if maybe I was having a dream of trying to get to sleep and was already in REM. Shortly after this and the dreamlet-play I was in a more traditional dream scene, lucid.

Sure, you could have been experiencing the onset of REM Atonia, or just the deep relaxation that can precede sleep. Yes, I've experienced such sensations many times during WILD dives, but just chalked them up as witnessing the stuff that goes on whenever I go to sleep (big surprise there, huh?). Though REM Atonia usually does begin pretty much at the same time you dream, I have found that it can and often does start before your dreaming begins.

I of course can't know for sure, but I'm guessing that you were not already in REM, since that rolling-over scenario seems an odd one for your dreaming mind to conjure. So you likely weren't dreaming about rolling over, but you simply happened to do your rolling right when your WILD transition was beginning.

Sorry for the delay in responding, and also for the sloppiness of this response; time is short today...

Thank you Sageous, I definitely value your time. I am going back over your memory thread again. It is way too easy to forget how fundamental that is!