What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

**Sageous** · 03-26-2014 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Nailler

I've been puzzling over this for a while. If I catch a DEILD at the end of the first or second sleep cycle, when I wake up naturally, I tend to have very stable, vivid, but relatively short LD adventures.

That would be a puzzler, I think, given the rule of thumb about when to WILD -- I rule I obviously agree with! Here are a couple of thoughts that might help:

First, we are all different, and rules are meant to be broken. It could well be that your REM periods are more frequent early on, which does happen. My wife, for instance, is in full-on REM almost immediately, and her NREM tends to occur much later (she's a bit narcoleptic, though).

Next, and more likely, you might be waking up in the midst of a REM period. In this case it would make a lot of sense that your dreams are short but clear, because the REM period is short, but the depth of sleep a bit more sound, and that depth enables stability inasmuch as your body is more interested in staying asleep and vividness because your dreaming mind is the center of your universe (I also think it tends to do its best work early on, but that could just be me).

Finally, your DEILD might not be a DEILD but a DILD. It might feel like a DEILD, perhaps because you are returning to your last dream and transition seems instant, but you might have lost lucidity during the NREM break and picked it right up when REM next started. Be assured that this is just a guess; I'm not making an argument here, and don't begin to have enough information to tell you for sure that those DEILD's weren't DEILD's. But it could help the puzzle, and, of course, who cares if it's a DEILD or DILD? You're still lucid, right?

On the other hand, when I have a successful WILD or DEILD after a forth or fifth sleep cycle WBTB, my dreams tend to be much longer, but all over the place... hard to control...in and out of lucidity.

I've assumed the problem is that I'm just not tired enough after four sleep cycles, but maybe it's something else. Maybe later attempts are a more difficult balancing act.

I think much of that balancing act does indeed come from the fact that during the late periods of sleep you are much closer to wakefulness than earlier on (aka not tired enough). Also there is more going on at that time, including consecutive REM periods, your body going about waking up, and physical world sensations (like your sleeping body) are beginning to intrude. I also have a feeling that, after many hours of churning out dreams, your unconscious has simply run out of schemata for the night, so dreams become particularly jumbled and initially difficult to control.

Of course, most of this stuff also explains why lucidity works so well after several hours of sleep. For instance: a state of near-wakefulness is a good place to be if you're trying to maintain self-awareness; you can run for an hour or more of uninterrupted REM; and you may have a better opportunity to pursue your dream goals because your unconscious might be a bit more malleable.

So, though that balance might be difficult to maintain, managing it would be most helpful for successful LD'ing... if only because you're more awake, and have more time to work with your lucidity. Of course, that doesn't mena you cannot continue to enjoy lucidity earlier in your sleep cycle!

The "lucid NREM void" experience is intriguing. Is WILDing upon first going to bed the usual way to experience the void? Have you ever seen what lies beyond the void?

Yes, doing a WILD early on is the way to explore NREM/delta sleep. Not only have I wandered into delta, I even started a thread about it some time ago, called Exploring Delta Sleep; you might want to check it out!

**FryingMan** · 03-26-2014 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by StephL

Great Fryingman!!

May I ask, how your mix concerning nootropica was over that time?
I believe I have read, you started experimenting - how are your experiences - clear connection to the latest improvement overall?

My mix has been: nothing. Just intense day work, and adding in some autosuggestion meditation. I haven't touched a LD supplement since February 25th, after which I had a nearly 3-week dry period, followed by 7 LDs in 10 days during the competition. I'm not sure of course, but I partially attributed that dry period to a desensitization of neurotransmitters due to the supplements. I'd really rather have great LDs without them, too, so I'm going to stay away from them for a while.

I'm now in a period of really really great sleep, for the last 4 nights or so, and that's fabulous, but I barely wake up before out-of-bed time now, and while I have decent memory of a number of dreams still, my in-dream awareness has not even gotten close to LD-level since the competition, and the dream scene memories are short without transitions. I have upped the intensity level of my exercise program in the last couple of weeks and am keeping a much more regular sleep schedule. I may need to really do WBTB if my sleep continues to be so deep.

Too light sleep, too deep sleep, yet another balance to master....

**StephL** · 03-26-2014 12:35 PM

Okaay - so it is more to have a REM at hand than to have a long one at hand - I see.
I tried last night after 3 h but unfortunately I was so tired, that I didn't hold out for long (10 min. or so only).
So there is another argument - I will fiddle about with it - maybe I find my sweet spot, where I have the patience and will and am able to fall asleep anyway.

So sweet - I will be on the lookout for a little monkey with toolbelt, Naill!

Aand wow Fryingman!!
So I somehow mixed something up - good for you!

**FryingMan** · 03-26-2014 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by StephL

Okaay - so it is more to have a REM at hand than to have a long one at hand - I see.
I tried last night after 3 h but unfortunately I was so tired, that I didn't hold out for long (10 min. or so only).
So there is another argument - I will fiddle about with it - maybe I find my sweet spot, where I have the patience and will and am able to fall asleep anyway.

So sweet - I will be on the lookout for a little monkey with toolbelt, Naill!

Aand wow Fryingman!!
So I somehow mixed something up - good for you!

With falling asleep quickly it's worth to try something like FILD (and of course DEILD). My issue is that I've not been noticing any wakings prior to about 6th-7th hour, or even later. I started the "I wake up after every dream" intention again to try to grab some awareness when heading back to sleep, so far it's been "lights out" all night long for most of the last week.

**StephL** · 03-26-2014 01:41 PM

Ah - we will eventually get there!!

**Nailler** · 03-27-2014 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Sageous

Next, and more likely, you might be waking up in the midst of a REM period.

Thanks for your insight, Sageous. I do think that's the case. I do tend to wake up briefly at the end of sleep cycles, but for DEILDING I use auto-suggestion to wake up from a dream, so there is a difference.

I can see how the balance thing is more important in later cycles. Have to work on that.

Yes, doing a WILD early on is the way to explore NREM/delta sleep. Not only have I wandered into delta, I even started a thread about it some time ago, called Exploring Delta Sleep; you might want to check it out!

Great! Will check that thread out.

Niall

**FryingMan** · 03-27-2014 11:58 AM

Formal WILD attempt this morning. I've been sleeping reeeeeeealllly deeply this last week, after the competition. Sleeping right through to out-of-bed time or close to it, not noticing middle of the night wakings. Decent recall given the only one or two noticed wakings but not approaching lucid levels of awareness.

Last night saw wife and son off on a short trip (2 more solo nights means two more WILD chances tonight and Friday night) this morning, upon BTB I had slept maybe 5 hours or so. I kept a mantra going, alternating between "I'm dreaming" and an abbreviation of the name of the place I wanted to start the dream. Felt like not making much progress towards sleep, some annoying body pains (getting old sucks), so I "aimed" a bit more towards sleep still with the mantra going, letting go of some awareness, and eventually fell unconsciously asleep. Which is my preference, in general, since I dreamt a bunch more, and the dreams were for the first time in 5 days very close to lucidity levels of awareness, including knowledge of who I am, and real memories from my past of people (mixed in with a few fake memories provided by DCs, darn them, "Oh so you were accepted to Florida State?" "Uh, oh yeah..." [but I didn't remember sending in the acceptance letter, I'd better do that fast!]).

I'm noticing that close-to-lucidity dreams are less bizarre and wacky and more just walking around interacting with people and places like in waking life. Maybe with the notion of "hey this is a high hill I could use this to practice my flying" sprinkled here and there.

Another attempt tomorrow! I may (shudder) set an alarm to make sure I get up. Gotta grab the solo bed time where I can, though, as it's pretty rare.

**HanZartaC** · 05-06-2014 04:00 PM

Hello!
I have been attempting WILD for a couple of weeks now. At first, the issue was timing. I have now dealt with that issue. Five hours is perfect for me. I am sleepy, yet aware and remember a dream or two depending on my recall. Now my issue is staying awake. I have used different anchors. Last night I tried something I learned from sivason, counting to 20, drifting off a little, then returning to counting. I fell asleep after drifting off for the third time. I think I need a mantra instead. I have chosen "Remember" or maybe "Remember to Remember" because I am doing some prospective memory mantras during my WBTB as well. Do you think this will work? Do you think saying this mantra in my head at every breath will keep my mind aware?

Thank you in advance.

**Sageous** · 05-06-2014 05:27 PM

^^ Sure, that could work.

A mantra combined with counting and drifting could be just the balance you need to "hold on" while your body returns to sleep. "Remember" is a mantra I often use myself, though for different reasons, and it has worked quite well for me; "Remember to remember" might be a bit much, because it is grammatically complicated and might lead to confusion as sleep approaches. And yes, timing your mantra with your breathing is an excellent idea, even when you are repeating it silently.

Be sure to let us know if/when this works!

**HanZartaC** · 05-07-2014 03:43 PM

Okay so I was going to attempt a WILD last night. I set the alarm to wake me up after five hours. I was all ready for a WILD and looked forward to trying "Remember" as my mantra. So I woke up, what time is it? 6AM! Darn I slept through the alarm. I guess I'll have to wait with results. I will make another attempt tonight though. I will try to see if I can adjust the alarm a little bit. I must've been sleeping very deeply/heavily. I will post the results tomorrow.

**Senju** · 05-07-2014 08:26 PM

When I attempt WILD I ALWAYS get this very weird hallucination, or sensation, I don't know what to call it, that someone or something, is slowly turning my head to the left, then to right and so on. It's not just that, it's like a wave of water is slowly rolling/gently pushes over my left side of the head and my head turns to the right, then it mimics the movement on the right side of my head, and my head turns to the left, and this keeps happening

My head does not litteraly move, but it feels extremely real. Quite hard to relax while I feel this. Maybe this is a sign that I'm close to succeeding with the WILD?

Anyone that can relate?

Edit: I'm new to performing this technique so maybe this is a normal feeling

Edit2: I know hallucinations often are a part of WILD, but this one alerts my whole body and is so real it basically destroys my WILD attempt

**Sageous** · 05-08-2014 04:25 AM

^^ Yes, Senju, you probably were close!

I would guess that that stuff you felt were hypnagogic or hypnopompic imagery, or in other words just more of the noise that can be encountered during a WILD dive. It likely was just your conscious witnessing of the normal things that go on while you fall asleep.

The tough part here is that there is little you can do about these sensations, except your best to ignore them (or at least keep them from becoming important). Fortunately, if you know these things are just noise, with good mental prep and some experience, you should be able to endure them without snapping awake. So just learn, over time, to not care about the noise and you will likely make it that last short step to your dream!

Also, this noise is not a requirement for WILD, so try to be ready for it, but don't expect it, as there might be plenty of WILD dives in your future with no noise at all!

I go a little further on this subject in the Notes about the Noise session of my WILD class ... you might want to check it out if you haven't already.

Thanks for sharing, and good luck with your next attempt!

**Senju** · 05-08-2014 06:47 AM

Thanks for replying Sageous!

I will do a good amount of mental prep and tell myself that this is just noise and not to care for my next attempt

I will ofcourse read this, every bit of information is more than welcome, thank you!

And good luck with your next WILD!

**Senju** · 05-08-2014 07:01 AM

Read the text and I like your opinion on how we should treat and value the "noise " and that our intention is to enter a dream lucid, not to long for the sensations and vibrations et al

You brought up great arguments and information, thanks!

**HanZartaC** · 05-08-2014 08:32 PM

So last night I tried the WILD again. I woke up pretty tired after ~5hrs. I did some prospective memory exercises and went back to bed. I started repeating "Remember" internally on every exhale. After a very short while I started hearing auditory hallucinations. I heard a kind of chime in the wind. I tried to ignore it and pretend it was just the wind. After a short while, I fell asleep, unconsciously. So I failed, even though I repeated the mantra I fell asleep. What did I do wrong?

**FryingMan** · 05-08-2014 08:55 PM

^^ I don't know if "you did something wrong" is the best way to put it. I think "you missed" is more appropriate. Like learning archery, you may know everything you need to know, you just need more practice coordinating your physical and mental faculties to find the right balance and "hit the bullseye." You should not be upset about missing, the more you practice the more you should get closer to the goal, if you follow the fundamentals.

**Sageous** · 05-08-2014 09:39 PM

FryingMan nailed it, HanZartaC.

Sometimes you can do everything right and still not get there; that may have been the only problem.

You might brush up on your daytime mental prep as well; stronger expectations or perhaps an interest in performing a RRC might be just the nudge you need at times like this.

But, as FryingMan said, your attempt seemed like a good one -- no mistakes, just bad luck. So put it behind you and start thinking, "Next time!"

**FryingMan** · 05-09-2014 07:23 PM

A familiar experience: dozing, between 7-8 hrs after bed, I dreamt some short scenes, caught myself at one point getting the "full body buzz" effect falling asleep, started feeling my dream hands detaching from the waking hands and drifting a bit, I tried remaining calm, but it did not go anywhere after the buzz dissipated. Another case of "no dreamable REM" left perhaps? Getting too excited/perked up from noticing the noise? Trying just to catch the moment. Certainly would probably get better results earlier, @ 5hrs most likely since I tend to wake with a lot of recall at 6 hrs commonly.

**Sageous** · 05-09-2014 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by FryingMan

... Another case of "no dreamable REM" left perhaps?

Yup.

Getting too excited/perked up from noticing the noise?

Yup.

Certainly would probably get better results earlier, @ 5hrs most likely since I tend to wake with a lot of recall at 6 hrs commonly.

And yup.

... Life is good when the questions come with their own, correct, answers!

Next time, FryingMan!

**Senju** · 05-10-2014 07:28 PM

Tried ''WILDing'' last night, was going good until SP started creeping, I then started to vizualise my own room, as a place where I would start my dream in. This is where I fell asleep, I woke up later but could not recall having any dreams, looked at the time, and realized I had almost slept through one REM-cycle (I guessed, since they are around 90 minutes long).
Was a bit drousy and wanted to stand up to stretch a bit and then go for another WILD, but I realized my left arm was in the state of sleep paralysis. It felt like my left arm had been replaced with an anchor

So, I could move everything normal except my arm. Arm meaning slightly above the armpit/shoulder/delt

Took 5 minutes before SP started to fade.

I did not know that you could have SP in just one part of your body, I thought since I woke up during a REM-cycle, my whole body would be in a state of SP.

I did not experience any fear or things like that, only pain (?) You see, my left arm was lying just above my head. The area between my shoulder/delt and where the SP started, so to say, was radiating pain :p Any experience on this or advice, info. ?

Thanks in advance

**Sageous** · 05-10-2014 09:46 PM

^^ I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like your arm simply "fell asleep." This is a pretty common event that has more to do with pinched neural pathways, perhaps caused by your arm being over your head, than it does to do with SP or sleep at all. I wouldn't give it much thought.

Also, there is no reason to assume that you will be in REM atonia (aka SP) if you wake during a REM cycle. Your body is designed to wake fully regardless of where in your sleep cycle you might be; conditions like SP are actually extremely rare. And of course I highly recommend that you try to keep the importance of noise like SP to a minimum!

**Senju** · 05-10-2014 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like your arm simply "fell asleep." This is a pretty common event that has more to do with pinched neural pathways, perhaps caused by your arm being over your head, than it does to do with SP or sleep at all. I wouldn't give it much thought.

Also, there is no reason to assume that you will be in REM atonia (aka SP) if you wake during a REM cycle. Your body is designed to wake fully regardless of where in your sleep cycle you might be; conditions like SP are actually extremely rare. And of course I highly recommend that you try to keep the importance of noise like SP to a minimum!

Yeah, that's probably what happened

Oh, I did not know that :p

Yes ofcourse

Edit: As I think about it, when your arm ''sleeps'' should I not be able to still move? I mean, when my arm was in this state I could not move it from it's place, or my body, since my arm was in a way ''stuck to the bed''

Still, you may be right, but I've never experienced such a strong case of pinched neural pathways.

Edit2: As to why I was interested in SP is because I read Empedocles article about his technique to attempt and succeed with a WILD. http://www.dreamviews.com/wiki/User-...WILD-Technique
His WILD technique revolves around focusing on your head/skull and reaching a state of sleep paralysis, and I'm open minded and unexperienced so why not give it a try

**StephL** · 05-10-2014 11:00 PM

No - sometimes, when your arm "falls asleep" it can also result in your motor controls failing - I had that with a leg once after sitting on it stupidly and crashed to the ground, when trying to stand up - that's rare, but normal - don't put it there, next time!

**Senju** · 05-10-2014 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by StephL

No - sometimes, when your arm "falls asleep" it can also result in your motor controls failing - I had that with a leg once after sitting on it stupidly and crashed to the ground, when trying to stand up - that's rare, but normal - don't put it there, next time!

I see, that makes sense, but I did not put it there

Woke up like that :p

**Eamo24** · 05-11-2014 05:01 PM

I attempted a WILD recently; I think it was very close this time:

I attempted it late in the morning. I waited for some dreamlets to appear, and began to passively observe them. I used a simple mantra to help stay focused and also kept reminding myself of what I was doing to maintain self-awareness. After a while, the dreamlets became more enveloping, as if it was turning into full scenes and places. To help the process, I also tried imagining that I was back in the last dream I had, or tried just imagining new places and scenes.

After about 30 minutes of passively observing the HI, there were fleeting moments of extreme clarity and some *very* brief moments where I actually felt like I was lucid in a dream. These moments didn’t last very long but they did get more frequent.

The whole thing lasted about 40 minutes, before I decided to just get up; I wasn’t sure if I could get back to sleep or if I could get any further with the process.

Do you think I was close to a lucid dream on this attempt, and would you recommend anything? Also, is 40 minutes too long for an attempt like this? Thanks in advance.