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    Thread: What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

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      What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

      Please use this thread to let us know how your WILD attempts worked for you. Be sure to include any questions, hazards, revelations, cool experiences you might have encountered during your dive.

      Once posted, we can discuss what went right/wrong with your attempt, find things that were not included in the class, or just offer some oft-needed moral support!
      Sydney, Ctharlhie, CJC and 4 others like this.

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      I'll start us off with a recent attempt:

      This was a very successful WILD, with one glaring exception. I held onto my awareness throughout the falling asleep process, maintaining a steady mantra (“remember”), and even literally talking myself through brief periods of vibrations and hypnagogia (I did not detect, or rather didn’t care about discovering, any SP). I smoothly “emerged” into the air, floating above a quiet pastoral setting, as I often do after WILD.

      Now here’s the part I forgot: Normally I gather my self and remember my plans and intentions during the quiet float above green hillsides. This time, though, I inexplicably landed, and found myself in a full-blown dream which I can’t quite remember, save that I awoke from the dream clutching a couple of small stones (green granite, color and texture-wise) in my hand. I was amazed, and leapt from my bed to tell someone. By the time I found my brother in another room, the rocks had multiplied to a small pile on the grass carpet of my huge (arena-sized) living room. By the time my wife showed up on her bicycle my brain finally started functioning -- wait a minute, I thought, my brother is in another state, my living room is not this big, there’s no grass in it, and for that matter my bedroom is nowhere near it; I was still dreaming. I cried out in frustration, because I was so happy that I had finally, if accidentally, brought something back from the dreaming, only to discover I was still dreaming.

      I quickly “woke” up, to find myself in my bed. My body didn’t seem to want to move, so I assumed that I wasn’t quite awake yet, and would soon settle into another dream. Unfortunately, that “awakening” was apparently FA #2, and I dropped not into the highly lucid dream I expected but a long, very vivid “someone else’s” dream about a small toy (like a transparent plastic orange gumbie man) that crawled out of a toybox in the house I was in and transformed into an innocent-looking alien girl. What followed was very vivid and a lot of fun, but it definitely was not lucid.

      The lesson I begrudgingly handed myself after I finally woke up was that I had done everything correctly in this WILD save one thing: I had forgotten to form a dream before I went to sleep. I was also very lax in setting intention, which only compounded matters.

      So what likely happened was that I successfully WILD’ed, but then was floating over a blank slate (that pastoral scene) with nothing to build on, not even a conscious intention to make the dream go away (which I do often). Well, that floating sans waking consciousness or dream spells “vacuum,” which was quickly filled with a non-lucid dream followed by a FA. I would also guess that that NLD came long after the WILD attempt, given the length of my dream (short) as compared to the time I was asleep (long).

      That's it ... for now!
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      Very interesting. So you typically have HI that is a green, pastoral scene? It's just I've noticed mine are always (or have been for the past 5) an empty room in a house.

      My style of WILDing is slightly odd, in that I don't consciously try to WILD. I just set my intentions on realizing I'm dreaming and sometimes (it's not hugely reliable) I wake myself up abruptly and find myself in SP. At this point, however, I can immediately observe some very vivid HI. The past 4 times it faded after a while but today I managed to sustain it and have my very first lucid dream. As I said, I've done this about 5 times in the past few days and as it got me my first LD I'm trying to work out how I do it.

      My experience was somewhat similar to yours in that I quite promptly had a FA after this, which I identified after a little while (before physically waking up).

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      Quote Originally Posted by Nivv View Post
      Very interesting. So you typically have HI that is a green, pastoral scene? It's just I've noticed mine are always (or have been for the past 5) an empty room in a house.
      Actually, for me it was more of a post-HI arrival in the dream itself. The pastoral scene is based on time-worn expectation rather than conversion of HI (I don't get much visual HI to work with, in general). I think your empty room might be something similar -- not HI, but simply the place your dreaming mind presents to you, for lack of anything else (you might want to review WILD Session 4:... Forming Your Dreams, where I mention that your dreaming mind mind not be prepared for your WILD, and so can't give you much of a dream.

      My style of WILDing is slightly odd, in that I don't consciously try to WILD. I just set my intentions on realizing I'm dreaming and sometimes (it's not hugely reliable) I wake myself up abruptly and find myself in SP. At this point, however, I can immediately observe some very vivid HI. The past 4 times it faded after a while but today I managed to sustain it and have my very first lucid dream. As I said, I've done this about 5 times in the past few days and as it got me my first LD I'm trying to work out how I do it.
      That is an odd style! I'm not sure if you're going to enjoy very consistent results with it... however, you seem to have good mental prep, and that is the real priority in any technique.

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      Ha, this is actually really funny. This morning, before I even read session six, I had a WILD by accident. I was just laying there, and suddenly I was standing up instead. I walked around in the dark, jumping around on some stuff on the ground. A wooden beam was one of them. It was strange, because I knew where everything was, even though it was pitch black. Eventually, I found a door. I stepped through it and I was in an outside landscape. I woke up shortly after, though.

      I gotta say, at the very least, this is good for motivation.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Frobthebuilder View Post
      Ha, this is actually really funny. This morning, before I even read session six, I had a WILD by accident. I was just laying there, and suddenly I was standing up instead. I walked around in the dark, jumping around on some stuff on the ground. A wooden beam was one of them. It was strange, because I knew where everything was, even though it was pitch black. Eventually, I found a door. I stepped through it and I was in an outside landscape. I woke up shortly after, though.

      I gotta say, at the very least, this is good for motivation.
      Though it was certainly good for motivation, I don't think this was a WILD, because by definition they cannot be accidental -- you must retain your waking awareness from beginning (lying down) to end (the dream) in order for the LD to be "Wake Initiated." A WILD is not something you can find yourself suddenly "in." This was more likely a DILD, perhaps with a slight twist because of your state of mind, the unformed condition of the dream, and the timing, but that by no means makes it a bad thing! A LD is a LD, after all, and should never be sneezed at, regardless of its origin!

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Though it was certainly good for motivation, I don't think this was a WILD, because by definition they cannot be accidental -- you must retain your waking awareness from beginning (lying down) to end (the dream) in order for the LD to be "Wake Initiated." A WILD is not something you can find yourself suddenly "in." This was more likely a DILD, perhaps with a slight twist because of your state of mind, the unformed condition of the dream, and the timing, but that by no means makes it a bad thing! A LD is a LD, after all, and should never be sneezed at, regardless of its origin!
      Agreed. Although it's kind of strange, this same thing has happened to me before. It does seem like going straight from being awake to a dream. I guess it's different, though.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Frobthebuilder View Post
      Agreed. Although it's kind of strange, this same thing has happened to me before. It does seem like going straight from being awake to a dream. I guess it's different, though.
      That doesn't make it a bad thing!

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      So I went to WILD (after WBTB, of course) and tried KingYoshi's WILD technique. I did the flex freeze, then I just lay there, repeating my mantra after each breath. Before I knew it I snapped back into awareness. I had drifted off into my thoughts (I always do that.. :/). So I rolled over. Somehow I forgot about repeating my mantra and woke up about an hour later regretting it.

      So, do you think more RRC's could help me at this point? It seems I need more awareness, because I don't really "realize" when my mind wanders. I guess my WBTB didn't wake me up enough?
      Follow your dreams.


      DILD - 50 | DEILD - 3 | WILD - 1 | MILD - 1


      Previous Goal: Air bend
      Main Goal: Find my Dream Guide


      Spoiler for Goals:
      Goals: [X] Fly. [ ] Have a shared dream with someone. [ ] Water bend. [X] Air bend. [ ] Run at top speeds. [ ] Find my Dream Guide. [ ] Go to a fantasy ball. [ ] Meet Kiriguya (SAO) [ ] Meet Korra. (from LoK) [ ] Walk through a mirror. [X] Eat something. [ ] Run alongside a dinosaur.

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      I had some success, I guess it wasn't really a WILD, maybe a partial WILD. It was a great lucid nonetheless and I managed to complete the advanced Task of the Month.

      I posted about it in my dream journal and I'd love some feedback: 20th June 2012 - Seventh Lucid Dream [Partial WILD & Advanced Task of the Month] - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
      Check out my DreamViews Podcast with OpheliaBlue!

      The best reason for having dreams is that in dreams no reasons are necessary.

      No sailor controls the sea. Only a foolish sailor would say such a thing. Similarly, no lucid dreamer controls the dream.
      Like a sailor on the sea, we lucid dreamers direct our perceptual awareness within the larger state of dreaming.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sydney View Post
      So I went to WILD (after WBTB, of course) and tried KingYoshi's WILD technique. I did the flex freeze, then I just lay there, repeating my mantra after each breath. Before I knew it I snapped back into awareness. I had drifted off into my thoughts (I always do that.. :/). So I rolled over. Somehow I forgot about repeating my mantra and woke up about an hour later regretting it.

      So, do you think more RRC's could help me at this point? It seems I need more awareness, because I don't really "realize" when my mind wanders. I guess my WBTB didn't wake me up enough?

      More RRC's -- or fewer but more carefully considered RRC's, I suppose -- will always help. But so might one other thing: don't roll over!

      I have no idea why it matters (I'm sure folks in this very class probably do know -- sing out if so!), but holding your position steady -- not even moving a hand to itch your nose, if possible -- is extremely important. It seems that if you roll over during WILD you are doomed to fall asleep, every time (I just did that this morning, as a matter of fact, and wound up in a very long extremely un-lucid dream, with no escape).

      So try to hold still, Sydney, it matters! Sometimes the act of concentrating on repeating that mantra helps you lose interest in moving, so you might work on keeping it going longer...all these pieces really need to be in place for a successful WILD...
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      Quote Originally Posted by RareCola View Post
      I had some success, I guess it wasn't really a WILD, maybe a partial WILD. It was a great lucid nonetheless and I managed to complete the advanced Task of the Month.

      I posted about it in my dream journal and I'd love some feedback: 20th June 2012 - Seventh Lucid Dream [Partial WILD & Advanced Task of the Month] - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
      My God in Heaven! Two "Rollovers" in a row! Hold still, people!

      Seriously, RareCola, it might not have been a WILD (definitely DILD, I think), but lucid is lucid, right? Who cares once you're in? Excellent dream too, BTW: nice to see your memory running at full tilt there, and that the stuff you picked up in the class stayed with you straight into dreamland. An excellent reward for nice work, I think, even if it wasn't quite a WILD.

      Next time...

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      My God in Heaven! Two "Rollovers" in a row! Hold still, people!

      Seriously, RareCola, it might not have been a WILD (definitely DILD, I think), but lucid is lucid, right? Who cares once you're in? Excellent dream too, BTW: nice to see your memory running at full tilt there, and that the stuff you picked up in the class stayed with you straight into dreamland. An excellent reward for nice work, I think, even if it wasn't quite a WILD.

      Next time...
      Haha yea, I'm not quite sure why I rolled over. My fully awake mind knows that it's not the best thing to do, because of the whole rollover signal system. Holding still wasn't an issue at all for the first 35 minutes until I rolled over. Next time I won't move!
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      Check out my DreamViews Podcast with OpheliaBlue!

      The best reason for having dreams is that in dreams no reasons are necessary.

      No sailor controls the sea. Only a foolish sailor would say such a thing. Similarly, no lucid dreamer controls the dream.
      Like a sailor on the sea, we lucid dreamers direct our perceptual awareness within the larger state of dreaming.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      More RRC's -- or fewer but more carefully considered RRC's, I suppose -- will always help. But so might one other thing: don't roll over!

      I have no idea why it matters (I'm sure folks in this very class probably do know -- sing out if so!), but holding your position steady -- not even moving a hand to itch your nose, if possible -- is extremely important. It seems that if you roll over during WILD you are doomed to fall asleep, every time (I just did that this morning, as a matter of fact, and wound up in a very long extremely un-lucid dream, with no escape).

      So try to hold still, Sydney, it matters! Sometimes the act of concentrating on repeating that mantra helps you lose interest in moving, so you might work on keeping it going longer...all these pieces really need to be in place for a successful WILD...
      Thanks Sageous. Okay, so to get this straight; I just concentrate on repeating my mantra, while laying still and NOT rolling over?
      Follow your dreams.


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      Previous Goal: Air bend
      Main Goal: Find my Dream Guide


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      Goals: [X] Fly. [ ] Have a shared dream with someone. [ ] Water bend. [X] Air bend. [ ] Run at top speeds. [ ] Find my Dream Guide. [ ] Go to a fantasy ball. [ ] Meet Kiriguya (SAO) [ ] Meet Korra. (from LoK) [ ] Walk through a mirror. [X] Eat something. [ ] Run alongside a dinosaur.

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      You got it Sydney; stay as still as you can, with no rolling over -- even if it totally makes sense that you should roll over, because that's the kind of signal your body will be sending you anyway. Also, if you time your mantra with your breath, it might be easy to keep repeating it.

      Good luck!
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      Okay, so last night I attempted a WILD with no success. I put my timer on to wake me up. I'm not sure why i did this time because I usually can wake up by myself. I think I did it more as a fail safe because i was hoping i would wake up before the timer went off. But anyways after my timer went off, I read a chapter of LaBerge's book to keep me focused on my lucid dreaming task on hand while also waking myself up and relaxing. After reading the chapter, I found a position I thought would be comfortable enough to make it through my WILD attempt.

      I used a one word mantra. The word I used was "sail." I used it for two reasons. The first because my first mantra I was planning on using before was "with the wind" but figured if I shortened it, it would be easier to repeat and when sailing a boat, you are flowing with the wind and wind only and not forcing anything to happen just like a lucid dream. The second reason I used "sail" was because sailing in blue waters has kinda been a life long goal of mine. So figuring that this mantra would also help me form a dream scene in which i was on a sailboat or on a beach or something of the sort.

      What ended up happening through the whole attempt though...is nothing really. I kept on looking for HI to help begin form my dream, but nothing of the sort really was happening, and if it was, it was very sparse. I may have been looking too hard for it and not relaxing enough or maybe something like that. I did feel more relaxed and patient than I usually do though. Every breath i was also repeating my mantra. From reading the thread though, I did learn that i should not roll over. I did eventually roll over unfortunately. I posted here for any feedback on what I may have done wrong that prevented me from having a WILD. My main reason I believe it failed was because i used a timer, and from using a timer, i was not near any upcoming REM cycle and therefore had no dream to enter. Any feedback would be great! Thanks!

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      ^^ Another rollover! I'm sensing a trend!

      Seriously, TheGrimRose, I was two lines into your account when I noticed what actually happened -- and then you confirmed for me: you were indeed "looking too hard and not relaxing enough."

      WILD is all about relaxing, focusing your mind, and just barely noticing the noise like HI and SP. The act of looking for HI, even if your intentions are sound (forming the dream), will definitely throw you off. Think of HI as a peripheral-vision thing -- it only exists, at first, because you just barely see see it. If you look toward where it should be, it will never exist (hope that made sense -- it sounded really good in my head).

      Also, the act of looking (even though you don't use your eyes) might keep certain waking-life perception neurons firing that perhaps should have been turned off for sleep, and thus you can't fall asleep ( BTW getting your mind off things like this might be one reason your body suddenly decides it's time to change the subject and roll over). So sure, use HI to form your dreams, but don't plan on it. If you regularly experience HI enough to build a dream from, you'll experience it again. Just relax, maintain self-awareness, and let the stuff come as it will.

      Finally, "sail" was a nice shift of mantra, I think, for all the reasons you say. One more thought on this: the image of sailing on the ocean also taps the classic archetype of deep water as the unconscious mind... and there you are, smoothly navigating it, driven by that other great archetype of the soul -- wind!
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      Until that point I have been taking your class quite secretly (since you said we don't need workbooks ) ,but now since I think I need an advice I will break this vow of silence and tell you about my WILD attempts so far. The thing is that I WBTB after 4-5 hours of sleep , go back to bed and lay there without moving for about an hour while repeating my mantra and... nothing happens. No dream and no HI . Actually I did have some HI ,but on the first cycle when I didn't try to WILD (HI is not my target ,but it is still annoying I can't even get that). I have tried to improve my sleep quality by reading about healthy sleep positions and changing my pillow to a pillow that supports my neck (as an example) , I have also tried to learn various relaxation methods , I do plenty of RRCs everyday and even using skills I learned in the dream yoga class ,but I am still missing something. There is no chance that I will give up ,but it is still frustrating that I can't even get to the noise by will. So Sageous do you have any suggestions what am I doing wrong or maybe not doing or any other reason why I am not even able to enter the first stages of the WILD?
      Last edited by Beefer; 06-21-2012 at 08:16 PM.
      "Dream your dreams with your eyes closed, but live your dreams with your eyes open."

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      Thanks Sageous! It really clarified what I am doing wrong. Glad to hear my shift in mantra was a good idea. And don't worry, the statement about HI made perfect sense.

      I am going to have another attempt tonight trying to not try as hard for a WILD and just let it come naturally. Its summer for me so i can basically have an attempt every night
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      Quote Originally Posted by Beefer View Post
      Until that point I have been taking your class quite secretly (since you said we don't need workbooks ) ,but now since I think I need an advice I will break this vow of silence and tell you about my WILD attempts so far. The thing is that I WBTB after 4-5 hours of sleep , go back to bed and lay there without moving for about an hour while repeating my mantra and... nothing happens. No dream and no HI . Actually I did have some HI ,but on the first cycle when I didn't try to WILD (HI is not my target ,but it is still annoying I can't even get that). I have tried to improve my sleep quality by reading about healthy sleep positions and changing my pillow to a pillow that supports my neck (as an example) , I have also tried to learn various relaxation methods , I do plenty of RRCs everyday and even using skills I learned in the dream yoga class ,but I am still missing something. There is no chance that I will give up ,but it is still frustrating that I can't even get to the noise by will. So Sageous do you have any suggestions what am I doing wrong or maybe not doing or any other reason why I am not even able to enter the first stages of the WILD?
      Hi Beefer, and a belated welcome to you!

      From what you wrote, it's easy to tell what's going wrong: you're not falling asleep!

      I'm not being facetious, Beefer; WILD cannot exist if you don't go back to sleep. You can have the highest self-awareness levels possible, the best laid intentions, and strong memory, but it all means nothing, dream-wise, if your body doesn't feel like sleeping.

      So it's not that you aren't reaching the HI stage of WILD, it's that you aren't reaching the HI stage of sleep, which through your WILD you happen to notice (hopefully not too much!). The difference, I think, is significant, and one that is often overlooked in the WILD tutorials (and EWOLD, if I can remember): you must fall asleep, and be able to fall asleep, in order to WILD.

      So what to do? By your post I think you're already looking under the right rocks for a solution by improving your sleep quality. You might also consider both the length of time you sleep before WBTB, and the duration of WBTB itself. For instance, perhaps if you limit your sleep to, say, four hours max and your WBTB to little more than a quick potty break, you might be better able to convince your body that it is still in the midst of its sleep cycles, and you'll doze more quickly.

      Also, going to sleep is sometimes easier if you think about nothing at all: try not to concentrate on anything, or anticipate your upcoming LD (big mistake there, as it usually stirs enough excitement to wake you up for sure), or even wonder where HI is. Don't think about how much time this is taking -- that not makes it take longer, it makes it seem longer. Just lie there, be calm, repeat your mantra, and wait. This, again, is why that mantra must be significant to you and your dream goal, because it is carrying your intentions and expectations for you, so that all you need do is stay aware...and go to sleep.

      So look to sleep, and not to the missing WILD events, and you might have some luck. Quick caveat: try to stay away from sleep aids like melatonin or Sominex, as their effect on your REM cycles might prevent LD's from happening (taking the night before should be okay, just not during WBTB).

      I hope that helped; let me know if I misunderstood...
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      Whenever I'm attempting, and have been saying my mantra, I get so bored with nothing happening that I just want to move and give up. I usually get this feeling after about 10 - 20 minutes.
      Is it just me that gets this feeling?
      Follow your dreams.


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    22. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sydney View Post
      Whenever I'm attempting, and have been saying my mantra, I get so bored with nothing happening that I just want to move and give up. I usually get this feeling after about 10 - 20 minutes.
      Is it just me that gets this feeling?
      Not at all... most people do! The trick is to beat back the boredom and make it that last few minutes until sleep sets in....

    23. #23
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      Well i had a few odd experiences in my WILD attempt today.

      Last night i had 4 hours of sleep; not alot for me. So today, i tried a nap WILD, lasting about 50 minutes, before my patience wore thin. It went like this:

      First, i let myself wind down for 5 minutes, just lying on my couch. Then i started using the mantra, mixed with counting, in sychronization with my breathing, so it would be: breath in, 1, breath out, "follow the path" (good or bad mantra?). After 15 or so minutes of this, my arms became numb, and had a slight heaviness to them, but not like an SP heaviness. This feeling slowly progressed until my whole chest had this sensation. Some time later, I had the sudden feeling of moving upwards, not fast, but not slowly either. Sensations similar to this occured throughout the entire attempt. At one point, I got lost in thought, and lost awarness of my body, but then was brought back for some reason. My face and cheeks felt lke they had been injected with novacain; they were completely numb. It was a wierd feeling.

      If i had not been brought back from when i was lost in thought, would i have succeeded? Im not sure if i was repeating my mantra, as i lost awareness.

      Was this anything lke it should have been?

      I have a large problem with my eyelids. They wont stay shut. I have tried every possible technique to keep them closed, but the only way is with a sleepmask to put a light pressure on them, but this distracts me.

      I hope i was going in the right direction.
      Thanks

    24. #24
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      ^^ ThAtaInTmE:

      That was generally a fine attempt, with all the right pieces in place, save one big one.

      First, "follow the path" is an excellent mantra, as long as the "path" it relates to means something to you and holds the dream and not the noise in priority. You seemed very focused on the noise -- for instance, pretty much everything you list describing the attempt is regarding sensations and physical events, but very little about the approaching dream state, or your self-awareness.

      Try not to focus too much on all those physical feelings you are bound to experience (and yes, the things you describe is as close to a benchmark of "normal" as this discipline is able to establish, so it was like it should have been). Instead, try to make the noise a secondary attraction, perhaps no more than mileposts marking your journey. To spend too much time "experiencing" them is to open your mind and body up to distraction -- like getting lost in thought -- and that distraction will erase your awareness every time.

      About your eyelids: you note a good reason for doing a WILD in a dark room, or while wearing a sleep mask. What your eyes "see" during normal sleep and WILD is of no consequence, and can be ignored, but some people's eyes don't always completely close during sleep (though their vision does shut off). If you're one of those people then, yes, you'll certainly have trouble keeping your eyes closed. So you might try to do your WILD in an environment that allows your eyes to remain open without disturbing you.

      Finally: yes, ThAtaInTmE, you are definitely moving in the right direction! Your mantra is good, your general discipline (aka, patience) seems good, and your timing seems good. Just work on the self-awareness and try not to lend too much importance to the noise.
      Keitorin likes this.

    25. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ ThAtaInTmE:

      That was generally a fine attempt, with all the right pieces in place, save one big one.

      First, "follow the path" is an excellent mantra, as long as the "path" it relates to means something to you and holds the dream and not the noise in priority. You seemed very focused on the noise -- for instance, pretty much everything you list describing the attempt is regarding sensations and physical events, but very little about the approaching dream state, or your self-awareness.

      Try not to focus too much on all those physical feelings you are bound to experience (and yes, the things you describe is as close to a benchmark of "normal" as this discipline is able to establish, so it was like it should have been). Instead, try to make the noise a secondary attraction, perhaps no more than mileposts marking your journey. To spend too much time "experiencing" them is to open your mind and body up to distraction -- like getting lost in thought -- and that distraction will erase your awareness every time.

      About your eyelids: you note a good reason for doing a WILD in a dark room, or while wearing a sleep mask. What your eyes "see" during normal sleep and WILD is of no consequence, and can be ignored, but some people's eyes don't always completely close during sleep (though their vision does shut off). If you're one of those people then, yes, you'll certainly have trouble keeping your eyes closed. So you might try to do your WILD in an environment that allows your eyes to remain open without disturbing you.

      Finally: yes, ThAtaInTmE, you are definitely moving in the right direction! Your mantra is good, your general discipline (aka, patience) seems good, and your timing seems good. Just work on the self-awareness and try not to lend too much importance to the noise.
      Thankyou! I really appreciate the response, and im glad to know im doing the right things. Ill try to regard the sensations differently as you suggested.
      Thanks again

      P.S. sorry, but what do you mean by 'save the big one.' Sometimes its hard to understand what the poster means, or im just not thinking straight

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