Thread: The age of perfect lucid attainment, NOW!

It isn't really a simplified WILD, since WILD is simple anyway. All that is required for something to be a WILD is to fall asleep while maintaining some consciousness. The part that varies is how people go about retaining their consciousness, or ways to help them fall asleep faster. So it is not a new technique, but it does seem like it will work, so I will try it. Just a quick question though, if it is during WBTB, how long do you stay up, a few minutes, or can you start right after waking up?
Also the way you word concentrate in front of you is sort of misleading, it sounds like you want people to concentrate outside of their body, but in a lower comment you said behind their eyes, which makes more sense to me anyway.

keep it up

what happened to this ?

I'm not quite sure why everyone is being so ungrateful but thanks for this but how long would this take?

Everyone has their own "technique" for lucid dreaming. Everyone grabs WILD, MILD or DILD and tweaks it to their tastes. Some people like to take their time and post and it's that helpful and sharing action that should be noticed here.

Who cares if it's WILD in the end, sometimes a different way to explain it it's enough to create a new mindset. As Sageous would say, who cares what it is as long that it works

so has this Worked for others?

What is interesting too is , imo , there are SO MANY techniques (many of which nauseate me at the thought of engaging my intellect that much.. The Techs dont nauseate me , its when i feel i have to ACTIVATE my Thinking Mind ALOT at a time of Hoping to be Relaxed, NEVER helps me get anywhere) it can be overwhelming. It may be worth researching if there is a Single , SIMPLE , tech that can work for say 75% or even 50% of people . The SIMPLER the Better IF it Works. What is the Absolute BARE Minimum that needs to happen and can it be repeated fairly often and by many. Like in Zoth00's Avatar - the Boy in Matrix - what he says is Very simple , yet Profound - like that in a tech.

Just a thought.

Techniques can be as simple, complex, personalized, or bizarre as you want them to be, ohaimax. Why? Because techniques are just that: techniques. All these things, be they WILD, DILD, MILD, DEILD, FID, FADDLE, FUM, or whatever acronymn the next shortcut seeker invents, they are just tools to help you bring your waking awareness into a dream. If you are not mentally prepared for a LD, you will not have one, no matter which tool you pull from the box. And of course, if you are mentally prepared (strong self-awareness, solid intention, good focus, and high expectation), then you will have one, regardless of which method you choose.

Yes, Elucid's method might really just be a WILD, but who cares? If you're ready, you'll be lucid, period. You can pick whatever method works at the moment you need it; these techniques are more focused on timing (ie, DILD or MILD at night, WILD during WBTB) than on overall efficiency -- none are better than others. This obsession with techniques (fueled I think by a prevalent but incorrect assumption that they can be shortcuts to true lucidity) is no more than a distraction from the real prep necessary to become a successful LD'er.

Yes , Sageous - this is interesting. Care to remind me of the real prep, what that is. This is getting at question i am wondering, what are the BAREBONES needed to do it, strip away the ornaments. Distill it to its core.

Originally Posted by ohaimax

Yes , Sageous - this is interesting. Care to remind me of the real prep, what that is. This is getting at question i am wondering, what are the BAREBONES needed to do it, strip away the ornaments. Distill it to its core.

Distilled to its core, LD'ing is nothing more than drawing on self-awareness ( which is simply being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you) and memory (which is turned off during a dream) to establish a foothold for your waking awareness in a dream. Throw in properly set intentions before sleep, which MUST include a real personal interest in actually LD'ing (trying it out 'cause a friend said it was cool is usually not enough), and any technique you choose -- or even make up on your own -- will likely get you eventually to a state of lucidity.

That's the bare bones of it. I did go on at length about these "fundamentals" a while back in my Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals thread, which I suggest you check out -- I think if you do you'll see more sense in the stuff I just wrote...

has anyone tried his method? I would love to know how long it takes on focusing on your eye lids...lol

Originally Posted by Sageous

Distilled to its core, LD'ing is nothing more than drawing on self-awareness ( which is simply being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you) and memory (which is turned off during a dream) to establish a foothold for your waking awareness in a dream. Throw in properly set intentions before sleep, which MUST include a real personal interest in actually LD'ing (trying it out 'cause a friend said it was cool is usually not enough), and any technique you choose -- or even make up on your own -- will likely get you eventually to a state of lucidity.

That's the bare bones of it. I did go on at length about these "fundamentals" a while back in my Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals thread, which I suggest you check out -- I think if you do you'll see more sense in the stuff I just wrote...

OK. Yes after looking over your link there i think you are exactly the type of person who i need to ask this too. Forgive if youve posted it elsewhere. The premise of your view is very good. If you dont mind, may i ask :

Based on your view and experience what are the Simplest WAYs of achieving an LD as far as technique?

I know that sounds trite so let me offer a paralell context. If one wants to learn Meditation there are nowadays thousands of "ways", yet one could simply start with one of the oldest (called Shine in Tibetan or Shamatha in Sanskrit) and there is a Simple list of what to do and what to not do, and this has worked for millions of people for a long time, delivering the result. There are tons of "new" ways that may work, or may not, yet the ole - timey one is not obsolete. So i hope that is a metaphor to assist my question , which i cannot elaborate on in words well.

Originally Posted by ohaimax

OK. If you dont mind, may i ask : Based on your view and experience what are the Simplest WAYs of achieving an LD as far as technique?

So...right after I finish saying that the "ways" are not the thing that matters, that techniques are not even fundamental to lucidity, you say, basically, "That's all great, but seriously, what is the best technique?" Deep sigh. Okay, you win.

There is no "best" technique. I guess when it really comes down to it there are only three techniques: DILD, WILD, and MILD, and they're all pretty simple, when you think about it. If you really look, you'll notice that most of the other acronymed techniques are just variations of these three bases.

In the end, the technique that works best is the one that best fits your personal demeanor, schedule, lucid maturity, and habits. Yes, as I said they are all about as simple as each other, though not necessarily "easy." For instance, WILD is very simple, on paper, but it's next to impossible to do. DILD takes the most time, because you have to develop a habit of state testing (RC's) during the day, but it is probably the easiest. If you have a good memory, then MILD might be best for you.

Then there's timing. If you start your sessions at bedtime, then DILD might be the right choice, but if you go for WBTB, then WILD might work, with plans to DEILD (really just a shortened WILD) if you can.

So I guess the correct answer to your question is that DILD, WILD, and MILD are the best techniques for opening the door to lucid dreaming, and you would do well to learn all three so that you can LD when you want to do so.

And, of course, those techniques only give you the opportunity to become aware in your dreams; they don't provide lucidity on their own. As I said above, the best WAY to become lucid is to develop a very high sense of self (self-awareness), and master your memory. And, sadly, there is no short list for that, and certainly no best method.

I probably wasn't much help, but if you'd like keep pressing and maybe I'll come up with something else..

This is exactly what I am doing, but usually i have my focus on other stuff like meditation routines and so on and I usually just end up falling asleep unconsciously after a lot of relxation vibrations and so on.

This was an hah.. eyeopener for me. And this is a perfect anchor, like somebody already mentioned. And this will make it easier to meditate. Because normally when I meditate I focus on not thinking by being calm or counting and so on, but every time I start to think, the awareness of the back of my eyelids is gone.
So this is perfect and even if it is quite obvious, I have never thought of it this way. So now I can notice if I am aware or not during the induction.
I will try it tonight

Another thing to note. If you focus on the back of your eyelids before you fall asleep you will also start to notice your microawakenings and it will be easier to DEILD. At least that's what usually happens to me.

And by the way, it doesn't matter if the technique is new or not WILD or DILD
because you have to stop seeing techniques as techniques and just as guidelines. Believe in yourself not the technique
Watch this to understand what i mean: Advanced lucid dreaming: part 6 - YouTube

Originally Posted by Choi

Watch this to understand what i mean: Advanced lucid dreaming: part 6 - YouTube

I just watched Tim Post's video, and it really does make my point (far more eloquently than I did)...I hope many many people here take a moment and view it...

Originally Posted by Sageous

I just watched Tim Post's video, and it really does make my point (far more eloquently than I did)...I hope many many people here take a moment and view it...

That video is basically what I base my current lucid mindset on, I lucid dream because I can. I, not some wonder technique, me.

[rant]
A word on methodology; no 'technique' for the induction of a lucid dream is a method. The word method implies reliability, that when different individuals perform the same technique they will reap the same results. Action and Reaction. We know that lucid dreaming isn't like this. Ignoring even WILDing which is just a minefield of extraneous variables, what could we say is even a 'method' for DILD? Raising daytime awareness? Increasing the performance of prospective memory? Setting an intention before sleep? All of these are abstract concepts, how can you measure any of them in relation to results? We all interpret and possess things such as awareness differently.

Hukif mentioned placebo, I wish a siren would go off every time someone bandied the term 'placebo' around, every technique going utilises the placebo effect; lucidity is a mental state, placebos make use of a mental state to create an effect. Why do people think placebo is some kind of sin, has nobody heard of homeopathy? We're not talking about drug trials here, go find me a pharmaceutical that induces lucid dreaming and then we can talk placebo.

Lucid dreaming is not a science, it's an art, all techniques are indirect ways of you finding your own individual lucidity. That's why stockpiling many techniques doesn't work, you're not adding to your lucid dreaming arsenal, it doesn't exist, all those things are peripheral compared to you finding your own particular way of lucid dreaming. A mistake that many LDers make is to try and find as many techniques as possible and try them all in the hope of gleaning success when they should be putting their confidence in themselves. On the flipside, when you find your own individual technique and post it as elucid has, it will only be successful for the tiny minority who share your traits.

[/rant]

Sageoues.... Thanks . Yes this is helpful, here's why. i first had LDs in the 1990s just from reading about it and no tech was involved. then i fell into the craze of the 1000 Techs, and they actually seemed to HINDER it for me. So i am backtracking to When i used No Tech , yet feel that prob SOME Basic tech is good. I think your PREMISE that the FOUNDATION is laid FIRST , is totally correct and so will be working on that w Less focus on Tech.

Here is my basic rendition of what your saying re: Foundation... Please correct as needed.

-Mindfullness (Awareness in your words) of Here-Now and Environs (am i here and present in Real Time or is my mind thinking about other things)
-Memory (in Meditation this is strangely called Awareness)... Remembering to be Mindfull or Aware as stated above
-_______ i prob left something out

... Perhaps JUST this , IF Strong enough as a Daily habit can do the Job, add one of the 3 techs (just sticking to 3 for Simplicity) to Ice the Cake

The above is Foundation, vs techs (im leaving those out for now).


So , Thanks agian... Please Chime in and proofread the Summary of the Foundation.

Cheers,
OM

Sorry for the confusion. To clarify-the words of Method or Tech i am referring to are based on Meditation arts (LD is a meditation art -if your Mind is involved and placed on an object[s], that is meditation) vs Scientific-Material. So you cant measure these w instruments or prove to others (even if i say ive had an LD, i cant prove it), none the less, from the POV of the meditator, a shift can be felt, even though it does not exist, in same way as a character in Dream does not exist, although they also, exist.
cheers
OM

Quite simply, the theme at this point could be, BE SURE YOU have THE FOUNDATIONAL VIEW-ACTION in place IF want the PATH (techs) to WORK best .

Originally Posted by ohaimax

Sageoues.... Thanks . Yes this is helpful, here's why. i first had LDs in the 1990s just from reading about it and no tech was involved. then i fell into the craze of the 1000 Techs, and they actually seemed to HINDER it for me. So i am backtracking to When i used No Tech , yet feel that prob SOME Basic tech is good. I think your PREMISE that the FOUNDATION is laid FIRST , is totally correct and so will be working on that w Less focus on Tech.

Here is my basic rendition of what your saying re: Foundation... Please correct as needed.

-Mindfullness (Awareness in your words) of Here-Now and Environs (am i here and present in Real Time or is my mind thinking about other things)
-Memory (in Meditation this is strangely called Awareness)... Remembering to be Mindfull or Aware as stated above
-_______ i prob left something out

... Perhaps JUST this , IF Strong enough as a Daily habit can do the Job, add one of the 3 techs (just sticking to 3 for Simplicity) to Ice the Cake
The above is Foundation, vs techs (im leaving those out for now).
So , Thanks agian... Please Chime in and proofread the Summary of the Foundation.

You got it, save for the bit about memory.

I was speaking more literally about it than I think the meditation folks do. When you are dreaming, functional memory is turned off. If you can switch memory back on, then you will be able to have your full waking consciousness, and all its resources, with you in the dream. If that's what the meditation folks were talking about, then never mind!

Beyond that, I think that somehow expectation and intent need to be built into the formula, though they may be more of that icing you mention...

So yes, the fundamentals -- self-awareness and memory -- are that simple, though they might take a lifetime to truly master. And yes, if you have a grasp on the fundamentals, then the "techniques" become the handy tools that they should be, and not something more, which they are not.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I just watched Tim Post's video, and it really does make my point (far more eloquently than I did)...I hope many many people here take a moment and view it...

Yes...this video is very good. Emptiness is discussed. As well as LD Materialism (see "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" - Chogyam Trungpa). This is Strangely the exact topics i have been thinking about in past week PRIOR to seeing the Video . THANKS to ALL above, esp Sageous for helping to Clarify this. Tim Post too !

Originally Posted by Sageous

You got it, save for the bit about memory.

I was speaking more literally about it than I think the meditation folks do. When you are dreaming, functional memory is turned off. If you can switch memory back on, then you will be able to have your full waking consciousness, and all its resources, with you in the dream. If that's what the meditation folks were talking about, then never mind!

Beyond that, I think that somehow expectation and intent need to be built into the formula, though they may be more of that icing you mention...

So yes, the fundamentals -- self-awareness and memory -- are that simple, though they might take a lifetime to truly master. And yes, if you have a grasp on the fundamentals, then the "techniques" become the handy tools that they should be, and not something more, which they are not.

Yes , this seems to be the Rule. The METHOD when TRUE is SIMPLY laid out - BUT it is the HARDEST thing in the WORLD to DO (if not , everyone would LD or be Enlightened by now).

Memory - gotcha. Yeah i think thats diff from Meditation , but is SIMILAR (or the same?) to a Quality they call PRAJNA, which is like Memory but way faster and almost if not, psychic, and relates to omniscience (inferring you are aware of dream life, waking life - even past and future) and knowing what to do at all times w no doubt. I will explore this more, as it is a WEAK elelment and i feel OVERLOOKED oft or lost in the Shuffle of a Million ILDs.

Much thanks !!!

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Hukif mentioned placebo, I wish a siren would go off every time someone bandied the term 'placebo' around, every technique going utilises the placebo effect; lucidity is a mental state, placebos make use of a mental state to create an effect. Why do people think placebo is some kind of sin, has nobody heard of homeopathy? We're not talking about drug trials here, go find me a pharmaceutical that induces lucid dreaming and then we can talk placebo.

Though this statement seems fine to me, can I add a small note of caution about placebo?

Placebos by definition are not medically "real," in that the ingredient said to be in a placebo "pill" is not. They are a lie that you choose usually without knowing the truth, to believe. So in essence, the placebo effect is not real either -- it is simply the brain tricking you that the pill you took worked. As soon as you are consciously aware of the lie, the pill's power tends to fade.

Normally, as you say, this seems to be a fine thing to happen in dreaming. But what about when your dreaming mind doubles down on the lie and delivers a placebo effect that creates a false lucid dream -- a dream where you think you're lucid (because your dreaming mind obligingly fulfilled your expectations), but you have no real waking awareness present?

This seems to be something that might happen to a person who is new to LD'ing, reads about the powers of all these techniques, and tries them out without any mental prep at all, save memorizing the steps for, say, WILD. They might think they're having a lucid dream, because everything in the dream is just what people told them (and their dreaming mind) what it should be, but they will miss out on the real experience of having your waking awareness with your in a dream.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by ohaimax

Memory - gotcha. Yeah i think thats diff from Meditation , but is SIMILAR (or the same?) to a Quality they call PRAJNA, which is like Memory but way faster and almost if not, psychic, and relates to omniscience (inferring you are aware of dream life, waking life - even past and future) and knowing what to do at all times w no doubt. I will explore this more, as it is a WEAK element and i feel OVERLOOKED oft or lost in the Shuffle of a Million ILDs.

I was going to say that no, I was speaking more of the mundane brain function that is memory than something as esoteric as prajna, but now that you mention it, the combination of memory and awareness in a high-end LD is all about prajna! Definitely food for thought; thanks for mentioning.

I've never had an experience of 'fake' lucidity, it's my belief that fake lucidity arises from a realisation one is dreaming, but only possessing low levels of waking cognition/operative memory, etc. That being said I'm open to debate on that point. However, by your line of reasoning techniques such as the use of auto-suggestion and post-hypnotic suggestion would have a much higher than average incidence of 'fake lucidity' and I don't believe that is the case.
I have had dreams in which I have lain down to WILD, reached sleep paralysis, transitioned and had a fully lucid dream believing I had successfully WILDed, only to realise that I had not in fact WILDed. But the lucid dreams resulting from those 'dream WILDs' were no less lucid than any of my other lucid dreams, in fact my first lucid flying dream came from a 'fake' WILD.

A placebo isn't a real 'thing' it's a handy way of describing a reaction of the brain to pre-suggestion (this is a pill, I will feel better), many lucidity techniques rely on this very mechanic ('when I recognise a dream I will realise I'm dreaming and become lucid', 'I am a natural lucid dreamer', 'I'm dreaming, I'm dreaming', etc.).

The only way that the placebo effect could be applied to lucid dreaming is in an experimental context. You set up a lab experiment of 60 participants, 30 carry out the scientifically falsified techniques set out by Stephen Laberge, and the experimental group of 30 participants are given a placebo, a wonder lucid dreaming pill.
In this case you would testing whether the success of DILD techniques was actually due to the placebo effect, people having confidence in the technique and so they lucid dream, and I reckon that there is a massive placebo effect in Laberge's techniques, I bet the placebo group would be very successful. After all, how many techniques out there have you seen that say that confidence is the most important thing?