Thread: FA's: Do Most DEILDs Actually Occur During False Awakenings? Do FA's Have a Purpose?

I have a feeling that a lot of people have false awakenings and just don't recognize them. I have read theories that lucid dreamers are more likely to have them, but perhaps we are just more likely to catch them either during or after the dream since we pay attention to our dreams. Sometimes it takes me a while to remember that I had a false awakening so my gut feeling is that I am missing many of them altogether. Often the way I catch them after the fact is when I realize that I thought that I had already written something in my dream journal but later find that I hadn't. I think they are often missed because they are often so realistically duplicating the feeling of getting up, something that is so mundane and repetitive that we often do it on auto-pilot paying no attention at all.

I have been wondering lately if most or all of the DEILDs I had were actually during FA's...perhaps it was easy to DEILD because I was actually still dreaming...I had just dreamt that I was waking up (FA).

Lately I am noticing many of my LDs end by waking up but I later realize I only woke into a FA. I occasionally catch these but I am working towards catching a very high percentage of them.

All of this also makes me wonder if FAs have a purpose and if the brain is attempting to counter lucidity. Reading around the web some theorize that FAs often present things that we need to confront, but the ones that I remember are not confrontational or scary.

I am interested in other people's opinions on the above theories, other's experiences with FAs with or without relation to DEILDs and any tips that anyone has. My current focus is EVERYTIME I feel like I am waking up: #1 attempt quick DEILD and if nothing apparent #2 do a few motionless RC's. The goal is to do this no matter how sure I am that I have woken up. It is harder than I thought at first.

Edit: Great point Sageous! (Below, post #2) Yes, if everyone could read the poll (and my opinion) as "I know (or I believe) that some assumed DEILDs occur during FA's and are actually DILDs. I am looking for an option to update the actual poll.

Though it shouldn't interfere with the theme of your thread (which I see more as "What is the purpose or value of FA's?"), which is really interesting, I do feel a need to insert a small technical detail:

What you describe in the OP is actually a DILD, and not a DEILD. Since DEILD's can only be done upon exit of a dream, you would have already left the FA behind before you can attempt one. In other words, a FA is by definition a dream, so you physically cannot do a DEILD during one. This is the case even if you think you are performing one during the FA -- and if you become lucid from that, you've done a DILD... and there's nothing wrong with that at all, BTW!

I'm not sure if this means you might need to change some terms in your poll (or just delete a couple of "E's," maybe), but I thought it worth mentioning.

Aside from that, I too have often wondered at the purpose of FA's. I've had a few ideas, including that it is an unconscious attempt to lead you away from a LD, or perhaps just an unconscious failure to fulfill your desire to be awake in your dream by creating a dream where you're awake (miscommunications can happen, I suppose). Even if FA's are neither of those two things, I've never seen a need to assign any symbolic meaning to them, though. If anything, the imagery of a FA might just reflect a momentary lapse in creativity on your dreaming mind's part: It had nothin', so it just presented a no-brainer schema of your bedroom or morning activities.

I actually tend to become lucid in False Awakenings, so they are very useful for me in that regard.

Yepp - I also had a false awakening, leading to the first longer lucid since joining up here:

Originally Posted by StephL´s DJ

Started out with me putting the alarm 4 h after falling asleep and trying WILD once more.
I almost managed - there were some strange sensations and slipping and sliding about - but I came out of these with too much awakeness after a while
And got impatient and fell asleep.
I use an I-Phone now for pre-journalling - and I had journalled away one first dream before.
The following dream had me sleeping over at a friend´s flat (both grown ups) - and I - falsely - woke up there - and didn´t do a RC unfortunately.
It was a lot of fiddling, and the I Phone didn´t work (ha!) and she thought it was all bullshit anyway with my LD-thing - next was getting into an argument with two other women also sleeping there and this and that - got it all on tape.

Anyway - woke up for real from this false awakening - journalled - fell asleep.

And again woke up at this friend´s place.
And I thought - noo way - and made the nose-plug RC.
Three times, cause I couldn´t believe it anyway!
Yepp - lucid!

Told my friend so - this time she laughed and congratulated and I went in the air and zipped about her like some crazed bumble-bee or something....

What could have gotten me lucid in the first FA already were the weird problems with my I-Phone, where I do pre-journalling with the dictation-function.
So - for now, the very act of journalling with a technical device is my FA-detector.
If only I dictated after every awakening..
What made me realize was the fact to wake up at her place again.

Being a novice - I can only guess - but yesterday I read somebody having a LD, and it faded on him, and he was afraid to wake up.
And he did - but a FA.
Maybe it is also the expectation of loosing a dream, which can cause a FA?
So - the dream does not really end - despite the worrying - but it seems to end - maybe because of the expectation??

Oh yeah - and edit:
I thought, maybe next time in a LD - I do not nose-plug as the very first thing, but try to influence something by looking at it..?
Besides rubbing and looking at my hands and try for the best possible anchoring..

But maybe before that - and if finally a WILD works - and I think, I am still awake - I can do that without the danger of moving for real?
I mean - preventing a false staying awake?

Originally Posted by Sageous

In other words, a FA is by definition a dream, so you physically cannot do a DEILD during one. This is the case even if you think you are performing one during the FA -- and if you become lucid from that, you've done a DILD... and there's nothing wrong with that at all, BTW!

True, an LD is an LD And the DEILD vs DILD point is an important clarification in case anyone missed Sageous' post or my edit to the OP.

I'm not sure if this means you might need to change some terms in your poll (or just delete a couple of "E's," maybe), but I thought it worth mentioning.

After an edit, I did clarify what I was trying to get at in the poll though it could still be confusing. A big thank you to gab for helping me edit the poll!

Aside from that, I too have often wondered at the purpose of FA's. I've had a few ideas, including that it is an unconscious attempt to lead you away from a LD, or perhaps just an unconscious failure to fulfill your desire to be awake in your dream by creating a dream where you're awake (miscommunications can happen, I suppose). Even if FA's are neither of those two things, I've never seen a need to assign any symbolic meaning to them, though. If anything, the imagery of a FA might just reflect a momentary lapse in creativity on your dreaming mind's part: It had nothin', so it just presented a no-brainer schema of your bedroom or morning activities.

I like all of these theories...hmmm...food for thought!

Originally Posted by StephL

and she thought it was all bullshit anyway with my LD-thing - next was getting into an argument with two other women also sleeping there and this and that - got it all on tape.

Doesn't this sound like some kind of counter-lucidity mechanism. There you are telling your friend about "my LD-thing" and she calls it bullshit and you get into an argument with two other women. I have had some of these in the past where I lose lucidity because of a confrontation, controversy or something similar that draws my attention away from the fact that I was lucid moments before. I am sure that gets better with practice. I feel like we are cracking some kind of code here...haha. I get this feeling like sometimes it is better (in some cases only) to stay non-lucid or lose lucidity. Sivason's recent experiments with shaking off lucidity come to mind as well. I had a very special non-lucid featuring a deceased loved one that became more special because - surprisingly - I did not become lucid on that occasion. I am sure I would have flown off if I did become lucid and missed a special moment in a non-lucid. Don't get me wrong, I want to have many, many lucid dreams. I am just wondering if maybe we are not meant to be constantly lucid. Perhaps FAs are one mechanism for some people and controversy and similar things could be an additional mechanism. The recent research regarding sleep as a means of brain toxin flushing also comes to mind...I wonder if that happens in NREM or REM or when. Didn't see the answer in the research article here: Sleep Drives Metabolite Clearance from the Adult Brain and this excerpt doesn't help me: "The observation that anesthesia increases glymphatic influx and efflux (Figs. 1 and 3), suggests that it is not circadian rhythm but rather the sleep-wake state itself that determines the volume of the interstitial space and therefore the efficiency of glymphatic solute clearance." It could be because they didn't separate out sleep cycles...Please note that this study was done on mice. Mice and REM: "Sleep-stage specific distributions of REM in mice correspond to human REM density during sleep." Source: Rapid eye movements during sleep in mice: High trait-like stability qualifies rapid eye movement density for characterization of phenotypic variation in sleep patterns of rodents Anyone with more of a science/research background??

Being a novice - I can only guess - but yesterday I read somebody having a LD, and it faded on him, and he was afraid to wake up.
And he did - but a FA.
Maybe it is also the expectation of loosing a dream, which can cause a FA?
So - the dream does not really end - despite the worrying - but it seems to end - maybe because of the expectation??

Do you mean the expectation of losing lucid and non-lucids, or just lucids? I have FA's after dreams that were seemingly non-lucid but they are harder to catch than FAs coming after a lucid. By catch I mean either during the dream or even after the dream has ended...sometimes they seem like the first dreams to disappear especially after a non-lucid and I think this could go back to their mundane nature at least in the beginning of FAs(because they don't always finish as mundane).

I thought, maybe next time in a LD - I do not nose-plug as the very first thing, but try to influence something by looking at it..?
Besides rubbing and looking at my hands and try for the best possible anchoring..

Yes, I think these motionless RCs are ideal for catching FAs since you could be almost awake and physical RCs might wake you up completely.

But maybe before that - and if finally a WILD works - and I think, I am still awake - I can do that without the danger of moving for real?
I mean - preventing a false staying awake?

That is what I would do...but maybe Sageous and others have some more tips with a little more nuance.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

Doesn't this sound like some kind of counter-lucidity mechanism. There you are telling your friend about "my LD-thing" and she calls it bullshit and you get into an argument with two other women. I have had some of these in the past where I lose lucidity because of a confrontation, controversy or something similar that draws my attention away from the fact that I was lucid moments before. I am sure that gets better with practice...
.. Perhaps FAs are one mechanism for some people and controversy and similar things could be an additional mechanism (mechanism to not LD).

In my case - this was the first FA after falling asleep after trying WILD.
So - the controversy - not a big one - and it was something else with the other two women - took place in a ND.
The sign should have been my I-Phone not working in weird ways - it blinked and showed symbols, that are not the normal ones, didn´t react on my fiddling with it.
After the real awakening and falling asleep again - I had a FA at her place again.
This made me lucid.
And once I was lucid - my friend congratulated me and was happy for me.

In lucidity - I got encouragement.
So - I am different there, I guess.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

The recent research regarding sleep as a means of brain toxin flushing also comes to mind...
I wonder if that happens in NREM or REM or when. Didn't see the answer in the research article here: Sleep Drives Metabolite Clearance from the Adult Brain

and this excerpt doesn't help me: "The observation that anesthesia increases glymphatic influx and efflux (Figs. 1 and 3), suggests that it is not circadian rhythm but rather the sleep-wake state itself that determines the volume of the interstitial space and therefore the efficiency of glymphatic solute clearance."

It could be because they didn't separate out sleep cycles...Please note that this study was done on mice. Mice and REM: "Sleep-stage specific distributions of REM in mice correspond to human REM density during sleep."

Source:
Rapid eye movements during sleep in mice: High trait-like stability qualifies rapid eye movement density for characterization of phenotypic variation in sleep patterns of rodents Anyone with more of a science/research background??

Yupp!
I only flew over the papers - I might have gotten something wrong - but I know, what they are on about in general.
What they mean with the fattened stuff is, that they have a reliable way to detect REM sleep in mice per an algorithm, which takes into account EEG-readings and eye-movements.
So they did determine that sleep in mice works very similarly to sleep in humans, concerning the sleep-cycle.
Which in turn enables the scientists to make conclusions by studying mice, which also should apply for humans.


Then - the main paper with the results on clearance of rubbish - I will give you some background - but it is not all, what I describe here - and I simplified and shortened:

First of all - the lymphatic system (no "g" in that word) - is a system of interstitial (between cells) fluid, which is filtered out of the bloodstream for once - also out of cells comes fluid. This system does not have vessels as such - but flows between the cells in the interstitial spaces.
It takes up the rubbish from the cells and also the vessels - and transports it off to the lymphatic organs.
These are the lymph-nodes and the spleen for example - there are immune-cells, which deal with the stuff.
This is the system for the whole body.

So - what they say is not about anaesthesia alone - but is true for normal sleep:

we show that natural sleep or anesthesia are associated with a 60% increase in the interstitial space, resulting in a striking increase in convective exchange of cerebrospinal fluid with interstitial fluid.

Secondly - the brain has it´s own filtration system and what results is cerebro-spinal fluid (CFS).
A special stuff - the brain has mechanisms to protect itself from stuff in the rest of the body.
This is also filtered from the blood stream in a way as to have certain special chemical mixture for the brain, which it needs, also for feeding it, cushioning it - and also to take away the rubbish.
There are cavities within the brain, filled with it - and it is all around it - giving buoyancy against trauma - and it reaches also into the spinal cord and to the nerves that root from there, and those rooting from the brain.
There are certain regions, where this CFS in it´s turn gets filtrated into the main-body lymphatic system.
And when there is more space between cells - when the outside lymphatic fluid has less pressure - the filtration into it goes up and the rubbish from the brain gets transported away better/faster into the main lymph system. Convection is the name for the mechanism - it is basically diffusion along pressure or chemical concentration gradients.

I hope, this is a bit clearer now?
But they did not differentiate in that study about the CFS-lymph exchange between REM and other sleep states - which they could have done maybe - along the first study.
What they rather wanted to know, is if the effect comes from sleeping or from circadian rhythm - our inner clock - running if you sleep or not - corrected by light.
So they let the mice sleep at unusual times (I think..) - and found it is not time but sleep-dependant, this volume and filtration rise effects.
Some things are circadian - coming at certain times - not directly connected to if you sleep or not.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

Do you mean the expectation of losing lucid and non-lucids, or just lucids? I have FA's after dreams that were seemingly non-lucid but they are harder to catch than FAs coming after a lucid. By catch I mean either during the dream or even after the dream has ended...sometimes they seem like the first dreams to disappear especially after a non-lucid and I think this could go back to their mundane nature at least in the beginning of FAs(because they don't always finish as mundane).

Yes, I think these motionless RCs are ideal for catching FAs since you could be almost awake and physical RCs might wake you up completely.

That is what I would do...but maybe Sageous and others have some more tips with a little more nuance.

I meant in that case - a maybe expectation-driven losing of a LD.
But I am not so sure - like last night - they do fade after their own fashion, rather - and maybe the FA is rather you wanting back in..?
Actually - I am yet to have a situation, where I am afraid to move my body - I will see what all comes to pass.

My most hilarious FA was to "wake up from a lucid dream" all excited, then go to the room and meet my dad and uncle (who lives in another country). They were dragging this mattress and I just sat there looking at them. When my father asked me if I was going to join them for lunch at my grandmothers house, I told him I couldn't, I had to write down my fresh lucid dream. I went to my room, a bit too dark, grabbed my DJ...and noticed something was wrong lol. "why would I leave the room without writing my lucid down?". And then I woke up xD

I'm gonna approach this in a different perspective (sorry Fogelbise!), and state that I'm a huge collector of dreaming memes. And what I caught up is the number of ordinary people (non-lucid dreamers) that exposes the super common situation of experiencing an FA in week days. I'd go as far and actually hypothesize that false awakenings could be a "desync" of the two mechanics: homeostatis and circadian clock.

There's a study that I've been trying to find for a bit that relates to this post. Point is, it would make all sense: you start building adrenocorticotropin at a faster/earlier rate than expected because of X event (school/work), but since your body is still locked on a sleep trance, your brain would "counter" this by providing you with a false awakening. A bit of a crazy theory, but it would explain why we see so many reports of false awakenings before important/stressful days (can't be late for school, got a meeting tomorrow), or in our case, I'm about to become lucid! You may think lucidity and waking life are different concepts here, but I'd say the brain interprets lucidity as it is: a step up closer to wakefulness, so it would make sense that your brain would try to prevent you from going lucid, because it really seems like you're waking up.

There's a technique in the book of Daniel Love (had the book in my hand today, need to check) that according to his reports, consists on stressing yourself with alarms to wake up in a false awakening. This is the inventor of the CAT technique, so I'd say it looks a pretty reliable method, and once again, this way of inducing fa's coincides with the reports people make.

All of this also makes me wonder if FAs have a purpose and if the brain is attempting to counter lucidity. Reading around the web some theorize that FAs often present things that we need to confront, but the ones that I remember are not confrontational or scary.

Sometimes, i remember FAs with me going to pee. Also, as Zoth, i remember FAs in which i am telling my family my LDing experiences. So, at least some FAs seem to reflect future waking life intentions.

They are very common to lucid dreamers because- and this is an opinion - they are more aware of micro-awakenings, probably as an effort to recall the dream or apply techniques. In some of these awakenings, they might think « oh i must wake up and do this, i have to go to school...». In others, i agree it might be mechanism to counter lucidity because, after a micro awakening, it would be easier to spot some oddity. So, i would expect FAs to be more common in the late hours, when microawakenings are much more common, as the thoughts of waking up to do something.

Sometimes, i remember FAs with me going to pee. Also, as Zoth, i remember FAs in which i am telling my family my LDing experiences. So, at least some FAs seem to reflect future waking life intentions.

That's an interesting part of the discussion I wasn't aware. Do you guys feel like false awakenings present specific dream content (apart from the innate characteristics it already possesses)? I honestly just picture a false awakening as a kinda of mental shortcut to prevent the individual from waking up and as a "bridge" that connects to the rest of the dream process. I mean, did anyone here experienced a false awakening where the whole rest of the dream was in the context of waking life behavior, as opposite of the dream taking another different direction/plot?

Originally Posted by Zoth

That's an interesting part of the discussion I wasn't aware.

Do you guys feel like false awakenings present specific dream content (apart from the innate characteristics it already possesses)?

I honestly just picture a false awakening as a kinda of mental shortcut to prevent the individual from waking up and as a "bridge" that connects to the rest of the dream process.

I mean, did anyone here experienced a false awakening where the whole rest of the dream was in the context of waking life behavior, as opposite of the dream taking another different direction/plot?

I favour this "bridge" interpretation over the "bouncer" one - but again - on minimal experience.
From what I read on here - these FA dreams seem to often be very short, and then you awake for real, if you do not notice it and transfer to LD.
And I got the impression - these short dreams are pretty much like normal life would be.
In my case, I was not at home - waking up at my friends - which is not that exotic - and the following stuff was all very mundane - real-life-like.
As said - fiddling with technical devices, talking about LD, then breakfast with the three and a perfectly banal discussion - in seemingly real-time all this - like it would be..
No green elephants* flying in through the windows..


*I´d like to dream one of these now..

Originally Posted by Zoth

That's an interesting part of the discussion I wasn't aware. Do you guys feel like false awakenings present specific dream content (apart from the innate characteristics it already possesses)? I honestly just picture a false awakening as a kinda of mental shortcut to prevent the individual from waking up and as a "bridge" that connects to the rest of the dream process. I mean, did anyone here experienced a false awakening where the whole rest of the dream was in the context of waking life behavior, as opposite of the dream taking another different direction/plot?

Though I tend to agree with your description of a FA, I must admit, Zoth, that I've had many FA's that went on, in their own context, for quite some time. I once had one that had me waking up, going about my morning rituals (or at least remembering during the dream that I did so), and then going outside and having conversations with neighbors. Now, those conversations were completely abnormal, as was the atmosphere of the dream (wrong season, my house was all wrong -- though very cool, people who were strangers in waking life were familiar to me), but my mindset was clearly focused on being up from sleep for the rest of the dream, which could have lasted an hour or so.

Also, I've had many FA's where I lay there remembering the dream I was just in, in a very un-bridgelike manner; almost a break from the dream process. As if to further the destruction, after these FA's went on for quite some time, they often ended in another FA (and another, and another...to a point where even lucidly I couldn't break the chain, but just had to wait around for the real world to appear).

So I guess I see your point that FA's are a bridge -- which sort of coincides with the note I made somewhere above about a momentary laps of creativity. But there may be exceptions to this rule ... or perhaps we are attaching the term "FA" to more than one type of dream phenomenon.

I had a fairly long reply and lost it last night, but the most important part of it was: Thank you Steph for your recap on the research!

Good point Steph about your two FAs in a row. Your first FA seemed like another example of a potential countering mechanism whereas the second one seemed like just the opposite...I wonder why it shifted.

Originally Posted by StephL

I meant in that case - a maybe expectation-driven losing of a LD.
But I am not so sure - like last night - they do fade after their own fashion, rather - and maybe the FA is rather you wanting back in..?

In the LDs that I recall fading into an FA, I was happily going along with no expectation that it was about to end until I got the feeling of fading back towards my sleeping body, but perhaps I misinterpreted that feeling and then expected to be waking up...hmm...more to think about. Once I get that feeling of fading out of the dream I also don't feel like I have any time left to save myself from waking up with spinning techniques and the like because I already assume myself to be too far on the way out of the dream...again possibly a misinterpretation on my part at least in some of the cases. This seems even more likely since I don't recall trying to save the dream with spinning or the like (only via DEILD attempts). I, for some reason, don't seem to worry about an LD ending. Perhaps I should worry about - or more accurately put a little more focus on - keeping the dream going.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

Sometimes, i remember FAs with me going to pee. Also, as Zoth, i remember FAs in which i am telling my family my LDing experiences. So, at least some FAs seem to reflect future waking life intentions.

Some of my false awakenings involve me rolling over and writing in my DJ. That could either be future waking life intention or just the fact that is fairly common part of my mundane waking process. Your example does sound more like a future waking life intention, unless you often get up and talk to your family about your LDing experiences and it has become more routine.

They are very common to lucid dreamers because- and this is an opinion - they are more aware of micro-awakenings, probably as an effort to recall the dream or apply techniques. In some of these awakenings, they might think « oh i must wake up and do this, i have to go to school...». In others, i agree it might be mechanism to counter lucidity because, after a micro awakening, it would be easier to spot some oddity. So, i would expect FAs to be more common in the late hours, when microawakenings are much more common, as the thoughts of waking up to do something.

I agree, all of the above fits with my thinking on the subject and on that last point, I do feel like my FAs are clustered more in "the late hours."

Originally Posted by Zoth

I honestly just picture a false awakening as a kinda of mental shortcut to prevent the individual from waking up and as a "bridge" that connects to the rest of the dream process. I mean, did anyone here experienced a false awakening where the whole rest of the dream was in the context of waking life behavior, as opposite of the dream taking another different direction/plot?

My FAs tend to diverge from any waking life similarities fairly quickly but I am glad Sageous provided a good example. As Sageous suggested "perhaps we are attaching the term 'FA' to more than one type of dream phenomenon" or there could also just be different types of FAs.

I'd go as far and actually hypothesize that false awakenings could be a "desync" of the two mechanics: homeostatis and circadian clock.

There's a study that I've been trying to find for a bit that relates to this post<*link to a study was here in original reply, if anyone missed it. Point is, it would make all sense: you start building adrenocorticotropin at a faster/earlier rate than expected because of X event (school/work), but since your body is still locked on a sleep trance, your brain would "counter" this by providing you with a false awakening. A bit of a crazy theory, but it would explain why we see so many reports of false awakenings before important/stressful days (can't be late for school, got a meeting tomorrow), or in our case, I'm about to become lucid! You may think lucidity and waking life are different concepts here, but I'd say the brain interprets lucidity as it is: a step up closer to wakefulness, so it would make sense that your brain would try to prevent you from going lucid, because it really seems like you're waking up.

I like that hypothesis. It also fits with what I have noticed recently that although I am more likely to have an LD after 4.5 hours of sleep, the likelihood seems to go down the closer I get to the time that I need to get up (seems different from cases where I had planned to sleep in). If our brain wanted to keep us away from wakefulness - whether actual wakefulness or the lucid dreaming variety - it does make sense that any such mechanism would occur more frequently towards the latter sleeping cycles when you are both closer to waking and when our primary dreaming/REM cycles are closer together.

Originally Posted by StephL

No green elephants* flying in through the windows..

I have had some go odd but perhaps I missed the transition from FA to more dream-like subjects. In the example I am thinking of now, I was in a bedroom setting with the idea that I had awoken there (perhaps I hadn't) just with some additional woman I didn't know who after a few incidents was attempting to do some voodoo-like spell on me there in the bedroom. I think that I was semi-lucid before the voodoo convinced me that I needed to stop her and, if anything, pulled me away from being lucid ironically.

Originally Posted by Sageous

...but my mindset was clearly focused on being up from sleep for the rest of the dream, which could have lasted an hour or so.

I was wondering if others had such examples, thank you.

Also, I've had many FA's where I lay there remembering the dream I was just in, in a very un-bridgelike manner; almost a break from the dream process. As if to further the destruction, after these FA's went on for quite some time, they often ended in another FA (and another, and another...to a point where even lucidly I couldn't break the chain, but just had to wait around for the real world to appear).

What did you mean by "As if to further the destruction" please? Destruction of LD'ing, dreaming, or something else?

FYI, the research does mention "slow (delta) waves" coinciding with the cleaning function but did not say if it was any different during REM, unless I am reading that wrong. Also section E of the graph at the end of the research shows delta waves coinciding with the mechanics of the cleaning function when using "NE receptor antagonists" but minimal and opposition correlation when awake for theta, alpha and beta waves:

research.jpg

If can't see it clearly enough you can enlarge the last graph from the original research link: Sleep Drives Metabolite Clearance from the Adult Brain

I will stop there, my apologies, I am too tired to re-check everything I wrote for mistakes at the moment.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

What did you mean by "As if to further the destruction" please? Destruction of LD'ing, dreaming, or something else?

The destruction of the LD, or of self-awareness.

If there were a mechanism, a natural mechanism, to thwart (destroy) self-awareness in dreams (after, of course, a dreamer cleared all the other mechanisms that seem to be in place to thwart LD'ing), the basic structure of FA's seems to exemplify it.

And yes, by the fifth or sixth consecutive FA, a dreamer will really begin to think that someone or something is putting this shit in place just to fight lucidity.

Originally Posted by Sageous

..

So I guess I see your point that FA's are a bridge -- which sort of coincides with the note I made somewhere above about a momentary laps of creativity. But there may be exceptions to this rule ... or perhaps we are attaching the term "FA" to more than one type of dream phenomenon.

Which phenomena do you have in mind?

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I had a fairly long reply and lost it last night, but the most important part of it was: Thank you Steph for your recap on the research!

My FAs tend to diverge from any waking life similarities fairly quickly but I am glad Sageous provided a good example. As Sageous suggested "perhaps we are attaching the term 'FA' to more than one type of dream phenomenon" or there could also just be different types of FAs.

You are very welcome - as it is - thank you for revisiting it, and noting, that they do correlate to specific brain-wave states.
How do you mean this with the different types of FA?

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I like that hypothesis. It also fits with what I have noticed recently that although I am more likely to have an LD after 4.5 hours of sleep, the likelihood seems to go down the closer I get to the time that I need to get up (seems different from cases where I had planned to sleep in).

If our brain wanted to keep us away from wakefulness - whether actual wakefulness or the lucid dreaming variety - it does make sense that any such mechanism would occur more frequently towards the latter sleeping cycles when you are both closer to waking and when our primary dreaming/REM cycles are closer together.

Not sure I follow this line of thinking - in my view - your brain does not need to hinder your brain from doing something.

I just hypothesize a bit now ..:

Towards the end of your sleep - you are more prone to wakefulness.
This is normal, wanted and also directed by the brain´s automatic functions.
And since lucidity is also rather being awake - it is easier towards the end of the sleep-cycle.

A false awakening is an event within a dream, isn´t it?
You are dreaming before - and afterwards as well, without waking up in between.

So - it is something your dream-generator throws up.
Maybe because this generator gets put off the usual track by the fact, that you are dreaming lucidly.
Even if not in that instant but only often ..

What I mean is - there is not somebody with an intention to hinder, there just are unusual data - unusual cognitive content stemming from lucidity.
Up to more regions in the brain being active while LD.
At the same time as these unusual phenomena take place - your automatic dream-generator has to go on working, if you do not take on total and full control.

So - presented with unusual inputs, which resemble waking life - it throws up waking life onset as the dream.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

FYI, the research does mention "slow (delta) waves" coinciding with the cleaning function but did not say if it was any different during REM, unless I am reading that wrong.

Also section E of the graph at the end of the research shows delta waves coinciding with the mechanics of the cleaning function when using "NE receptor antagonists" but minimal and opposition correlation when awake for theta, alpha and beta waves:

research.jpg

If can't see it clearly enough you can enlarge the last graph from the original research link: Sleep Drives Metabolite Clearance from the Adult Brain

I have to check it out once more - but I think, the graph you attached, does show that clearance is associated not only with sleep in general and with anaesthesia - but it is also associated with giving norepinephrine (NE) antagonists.
Another way of knocking out mice, these are:

We next evaluated whether adrenergic receptor inhibition increased interstitial volume in the same manner as sleep and anesthesia.

They were not really interested in REM sleep in my impression, since REM looks almost like waking live - oscillations with a low voltage amplitude, but higher frequency.

They found, that during such oscillations - alpha and beta ones esp. - there is not a lot of clearance.
This seems to me implicitly to mean, that there is also only minimal clearance in REM - even if they do not mention it as such.

The clearance peak goes with nREM sleep - esp. delta waves.
Those belong in the deepest sleep-stages - esp. nREM #3 - they have a high voltage amplitude with a very low frequency of oscillation between 0–4 hertz.

What I didn´t know - just read now - our total REM time starts out with 9 hours as newborns - and towards the eighth year - it goes down to about three hours, and does not change much from then on (German Wikipedia).

I never looked into a normal sleep science/background section of the forum yet - hmmm.

Originally Posted by StephL

Originally Posted by Sageous

So I guess I see your point that FA's are a bridge -- which sort of coincides with the note I made somewhere above about a momentary laps of creativity. But there may be exceptions to this rule ... or perhaps we are attaching the term "FA" to more than one type of dream phenomenon.

Which phenomena do you have in mind?

Here are a couple:

* Just this morning, I had a long (mostly) non-lucid dream in which I learned something "very important" about the real source of our minds' higher functions. During the dream I actually said, "I wish I were lucid so I could hold onto this." Go figure. Anyway, I woke up in a moment and looked for a pad to write down my discovery. I found it quickly, and ignored its purple pages and the fact that there was no pen around, and that I never had a side table by my bed that looked like that. A few minutes later I awoke for real, with nothing left to remember but the feeling of that first dreams importance. [full disclosure: I have had many dreams that I deemed "important" during the dream and upon waking, discovered that that important thing that came to me in a dream was pretty much meaningless.]

* I have had many long series of FA's while fully lucid, where I would shift from awakening to awakening, same scene after same scene, unable to break from the loop even though I knew exactly what was going on. Since I wasn't being fooled, I guess you can't call the awakening false, but I did keep getting dragged into the same simple scene (usually my bedroom, but sometimes an equally simple version of another place altogether) with no escape except the long wait to natural waking.

What I didn´t know - just read now - our total REM time starts out with 9 hours as newborns - and towards the eighth year - it goes down to about three hours, and does not change much from then on (German Wikipedia).

^^ In a way that's not even funny, Zoth -- especially for us old guys!

Originally Posted by Zoth

Not too young* - I rather think, the problem is a lack of teachers and a cultural environment to grow up in, where LD is taught to children.
Or rather where they get guidance by experienced adults - since I think, most children have lucid dreams anyway - but they might not recognize them in their full bandwidth.

I know, I did - and regularly - but I wasn´t aware of the power and possibilities of it - I knew I was dreaming, I could do some special things, that I could not do in reality - like flying and making huge leaps - but I do not remember, if I questioned and understood more of it back then - I just pretty much took it as a given, when it happened.


If there is nobody with whom to speak about it - something can get more easily forgotten about - with no re-enforcement.
Children should be amazing with LD - much more easily teachable. At least so goes my thinking..


*Edit - with max. REM directly after birth - there can be no such guidance - and so the saying is of course correct - I just wanted to chime in this above..

Originally Posted by StephL

Not too young* - I rather think, the problem is a lack of teachers and a cultural environment to grow up in, where LD is taught to children.
Or rather where they get guidance by experienced adults - since I think, most children have lucid dreams anyway - but they might not recognize them in their full bandwidth.

I know, I did - and regularly - but I wasn´t aware of the power and possibilities of it - I knew I was dreaming, I could do some special things, that I could not do in reality - like flying and making huge leaps - but I do not remember, if I questioned and understood more of it back then - I just pretty much took it as a given, when it happened.


If there is nobody with whom to speak about it - something can get more easily forgotten about - with no re-enforcement.
Children should be amazing with LD - much more easily teachable. At least so goes my thinking..

yea! That's why I was so lucky to have my mom as a LDer too. She gave me guidance when i was just a little kid, and it led to me never abandoning LDing after childhood, and I've progressively gotten better. I think that, compared to a lot of people my age, I'm pretty good at LDing. I find it really difficult to find people my age IRL to talk to about LD stuff because of this. Most of the time when I get lucky and find a person that has LDs, they are still in the excitement over flying stage. Which is also part of why I love dreamviews, so many highly experienced people that have far more knowledge about it than I do.


Sorry, this is totally off topic, but I just had to respond to what Steph said.

Hm - interesting - the first sounds like wanting to wake up to hold on to this knowledge.
And these loops of FAs over FAs over more sound horrible - is that a common phenomenon?

Originally Posted by StephL

Hm - interesting - the first sounds like wanting to wake up to hold on to this knowledge.
And these loops of FAs over FAs over more sound horrible - is that a common phenomenon?

It sure is for me! I think I've heard it mentioned now and again, though...

Originally Posted by StephL

How do you mean this with the different types of FA?

I could see differentiating between some of the different kinds that we have discussed in here or like Sageous' distinct examples. More simply you could differentiate between FAs that occur in a manner that makes some sense and ones that make no sense at all. One of mine, I woke up in work area had a little interaction with a co-worker, but realized it was strange that I was laying down at work and became lucid...these seem more rare than waking up in a previous place you might have slept (childhood home, friends or relatives home, etc). Wikipedia references a Celia Green that has lucid dreaming experience and proposed two types of FAs "Type 1" and "Type 2." False awakening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So - it is something your dream-generator throws up.
Maybe because this generator gets put off the usual track by the fact, that you are dreaming lucidly.
Even if not in that instant but only often ..

What I mean is - there is not somebody with an intention to hinder, there just are unusual data - unusual cognitive content stemming from lucidity.
Up to more regions in the brain being active while LD.
At the same time as these unusual phenomena take place - your automatic dream-generator has to go on working, if you do not take on total and full control.

So - presented with unusual inputs, which resemble waking life - it throws up waking life onset as the dream.

This makes a lot of sense to me! Perhaps we are getting somewhere in figuring out FAs!

This seems to me implicitly to mean, that there is also only minimal clearance in REM - even if they do not mention it as such.

This is what I was hoping! We had a member on DV that decided to give up on lucid dreaming citing an article regarding that exact study as a primary reason.

What I didn´t know - just read now - our total REM time starts out with 9 hours as newborns - and towards the eighth year - it goes down to about three hours, and does not change much from then on (German Wikipedia).

Too late for me...too late for my son...perhaps grandkids in the future...

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

Sorry, this is totally off topic, but I just had to respond to what Steph said.

No worries at all and welcome anotherdreamer! My father told me about it as a way to fight off nightmares but I don't think he LD'ed very often so once I conquered my nightmares we didn't really talk about it again until recently...Long story short, I didn't get back into LD'ing until decades later (just 10 months ago). You are lucky!

Originally Posted by Sageous

It sure is for me! I think I've heard it mentioned now and again, though...

I have seen other examples like yours as well here on DV but it doesn't seem to be very common and I haven't had a repeating FA so far.

If there were a mechanism, a natural mechanism, to thwart (destroy) self-awareness in dreams (after, of course, a dreamer cleared all the other mechanisms that seem to be in place to thwart LD'ing), the basic structure of FA's seems to exemplify it.

This was definitely one of my concerns when starting this thread. I want to find a way to counter the FAs, though I might think twice about doing that if they have an important purpose and are not just filling in a gap in our dreams.

^^ Those wikipedia definitions weren't very impressive; I think you might be making better headway here.

Also, keep in mind that, as LD'ers, we're seeking to counter an important natural function all the time; that function being one of no awareness that we are dreaming. So don't be too concerned if you discover FA's have a function... unless of course that function has been expressly created to curb your LD's... but to me that only makes a new challenge, and not a place we shouldn't go.

I know, whom you mean, fogelbise - yesterday, I came across such a post - referring to a study on clearance - by LukeSid - if that name is correct - I even tried to link him up in here per pm - but he does not receive pms in general - shame that I couldn´t get through.
But maybe if he posts somewhere else - I might have an opportunity.
Are we talking about the same member?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Those wikipedia definitions weren't very impressive; I think you might be making better headway here.

Also, keep in mind that, as LD'ers, we're seeking to counter an important natural function all the time; that function being one of no awareness that we are dreaming. So don't be too concerned if you discover FA's have a function... unless of course that function has been expressly created to curb your LD's... but to me that only makes a new challenge, and not a place we shouldn't go.

Good points all around...Wikipedia can be all over the place in terms of reliable information. I do feel better seeing that signs point to most of the "brain cleaning" activity appears to be happening during delta sleep/slow wave brain activity.

Originally Posted by StephL

I know, whom you mean, fogelbise - yesterday, I came across such a post - referring to a study on clearance - by LukeSid - if that name is correct - I even tried to link him up in here per pm - but he does not receive pms in general - shame that I couldn´t get through.
But maybe if he posts somewhere else - I might have an opportunity.
Are we talking about the same member?

Yes, that is the member I was speaking of. He seemed like a nice guy and DV member.

I had a WILD attempt last night that I would like to classify as a distinct form of FA but I could see arguments coming in for it to be pushed over to the HH column. For me, when I get vibrations (I know not everyone does or needs to feel vibrations) that I am at the door to the dream and can quickly "transfer to my dream body" if you will. I had the vibrations and knew I was about to enter the dream and I felt my wife lean over from her spot in the bed and speak into my ear "what are you doing" or something like that as if she noticed me shaking with the vibrations. I tried to treat it as HH and move on but just the thought of whether it was real or not woke me up completely and I rolled over and asked my wife if she just said anything. She was awake and she said no she did not, I asked her "are you sure you didn't say anything to me in the last few minutes?" She said no. So again, I could see the argument for calling it HH audio but it also felt like being woken up thus the potential label as a type of FA. I guess the question would be why call it a FA? Perhaps some people that had the same experience that I did would not think of it as HH and would very well mistake it for an actual waking life event (that the spouse did roll over and say something) and might miss the opportunity to correct this issue. This is something that has popped up in some of my WILD attempts and I think it is the last hurdle to being able to WILD more consistently.