Thread: ADA Flaw

You present understandable concerns. The important thing is balance. You don´t have to shutt off thoughts, i think.

I feel that the reason for that is because ADA depends on the attention of the subject being focused on the physical environment

Why ? You can pay attention to your thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations..not just to the environment.

Planning the future and thinking back into the past, playing scenarios in our heads, philosophizing over abstract contexts; I don't think those things are bad habits anymore and the problem is that they are incompatible with the ADA technique I use

These are not bad habits at all, and i don´t think you should give up these for ADA. It won´t make you smarter. Even daydreaming is important, some studies have found. The important thing is balance. ADA is not for you if you can´t find this balance.

I think my problem is that I have to change my technique for my awareness to not only be focused on physical activities but also mental activities.

I agree. Likewise, meditation, also involves introspection and some meditation practices, like meditation on emptiness or loving-kindness meditation involve analysis and, yes, critical thinking.

My concrete goal now for my ADA is to focus my awareness on my thoughts, frequently quiz myself on my train of thoughts (think back to what thoughts brought to the next thoughts and so on, be aware that I am thinking (versus walking, dreaming, driving, etc...), just so I remain aware of my present experience (even if it is an abstract experience in the thought realm) and of the context in which I am.

That´s just a great idea. In non-lucid dreams, our thinking is not very logical. It can be a good reality-check to watch your mind thinking, wandering, daydreaming. They can become your friends, and not your enemies - i think. Indeed, you can do that while you are falling asleep too, and you will notice odd thoughts, memory gaps. And that may be used to WILD, or just to fall asleep consciously at bed time.

Lucid dreaming is not a "more is better" program The key is quality and consistency over quantity.

ADA is a great technique, but you're not meant to stay all-day aware. First of all, it's impossible: we weren't biologically designed to be aware all the time. Processes like day-dreaming are actually relevant to our memory regulation, and among other things, they help you "cool off" from the pressure of all the cognitive tasks and challenges we all go through during the day. I'm a bigger fan of other perspective on awareness (you can read it more in this thread, Sageous explains it perfectly).

The most important thing you have to understand about awareness, is that is not the same as focus. Focus is when you devote attention resources to a particular stimulus. As you can easily guess, this takes a mental toll if you stretch it for long periods, and not only it makes you distracted from other things, but also tires you as much as if you had physical exercise. I'll repeat: you should not try that type of awareness for long periods, we aren't made for it. So what awareness should you practice?

Mindfulness. I'll use this googled translation to show you the difference between mindfulness and ADA:

a mental state achieved by focusing one's awareness on the present moment, while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts, and bodily sensations, used as a therapeutic technique.

Mindfulness refers not to absorb your surroundings, or any sensory input for that matter. It simply relates to the now. And practicing mindfulness is all about "being". Being comes before any sensation, any thought, any stimulus, any identity. As you may have realized, it's a lot like a certain type of meditation. You mentioned that ADA seems to require an attention to the physical world. Well, for mindfulness, nothing matters. You simply "are": thoughts may come, are acknowledged, but you direct no attention to them. Sensations are acknowledge, discarded. The entire value is on the concept of "being". Unlike ADA, mindfulness won't drain you, because you are not exercising any kinda of mental task, you're just putting your mind at rest. And the best tool to make you lucid isn't imo the fact that you're 100% aware to your surroundings: everyone is aware to their surroundings in a normal dream: what matters is being in the moment, in the present. By being aware of yourself, of the reality, regardless of whatever happens around you, is the key to determine your state. Turning off from every stimulus around you, being oblivious to reality, is the best way to disconnect yourself from the dream plot and dwell into your own consciousness. This is as hard (or harder) than ADA, because it's not a question of "Take 5 or 10 minutes to notice everything you can", but a question of "try not to loose yourself into the world: live in the present". Now like everything, your mind will wander and you will get distracted and day-dream: that's all fine. Your goal is to acknowledge those moments and live them knowingly: whether you're going on the bus or talking to someone, don't try to absorb the entire experience. Rather, focus on the present, and acept everything (thoughts, emotions), as external to the "being" you are. You'll find yourself inside any reality (waking or dream) that your brain puts you on.

Hope this helped, if not I'll explain a bit further

You might find this thread worth the read:

http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...-lucidity.html

Originally Posted by Meskhetyw

You might find this thread worth the read:

http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...-lucidity.html

I'm sorry but that thread, beyond the first couple of pages at best, is nothing but a flame war. I honestly expected better from KingYoshi and Sageous. I respect both of them greatly, but not when they take these things personally

Originally Posted by areyoume

I'm sorry but that thread, beyond the first couple of pages at best, is nothing but a flame war. I honestly expected better from KingYoshi and Sageous. I respect both of them greatly, but not when they take these things personally

Not really a flame war. More like disagrement from 2 people passionate about the topic. And if you notice, half way through they make peace. Disagreements don't diminish value of all the information posted. If anything, it gives your 2 different points of view.

Originally Posted by gab

Not really a flame war. More like disagrement from 2 people passionate about the topic. And if you notice, half way through they make peace. Disagreements don't diminish value of all the information posted. If anything, it gives your 2 different points of view.

-your childish arrogance that buried it. Thanks
- Maybe you should look into a mirror before you start dropping these labels on me, lol.
-Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts...
-suggesting humor or -- God forgive me -- speaking to you as an equal.
Definitely not a flamewar
Although I do agree with you. There is some information in that thread, but I'm afraid it can be clouded with their pride and thus mislead people.

It helps if you recall that the golden years for lucid dreaming happened with the continuous clash between the two most notable scientists on the field (they weren't this far in their conversation though, I think xD).

I guess the lesson you OP should take is that a topic not such well-defined as awareness practice can encase several perspectives, and in this case when it involves 2 lucid dreamers with loads of experiences, you should take both of their word and stick with what works with you. Despite any critique (don't get me wrong: critique is always good) to any lucid dreaming technique, it will always hold value to (at least) a few onironauts.

I think you totally missed what actually happened in that thread, but let's not get into that.

It was well made and I gained some insight from it. I have read through it actually several times. Forget the fact that it stirred up some irritation, and focus on the effort put into it.

For what it's worth:

Originally Posted by areyoume

I'm sorry but that thread, beyond the first couple of pages at best, is nothing but a flame war. I honestly expected better from KingYoshi and Sageous. I respect both of them greatly, but not when they take these things personally

Yes, a large section of that thread was, regrettably, a real mess. I expected better of myself, as well, but by the time I realized I had stepped in it big-time, it was too late. Still, I think if you can ignore all the crap, there was some useful discussion on the topic... though ignoring the crap is a bitch, I know!

What's your point, areyoume? You really want to argue about if it was or wasn't a flame war? Who cares? Use the info in that thread or don't use it. Your call. But please don't turn this thread into off topic and an argument about something so insignificant.

Thank you VagalTone and Zoth; your posts helped me reflect on awareness.

You speak of the difference between mindfulness and focused attention. I agree with that. I also agree that we are not supposed to be aware of 100% of the things that are happening around us and within us given that is just impossible. We just need to be aware of our being. However, it brings me to a question.

As sentient beings, we are always conscious/aware/mindful unless we are sleeping or in a coma. Now, what makes someone more mindful than another if it is not focused attention? Is it alertness? Someone that is sick and slow could be more mindful than someone that is alert in a chess contest. Is mindfulness just being aware of one's awareness? How do you measure your own awareness, your own mindfulness? I think it is important or else, how can I tell what I have to do or if I'm on the right track at all.

As for the ADA: Right or Wrong for Lucidity thread, I feel like I read it a while ago and greatly enjoyed Sageous' initial post. My only issue is I cannot bring myself to think that asking myself how I affect the world and how the world affect me be the key for a nearly continuous mindfulness or just mindfulness at all. (Although, it is now a question I ask myself more frequently). I hope I am talking about the right thread.

And I do value the act of being mindful 100% of the time because I think that a moment lived without mindfulness loses a lot of value just because of how much less intense that moment becomes. To me mindfulness is a synonym of being alive as far as my consciousness is concerned.

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

As sentient beings, we are always conscious/aware/mindful unless we are sleeping or in a coma. Now, what makes someone more mindful than another if it is not focused attention? Is it alertness? Someone that is sick and slow could be more mindful than someone that is alert in a chess contest. Is mindfulness just being aware of one's awareness? How do you measure your own awareness, your own mindfulness? I think it is important or else, how can I tell what I have to do or if I'm on the right track at all.

Hopefully Zoth will elaborate on this because he could probably explain it better than I, but here is my view: mindfulness is a sort of focused attention, but it's more generalized and you are not putting pressure on yourself. There are different types of awareness and mindfulness, but in this case it refers specifically to acknowledging what comes naturally.

"Regular" focused attention has it's purposes; when I am out in public, I focus on my surroundings intently. This sort of focus is very draining, but keeps you "alert" and generally safe. You are choosing what to focus on in this case, which takes more mental effort. Trying to focus on everything is, again, impossible. With mindfulness, you simply focus on what appears, then let it go. If you can do this well, you will begin to program your own mind and even start to see how your surroundings affect your subconscious and, in turn, how that affects you. In my opinion this is the most valuable aspect of mindfulness. You gain control of your normally unconscious reactions to virtually everything, and get to choose new pathways of thought.

As for the ADA: Right or Wrong for Lucidity thread, I feel like I read it a while ago and greatly enjoyed Sageous' initial post. My only issue is I cannot bring myself to think that asking myself how I affect the world and how the world affect me be the key for a nearly continuous mindfulness or just mindfulness at all. (Although, it is now a question I ask myself more frequently). I hope I am talking about the right thread.

The more you practice the RRC, I think, the more it becomes continuous, but that depends on if you want that. I've been throwing it into my practice for the last few months, and have noticed that it is useful particularly when I am really distracted (See below).

And I do value the act of being mindful 100% of the time because I think that a moment lived without mindfulness loses a lot of value just because of how much less intense that moment becomes. To me mindfulness is a synonym of being alive as far as my consciousness is concerned.

Interesting perspective. We are indeed all different. I am personally very introspective, so a day filled with continuous mindfulness would not be pleasant, or even productive for me. When I am walking around, speaking with someone, or what have you, I tend to keep up my LDing practices very well, but when I am training other skills for fun, reading, listening to music, or creating, I generally let mindfulness fall away as it is a distraction for me (I can see the Buddhists rolling their eyes at that one). That said, during these moments every half hour or so I step back and become very self aware for a good minute. This is where I have found the RRC to really fit into my practice. I used to do this sort of thing before, but not with the specific reality related questions that Sageous suggests. I find that the addition of these questions really helps to make my practice more complete, so that if I spend a particularly long time in these activities, my awareness is still pretty constant. After all, it is in those particularly engaging dreams that we really need the ability to step back and see ourselves.

Meskhetyw, I have reflected upon your comment and I do understand and agree with it, I actually did not have anything to add so I went back to my initial post and reflected as to what was my own goal with posting this thread.

I think it is was exactly that, the way I lose mindfulness when I get lost into something, may it be studying, reading, thinking and how I seek to maintain mindfulness through those less physical activities. I see the way you go about them, is you allow to lose yourself but are quite good at resurfacing now and then so that you stay in control. That is what I understood. That is better than me, who so easily remains in that lost sleepy state until I resurface much later that day. I think an even greater obstacle is that when I am in this lost sleepy state, I struggle to even want to be mindful. There's a part of me that really wants to be mindful and another that just wants to sleep, so to speak. And the sleeping voice has such an easier way. I've got to fix that.

Now, let's say I do become like you and can easily become mindful and let my mindfulness go and so on in a continuous and very productive cycle. Could I, and how would I, stay mindful while doing something that requires a lot of attention and that must be done rapidly such as writing an essay or learning a specific something? That is, I have no time to stop and ask myself any irrelevant question about my position and my context. Am I just making all of this too complicated? As I said, being sentient beings, we are conscious a 100% of the time so I already do have all day awareness. Techniques such as ADA and RCC "only just" allow us to be more aware of our position, our context, our influences and our effects. Therefore, if I have good mindfulness habits, if I've got to stop questioning myself for a while, just so I can get lost in creating a piece of art or what have you, I can just remain alert of what I am doing and after or here and there ask myself the awareness questions and focus my attention here and there and remember where I stand in time and etc... and I will have an optimal awareness? Is it this simple? That is the answer to the long sought ideal awareness?

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I struggle to even want to be mindful. There's a part of me that really wants to be mindful and another that just wants to sleep, so to speak. And the sleeping voice has such an easier way. I've got to fix that.

That all depends on your goals, and what you really want out of mindfulness. A few examples:

1.) I practice mindfulness (general) so that I can control my reactions. An example is, say you are in a grocery store and you are not hungry. You see something; a food item which has been specifically researched to make you hungry, from the packaging down to it's placement and the words used in any ad that may be present. Through mindfulness, I see easily my sudden hunger, realize that I am being manipulated, and can choose to give in (because I want that thing) or to simply observe the thought until it evaporates, which it inevitably will.

2.) I practice "ADA" when in the world, as said before, because it is very difficult to ambush an alert individual. As an aside, it is not paranoia, I simply enjoy doing this, and it has helped on many occasions.

3.) Finally: RRC, Dream Yoga (a modified version), and self-awareness in general I practice for lucid dreaming.

Your goals will be different. You may find that ADA is your best LDing practice. The point is to find this out, and as a result your motivation will go up, and you can decide when and where to use your mindfulness.

Now, let's say I do become like you and can easily become mindful and let my mindfulness go and so on in a continuous and very productive cycle. Could I, and how would I, stay mindful while doing something that requires a lot of attention and that must be done rapidly such as writing an essay or learning a specific something? That is, I have no time to stop and ask myself any irrelevant question about my position and my context. Am I just making all of this too complicated? As I said, being sentient beings, we are conscious a 100% of the time so I already do have all day awareness. Techniques such as ADA and RCC "only just" allow us to be more aware of our position, our context, our influences and our effects. Therefore, if I have good mindfulness habits, if I've got to stop questioning myself for a while, just so I can get lost in creating a piece of art or what have you, I can just remain alert of what I am doing and after or here and there ask myself the awareness questions and focus my attention here and there and remember where I stand in time and etc... and I will have an optimal awareness? Is it this simple? That is the answer to the long sought ideal awareness?

"Ideal" as a universal is not something I would focus on, because again, you have to find your own ideal awareness. To answer your first question: again in my personal case, when I am learning a physical skill for example, I will at first have to focus on it entirely until I develop the muscle memory to expand my awareness beyond the activity. With physical skills it becomes very difficult to explain the zone you can end up in, but it is very tranquil. I am getting off the point though, which is simply that with practice you can eventually choose to be mindful even during very complex physical activity, like martial arts.

In the case of writing an essay, you got me there. There is never a time where I even want to be mindful continuously through this. I like short stories myself, and while I am reading or writing them it is just no fun to lose the fantasy; but that is why I do the RRC, because it takes that effort to pull myself away, and that is in my opinion the most important time to periodically become aware if you want to become aware in those dreams where you are fully engrossed.

If you do focus training (I forgot the term used in yoga, but it is one-pointed focus on an object) you will soon learn of the conscious mind's problem with multi-tasking, which is why actions must become unconscious through practice. Unfortunately, some actions cannot be rendered automatic.

There is really no single answer, but in my case it is periodic self-awareness during really taxing conscious activities, or just really enjoyable ones. Sometimes I simply don't want to be mindful. I am a daydreamer after all (big time). However since my goals listed above take up a large portion of my time, I find myself pretty aware most of the time.

You raise some great questions by the way.

Though I think my first post in that woe-begotten ADA thread mentioned above probably said enough for me, I thought I might add a couple more thoughts to Occipitalred's comments:

First, Occipitalred, sentience does not equal consciousness. Because we are capable of being self-aware (sentience) does not mean that everyone is constantly self-aware 100% of the time. Yes, we're all conscious all the time, but so is anything else that is alive. Indeed, many, many animals practice ADA at a level far higher than ours (a mouse, for instance, is well aware of its surroundings at all times -- even when it's asleep) but they won't have an ounce of mindfulness, ever. This I think is my core problem with ADA: just paying attention to everything, period, without including yourself in the equation, is more a step back in consciousness than forward.

So, though you guys seem to have a clear understanding of mindfulness, I just wanted to throw in that mindfulness, or (in my opinion) self-awareness, is something that you must actively summon to experience. We are not self-aware 100% of the time; not even after many years of practice. In fact, I would argue that most people are not self-aware for much (if not all) of their lives. It is much easier to let the world float by as it will without giving much consideration to our place in it, or even our presence in it.

Next, if you are lost in a project, for instance, or your focus is shut down thanks to a writing project, a good book or movie, or even a video game soaking up your senses, then that would certainly be a time to not bother practicing mindfulness. Take a break.

Also, that RRC I suggested, and its accompanying questions, was meant specifically to prepare its practitioner for being self-aware in a dream, and recognizing in a dream that all its contents are a part of her. So yes, those questions can certainly be changed or ignored, if you're using a RRC during ADA, and yes, an RRC is certainly not the only tool for a proper mindfulness practice. In other words, it's a pretty flexible exercise.

I guess all I wanted to clarify was that self-awareness is not the same as awareness, and just because our senses are switched on all day does not mean that we are all self-aware all the time. Also, just because we are all capable of self-awareness, we are not all automatically self-aware all the time.

Originally Posted by gab

What's your point, areyoume? You really want to argue about if it was or wasn't a flame war? Who cares? Use the info in that thread or don't use it. Your call. But please don't turn this thread into off topic and an argument about something so insignificant.

I'm sorry if it looked that way, all I wanted was to clear things up.

Thank you Sageous and Meskhetyw,
I feel like you have said everything I needed to hear (or wrote everything I needed to read). And I have nothing to add myself. I feel ready to continue my mindful journey.

This is so very, very untrue.

We live in a gigantic organism (called planet earth, which is therefor the organism of another organism, the universe, and it goes on and on and on).

There is no future, past is simply a memory. There is only Now................ And Now.......................... And now..

Take ecologists for example, they run from one thought to another, in a very simple-minded way AS US ALL, trying to save the planet from pollution and destruction.

Yet the only real way is to fix all of this stuff, is to stop thinking we are different from this whole universe and let homeostatis do it's very simple job.

Like the concept of I AM CelestialManners, yet it is only a concept. Like the number 3.

But it is not me, all I am is an organism, like a neuron firing to another neuron in my brain; except on a much more vaster range;
and YOU and I are as much as the tree next to us, or as much as the comet flying through space right now.


Anyways, this may not be actually on-topic, aldeit just be aware that we are COMPLETELY ADDICTED to thinking, and that is not getting us nowhere as of now.

Fact is we invent a technology, for example to stop pollution, yet it only works SHORT-TERM.. Simply because we jump from one thought to another, while later on that technology does not bring any good.


As Alan Watts says, be entirely content of what is.

While I advocate the sense of living in the "now", I disagree a bit with your perspective CelestialManner:

There is no future, past is simply a memory. There is only Now................ And Now.......................... And now..

By that sense, there is no present as well: everything your brain processes is actually delayed electro-chemical content that had to travel from some part of your body to the exact spot where you can experience it, so we can (safely) say we all live in the past. I'll link an interesting video to this when I arrive from work.

Anyways, this may not be actually on-topic, aldeit just be aware that we are COMPLETELY ADDICTED to thinking, and that is not getting us nowhere as of now.

Addiction implies something negative. The way we keep day-dreaming and getting distracted is not a case of addiction, it's simply a matter of evolution: our brain needs day-dreaming as much as it needs sleep, needs as much external stimulus as much as it needs moments of calmness. If someone says "well, it's bad for our lucidity", it would be basically the same as we saying that because we can't breathe underwater, that we are addicted to non-aquatic environments.

Yet the only real way is to fix all of this stuff, is to stop thinking we are different from this whole universe and let homeostatis do it's very simple job.

That's ironically funny, since it's obvious that we aren't hard-wired to be self-aware xD You won't become lucid by being you: you will become lucid by transcending the biological characteristics that we possess along other animals. Like Sageous mentions, mouses process way more information than us. I'd even choose a better analogy and say that we should avoid being like flies: flying around looking at the world like it is. The goal should be seeking yourself inside any reality (aka, being self-aware)

Fact is we invent a technology, for example to stop pollution, yet it only works SHORT-TERM.. Simply because we jump from one thought to another, while later on that technology does not bring any good.

Vaccination, architecture, medicine...Maybe I'm not getting your point (at first I thought I agreed because of your view of "living in the now"), but if anything what makes us such an amazing creature is our capability to transcend natural creation. And technology is only a tool, that is allowing you right now to share your opinion with the world. Misuse of it doesn't make it intrinsically bad.

(I'm not sure if this conversation is off-topic or not xD)

Originally Posted by CelestialManner

... and let homeostatis do it's very simple job.

What is its job?

I need someone to answer me with biological facts:
1-What is self-awareness? knowing or considering your existence? But this is only a mere thought that has no impact, unless in stimulates a part of the brain.If so, what part? Is it the same part that is responsible for lucidity? we know lucidity is realizing that you are in a dream and your body is sleeping, thus itself being self-awareness. If so, we would become lucid by practicing self-awareness how? Is it because when we are more self-aware in our day means we are more self-aware in dreams? Then when the self-awareness reaches a specific level(where the self-awareness part of the brain is functioning at a high level), it would be reaching the threshold of lucidity?
If so, then there is no doubt that RRC is the method to do.
Am I right?

This is not off-topic. I said I focused to much on being aware of my surroundings and I should accept that I must sometimes give up on that type of awareness to be aware of my thoughts because it is an unavoidable reality and more importantly, it is an important reality. CelestialManner is suggesting that thoughts are bad (is what I am understanding) because they are useless and distract us from the power of "homeostasis" the way nature balances and fixes everything without the need to apply any force.

I have to say I disagree. I think your stand, CelestialManner, makes much sense in theory but none in practice. As humans, we experience our surroundings, we have behaviours, we have emotions, we have thoughts. I think we must have a constant/frequent mindfulness of all of these things and to use them. I am sure you do sometimes indulge in tasty foods. I think that is a good thing. I think we must enjoy what life gives us. That means, we also should enjoy our thoughts and our emotions and in the end, if we pay attention to them and filter and push them in a certain direction, that is the only way for us to truly live this life versus being a determined robot. Also, I don't think that is "unnatural". I don't think technology is "unatural". Why do humans think that what they build goes beyond the realm of nature; that is almost arrogance. We are animals too. I think what we have done is good. With medicine and all that like Zoth said. Yes, we have made mistakes here and there. But all the animals out there would make the same mistakes if they had the chance. I think mindfulness of thoughts and emotions is actually crucial to bettering our actions and to fix those problems. In fact, I think it is the lack of mindfulness is what has created most of the corruption that pollutes our world. Continuing to indulge in our predisposed ambition will only perpetuate the cycle that has naturally been set in motion. It will not fix anything. Well, that's my opinion.

Originally Posted by Zoth

While I advocate the sense of living in the "now", I disagree a bit with your perspective CelestialManner:



By that sense, there is no present as well: everything your brain processes is actually delayed electro-chemical content that had to travel from some part of your body to the exact spot where you can experience it, so we can (safely) say we all live in the past. I'll link an interesting video to this when I arrive from work.



Addiction implies something negative. The way we keep day-dreaming and getting distracted is not a case of addiction, it's simply a matter of evolution: our brain needs day-dreaming as much as it needs sleep, needs as much external stimulus as much as it needs moments of calmness. If someone says "well, it's bad for our lucidity", it would be basically the same as we saying that because we can't breathe underwater, that we are addicted to non-aquatic environments.



That's ironically funny, since it's obvious that we aren't hard-wired to be self-aware xD You won't become lucid by being you: you will become lucid by transcending the biological characteristics that we possess along other animals. Like Sageous mentions, mouses process way more information than us. I'd even choose a better analogy and say that we should avoid being like flies: flying around looking at the world like it is. The goal should be seeking yourself inside any reality (aka, being self-aware)



Vaccination, architecture, medicine...Maybe I'm not getting your point (at first I thought I agreed because of your view of "living in the now"), but if anything what makes us such an amazing creature is our capability to transcend natural creation. And technology is only a tool, that is allowing you right now to share your opinion with the world. Misuse of it doesn't make it intrinsically bad.

(I'm not sure if this conversation is off-topic or not xD)

Entirely correct, thank you!