Thread: I am really doing something wrong, but what?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

How's your dream recall these days?

I recently realized that there's a (huge) difference between "desire" and "need" -- real results come from "need". You have to create the need.

Note what LucidEveryNight writes:



That is what I call "need," and is probably the single-most important factor in success in dreaming (both recall and lucidity). Everything flows from this, you change your life for a need, a desire can last for a long time but you can put it on your mental back burner and let it simmer there for a long time.

Well in my case is the both, i need to lucid dream and i want to.
but i can't find any motivation to keep going on, even so i can always remember 1-2 dreams every night
and recently, i am not writting in my DJ anymore.
Anyway i keep telling myself that i can do it, and if i've done it before
i can do it again, but it's not easy, it's not more than words to try to increase
this "fake" motivation.
It's like i give up, but i didn't
It's a strange feeling

Well only you can diagnose yourself given the particulars of your practice, that's a very important realization for every LDer to reach. I am not going to argue with your self-description, but from what you write I see "want" rather than "need."

So people, what you would advice me to do ?

please i still need help

My recommendation is forget everything you "know" about lucid dreaming since it's obviously not working for you. (Re)Read LaBerge Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming (do not skip anything thinking that you know it already, you've obviously missed something along the way). Follow precisely his "A Course In Lucid Dreaming", including the willpower exercises. Do his prospective memory exercises, work up to 10 or more PM targets throughout the day. Perform at least 6 LaBerge reflection/intention moments a day, give each one several minutes. Drop ADA, do NOT focus on the minute details around you. Instead cultivate mindfulness of YOU, yourself, where you are, what you're doing, how you're reacting: very high level awareness. Do not stress about maintaining mindfulness, but rather every time that you realize you've "zoned out", gently bring your awareness back, and try to keep it for a while. After a while you'll find this happens more and more, and you're mindful for longer and longer periods without being tired.

After 4 years, at the very least, your nights should be full of dreams. You say you recall 1 or 2 a night -- unless these 1 or 2 are very long, vivid, and continuous with multiple scene transitions, I would say your problem is that you've never cultivated sufficient dream awareness (meaning, basically, dream recall). Start there, focus on recall at night, while continuing to do the LaBerge daytime work.

Set intention at bedtime to 1) remember your dreams, 2) notice each waking, remain still, and recall your dreams. Spend a few minutes quietly recalling dreams, reaching farther and farther back into the dream to the beginning. Record (preferably with a voice recorder) your dreams, at least highlights. Do night-time MILD, then back to bed.

You must spend effort doing the recall. The recall must be very important for you: create an intense desire to remember ALL of your dreams all throughout the night. You must spend time every single time you find yourself awake reaching for dream recall.

Cultivate a positive, happy, joyful, thankful attitude for your recalled dreams. Thank your SC for your dreaming experiences, and ask for more.

And above all, do it consistently. On-again, off-again, half-hearted practice won't yield much in the way of results. Never take a vacation from recall, it's a "muscle" that quickly atrophies, try always to build it up more and more.

Also, at bedtime, mentally revisit the memories of your day. This "day recall" helps to build the recall "muscle."

Dedicate yourself to doing this LaBerge-focused practice seriously and consistently for at least 6 months.

After that, try (re)reading other LD books.

You can also try WILD during this time, but in the beginning (this "new" beginning) I recommend focusing on DILDs via MILD.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

My recommendation is forget everything you "know" about lucid dreaming since it's obviously not working for you. (Re)Read LaBerge Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming (do not skip anything thinking that you know it already, you've obviously missed something along the way). Follow precisely his "A Course In Lucid Dreaming", including the willpower exercises. Do his prospective memory exercises, work up to 10 or more PM targets throughout the day. Perform at least 6 LaBerge reflection/intention moments a day, give each one several minutes. Drop ADA, do NOT focus on the minute details around you. Instead cultivate mindfulness of YOU, yourself, where you are, what you're doing, how you're reacting: very high level awareness. Do not stress about maintaining mindfulness, but rather every time that you realize you've "zoned out", gently bring your awareness back, and try to keep it for a while. After a while you'll find this happens more and more, and you're mindful for longer and longer periods without being tired.

After 4 years, at the very least, your nights should be full of dreams. You say you recall 1 or 2 a night -- unless these 1 or 2 are very long, vivid, and continuous with multiple scene transitions, I would say your problem is that you've never cultivated sufficient dream awareness (meaning, basically, dream recall). Start there, focus on recall at night, while continuing to do the LaBerge daytime work.

Set intention at bedtime to 1) remember your dreams, 2) notice each waking, remain still, and recall your dreams. Spend a few minutes quietly recalling dreams, reaching farther and farther back into the dream to the beginning. Record (preferably with a voice recorder) your dreams, at least highlights. Do night-time MILD, then back to bed.

You must spend effort doing the recall. The recall must be very important for you: create an intense desire to remember ALL of your dreams all throughout the night. You must spend time every single time you find yourself awake reaching for dream recall.

Cultivate a positive, happy, joyful, thankful attitude for your recalled dreams. Thank your SC for your dreaming experiences, and ask for more.

And above all, do it consistently. On-again, off-again, half-hearted practice won't yield much in the way of results. Never take a vacation from recall, it's a "muscle" that quickly atrophies, try always to build it up more and more.

Also, at bedtime, mentally revisit the memories of your day. This "day recall" helps to build the recall "muscle."

Dedicate yourself to doing this LaBerge-focused practice seriously and consistently for at least 6 months.

After that, try (re)reading other LD books.

You can also try WILD during this time, but in the beginning (this "new" beginning) I recommend focusing on DILDs via MILD.

i dont wan't to sound pessimistic, but that isn't too much different of what i've been doing all this time.
and it's not always 1-2 dreams, sometimes i remember 3 or 4 dreams, but not that frequently
also, sometimes i do reality checks in my dreams, now with more frequency.
But all my dreams are always that low-clarity level, i believe if i could increase clarity i could become
lucid actually

Well then, since you know exactly what to do, you'll probably be lucid in no time. And you're welcome.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Well then, since you know exactly what to do, you'll probably be lucid in no time. And you're welcome.

???
i never said what i know what to do, i simply believe that increasing my clarity
will lead me to lucid dreams, it's different.
That's why i created this thread, i'm falling into depression
and my motivation isn't that higher anymore too :/

Originally Posted by Iriba

???
i never said what i know what to do, i simply believe that increasing my clarity
will lead me to lucid dreams, it's different.
That's why i created this thread, i'm falling into depression
and my motivation isn't that higher anymore too :/

Hi,

You've said that your doing reality checks in dreams and they become more often right.
Yet they don't trigger a lucidity?

I can try to help you yet stuff i'il say/said below is based on my assumings
If you could describe in slight detail how you are doing reality checks it could be quite easier, yet anyways off i try
And about quality of your lucid dreams
I suggest you reading up this tutorial: Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
This tutorial allows you to learn how to extend your lucid dreams by stabilization techniques (Without stabilization lucid dreams might last a mere few minutes)
And it helps with increasing clarity of them aswell

Here's one of possible things that happens during your reality checking:
A. You do reality check and then just go back to what you were doing without thinking (Even if reality check shows that you are dreaming...)
B. You do reality check in the dream and:
1. You noticed that reality check proves that your dreaming yet you go back to your dream stuff without thinking
2. You noticed that reality check proves that your dreaming yet you doubt that it's possible and go back to stuff you were doing before
3. Reality Check proved that your in reality and you go back to stuff you were doing before in dream world and so go on.

Answers:
Case A:
- Your not mindful enough, when doing reality checks you must be doing them on it's own. Let's take for example how hard it was to drive a bike when you were young and let's take it now. You might be even able to drive it without holding a steer and control direction using merely legs and even while doing so talk to friend through phone? In this case driving a bike became simplified habit that currently barely requires conscious action to do. Same will happen to reality checks if you will do them mindlessly. I explained it quite poorly it's kinda hard to explain for me. If you will be confused about this i'il try to explain more or maybe some other person could explain instead
Case B.1:
- Kinda related to mindfulness. After you finish doing reality check analyse the result it gave and think whether you are dreaming or not. After reading up all those stuff about lucid dreaming you will surely know what would that mean if you were able to breathe through closed nose or that you have six fingers (It would mean that your dreaming?). If reality check proves that your dreaming and your still doubtful about that then you can try some dream control stuff or other reality checks like amount of fingers?
Also when doing Dream Control stuff be confident that it will work because you are dreaming?
This tutorial will explain better than me how to control dreams: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...-tutorial.html
Case B.2:
- Mentioned about this in above case. I belive i explained stuff there if not then feel free to scold me for that
Case B.3:
- This problem would be caused by lack of belif and confidence that reality check will work i guess? I myself rarely did reality checks yet i can tell you a thing dreams are based on our emotions, expectations and memory. If you will fear that shop manager will catch you stealing time travel machine then he will most likely do it and if you expect to be able to swallow three ice-cream balls at once then you might do it
The memory part is kinda tricky yet probably most effective part of dream control. It was called by BillyBob in his tutorial for dream control a passive control
You just lie to yourself that you stole from merchant ancient sword and you have it in your closet while fully beliving that you actually have it and that it's all truth and then you go to closed open it and bam it might be just there
If you want reality checks to be effective then have confidence that they will work and prove that your dreaming when doing them. Fear or be happy that it might prove that your dreaming And here goes the memory part once more: Trick yourself into thinking fully that reality check will work for sure before doing it and then do it. I belive that's it about reality checks successfulness even if after that they will fail or just be not good enough i'd suggest switching rc to different one maybe?

Anyways if you were doing reality checks wrong then your most likely by now after reading all that thinking that you will have to practice again few weeks/months correctly reality checks before they will start to work like you want them to work in dreams. But worry not my friend. Our brain is not that harsh. In fact it is quite kind and flexible to our needs. Anyways enough that metaphors n' random stuff let's get to the work
All you need to do is to re-write/alter the part of memory in brain that has written in data of how to do reality checks. The rest aka habit of doing reality checks every once in a while or whenever you see something weird is in other place yet it redirects to segment of memory which is responsible for reality checks how to n' stuff.
It would be imo best to explain through programming example lol:

PHP Code:

*Somewhere in your memory code*
RealityChecks()
{
    PutHandOnNose() // You put your hand on the nose
    PlugNose() // You plug your nose
    TryToBreathe() // You try to breathe
    if(YouCanBreathe) // You see/check yourself whether you can breathe and if you can breathe then
    {
        IknowImDreaming = true // Then you know that your dreaming or more likely start to suspect that your dreaming
    }
    else // If you can't breathe through plugged nose
    {
        IknowImDreaming = false // You doubt that your dreaming and probably do few other reality checks or just go back to stuff you were doing before?
    }
    
}

// That was the part of your memory that's responsible for knowing how to reality check let's say
// But it's not responsible for knowing when to do reality check
*Somewhere in your memory code*

DailyLife() // A Daily Life aka walking around, playing games or taking a shower 
{
    if(SeeSomethingWeird) // If you see something weird then
    {
        RealityChecks() // Then you will most likely decide to do a reality check
    }
    if(30MinutesPassedSinceLastRealityCheck) // Let's say you do reality check every thirty minutes so when the time passes you will remind yourself to
    {
        RealityChecks() // Do a reality check
    }
}

/* So if you will change how you do reality checks then you won't probably need to wait
 few weeks or months for it to start happen everytime you decide to do reality check in dream. 
Afterall if stuff would work like this then people would need to wait weeks or months before doing their task in lucid dream.
BUT THATS NOT HOW BRAIN WORKS NOR THE MEMORY
We can set tasks few minutes before we fall asleep and enter lucid dream
But the trigger plays key role here
Something must make you do certain action
Aka seeing something weird = reality check
Seeing Something weird is pointer to reality check and does not contains whole reality check stuff. So it's fine i guess :P?
*/ 


I guess i just went too far with explanations
Anyways now the part of re-writing reality check
The easiest way imo would be doing it through daydreaming

Here's example way of doing this with daydreaming:
Go to bed or some dark place where your comfy and relaxed
Start to daydream
Visualize yourself on the streets
You suddenly see flying ape with ak-47
And then your like wait. that's not possible. am i dreaming?
Then you perform the reality check
And here insert new schema of reality check and do it the new way you decided to do previously
Perform this stuff a few times till you feel like you've replaced old reality check with new one

You can rewrite the way you do reality checks by just living your waking life and when time comes to do reality check then do it the new way
It would be slower than daydreaming i belive?

Or you can just memorize how to do new way reality checks and set strong intention to do them like this in future.

I think i've explained most of stuff i wanted to
If you have any questions, doubts about lucid dreaming or my load of text then feel free to ask
And to be honest most of this stuff was based on my experience and small slice of theorizing
So i can't say that i'm 100% certain that everything was right
- Goodluck

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

Hi,

You've said that your doing reality checks in dreams and they become more often right.
Yet they don't trigger a lucidity?

I can try to help you yet stuff i'il say/said below is based on my assumings
If you could describe in slight detail how you are doing reality checks it could be quite easier, yet anyways off i try
And about quality of your lucid dreams
I suggest you reading up this tutorial: Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
This tutorial allows you to learn how to extend your lucid dreams by stabilization techniques (Without stabilization lucid dreams might last a mere few minutes)
And it helps with increasing clarity of them aswell

Here's one of possible things that happens during your reality checking:
A. You do reality check and then just go back to what you were doing without thinking (Even if reality check shows that you are dreaming...)
B. You do reality check in the dream and:
1. You noticed that reality check proves that your dreaming yet you go back to your dream stuff without thinking
2. You noticed that reality check proves that your dreaming yet you doubt that it's possible and go back to stuff you were doing before
3. Reality Check proved that your in reality and you go back to stuff you were doing before in dream world and so go on.

Answers:
Case A:
- Your not mindful enough, when doing reality checks you must be doing them on it's own. Let's take for example how hard it was to drive a bike when you were young and let's take it now. You might be even able to drive it without holding a steer and control direction using merely legs and even while doing so talk to friend through phone? In this case driving a bike became simplified habit that currently barely requires conscious action to do. Same will happen to reality checks if you will do them mindlessly. I explained it quite poorly it's kinda hard to explain for me. If you will be confused about this i'il try to explain more or maybe some other person could explain instead
Case B.1:
- Kinda related to mindfulness. After you finish doing reality check analyse the result it gave and think whether you are dreaming or not. After reading up all those stuff about lucid dreaming you will surely know what would that mean if you were able to breathe through closed nose or that you have six fingers (It would mean that your dreaming?). If reality check proves that your dreaming and your still doubtful about that then you can try some dream control stuff or other reality checks like amount of fingers?
Also when doing Dream Control stuff be confident that it will work because you are dreaming?
This tutorial will explain better than me how to control dreams: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...-tutorial.html
Case B.2:
- Mentioned about this in above case. I belive i explained stuff there if not then feel free to scold me for that
Case B.3:
- This problem would be caused by lack of belif and confidence that reality check will work i guess? I myself rarely did reality checks yet i can tell you a thing dreams are based on our emotions, expectations and memory. If you will fear that shop manager will catch you stealing time travel machine then he will most likely do it and if you expect to be able to swallow three ice-cream balls at once then you might do it
The memory part is kinda tricky yet probably most effective part of dream control. It was called by BillyBob in his tutorial for dream control a passive control
You just lie to yourself that you stole from merchant ancient sword and you have it in your closet while fully beliving that you actually have it and that it's all truth and then you go to closed open it and bam it might be just there
If you want reality checks to be effective then have confidence that they will work and prove that your dreaming when doing them. Fear or be happy that it might prove that your dreaming And here goes the memory part once more: Trick yourself into thinking fully that reality check will work for sure before doing it and then do it. I belive that's it about reality checks successfulness even if after that they will fail or just be not good enough i'd suggest switching rc to different one maybe?

Anyways if you were doing reality checks wrong then your most likely by now after reading all that thinking that you will have to practice again few weeks/months correctly reality checks before they will start to work like you want them to work in dreams. But worry not my friend. Our brain is not that harsh. In fact it is quite kind and flexible to our needs. Anyways enough that metaphors n' random stuff let's get to the work
All you need to do is to re-write/alter the part of memory in brain that has written in data of how to do reality checks. The rest aka habit of doing reality checks every once in a while or whenever you see something weird is in other place yet it redirects to segment of memory which is responsible for reality checks how to n' stuff.
It would be imo best to explain through programming example lol:

PHP Code:

*Somewhere in your memory code*
RealityChecks()
{
    PutHandOnNose() // You put your hand on the nose
    PlugNose() // You plug your nose
    TryToBreathe() // You try to breathe
    if(YouCanBreathe) // You see/check yourself whether you can breathe and if you can breathe then
    {
        IknowImDreaming = true // Then you know that your dreaming or more likely start to suspect that your dreaming
    }
    else // If you can't breathe through plugged nose
    {
        IknowImDreaming = false // You doubt that your dreaming and probably do few other reality checks or just go back to stuff you were doing before?
    }
    
}

// That was the part of your memory that's responsible for knowing how to reality check let's say
// But it's not responsible for knowing when to do reality check
*Somewhere in your memory code*

DailyLife() // A Daily Life aka walking around, playing games or taking a shower 
{
    if(SeeSomethingWeird) // If you see something weird then
    {
        RealityChecks() // Then you will most likely decide to do a reality check
    }
    if(30MinutesPassedSinceLastRealityCheck) // Let's say you do reality check every thirty minutes so when the time passes you will remind yourself to
    {
        RealityChecks() // Do a reality check
    }
}

/* So if you will change how you do reality checks then you won't probably need to wait
 few weeks or months for it to start happen everytime you decide to do reality check in dream. 
Afterall if stuff would work like this then people would need to wait weeks or months before doing their task in lucid dream.
BUT THATS NOT HOW BRAIN WORKS NOR THE MEMORY
We can set tasks few minutes before we fall asleep and enter lucid dream
But the trigger plays key role here
Something must make you do certain action
Aka seeing something weird = reality check
Seeing Something weird is pointer to reality check and does not contains whole reality check stuff. So it's fine i guess :P?
*/ 


I guess i just went too far with explanations
Anyways now the part of re-writing reality check
The easiest way imo would be doing it through daydreaming

Here's example way of doing this with daydreaming:
Go to bed or some dark place where your comfy and relaxed
Start to daydream
Visualize yourself on the streets
You suddenly see flying ape with ak-47
And then your like wait. that's not possible. am i dreaming?
Then you perform the reality check
And here insert new schema of reality check and do it the new way you decided to do previously
Perform this stuff a few times till you feel like you've replaced old reality check with new one

You can rewrite the way you do reality checks by just living your waking life and when time comes to do reality check then do it the new way
It would be slower than daydreaming i belive?

Or you can just memorize how to do new way reality checks and set strong intention to do them like this in future.

I think i've explained most of stuff i wanted to
If you have any questions, doubts about lucid dreaming or my load of text then feel free to ask
And to be honest most of this stuff was based on my experience and small slice of theorizing
So i can't say that i'm 100% certain that everything was right
- Goodluck

i really appreciate your time to explain all this to me
but, every reality check i do, i do it with emotion, and the feeling
i might be dreaming at that moment. and i don't use 1 or 2 reality checks,
i use the most effective right now, such as looking at hands, plugging nose and breath
thumb through palm, and taking a look at hours.
but sometimes i do reality checks in my dreams and most of them are the hands
reality check or the nose one, because when i do these both, i believe they will work.
I'm not saying the thumb through palm or the hours won't work, but i feel
a less confidence in those two, it's like i trust hand reality check and the nose one
the most, that's why i use them with more frequency on my dreams
and as you said
the reality checking and do something else, that quite happens in my dreams
sometimes when i see like 6 fingers on my hands i simply don't say
"hey im dreaming!" i ignore that fact and continue what i was doing before.
That's also a thing i don't understand.
But i have these dreams like only 1-2 per month, i rarely have them, and when i have
this schema happens, and i feel it will be always like this. i'm stuck in this phase :/
I dont understand because, every day i do at least 5 reality checks sections, and when i mean
mean sections, into those sections, there are 4 reality checks. that those are
the hand, the nose, the thumb and the clock. And i still can't get any LD.

i wonder if i am mentally ill?

Originally Posted by Iriba

???
i never said what i know what to do, i simply believe that increasing my clarity
will lead me to lucid dreams, it's different.
That's why i created this thread, i'm falling into depression
and my motivation isn't that higher anymore too :/

There is a pattern to your answers: it seems clear you do not spend the time to really carefully read and consider the advice you're getting. "I"m already doing all of that!" you say. If you were really doing everything that everybody has advised you, after 3 years you'd be lucid with excellent frequency.

My advice to you was: forget everything you THINK you know about lucid dreaming, and start over. Because what you THINK you know DOESN'T WORK.

5 periods of RCs during the day is very few. Don't do a series of 4 or 5, stick with ONE. If you love hands and really think it works, then do hands. I prefer nose pinch and do it exclusively, it works great.

To really get lucidity going you need to be thinking about dreaming and the very real possibility that you are dreaming RIGHT NOW, very frequently during the day. Like no less than every 10 minutes, even more can be better, if you can do it without getting exhausted.

I was quite serious about my original advice. Try to cultivate the mindset that you don't know about lucid dreaming, read and follow LaBerge "A Course In Lucid Dreaming" along with Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, and you will be lucid within a month. Do NOT think "Oh I already know this" while reading. Assume that you don't know it, and read with a fine tooth comb looking for nuggets of golden knowledge.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

There is a pattern to your answers: it seems clear you do not spend the time to really carefully read and consider the advice you're getting. "I"m already doing all of that!" you say. If you were really doing everything that everybody has advised you, after 3 years you'd be lucid with excellent frequency.

My advice to you was: forget everything you THINK you know about lucid dreaming, and start over. Because what you THINK you know DOESN'T WORK.

5 periods of RCs during the day is very few. Don't do a series of 4 or 5, stick with ONE. If you love hands and really think it works, then do hands. I prefer nose pinch and do it exclusively, it works great.

To really get lucidity going you need to be thinking about dreaming and the very real possibility that you are dreaming RIGHT NOW, very frequently during the day. Like no less than every 10 minutes, even more can be better, if you can do it without getting exhausted.

I was quite serious about my original advice. Try to cultivate the mindset that you don't know about lucid dreaming, read and follow LaBerge "A Course In Lucid Dreaming" along with Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, and you will be lucid within a month. Do NOT think "Oh I already know this" while reading. Assume that you don't know it, and read with a fine tooth comb looking for nuggets of golden knowledge.

How is at least 20 reality checks per day very few?
lol, and why forget what i know about lucid dream?
what would be the point of that?
and my reality checks are always done with the real intetion
that i might be dreaming.

I really don't want to start everything over and over again.
i mean, this 3 years was nothing but a joke?
i feel my dreams had evolved in their clarity and stuff
and for this 3 years i learned how to take advantage of them
but if you're telling me to start all over again, my motivation won't be the same.
per more hard i try to start over i will never forget this harsh 3 years.

Originally Posted by Wolfdog

Would you mind explaining us what your practice consists of to get you lucid? Specifically, how do you practice for lucid dreaming? What techniques have you practiced, for how long, how consistent, explain the how you do them? The best way we can help you is if you share with us the information of what you've been doing all these past years in relation to lucidity in dreams. The more you can detail your situation, the easier it is to get a workable solution to your problem.

I mean, I look at the people here who have offered countless of suggestions and possible solutions that you can apply to overcome your situation, yet you keep saying that you've done all which has been suggested. From what I've seen from personal experience, a method should be practiced at least 3 - 6 months to see if it yields results, if not, then the practice should be changed. For example, I've been practicing one method of lucidity for the past two months, and I'm willing to practice it for a couple of months more before I can judge whether it worked or not for me. That's one technique; if I were to follow each and every suggestion that's been said in this thread, then it'll easily take me more than 3 years to effectively test each and every one of them and evaluate the results.

So, ask yourself, have you been doing each and everything that's been suggested here for a reasonable amount of time so as to see whether it worked or not? If so, have you been doing each and every practice consistently every day, with diligence and determination? If your response to any of these two questions is a NO, then you should review again what's been advised.

i practiced ADA + WBTB + MILD
for 3 years.

Originally Posted by Iriba

How is at least 20 reality checks per day very few?
lol, and why forget what i know about lucid dream?
what would be the point of that?
and my reality checks are always done with the real intetion
that i might be dreaming.

I really don't want to start everything over and over again.
i mean, this 3 years was nothing but a joke?
i feel my dreams had evolved in their clarity and stuff
and for this 3 years i learned how to take advantage of them
but if you're telling me to start all over again, my motivation won't be the same.
per more hard i try to start over i will never forget this harsh 3 years.

There you go again. There's nothing wrong with your practice in your mind, and all advice you get you reject for one reason or another, including lolling at people who spend their precious time to try to help you. You argue instead of working hard to understand. And you wonder why you have few responses....

I don't know, was it a joke? Did you enjoy anything about it?

If you'd done a thorough reading of the material on the forum, you'd know that self-awareness and memory are key to lucid dreaming, not technique or what you "know" about lucid dreaming. When I say "forget everything you know", I mean to erase your assumptions and look hard for what you have missed, for you have missed something! What exactly thatt is, I don't know, only you can find that. starting a practice "anew" wouldn't reset your self-awareness and memory gains, of course.

And yes, 5 moments of RC during the day, doing 4 back to back like it sounds like you do, IS very few! When I have a dry spell, I end up spending the entire day sometimes as one long RC it seems, and some intense days like this result in lucidity pretty soon.

Final bit of advice: the most important quality in an LDer is the ability to experiment, self-evaluate and adjust: keep what works, throw out what doesn't. The other is dedcation. Dedication, though, without the ability to course-correct doesnt serve much of a purpose. It seems you have a ways to go in developing self-evaluation.

Would you mind explaining us what your practice consists of to get you lucid? Specifically, how do you practice for lucid dreaming? What techniques have you practiced, for how long, how consistent, explain the how you do them? The best way we can help you is if you share with us the information of what you've been doing all these past years in relation to lucidity in dreams. The more you can detail your situation, the easier it is to get a workable solution to your problem.

I mean, I look at the people here who have offered countless of suggestions and possible solutions that you can apply to overcome your situation, yet you keep saying that you've done all which has been suggested. From what I've seen from personal experience, a method should be practiced at least 3 - 6 months to see if it yields results, if not, then the practice should be changed. For example, I've been practicing one method of lucidity for the past two months, and I'm willing to practice it for a couple of months more before I can judge whether it worked or not for me. That's one technique; if I were to follow each and every suggestion that's been said in this thread, then it'll easily take me more than 3 years to effectively test each and every one of them and evaluate the results.

So, ask yourself, have you been doing each and everything that's been suggested here for a reasonable amount of time so as to see whether it worked or not? If so, have you been doing each and every practice consistently every day, with diligence and determination? If your response to any of these two questions is a NO, then you should review again what's been advised.

Originally Posted by Iriba

i practiced ADA + WBTB + MILD
for 3 years.

When performing ADA have you questioned reality?
Let's make an example:

In some old village at the mountains lives heir of ancient guru clan
He has been learnt by his parents to perform the technique called by them 'Clear Mind' which is actually same stuff as 'All Day Awareness'
He's been doing this since twenty years and performing it is a second nature to him. He can do it effortlessly all day yet he's not becoming frequent lucid dreamer. Why?
He didn't question reality at all during his practices?
I guess it could be that case?

Performing ADA without questioning reality might work for some people since it will increase overall awareness and aswell your dream recall n' vividness which might be a good factors for becoming lucid. But it's not the case with all people i belive?

That's my theory...

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

When performing ADA have you questioned reality?
Let's make an example:

In some old village at the mountains lives heir of ancient guru clan
He has been learnt by his parents to perform the technique called by them 'Clear Mind' which is actually same stuff as 'All Day Awareness'
He's been doing this since twenty years and performing it is a second nature to him. He can do it effortlessly all day yet he's not becoming frequent lucid dreamer. Why?
He didn't question reality at all during his practices?
I guess it could be that case?

Performing ADA without questioning reality might work for some people since it will increase overall awareness and aswell your dream recall n' vividness which might be a good factors for becoming lucid. But it's not the case with all people i belive?

That's my theory...

What if i am dreaming right now?
*rubs hands around 30 seconds*
Where am i?
*Answer in my mind*
What am i doing here?
*Answer in my mind*
What was i doing 15 minutes ago?
*Answer in my mind*
Why am i here?
*Answer in my mind*
how did i get here?
*Answer in my mind*
Does the stuff around me look normal?
*I look around my surroundings, and wonder if this is really a dream*
*After some minutes*
*Reality checks*


That's how i do ADA

Originally Posted by Iriba

What if i am dreaming right now?
*rubs hands around 30 seconds*
Where am i?
*Answer in my mind*
What am i doing here?
*Answer in my mind*
What was i doing 15 minutes ago?
*Answer in my mind*
Why am i here?
*Answer in my mind*
how did i get here?
*Answer in my mind*
Does the stuff around me look normal?
*I look around my surroundings, and wonder if this is really a dream*
*After some minutes*
*Reality checks*


That's how i do ADA

Alright, I can see the outline of your practice is very good actually. Still, if you don't mind, I would like to offer some points that could make your practice a lot more efficient and effective. First things first, the questions you ask are great as they require you to think for the answer. When searching for ways to reality check, it's best if we choose questions that don't allow for yes or no answers. These questions: "What am I doing here?, What was I doing 15 minutes ago?, How did I get here?" are spot on. The problem I see with the overall design of your practice is that it appears to take a long time to do it. Think about it, you don't really need to think for long hours in order to effectively assess reality and get you lucid. Just one of these are enough to trigger lucidity. So, what you could do is throw out all the unnecessary stuff to make your practice much more concise and practical.

Say, choose one out of any of these three questions:

• What am I doing here?
• What was I doing 15 minutes ago?
• How did I get here?

After answering your question, you could add in a reality check (whichever you prefer) to confirm whether you're dreaming or not. With this, you can cut off minutes of unnecessary hassle in your practice. With this outline, you could probably finish the thing within 30 seconds or less.

Now, I have to agree with FryingMan here in that 20 reality checks a day isn't a lot. Still, increasing the number of times you do the checks just for the sake of doing more isn't recommended either. Remember, the purpose with this is to get you more aware, to cultivate a state of mind in awareness. So, you should use the technique whenever you find yourself distracted, whenever awareness is lost. This practice will be your center point, your support for bringing back awareness to you whenever it is lost. Yes, at the beginning you may feel as if the practice is too much for you to handle. If you persist, in time you will see yourself remaining more aware of what's happening around you. Remember, the objective is to remain aware without the need of the technique. The technique is only there for use if you ever lose awareness.

This is really a variation of your own practice, refined, that could provide a more effective way to get you lucid. Should you choose to follow it, I want you to remember this valuable piece of advise:

1. Patience is decisive for acquiring success with this method, or any other method you decide to follow.
2. Action is the bedrock for reaching success, not motivation. Motivation comes in second, action is first.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Not every 10 seconds, perhaps 10 minutes. And not deep long questioning, but fairly quick awareness boosts (of course holding the awareness is good if you can). Successful LDers go through very frequent RCs, sometimes hundreds if not more of them in a day on some days. The deep long questioning is probably OK at 5-6 per day on a maintenance schedule, but you need to make a break through so you need to turn up the intensity I think for a while.

From what you're saying, you're not doing traditional LaBerge, which includes PM exercises. I continue to recommend going full on LaBerge (and not doing ADA) to get your first LD.

What you're doing now clearly doesn't work for you, so try something different for a while.

For a change, I recommend reading The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and following at least the 4 preparatory practices, including daily meditation. Also, read DV threads on mindfulness, and perhaps some books. Ultimately to be continually mindful is to be continually self-aware, lucid in life to be lucid in dreams. Being lucid in life is its own reward, as well.

So, can you give me an example how i should do ADA?
from what i understand a quick question and a quick look around is more effective
and also 1 reality check

Originally Posted by Wolfdog

Alright, I can see the outline of your practice is very good actually. Still, if you don't mind, I would like to offer some points that could make your practice a lot more efficient and effective. First things first, the questions you ask are great as they require you to think for the answer. When searching for ways to reality check, it's best if we choose questions that don't allow for yes or no answers. These questions: "What am I doing here?, What was I doing 15 minutes ago?, How did I get here?" are spot on. The problem I see with the overall design of your practice is that it appears to take a long time to do it. Think about it, you don't really need to think for long hours in order to effectively assess reality and get you lucid. Just one of these are enough to trigger lucidity. So, what you could do is throw out all the unnecessary stuff to make your practice much more concise and practical.

Say, choose one out of any of these three questions:

• What am I doing here?
• What was I doing 15 minutes ago?
• How did I get here?

After answering your question, you could add in a reality check (whichever you prefer) to confirm whether you're dreaming or not. With this, you can cut off minutes of unnecessary hassle in your practice. With this outline, you could probably finish the thing within 30 seconds or less.

Now, I have to agree with FryingMan here in that 20 reality checks a day isn't a lot. Still, increasing the number of times you do the checks just for the sake of doing more isn't recommended either. Remember, the purpose with this is to get you more aware, to cultivate a state of mind in awareness. So, you should use the technique whenever you find yourself distracted, whenever awareness is lost. This practice will be your center point, your support for bringing back awareness to you whenever it is lost. Yes, at the beginning you may feel as if the practice is too much for you to handle. If you persist, in time you will see yourself remaining more aware of what's happening around you. Remember, the objective is to remain aware without the need of the technique. The technique is only there for use if you ever lose awareness.

This is really a variation of your own practice, refined, that could provide a more effective way to get you lucid. Should you choose to follow it, I want you to remember this valuable piece of advise:

1. Patience is decisive for acquiring success with this method, or any other method you decide to follow.
2. Action is the bedrock for reaching success, not motivation. Motivation comes in second, action is first.

wouldn't i have less chances if i do it on 30 seconds?
yeah maybe i could do more of that exercices but 30 seconds
isn't that a little time to carry to a dream?

Not every 10 seconds, perhaps 10 minutes. And not deep long questioning, but fairly quick awareness boosts (of course holding the awareness is good if you can). Successful LDers go through very frequent RCs, sometimes hundreds if not more of them in a day on some days. The deep long questioning is probably OK at 5-6 per day on a maintenance schedule, but you need to make a break through so you need to turn up the intensity I think for a while.

From what you're saying, you're not doing traditional LaBerge, which includes PM exercises. I continue to recommend going full on LaBerge (and not doing ADA) to get your first LD.

What you're doing now clearly doesn't work for you, so try something different for a while.

For a change, I recommend reading The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and following at least the 4 preparatory practices, including daily meditation. Also, read DV threads on mindfulness, and perhaps some books. Ultimately to be continually mindful is to be continually self-aware, lucid in life to be lucid in dreams. Being lucid in life is its own reward, as well.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Not every 10 seconds, perhaps 10 minutes. And not deep long questioning, but fairly quick awareness boosts (of course holding the awareness is good if you can). Successful LDers go through very frequent RCs, sometimes hundreds if not more of them in a day on some days. The deep long questioning is probably OK at 5-6 per day on a maintenance schedule, but you need to make a break through so you need to turn up the intensity I think for a while.

From what you're saying, you're not doing traditional LaBerge, which includes PM exercises. I continue to recommend going full on LaBerge (and not doing ADA) to get your first LD.

What you're doing now clearly doesn't work for you, so try something different for a while.

For a change, I recommend reading The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and following at least the 4 preparatory practices, including daily meditation. Also, read DV threads on mindfulness, and perhaps some books. Ultimately to be continually mindful is to be continually self-aware, lucid in life to be lucid in dreams. Being lucid in life is its own reward, as well.

Here, again, in bold, are the two main recommendations I have for you. Actually, 3.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Here, again, in bold, are the two main recommendations I have for you. Actually, 3.

I did read the mindfulness thread by Ctharlhie
and he says by focusing on one of these things

1. Gravity
2. The feeling of clothing
3. Temperature
4. Feet on the floor
5. Ambient noise
6. Light sources
7. Visual snow/floaters
8. Tinnitus
9. Air Pressure (wind, breezes, draughts)
10. A sense of the breath

I can transform them into a big RC and maybe notice them in the dream, if i feel it
different i would be lucid.
But there is something i don't understand. why wouldn't
my ADA work for this?

Originally Posted by Iriba

I did read the mindfulness thread by Ctharlhie
and he says by focusing on one of these things

1. Gravity
2. The feeling of clothing
3. Temperature
4. Feet on the floor
5. Ambient noise
6. Light sources
7. Visual snow/floaters
8. Tinnitus
9. Air Pressure (wind, breezes, draughts)
10. A sense of the breath

I can transform them into a big RC and maybe notice them in the dream, if i feel it
different i would be lucid.
But there is something i don't understand. why wouldn't
my ADA work for this?

Notice I said THREAD, not TOP POST. There is a great discussion of ideas there, read all of it and think about it before responding back. Take a look at all of the references in all of the posts in that thread (note: some of them are *books*), and you will start to understand. Learn to read deeply, to question, research, etc.

That's why I recommended that you focus on one sense at a time. Devoting yourself to the complete and utter awareness of everything that's around you, all senses, is mad! Look at meditation, look at mindfulness practice. The teaching is first on awareness of breath. There are so many things that one could be aware of in one's breath. After it, we expand our awareness, but gradually. There's no point in trying to rush things out in the beginning because the challenge will become insurmountable. There's no hurry, if you focus on one sense at a time it'll actually be more beneficial to you than attempting everything at once. You'll progress faster, you'll have an easier time with it, and the results will be consistent. There's a time for everything; knowing when to increase the challenge, and knowing when to decrease it is influential in one's ability to progress.

^^ There is a long thread on DV between Sageous and KingYoshi discussing about the sort of awareness that ADA builds. I fall on the Sageous side: ADA is the (reflex/instinct) sort awareness (e.g., of a mouse), not of a sentient being (self-awareness, e.g., lucidity). That it not to say you can not find self-awareness from ADA, but it at the very least seems a circuitous route and a lot of effort not aimed in the right direction.

I will certainly take note of certain "accents" from the environment in a mindful manner: the brightness/warmth of sunlight, the sound of my feet on a gravel path, but always with the notion that "this is ME here, experiencing this", with the focus on the ME, not the sensations.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

^^ There is a long thread on DV between Sageous and KingYoshi discussing about the sort of awareness that ADA builds. I fall on the Sageous side: ADA is the (reflex/instinct) sort awareness (e.g., of a mouse), not of a sentient being (self-awareness, e.g., lucidity). That it not to say you can not find self-awareness from ADA, but it at the very least seems a circuitous route and a lot of effort not aimed in the right direction.

I will certainly take note of certain "accents" from the environment in a mindful manner: the brightness/warmth of sunlight, the sound of my feet on a gravel path, but always with the notion that "this is ME here, experiencing this", with the focus on the ME, not the sensations.

Cheers.

The way I see it (based on what I've read and practiced), with mindfulness we train awareness, an observation of our experience as it happens, to become aware of the present moment. This includes our actions, our bodies, thoughts, feelings, what we can sense, anything and everything that's happening at the moment, now. Everything, anything, and nothing are included within our scope of awareness. Yet, even though we're to become aware, to become present, we don't direct our observational focus to anything in particular, and when observing, we don't get involved with what we're aware of, for the act of involvement separates us from the present moment, from awareness. Mindfulness is the passive observation of any external and internal stimuli experienced.

Well, this is the idea I have about mindfulness. I'll take a look at that whole thread about mindfulness and ADA. I'm sure there's some valuable pieces of information I can extract and learn about from there.

so mindfulness is just getting back to awareness when you lose
your focus right? but how is that different from ADA?
sometimes i lose my focus and minutes later i can "clean" my mind
out of thoughts, and i can keep going with my awareness.

@wolfdog which sense should i start first? what would get me lucid easier?
I wanted to try gravity but i'm not sure how i should do it.