BE a Lucid Dreamer

[EamonWill]

I think that I have discovered not only what keeps people from having Lucid Dreams but also how to break the cycle and become a successful LDer. I've have heard other ideas that danced around this idea both on YouTube and on this site. However, I have never heard anyone articulate it quite the way I realized it tonight. This idea is so deceptively simple you may be inclined to blow it off, but I encourage you to really mull it over and see how you could start to use this for yourself. A little intro first... I've been hearing a lot that techniques don't work, that we need to learn mindfulness instead. But why don't they work? Many of these techniques promise to teach us mindfulness, so how can they be bad? Then it hit me; even just having the idea that we need a technique is setting ourselves up for failure! We only need a technique if LD is hard. If LD is hard then it is because we are struggling against something to become lucid. The only force that we could be struggling against is our own mind. We are setting up a battle in our own mind. We are fighting ourselves and thus can never win. If we allow ourselves to believe that LD is unnatural or difficult then we are feeding that information directly into our subconscious. We are telling our mind that the conscious and subconscious must battle each other for control. This way we are almost guaranteed to never become lucid because our conscious mind is turned off during sleep and now our subconscious mind is actively seeking to keep it that way. If we do succeed in becoming lucid we find other difficulties. We lack stability and dream control, our DC are hostile, we end up waking up, or we simply lose lucidity again. What if we taught our whole brain, the conscious and subconscious, to work together to actively achieve lucidity?! So far I only have a very basic theory on how to achieve this. I believe it can be done through auto-suggestion/meditation/self-hypnosis. Whatever you want to call it. For the next month I will be doing a collective of one hours mantra meditation per day. I say collective because I may not be able to do it all at once. So I may do 30 min in the morning and 30 min at night, or maybe six 10 min intervals throughout the day. Just so long as it's at least one hour. The key idea I will be focusing on is that "Lucid Dreaming is easy because my mind wants to be lucid." I will tell myself things like: My dreams want me to be lucid. My dream characters want me to be lucid. I always know when I'm dreaming. My dreams help me to become lucid. I would really love if other people joined in and gave their feedback. I want to know things like: How long you meditated. How you meditated. What ideas you focused on. When you meditated. What your LD rate was before and after. If you noticed and increase in LD. How quickly you noticed the increase. If you were using any other new methods at the same time (preferably not). If you noticed a change in the length of your LD. If you noticed a change in how much control you had in your LD. If there was a change in your dream vividness and/or recall. Let me know your opinions, feedback, further ideas below!!!

[mimihigurashi]

You are onto something, but convincing your mind that you can lucid dream easily is not an easy task, at least not for most people. This is similar to expectations, the way some people just convince themselves that they will have a lucid dream, expect it to happen, and it often happens. But I think most people have a very difficult time convincing themselves, many can't do it at all. It kind of depends on one's personality as well. Some people are like "I just can't tell myself I'm a lucid dreamer and honestly believe it". Doesn't it take honest belief? I don't think you can just pretend and lie to your subconscious.

[Sageous]

Interesting idea, Eamonwill, and I agree that it does speak to the core of LD'ing, which lies not in techniques, pills,machines, or other shortcuts, but in a dreamer's mindset. However, absolute conscious belief or confidence that you can LD is only the beginning; a solid beginning, for sure, but still just the beginning: As Mimi already noted, it is a difficult trick indeed to develop this belief to the point where all of you believes it, including your unconscious mind, and the various brain functions that oversee dreaming and the disconnection from memory that accompanies sleep. Your unconscious and brain (not sure why I'm separating the two; feeling mystical today, I guess) are hard-wired to not expect LD'ing to exist, much less occur -- remember that the natural order of things is NLD's. I think that you not only must be confident, but also develop a unique mindset that does not come into being on its own. That mindset is, of course, one of sincere self-awareness, and an openness to the potentials of LD'ing (the latter of which, I suppose, is the same as belief, isn't it?). I had a thought regarding your meditation plan: Isn't that just another technique? Will meditating really change your mind, literally, or might it just add another layer of technique-laden foliage to an already crowded hedge of mental activity? Though auto-suggestion/meditation/self-hypnosis are all good things to practice, they are also all techniques, and might only serve to trick or cloud your mind, or, worse, trigger your unconscious into giving you false lucids about LD'ing. Or not: if your mind is already in the right place (i.e., your unconscious has begun to fall into agreement with you about LD'ing), these things will be excellent tools. But getting your mind in the right place goes beyond just making suggestions to it; you must develop a strong sense of Self, which I think, in the end, transcends just telling your unconscious that you can dream. On that note, I went to answer your questions, and realized that I don't really meditate, classically anyway, and never did, so I can't help you much there. I hope you don't mind my bit of contrariness, and that you don't take it the wrong way. This is an excellent idea, and your plan is well worth pursuing. But, as you take on this new process, be sure you don't leave the fundamentals in your wake, or else the best result you will get is some placebo effect, or those pesky false lucids. So this is a great idea, and it is nice to see this sort of thing planted in the deep forest of techniques that is a LD'ing forum. I hope it can grow anyway... only conversation will tell! Good luck, and be sure to keep us updated!

[JadeGreen]

But I think most people have a very difficult time convincing themselves, many can't do it at all. It kind of depends on one's personality as well. Some people are like "I just can't tell myself I'm a lucid dreamer and honestly believe it". Doesn't it take honest belief? I don't think you can just pretend and lie to your subconscious. And in that lies the problem for so many people. In my personal experience, I was able to/am still working on this. When I started lucid dreaming, my goal was to do it nightly; a goal that I am actually quite close to. And while there have been DILDs and even a WILD or two thrown in there, a majority of my progress was due to MILD and Meditation. I still seem to be on the up and up though, so I see no reason to stop or change my approach. How long you meditated. Varies by day to day. Sometimes half an hour or more. Sometimes not at all. How you meditated. Also varied by day to day. Some days it was more formal, and sometimes it was simple mindfulness while doing other things. What ideas you focused on. Attaining lucidity, Having long, clear dreams, not waking up, and accomplishing whatever goals were pertinent at the moment. When you meditated. Generally in the afternoon/evening. What your LD rate was before and after. A steady increase in the past year from about one every two weeks to about three a week. If you were using any other new methods at the same time (preferably not). A couple of Reality Checks, a steady bedtime and diet, and exercise. If you noticed a change in the length of your LD. Not really. This hasn't been much of a focus for me. I'm more focused on quantity, and am planning to move into a focus on quality once I achieve nightly lucidity. If you noticed a change in how much control you had in your LD. My dream control has gotten better. But its more due to practice than autosuggestion or meditation. If there was a change in your dream vividness and/or recall. If there is, it is slight.

[Nighthawk09]

I like the idea, but i agree it will take alot of work especially with bending the steel bars in my head lol

[LDman]

Okay, you seem to have a good vision on lucid dreaming in terms of it not being nearly impossible as many other claim... The way I solved it was simple, it's a problem, an obstacle and before you can start solving that problem you first need to know what the problem is. I simplified the problem to understand it better, for me the problem sounds like: Conscious brain needs to be on while any external imput needs to be cut off. (AKA: sleeping) I use DEILD/WILD for induction... Then I thought of some parameters that need to be correct: 1. Needs to be in or at the start of an REM-cycle ----> After several weeks I found it roughly after 5.5 hours of sleep. 2. Not too drowsy ----> I often fell back asleep so I now usually go to the bathroom and drink some water. 3. RECALL! ----> I really should start DJing soon. 4. Dedication ----> I will do it tonight!

[LDleader]

Yup I deffinitley agree with what you said. Having the right mindset and believing that I'm not dependent on the method helped me get my first LD, and it still is. I use MILD before and after 5 hours of sleep, where I repeat a mantra, then visualize. Also I think that the most important part of my method is when I do a RC, repeat a mantra, then give myself a speech. I usually just convince myself that LDing is easy, and I create and have power over my dreams. So far this is my most sucessfull method. And I have gotten 3 out of my 6 LDs in only 12 days. I've started LDing about 2 months 10 days ago, so obviously this has potential.

[EamonWill]

Thank you all for the feedback, and yes even the skepticism! Some people are like "I just can't tell myself I'm a lucid dreamer and honestly believe it". Doesn't it take honest belief? Yes, and no. I believe that if you are the type of person who doesn't think they can, but you want to, then you can "fake it until you make it." People who tell themselves "I can't" won't. It's not that they actually can't. They just won't. And that goes with anything in life. However, if you constantly tell yourself "I can" with enthusiasm, even if you have some seed of doubt then you will start to have a little success. If you can draw energy from that success and make yourself believe, then you will have more success. Eventually, you won't even be saying "I can" you will be saying "I did/I am!" In my personal experience, I was able to/am still working on this. If you were using any other new methods at the same time (preferably not). A couple of Reality Checks, a steady bedtime and diet, and exercise. If you noticed a change in the length of your LD. Not really. This hasn't been much of a focus for me. I'm more focused on quantity, and am planning to move into a focus on quality once I achieve nightly lucidity. That's awesome! I'm glad to hear someone else is having success doing something similar! Don't worry, I don't count those as other techniques. RCs are a necessary way to confirm the dreaming state and the other three are just things anyone should do anyway. And I have a nifty trick for dream quality and control. I say, "Activate Dream Stabilization" when I become lucid. I've only tested it once, but it was the longest and most vivid [lucid] dream I've ever had! It had an instant effect where I felt anchored in the dream and everything looked clear and real! I say it in like a robotic voice so it sounds more commanding... and it amuses me. Isn't that just another technique? Will meditating really change your mind? [They] might only serve to trick or cloud your mind, or, worse, trigger your unconscious into giving you false lucids about LD'ing. But getting your mind in the right place goes beyond just making suggestions to it; you must develop a strong sense of Self, which I think, in the end, transcends just telling your unconscious that you can dream. It can and will be just another technique if you use it that way. But I see techniques as more of a "Do this and get this NOW" kind of thing. Whereas, what I'm suggesting is that you have to give it time and put in effort to create a change in your mind that will be so overwhelming that you won't need anything else. And it's not just the meditation. The meditation is just how you will create the change. But the change itself is the actual shift in your mindset that now your entire being strives for and enjoys LDing and so it's something that you do naturally and easily every night. And I think that you will have whatever result you expect to have, so if you believe you will achieve nothing but false lucids you will. As for your last sentence I quoted, I think it's important to mention that I am not using LDing for flying or sex or whatever. Don't get me wrong; they are fun, I have done them, and I probably will again. But, that is not my goal. I intend to use LDing for deep, personal growth and mental and physical wellness. I don't think this is necessary, but I do think this helps. I like the idea, but i agree it will take alot of work especially with bending the steel bars in my head lol That's the whole point of LDing, right!? 4. Dedication ----> I will do it tonight! Hahaha, Awesome! And I have gotten 3 out of my 6 LDs in only 12 days. I've started LDing about 2 months 10 days ago, so obviously this has potential. That's awesome! I too feel very successful even though my LD count seems low. I only started about 3 months ago and recently I was able to have 7 LD in just under 2 weeks!!! That is what makes me believe in this theory; I had the most LDs when I was most confident and positive about my abilities. Now for an update: Yesterday I did do my mantras for at least an hour while being mindful and positive. I also remembered to practice RCs. I went to bed very positive and hopeful. I did not, however, have a LD. I went to bed very late, have been sleep deprived lately, and have been up to now disappointed and negative about my abilities. I will fix all of these and try again tonight. I have done about 30 mins worth of meditation today. I will finish up and go to bed soon!

[mimihigurashi]

Welp, I've gotten into the habit of meditating daily, at least 20 minutes per session, but it's still tricky to focus. Those mantras seem like they could hit two birds with one stone, so I'll give it a shot. Never meditated with mantras before though, so can't tell how this will go. Edit: Wow, I accidentally meditated longer than usual and it still felt like a relatively short time, lol. Using those mantras also helped a lot to keep my mind from wandering, too early to say anything about lucidity but it can certainly help with improving focus, which has its own numerous benefits, including increasing WILD success. But I do believe that, if insisting enough on the mantras and honestly trying to believe them, or like EamonWill said, "fake it til you make it", can get through to your subconscious and boost your lucidity.

[cooleymd]

For me lucidity seems to be about timing, only on weekends only in the morning after I would normally wake up. I am lucky that I dream about a dead relative often. One night I dreamed about this relative then woke up and smacked myself Then latter that night I dreamed about them in the second dream, they were the center of the whole dream again woke up and smacked myself Then I had a dream about a dream object and didn't notice I was dreaming even tho I knew it was a dream object, woke up and thought WTF? Next I had a fourth dream (near morning) there was my dead relative sitting on a couch watching TV. BAMM instant Lucidity! I was highly lucid I focused on my hands, I took off my shoes and walked in the grass it felt awesome, being barefoot was such a good way to be anchored stupidly I then decided to fly for most of the rest of the dream. Latter I managed to go back to sleep and trigger on a recurring dream (so for me its all about being in a dream at the right time of night) (I do use Melatonin B-6 and even 5-HTP to increase vividness to help detect the dreams tho) So you might try meditating on things like "I will dream of (insert dead person/pet you know here)" then when you see them you might become lucid. Or meditate on doing something impossible "I will bench 1000 lbs in my dream" Or "I will look into a dream mirror" (that is what I did, it was cool but I didn't trigger) Once I even saw the dead relative and knew they were dead then I thought no they were just visiting their mother in fact they were going to drive my car to see her (only problem is my car is as dead as their mother) meanwhile they were playing with a dead cat. I woke up and Quadruple smacked myself (so this might not work, even if you see the dead / or do the impossible)

[cooleymd]

Well guess it must be the weekend, and it must be exactly the time I'd been waking up all week 5:55am My best advice for dreamers always stabilize, stabilize first thing, how often do I do it first thing almost never STOP HANDS WORDS, not JUMP FLOAT and as and afterthought PALMS (hands with no fingers, well rub them together anyway) SILENCE BLINDNESS PARALYSIS I was waiting for a bus then I saw it, I gathered up my stuff, good way to do the whats in your pocket challenge when you have to shove everything you have into them and gather up your dream stuff in a hurry. The bus drove past so I chased it along with the other 30 passengers it didn't pick up. Then suddenly as we are all running after the bus, I notice her, the girl in the tiny bikini walking the opposite way. That bikini was a bit to tiny, OK way way to tiny. TRIGGER. As I incubated my idea (helping launch a new line of Victoria Secret products and needing to recruit a new generation of supermodels), I kept saying to myself the six tests I could use and thinking use your hands, do the flex, do the finger pull, do the finger penetration, don't JUMP Total time from the Jump to breaking paralysis about 33 seconds actual lucid time with sight even counting fingerless palms less than 10 oh well LucidCount++

[EamonWill]

Yeah, even though I do believe meditating with mantras can help, I also miss the silent mind, no thought, high awareness type of meditation I usually do. I can understand this. I love both for different reasons myself. The quiet mind is harder but it makes me feel energized and wakeful in a peaceful way. The mantras are easier and usually excite me and energize me in a burst of motivated happiness kind of way. Both are awesome, depending on what I want/need. Thats compeletly true. You just have to do it. The strugle comes from what you are used to. Very good insights here! Thank you for sharing. I notice her, the girl in the tiny bikini walking the opposite way. That bikini was a bit to tiny, OK way way to tiny. TRIGGER. hahahaha, nice dream sign. Update: I fell asleep rapidly and slept like a log throughout the whole night after the night with the LDs. I didn't have any LD that night but it was still nice in it's own way to sleep so soundly. I did not go to sleep until very late last night... too late... and again had no LD. I am still excited about the last two though. Oh, and weirdly enough, the guy who came to me in the first LD actually called me later that day!!! He still lives on the east coast and we only talk occasionally, like maybe 2-4 times a year! And our conversation was incredibly deep and insightful and helped us both with things we were struggling with! In the dream I thought of him as being there to take me on an adventure that was supposed to be personally/spiritually insightful. Premonition maybe...?

[cooleymd]

5:30 am a bit early but I awoke from a walk in freaky dream land, Had taken DHEA (in addition to B6 Melatonin and some 5HTP earlier) My dreams were lame and dull. Also It seemed like every few minutes I was waking up but it was 1.4 hrs later, also I could fall back to sleep so easy I couldn't even remember trying. Then I was on train after train, got off to early, missed them, was scavenging stuff people left behind in stations (new stuff). I had pets with me but they kept changing. Finally I was looking for them, and moved into the dining car (Light rail doesn't have these, and you can't move from car to car) So I Trigger from the moment I begin to take control the world instantly changes It had been a very real evening on trains and in semi-bad parts of town (A lot of places the train doesn't go by the way). Suddenly the world became as if hand-drawn, it looked stippled, and drawn with colored-pens. I immediately brought up my hand but only had one weird shaped finger and one weird shaped thumb, the were curved and jagged and looked drawn, I spent most of the rest of the dream just looking at one then the other, they would always look different but also weird. Only the second time I've been in a freaky world, not beyond description but my words don't do it justice, If I were an artist tho, it would be easily drawn Think I'll call it Monster's-Inc-Like-World LucidCount++

[cooleymd]

It is possible to forget a lucid dream, and then possible to recall it (I count 5 historic dreams in my LD count but here is an accounting of my first of my recent lucid dreams which I had after 2.5 months of RC and doing nothing else except dream journal, no meditation, no incubation etc) FROM MY SECOND POST ON HERE IN A DREAM SURVEY: I had awoken for real got up and took a shower and was sitting on the edge of my bed, I held up my hand and opened it saying this never (closed my hand and opened it again) works then it came back to me. IT WORKED LAST TIME!!! suddenly I remembered my 3 minute first recent lucid dream. I was outside my house walking out the front sidewalk in the center of our entirely rocked yard. There were no cars on the street but at least 50 people walking along, and it was broad daylight (I think it must have been several minutes into a false awakening) I thought this can't be real. So I brought up my hand. 1,2,3,4,5 What this is real? No way? closed hand then opened again 1,2,3,4 and a transparent pinky makes 5. WHAT? Staring at the pinky it becomes very solid. All the people in the street are standing still now (that had all been walking towards the main street in the same direction at the same pace). As I stared at my hand I noticed that my fingers didn't seem as stubby as usual, so two of them decided to get in character and started to shrink, then they began to twist and distort a bit bending and rotating and continuing to shrink as I stared constantly at my pinkey. [I want to point out that my RC served 3 purposes for this dream 1) detection 2) focus and stabilization 3) recall (because I had actually forgotten the whole thing)] earlier tonight I tried some meditation (I don't know crap about meditation I just breathed in and as I breathed out and said some lame incubation stuff), I don't know what effect it will have on next cycle but I hadn't remembered my previous dream and I had been up for like 20+ minutes and then the meditation, but suddenly in the middle of the supposed meditation the monorail, the bike, the casino, the co-ed-bathroom, the marathon, the electric vehicles I opened the dream journal and wrote down from the electric vehicles to the emergency vehicle because I only recovered those 8 minutes or so (better than nothing) Looks like I have also caught up and passed you in LD count EamonWill, sure Sageous has a slight lead but for how long

[Yuusha]

The biggest roadblock for me when it comes to "knowing that you can lucid dream" etc is that I am afraid that I might end up telling myself this for a long time, until it feels like I am lying to myself. I would feel like a failure if I "assumed" that I would become lucid the next night or the night after that or whatever, and nothing ever happened. I do believe I have quite good potential as a lucid dreamer, since I always seem to become lucid at least once a week right from the beginning if I start practicing for real, but that doubt and lack of real self-confidence in my abilities is always there anyway. I believe Stephen LaBerge gives a piece of advice in his book "Exploring The World Of Lucid Dreaming" that you should simply expect to become lucid "sometime in the near future", and not necessarily demand it the very next night. That sounds like fair advice to me.

[OneUp]

I'm a really strong believer in this, EamonWill, you are not the first to propose this idea- it has been getting scrutinized for a while now, but I believe that it makes perfect sense. Its the same principle in life that if you want to be a positive person, you become positive-just like that, but only if you really believe you are capable of it. If we can (and I know we can) get past those mental blocks and negative schemas, and really develop our expectations to fit what we want, we can change everything. I know that this simple method of induction is going to take off once we really get to understand how it works.

[EamonWill]

Wow, I accidentally meditated longer than usual and it still felt like a relatively short time, lol. Using those mantras also helped a lot to keep my mind from wandering, too early to say anything about lucidity but it can certainly help with improving focus, which has its own numerous benefits, including increasing WILD success. That's awesome! I'm so glad it helped you meditate! I think most people have issues with a wandering mind during meditation. I know I do and mantras really help me! They also force me to concentrate on exactly what I'm thinking and bending my thoughts towards the positive. Keep it up and let me know if anything happens! So you might try meditating on things like "I will dream of (insert dead person/pet you know here)" then when you see them you might become lucid. Once I even saw the dead relative and knew they were dead then I thought no they were just visiting their mother in fact they were going to drive my car to see her (only problem is my car is as dead as their mother) meanwhile they were playing with a dead cat. I woke up and Quadruple smacked myself (so this might not work, even if you see the dead / or do the impossible) You had me rolling with laughter through this whole post, as macabre as that may be!!! But, as you pointed out, knowing your dream signs does not always produce lucidity. They are important, but you are often so wrapped in the dream state that you fail to stop and think and realize what's happening. Also, I have little faith in my ability at dream incubation. I'm sure I could practice it and become better, but it's low on my list of priorities. The biggest roadblock for me when it comes to "knowing that you can lucid dream" etc is that I am afraid that I might end up telling myself this for a long time, until it feels like I am lying to myself. I would feel like a failure if I "assumed" that I would become lucid the next night or the night after that or whatever, and nothing ever happened. I completely understand and sympathize with this! In fact, I'm dealing with this now because I so desperately want results. But I am constantly reminding myself that this is NOT a quick fix. As I said in my last reply, "It can and will be just another technique if you use it that way. But I see techniques as more of a "Do this and get this NOW" kind of thing. Whereas, what I'm suggesting is that you have to give it time and put in effort to create a change in your mind that will be so overwhelming that you won't need anything else." This is a long term goal for me and I have to remember that and not allow myself to be discouraged. I see this as something that I will work on for years to come. And that does not bother me because the personal growth and the LDs themselves are completely worth it for me! If we can (and I know we can) get past those mental blocks and negative schemas, and really develop our expectations to fit what we want, we can change everything. I know that this simple method of induction is going to take off once we really get to understand how it works. Thank you! It's so good to hear that! I knew I couldn't be the only one with this idea! Latest update: Still no LD. It's a little embarrassing. Sometimes I worry that I am pushing myself too hard and yet losing focus because I want to report having many LD here. I think it may also have to do with a few other factors though. 1.) My co-workers have put so much bs on me lately that I literally had TMJ and migraines for two days! I HATE drama and refuse to be a part of it, but they are constantly bringing their drama to me and complaining and then causing my job to be stressful and more difficult than it should be. I have only just "recovered" after having a very good night's sleep last night. 2.) Right before starting this practice I tried SSILD. I only tried it 1 or 2 nights but it wrecked my sleep. I would be drifting, then have sudden awareness, and I would jolt awake with my heart racing! I was basically having mini-panic attacks! What's worse is that once I started the practice it became almost impossible for me to stop being aware of my senses and body for several nights so I kept doing this. I was honestly worried about what effects this stress would have on my heart, immune system, and body in general. And since I wake up several times over the course of one night (sometimes 4-5 times) this resulted in insomnia for a while. I think I could get good at this if I practiced it, but I can't get over these spells of panic. This is why I stopped WILD too. But, SSILD did have some success in that I have caught myself in SP (but without hypnogogic or hypnopompic stimuli...?) twice and have been aware of waking up once. (Funny thing is, I failed to realize that I was already dreaming and thought that I was watching myself enter a dream, hahaha. So... lucid or no? IDK... ) 3.) I've also been kinda sick lately. Anyway, I feel like I am on a better sleep schedule now so I will get back to being positive and try again... no... succeed tonight!

[mimihigurashi]

Latest update: Still no LD. It's a little embarrassing. Sometimes I worry that I am pushing myself too hard and yet losing focus because I want to report having many LD here. I think it may also have to do with a few other factors though. You should chill out. Because the more desperate you are about it the less likely it is to happen. "Trying too hard" syndrome. I was in that situation many times, I would want a LD so badly and be frustrated that it's not happening, chill out about it and let it be, and then that night I would have a LD. Also like you said, this is a long-term 'technique', you can't expect results so quickly. I'm no expert but it should take a while for those messages to sink into the subconscious, give it at least a week of daily 30-minute meditation. Don't force it though, if you feel like the meditation is not a pleasant relaxing experience anymore and you must make a conscious effort to keep it going, you need to stop the session, forced meditation is not productive.

[OneUp]

You should chill out. Because the more desperate you are about it the less likely it is to happen. "Trying too hard" syndrome. I was in that situation many times, I would want a LD so badly and be frustrated that it's not happening, chill out about it and let it be, and then that night I would have a LD. Also like you said, this is a long-term 'technique', you can't expect results so quickly. Yes exactly, or if you're in my situation, many times you will find that those LD's come when you don't try at all. It all comes down to intention with this technique from what I've learned about it so far. You literally just have to go to bed with the intention to have a Lucid Dream and then just fall asleep and not worry about it at all, but you also have to know you'll succeed, and sometimes you don't need to "know" anything and you can just fall asleep. As for the "long-term technique" thing, I don't think its that way at all, I believe its one of the quickest. But on the other hand who's to say there is a definite time where you start seeing results? When I started trying this technique at all I really expected it to have quick, first-night results, and it did. So alot of it has to do with mindset for sure. The entire principle with this technique is that you really aren't supposed to try, just know you can do it and go to bed and thats it.

[EamonWill]

You should chill out. Also like you said, this is a long-term 'technique', you can't expect results so quickly. Don't force it though, if you feel like the meditation is not a pleasant relaxing experience anymore... you need to stop the session... Yes, I definitely knew I needed to chill. I was actually thinking that maybe I should have tested this out a while before posting about it. That way I wouldn't feel "pressure" to show results. That is not productive! However, I did actually expect to see fast results. When I first started actively practicing lucid dreaming I had my first LD the second night. And all I new how to do was MILD. So, since I have already had LD and I was so positive and excited about this method and going so full force with it I thought I would have fast results... But, I am excited after last night. Explanation below. Oh, and I definitely agree about not forcing yourself to do unpleasant/insincere meditation! As for the "long-term technique" thing, I don't think its that way at all, I believe its one of the quickest. Well, I did expect to have more LD quickly... but my overall goal is nightly, full control lucids and that I expected to take a long time! Update: Ok, so last night it took me so long to update my dream journal (four typed pages for one nights dreaming!) that I couldn't do my meditation. I knew staying awake an extra hour would do more harm than good. Also, I just got new headphones and was dying to try out binaural beats. Lastly, I had just read through the thread http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ty-checks.html. All of that combined led to me (despite all the awful things I said about it before) trying SSILD again. I was insanely curious about nREM lucidity and I thought that maybe with the binaural beats going I could anchor myself enough that I wouldn't have the drift away/snap awake panic attacks I had described before. And I was right! I never was able to consciously enter sleep and dream, but I did consciously get to a kind of early stage SP for a very brief while. It was amazing though! I stopped being able to feel my body or hear anything other than the music and I could see dancing stars amidst a black void. And, all thoughts ceased except an awareness of my current state of consciousness, this overwhelming peace, and a bit of inner commentary/contemplation of the awesomeness of it. This was an amazing experience for me because I can never get my brain to shut up!!! I came back out of it within one minute but it was enough of a glimpse of what they were talking about in the other thread that I wanted more! I also was able to linger in a kind of deep meditation for hours at a time. Before I knew it, it was 6:30 am and I had barely slept at all. I had only dosed for maybe two hours and was able to remember these short, what I believe were nREM, dreams that I know I would have forgotten otherwise. Now you may be thinking that this sounds awful, to lie awake for 6 hours (I was in bed by 12:30. But it felt like it had only been one hour and I felt so at peace that it was really spiritually and mentally cleansing! I only stopped because I got up to go to the bathroom, realized the time, and freaked out a little... I had no idea!!! Also, I stopped because it was causing physical pain for some reason... like my joints and muscles started to feel tired/achy. I guess it had to do with the process that your brain goes through to test your body to see if you are ready for SP/sleep. Anyway, I did do some meditation on my mantras during this time as well... but more basic MILD stuff like, "I am dreaming" and "I can lucid dream." Anyway, when I finally just went to bed I ended up having two LD! Finally! Now, obviously, I can't attribute them to my technique. However, this is something I can attribute to my technique!!! My DCs were very accepting of the fact that I was lucid, and they were very nice to me, and they actually sought to make my dreaming experience better!!!!!!!!!!!! I've had about 16 LDs now I think. And in most, my DCs were either not accepting of my LD state, out to sabotage my plans, or were openly hostile to me. So part of my mantras have been in an effort to make my DCs happy about my LD state. I have concentrated on such ideas as: My DCs want me to be lucid. My DCs think it's fun when I'm lucid. My DCs know that when I'm lucid we all get along and have fun. Last night in my first LD, I had a DC show up as a WL friend. They had realized I was lucid and immediately found me in order to take me on an adventure!!! How awesome! In my second LD, I was with my Mom. I did a nose pinch in front of her and, no joke, she said, "Are you dreaming?" I said I must be and she proceeded to explore my dream world with me. We even hugged! And, she showed me a book that was "hiding" in the dream! I think I'm supposed to write this book! These were LD experiences so unlike anything else I've experienced and to have two in a row, I know this was because of my meditations!!! I'm going to start doing SSILD regularly, because now that I know what a wonderful experience non-dreaming lucidity is I am hooked! But I will always continue my mantras as well! They have turned lucidity into less of a struggle and more of an inner oneness for me, which is exactly what I wanted! Oh, and contrary to what you might think, I felt very well rested today! (Although, I don't think it's a good idea for me to half sleep like this for so long every night...)

[mimihigurashi]

I was actually thinking that maybe I should have tested this out a while before posting about it. That way I wouldn't feel "pressure" to show results. That is not productive! Yeah, even though I do believe meditating with mantras can help, I also miss the silent mind, no thought, high awareness type of meditation I usually do, I think it's the most effective for aiding my current "all day self awareness" practice. Frankly I'm kind of torn between them, I like the silent high awareness but I also believe with enough mantra meditation you can make the message sink in to your subconscious and boost lucidity. Guess I'm gonna have to try to meditate more for both methods. And fascinating experience, congrats on the LDs.

[Seltiez]

Thats compeletly true. You just have to do it. The strugle comes from what you are used to. Change is easy. Practising awareness seems hard because you make it hard to let go of the normal routine of thinking. If you just do it be aware for rest of your life then thats it your lucid dreamer but nobody is ready to put that strong intention to make it last the lifetime thats why we keep pracitisng to get used to the idea. Someday you notice that you are mindfull because you just are you arent doing anything its part of you now. Thats why techniques dont work. I think this kind of stuff needs time to sink in. They might be uncomftrable at first but you get used to it. Also many have hard to start meditating because they cant find reason with it. Meditation gives you clarity. It allows you to accept more. It makes you more open to experience. That mean you allow yourself more open to lucid dreaming. You will understand this in time. Meditate only that much as you can take it. I do it now and then for about 20 min which is enough if you do it right.

[Bobblehat]

Meditation for me is an escape. I don't attach goals to it. It just "is". Attaching goals to it would mean that my escape would become just another part of my life. So I keep meditation simple and goal-free.

[Hypertrophy]

Meditation for me is an escape. I don't attach goals to it. It just "is". Attaching goals to it would mean that my escape would become just another part of my life. So I keep meditation simple and goal-free. I'm afraid I have to agree on this one, but the very nature of meditating will contribute to your lucid dreaming potential.

[Ctharlhie]

EamonWill, your post follows-on very well until the end, when you supplement your argument against technique with the technique of auto-suggestion! While as LDers we may resent the necessity of technique, it's inescapable. While it's liberating to realise that, in the end, only your own limitations are preventing you from gaining lucidity, to think that all that is necessary is desire is another mindtrap. Perhaps the best approach is to accept that there is no LDing outside of technique (even 'naturals' are technical by their nature), and that, therefore, there is no right or wrong way of doing this; that LDing is easier than is universally supposed; that all that is necessary for LDing are the fundamentals, and that the fundamentals do not require much effort even to set up regular lucid dreaming; and that, realising these things, you can do away with the mental sabotage of over-analysis that is preventing your otherwise effective practice from success. Once we assume this more "zen" stance we can see that is not technique that was preventing lucidity, but stressing about technique. ((Sorry about the syntax in this post, I'm very sleep deprived))