Thread: For lucidity: Internal or External?

I don’t think oddities and relying on the dream environment are necessary for inducing lucidity. If by internal awareness you mean self-awareness then this is definitely the better to practice of the two. Self-awareness is what causes you to become lucid in the first place…it is literally your sense of you and with it comes your intentions and your memories etc.

I have become lucid before from noticing oddities in a dream (like disappearing furniture etc.) and that caused me to question whether or not I was dreaming…but I wouldn’t have been able to spot the oddity and attach significance to it if I hadn’t had a sufficient level of self-awareness in the dream to do so. I have also had a few like you describe - of just knowing it was a dream rarely noticing anything odd, and that got me thinking as well if I really needed to notice “oddities” but I decided from these experiences it wasn’t really necessary (in delta sleep for example, there is often no “environment” yet you can still be lucid).

Noticing oddities, I think, and relying on the environment would be akin to a “technique” based on critical awareness as a way of inducing lucidity…but self-awareness must be present to attach meaning to all this. So in the end I think it’s just a case of establishing your self-awareness in the dream through any means you find the most suitable - for example MILD, WILD, dream signs or any other type of “technique” (you may even come up with your own!) External awareness would be a good thing to practice if you were basing your means of induction on it, but I wouldn’t prioritize it.

Just my opinion…hope this helps

Also, I actually started a thread a long time ago on something similar if it's of benefit:

http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...awareness.html

There is really no need to add to Eamo's excellent post, but I will anyway, with one small thought for you to consider, Darksyntax:

There is a dirty little secret that you will rarely, if ever, come across on all those tutorials (including those presented by LaBerge):

When you are not lucid during a dream, there is nothing odd; ever.

The very nature of NLD's eliminates the ability to approach anything critically, because you have no memories from which to draw comparisons for your critique. For instance, when not lucid at all you cannot decide that four moons floating above you is weird or odd because you cannot remember that there is only supposed to be one moon.

This is why RC's don't make you lucid, but rather they confirm lucidity... you must already have some self-awareness present in order to get a proper result from your RC; if you don't, then your dreaming mind will simply offer up the answer you expect (usually that you are awake, but it might get frisky and have the RC show you are dreaming, resulting in a non-lucid dream about being lucid).

What all this means, Darksyntax, is that the instincts you reveal in your OP are correct: lucidity tends to "happen" in an apparently spontaneous manner, as an internal event. So you really never needed to post this thread, because you already knew the answer!

Now this doesn't mean that all that daywork with things like RC's, MILD, questioning the odd, and noting your dreamsigns is not worth doing. On the contrary; what those techniques provide is something to grab onto during those special moments when a wisp of waking-life self-awareness crosses your path during a dream. These wisps occur far more often than people might think, or remember, during their dreams; especially when you have built up strong expectation to be self-aware in a dream; or, with MILD, you have set a specific prospective memory to remind you to remember, to be self-aware. The better techniques don't so much induce lucidity as they do prepare your mind to be lucid on its own, and to reflect on that lucidity (noticing the odd is a means for that reflection).

So:

Originally Posted by DARKSYNTAX

As such, what should i pay attention to in my non-lucid-dreams? If lucidity springs because of a critical thought, then what is it that i should focus on in the first place? Noticing odd things in the environment? Focusing on myself? Trying to slip a self-awareness moment in the dream?

Don't worry about paying attention to anything in your NLD's, because it simply cannot be done. If you are paying attention, to anything, then you are already lucid, even if only just slightly; you have already slipped a self-awareness moment into your dream. Lucidity does not spring from critical thought, it initiates critical thought... get a good grasp of that difference, and it will be much, much, easier for you to become lucid during those brief moments of self-awareness that precede the "Ah-ha" moment of full lucidity onset.

tl;dr:

Is lucidity actually triggered because of an internal reason, or does it have something to do with the dream environment being weird?

Lucidity is triggered because a wisp of waking-life self-awareness has entered your dream, which then triggers the internal reason, which then triggers noticing the environment being weird. And that presence of self-awareness is certainly encouraged and amplified by the daywork you do with techniques like RC's, MILD, and noticing the odd, so be sure to do it all as much as possible.

I know I'm an outlier with all this, but I do believe it is true; I have often wondered why the primordial technique-inventors, like LaBerge, have failed to communicate this aspect of lucidity -- maybe it's just easier to convince students that their techniques work, which puts the students' expectations in the right place and also encourages a bit of placebo action? I don't know... it could be that the notion that we are all regularly slightly self-aware in dreams runs anathema to what they are preaching, making lucidity a bit more mundane than they would like.

I could write a book about this, and still not completely get my point across; hopefully the bit that I scribbled out here makes some sense, because I do believe the OP touches on something very important in the basic practice of LD'ing.

This is actually really helpful info. All this time i had it wrong thinking that i should "spot the difference" in my dreams. Hearing things like self-awareness and how important it is makes me feel more confident now, since i finally started tackling self-awareness practices after years of wasted time trying to do techniques. As an extra thing to say, i've actually had an LD last night after trying to focus on myself instead of the environment. Hopefully this means a good thing to my next attempts. And along with my mindfulness practice, i will add a MILD before bed to remember to be mindful during the dream, since mindfulness would result in self-awareness anyway.

All in all, Thanks for the replies. I was hoping to get replies like these after posting this, and it was delivered nicely.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I could write a book about this, and still not completely get my point across; hopefully the bit that I scribbled out here makes some sense, because I do believe the OP touches on something very important in the basic practice of LD'ing.

Yes Sageous .... You SHOULD write a book! If you took all your postings & answers in Dreamviews and then tweaked, honed & span them about a bit into a readable format then I believe 'Sageous Guide to Lucidity' would blow EWOLD & 'The Phase' out of the water. :-)

^^ Bless you....

One of these days I might just do something like that!

^^I would definitely buy the book Sageous! I credit many of my higher level LD's to the idea that your teachings on self-awareness helped to heighten my level of lucidity when I got lucid: http://www.dreamviews.com/wild/12557...mentals-q.html along with your http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ise-proof.html (the first post is enough) where I was inspired to prove to myself how lucid I was during quite a few of my LD's. This was through challenging myself to do things while in the LD that I wouldn't think twice about in waking life (mostly things that would make me extremely uncomfortable in waking life) so that I could come out of my LD with no doubts that I had experienced a lucid dream instead of a dream about being lucid. Quote from the Treatise thread "What I’m most concerned with here is what you’re proving to yourself -- I really don’t care what someone else thinks!"

A bonus would be if there was an ebook option in PDF format (where I can use my text to speech app) or an audio book.

@Darksyntax Good luck! It sounds like you are on the right track.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

@Darksyntax Good luck! It sounds like you are on the right track.

Thanks for the encouragement.. I decided to focus more on mindfulness after seeing how important self-awareness seems to be in regards to lucidity as i've often read that mindfulness increases it. I suspect that i'll have to work on this for a month to actually see progress, seeing as right now my self-awareness levels aren't the best.

I've come across a few people who practice daily mindfulness on this forum, and all of them seem to have something close to a daily success rate. Seeing that really helps, as i've been stuck with 1 or 2 LDs each month. Though i wonder, would self-awareness really get that good in a month of daily practice? I can only see for myself to know.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Bless you....

One of these days I might just do something like that!

Great idea Sageous ~ maybe don't leave it too long

Nice thread Darksyntax - I like your thinking!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Bless you....

One of these days I might just do something like that!

Im sold on the idea that incresing self awareness during the day will increase lucidity but I find it hard to find any actual practical exericises in the forums (although im sure theres plenty)

Can you give some specific ways in which we can increase self awareness ie: whilst im driving my car, brushing teeth etc.. What should i be doing exactly to increse self awareness?

And does mindfulness increase self awareness?

Thanks
Ezzo

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Bless you....

One of these days I might just do something like that!

You should! I would definitely read!

^^ I have had an outline for such a book sitting on a shelf for years; maybe I'll blow some dust off it one of these days... anyway:

Originally Posted by ezzolucid

Im sold on the idea that incresing self awareness during the day will increase lucidity but I find it hard to find any actual practical exericises in the forums (although im sure there's plenty)

Strangely, there might be less than you would think.

Self-awareness is a state of mind that is not so much triggered by exercises as it is welcomed and nurtured by a mind interested in (or suspicious of) its presence in reality. Unlike critical state tests (RC's) which ask simple yes/no questions (i.e., Am I dreaming?), techniques for assembling self-awareness must by their nature be much more nebulous, more ongoing, and more centered on teaching yourself to float thoughts like "I am," thoughts that are simply not conducive to stimulus/response techniques. So the effective self-awareness techniques you do come across tend to be years-long -- sometimes life-long -- programs or disciplines like Vipassana yoga, and not short, ready-made actions like RC's. That said:

Can you give some specific ways in which we can increase self awareness ie: whilst im driving my car, brushing teeth etc.. What should i be doing exactly to increase self awareness?

You might not be able to increase self-awareness while doing decidedly rote things like driving or teeth-brushing, but you can tap it during such mental down times. For instance, think about what you're doing, literally, when you are driving: notice that you are hurtling down a road at speeds unimaginable just a short century ago, that you are altering your place in your local reality every second, and that you are piloting a couple tons of focused kinetic energy that could change reality for many, including yourself, if your piloting is poor. Recognizing your presence in the moment of driving your car might take an extra few seconds, but that presence can prove profound, once discovered.

Simple chores like brushing your teeth might offer fewer opportunities for to spot your presence in the moment, but even those offer a hint: When you are brushing your teeth, you are generally standing at a bathroom mirror looking at your reflection. If you can use that mirror to take a moment to observe yourself going through the process of simple hygiene, then you might be able to assemble a moment of real personal discovery, a moment that has you wondering things like how you got to that mirror, why you are brushing your teeth every day, who that person is in the mirror, and any number of other things.

Self-awareness is all about acknowledging, experiencing, and accepting the presence of "You" in any given moment, and associating that presence with the local reality with which it is interacting. Unlike RC's, which demand constants (i.e., your finger cannot pass through your palm in waking-life), the nature of that presence, as relevant to its interaction with reality, is in constant flux. Self-awareness exercises are infinitely variable, and always dependent on the current interaction between You and your local reality... so the technique to trigger self-awareness, if there were one, would have to change every time you did it (this BTW is why the RRC asks essentially open questions and will tend to be different every time it is done).

So in a sense techniques that help you conjure, massage, and develop self-awareness would be in constant flux, and always be dependent (in a circular sort of way) on your interest in and ability to see and define whatever particular moment you might be navigating. Self-awareness techniques, then, would always be changing and rarely work well from one person to the next without modification. This is why it makes more sense to develop, over time, a mindset that welcomes self-awareness as a part of its being so that self-awareness will become a permanent part of you, rather than something to trigger when needed.

And does mindfulness increase self awareness?

In my opinion self-awareness pretty much equals mindfulness, so yes, mindfulness will increase self-awareness. And vise-verse.

Good questions, good thread. My addition is this: Since at least some lucid dreams come from noticing detail (strange, odd, or otherwise), it is helpful to have a plan for noticing detail. I have a system that serves as an outline for my dream journal, both for lucid and non-lucid dreams. When I recall a dream, I make it a point of emphasis to recount the location, the time of day, the ground and other surfaces, and the people, especially the color of their clothing and hair. I also have predilection for names and symbolism.

So, "awareness" is sometimes a remote and abstract topic. What I suggest is that one can approach it with very tangible and practical means. Look at your dreams and notice the patterns. Upon seeing them, commit a plan to record and analyze them. I think this methodology promotes a progressive familiarity with dreams.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I have had an outline for such a book sitting on a shelf for years; maybe I'll blow some dust off it one of these days... anyway:



Strangely, there might be less than you would think.

Self-awareness is a state of mind that is not so much triggered by exercises as it is welcomed and nurtured by a mind interested in (or suspicious of) its presence in reality. Unlike critical state tests (RC's) which ask simple yes/no questions (i.e., Am I dreaming?), techniques for assembling self-awareness must by their nature be much more nebulous, more ongoing, and more centered on teaching yourself to float thoughts like "I am," thoughts that are simply not conducive to stimulus/response techniques. So the effective self-awareness techniques you do come across tend to be years-long -- sometimes life-long -- programs or disciplines like Vipassana yoga, and not short, ready-made actions like RC's. That said:



You might not be able to increase self-awareness while doing decidedly rote things like driving or teeth-brushing, but you can tap it during such mental down times. For instance, think about what you're doing, literally, when you are driving: notice that you are hurtling down a road at speeds unimaginable just a short century ago, that you are altering your place in your local reality every second, and that you are piloting a couple tons of focused kinetic energy that could change reality for many, including yourself, if your piloting is poor. Recognizing your presence in the moment of driving your car might take an extra few seconds, but that presence can prove profound, once discovered.

Simple chores like brushing your teeth might offer fewer opportunities for to spot your presence in the moment, but even those offer a hint: When you are brushing your teeth, you are generally standing at a bathroom mirror looking at your reflection. If you can use that mirror to take a moment to observe yourself going through the process of simple hygiene, then you might be able to assemble a moment of real personal discovery, a moment that has you wondering things like how you got to that mirror, why you are brushing your teeth every day, who that person is in the mirror, and any number of other things.

Self-awareness is all about acknowledging, experiencing, and accepting the presence of "You" in any given moment, and associating that presence with the local reality with which it is interacting. Unlike RC's, which demand constants (i.e., your finger cannot pass through your palm in waking-life), the nature of that presence, as relevant to its interaction with reality, is in constant flux. Self-awareness exercises are infinitely variable, and always dependent on the current interaction between You and your local reality... so the technique to trigger self-awareness, if there were one, would have to change every time you did it (this BTW is why the RRC asks essentially open questions and will tend to be different every time it is done).

So in a sense techniques that help you conjure, massage, and develop self-awareness would be in constant flux, and always be dependent (in a circular sort of way) on your interest in and ability to see and define whatever particular moment you might be navigating. Self-awareness techniques, then, would always be changing and rarely work well from one person to the next without modification. This is why it makes more sense to develop, over time, a mindset that welcomes self-awareness as a part of its being so that self-awareness will become a permanent part of you, rather than something to trigger when needed.


In my opinion self-awareness pretty much equals mindfulness, so yes, mindfulness will increase self-awareness. And vise-verse.

Sageous, I read your reply and feel embarrassed to have to respond to it with only a small paragraph whereas you (as always) take a lot of time and effort to provide a thorough (and enjoyable) read. I very much respect your insights and answers. You mention Vipasanna which I know very little about. Is Vipassana something worth looking into in regards to an avenue to increase self awareness? With so many different meditations, its difficult to know which one to 'settle' on to cultivate deeper self awareness, thankyou

Ezzo

The conversation sure got lively in here! it's a good thing to see some interest in this topic.

I have noticed that at a random moment in my dreams, my presence feels a bit stronger than usual. It's like i had my awareness in there for a moment. I could guess that these are the self-awareness moments that Sageous mentioned.

In any case, what difference would more practice show? Would these moments start having more and more self-awareness into them to the point of kicking me into lucidity, or do these self-awareness moments increase and give a better chance of lucidity?

I've been mindful for almost a week. I did a practice like this a while ago and after about two weeks i achieved around 3 spontaneous lucid dreams within a few days. I'm more focused on understanding how this works in the end.

Originally Posted by DARKSYNTAX

I did a practice like this a while ago and after about two weeks i achieved around 3 spontaneous lucid dreams within a few days. I'm more focused on understanding how this works in the end.

Theres your answer!!! :-)

Our waking mind is our sleeping mind. The more self aware we are during the day, the more self aware we are in dreams creating lucidity. I was practicing mindfulness last year and would gradually realize that I was dreaming and become lucid in some dreams but i stopped for a while and the spontaneous lucid dreams became less

As Sageous say, self awareness is key to DILDS but its learning self awareness in waking life that is the challenge as there's not much info out there on the subject

Ezzo

Originally Posted by ezzolucid

Theres your answer!!! :-)

Our waking mind is our sleeping mind. The more self aware we are during the day, the more self aware we are in dreams creating lucidity. I was practicing mindfulness last year and would gradually realize that I was dreaming and become lucid in some dreams but i stopped for a while and the spontaneous lucid dreams became less

As Sageous say, self awareness is key to DILDS but its learning self awareness in waking life that is the challenge as there's not much info out there on the subject

Ezzo

I really should stop answering my own questions in my posts

Actually, i stopped practicing after 2 weeks aswell, but this time i feel more motivated to keep going. It looks like it would take a month to start giving some really good results as far as i'm concerned. Judging by my past practice, 2 weeks seems to be the point in which LD's start showing up.

Originally Posted by ezzolucid

... You mention Vipasanna which I know very little about. Is Vipassana something worth looking into in regards to an avenue to increase self awareness?

I think so.

Originally Posted by DARKSYNTAX

In any case, what difference would more practice show? Would these moments start having more and more self-awareness into them to the point of kicking me into lucidity, or do these self-awareness moments increase and give a better chance of lucidity?

These self-awareness moments don't give you a better chance of lucidity, Darksyntax, they are lucidity.

Lucidity equals the presence of waking-life self-awareness in a dream, so anything you do to increase your tendency toward self-awareness will very likely increase your tendency toward lucidity. So yes, a successful daytime self-awareness practice will very likely be paralleled by a successful nighttime lucid dreaming practice; if you can learn to associate self-awareness with lucidity and not see it as a technique (because it isn't), you might find yourself on a much easier path to consistent LD's.

Originally Posted by Sageous

These self-awareness moments don't give you a better chance of lucidity, Darksyntax, they are lucidity.

Thanks! I can't help feeling this is a powerful statement and want the truth of it to soak in to me big time!

I love how you spoke of the " I am" moment ~ As a way of explaining self awareness

Often I find when taking these moments to reflect on ones being in waking life and at night ...sometimes spontaneous ...sometimes through a buzzer or cue reminding me to - I don't always have a strong feeling of my "very own"presence and on these times my analytical mind will try to take the lead ...which is ok but I am always kind of looking for ways to keep it really with "me " for longer. " I am " has helped ~ I will use it as a kind of mantra to link me to self awareness practice and intending to Lucid dream

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I have had an outline for such a book sitting on a shelf for years; maybe I'll blow some dust off it one of these days... anyway:

You dont need the 'outline' thats sitting on a shelf, you already have the whole manuscript buried within the many replys to peoples questions here in Dreamviews. You would simply need to locate, collate, rearrange, print & publish - sounds like a great plan :-) I found a link to some books you have previously published ... that was a surprise in itself as I didnt know you was a writer.

Ezzo

^^ "locate, collate, rearrange, print & publish"...That sure does sound simple, doesn't it? Unfortunately, the step you left out: unify it all into a coherent, readable message that rises above the many excellent "How to LD" books already written presents the real challenge, I think.

I have been noodling an advanced LD'ing book -- what to do with your skills after you've developed them -- for a couple of years now, but there always seems to be something that gets in the way of its progress. I don't know; maybe I just hate writing non-fiction! The three books I've finished to date are essentially fiction, though drawn very heavily from my dreaming experience; it feels like the message works better when it is enveloped in a good story.

But none of this has to do with the OP, so I'll shut up now.

Ummm...please don't hold back on your remarks, Sageous - which are in fact more properly referred to as pearls of wisdom. The insightfullness of this forum's members into these seemingly un-explorable, ephemeral topics never ceases to amaze me. And PLEASE write that book! I'm sure it would very shortly thereafter be recognized as amongst the finest offerings ever committed to paper.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ "locate, collate, rearrange, print & publish"...That sure does sound simple, doesn't it? Unfortunately, the step you left out: unify it all into a coherent, readable message that rises above the many excellent "How to LD" books already written presents the real challenge, I think.

I have been noodling an advanced LD'ing book -- what to do with your skills after you've developed them -- for a couple of years now, but there always seems to be something that gets in the way of its progress. I don't know; maybe I just hate writing non-fiction! The three books I've finished to date are essentially fiction, though drawn very heavily from my dreaming experience; it feels like the message works better when it is enveloped in a good story.

But none of this has to do with the OP, so I'll shut up now.

It's day 3 of my mindfulness and meditation practice, and there is something i noticed last night. I have noticed that sometimes in my dreams i feel "highly aware" for a moment or two, like my sense of self is higher than usual. my brain stops going on autopilot mode during the dream for a few seconds or so.

Generally since i'm practicing self-awareness i would say that this must be related somehow. In any case, What is going on if you know about that?

^^ Well, if your mindfulness practice is fairly intense during the day, you might be experiencing a bit of day residue reflecting your activity. This is a very good thing, especially after only three days of practicing!

The trick now might be to spot that moment of higher awareness during the dream and turn it into a fully lucid dream. Since that higher awareness is a reflection of lucidity, or even a flash of genuine lucidity itself, it certainly makes for an excellent dream sign. Your continued mindfulness practice should improve your ability to do that spotting, so keep it up!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Well, if your mindfulness practice is fairly intense during the day, you might be experiencing a bit of day residue reflecting your activity. This is a very good thing, especially after only three days of practicing!

The trick now might be to spot that moment of higher awareness during the dream and turn it into a fully lucid dream. Since that higher awareness is a reflection of lucidity, or even a flash of genuine lucidity itself, it certainly makes for an excellent dream sign. Your continued mindfulness practice should improve your ability to do that spotting, so keep it up!

This sounds great as far as i'm concerned! Just woke up and in one of my dreams i started thinking about the possibility of it being a dream. No lucid dreams yet but this is looking good!