Thread: Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

Hmm, I too watched only the stop drop and roll video from him. I thought it was OK, although somewhat confusing at points and seemingly contradictory sometimes. I do think there is some truth to the whole idea of "roll over signals," I haven't had that much experience with it myself but a lot of threads I've read related to WILD and dream re-entry seem to at least mention this, if not make a big point of it. I'll be more wary with his material if I ever watch more, though.

I watched like 5-6 videos, and to tell the truth i thought he actually knows what he is talking about.
I'm thinking that a way to counter his videos is for someone to make video responses, explaining how wrong he is. One for one video.

But what does it matter if his science is wrong so long as it gets people lucid?

Originally Posted by seriouscentaur

But what does it matter if his science is wrong so long as it gets people lucid?

Hmm,
Dangerous way of thinking that.

It's a bit like saying... Oh, what's the problem with building a house on quicksand as long a it keeps the rain off your head.

The answer to your question is: Strong foundations.

See, the way i'm seeing all this is, when I was a kid and first discovered lucid dreaming (or realised it was a real subject), I was lucky enough to discover the work of Laberge. Now, If i was a kid now, there would be the risk I'd discover this clown, and mistake his salesman confidence for genuine knowledge.

He would have screwed me over completely, i'd have built my knowledge on lies. Eventually sooner or later, It'd crumble around me.

Would you rather your knowledge be based on fact or fiction?

If you care about the subject, as I do, then do you want new people discovering the subject to be learning well, or being misinformed?

The only way science and knowldge progresses is through being critical and thoughtful in our approach. How can new discoverys be made, if the foundations of your learning are based on misinformation?

This guy, has perhaps 1% of truth and 99% misinformation.
Do the maths... is that a good deal?
Do you want to be putting in a 100% effort into someone who is only teaching 1% truth? that means 99% of your effort is being spent learning nonsense.

Also do you want to try and explain lucid dreaming to someone, using this guys ideas, and then, because the person has half a brain they point out that 99% of what you are saying is nonsense?

I don't get it though... what about lucid dreaming is so truth-based anyway? Isn't it subjective? (Except for scientific facts about sleep cycles and what not.)

Originally Posted by seriouscentaur

I don't get it though... what about lucid dreaming is so truth-based anyway? Isn't it subjective? (Except for scientific facts about sleep cycles and what not.)

Oh dear,
You're worrying me.
If you're not careful, you'll be one of this guys victims too.

Seriously, i've been lucid dreaming for all my life now.
The experience of lucid dreaming may be subjective, but then so is the experience of learning chemistry.
But no one would claim chemistry is a purely "subjective experience".

When discussing any subject, im sure you'll agree, it's best to have the facts straight and your information correct.

Your questions are more philosophical, and can be applied to any subject.
When dealing with methods, science and knowledge of lucid dreaming... let's just accept that thousands of lucid dreamers and researchers have established basic knowledge on the subject, and that this guy is selling information that not only contradicts but misinforms people.

Do your self a favour, avoid this used car salesman... unless you want to get halfway down the road and your lucid engine explode on you.

Originally Posted by seriouscentaur

I don't get it though... what about lucid dreaming is so truth-based anyway? Isn't it subjective? (Except for scientific facts about sleep cycles and what not.)

A small minority of people can lucid dream naturally and easily, but for most people achieving lucidity requires quite a bit of effort and requires the use of specific techniques. This guy is taking those techniques and well basically complicating them by throwing in a whole lot of scientific-sounding jargon and BS.

It's like he's trying to teach people to get across a stream by following a long, winding arduous track up a mountain then climbing over some rocks and coming back down the other side when in actual fact there's a footbridge right in front of them. That's the best analogy I can think of right now sorry!

He's basically trying to make the subject SOUND really complicated
and he's creating his own jargon that only HE knows.

Why?

Because if it's really compliated and only he understand the jargon then
PEOPLE NEED HIM... it makes HIM important and HE becomes the only expert (because he made up the jargon and made it all sound complicated)

He wants to confuse people, because confused people are EASY targets to sell to, especially if HE is the only person sounding confident.

But, he's MAKING IT ALL UP.
It's nonsense.
It's not based on any evidence, experience or understanding.

Don't fall for it.

One perfect example is that stop drop roll video.
He has taken 10 minutes to explain something that can be said in one sentence: Don't move to much when you are trying to have a WILD.
(the rest of the 10 minutes is filled with nonsense and misinformation)

Now, is spending 10 minutes of your time listening to nonsense, and ego trip worth it?
When you could just come onto a forum like this and spend ten minutes reading condensed intelligent, experience based knowledge?

I'm not sure if Newport is a con man, or self deluded or both.

Oh I didn't realize. What could he possibly teach that would be so bad though? Isn't just hyping LDing up a good thing, since then it's on your mind more and you're more likely to do it?

Originally Posted by seriouscentaur

Oh I didn't realize. What could he possibly teach that would be so bad though? Isn't just hyping LDing up a good thing, since then it's on your mind more and you're more likely to do it?

This is my normal feeling with videos like this. When it comes down to it, the ability to lucid dreaming is mostly based on firsthand experience and practice. I normally support anything that motivates people to try.

My problem with the videos is that they present false information and claim it is a summary of all the information out there. The presenter says, "Don't read all these books on lucid dreaming. I'll just sum it up for you for four easy payments of $19.95." Then he proceeds to present crap he just made up.

It is one thing to describe your personal system for becoming lucid. We all have quirky things that work for us as individuals. It is another to make it seem like it is a summary of accepted knowledge.

I don't want to dis the guy too much. I'm glad he is spreading the word about lucid dreaming. I also know how hard it is to simplify this subject. You have to make your advice practical, without oversimplifying it to the point of it becoming false. I wonder if he has an account on DV. I would like to hear his side. I feel bad having everyone attack him.

I have a friend online who has purchased the 102 set and he has reported to me that it is 99% astral projection. And of that 99% there is a ton of fluff and possibly only 10% relevance leaving the rest as bad practice and shortcuts to the wrong road.

So all you dreamers here, dont waste your time thinking about whats behind door number 102, you're better off in the hands of the seniors here at the forum.

See, this is why I would be very worried if Lucid dreaming became popular to the point of going mainsteram. I would be afraid that everyone would get their info about it from some moron like this, because that's how stuff starts to degrade when it becomes mainstream. Perfect example: martial arts. 70%of the people teaching it nowadays are teaching some new age pseudo-martial arts bullshit just to make a profit.

More on-topic: all this guy is doing is spewing some made up bullshit that sounds legit to make a quick buck off of it. I'm with Shift, this thread should be stickied in newbie zone.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I wonder if he has an account on DV. I would like to hear his side. I feel bad having everyone attack him.

Somehow I have a feeling he wouldn't have the courage to come here, since that would effectively crumble his status as "an expert", since this site is full of veterans of lucid dreaming.

Anyhow, I opened his site and I thought I had accidentally misclicked myself to TV-shop site. However accurate or valid his information could possibly be I just cannot make myself to read the site which yells right on my face : "BUY MEEEEH!"

Maybe I have some time later on to watch those videos and evaluate them. Still, my opinion is that communities like DV is a lot better way to dive into LD than some salesman. I am not saying whether someone could get new tips and ideas out of him, but I wouldn't want to get started by buying his "package".

But people need to make there living and is there any way easier than ripping people off on the internet?

Yeah it's a form of dishonesty to claim to be an expert in a particular field and then go on to state your own ideas and opinions in a way that suggests they are scientifically-backed facts, eg by speaking authoritatively and presenting meaningless graphs. I'd say the guy has experienced lucid dreaming sure, but he's no more knowledgeable than most of our regular DV members. He's just putting on a teachers cap and speaking in a convincing sounding manner so that newbies will think he's the lucid guru.

Reminds me of an evangelist.

Should definitely sticky this.

Good thread monkey