Thread: Subconscious talking to you

Well Said, Darkmatters, and you are confirming for me why I think this discussion is important: One reward for mastering lucid dreaming might be the ability to tap unconscious activity while awake. After all, when one becomes fully aware of the inner workings of his mind during the dream state, why couldn't he transfer that to his waking state, allowing the ability to make full use of all the resources of his mind? Makes sense to me. It might be impossible, but it does make sense. And if it is possible, then it would be well worth pursuing.

Not so crazy at all, Raetin!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Well Said, Darkmatters, and you are confirming for me why I think this discussion is important: One reward for mastering lucid dreaming might be the ability to tap unconscious activity while awake. After all, when one becomes fully aware of the inner workings of his mind during the dream state, why couldn't he transfer that to his waking state, allowing the ability to make full use of all the resources of his mind? Makes sense to me. It might be impossible, but it does make sense. And if it is possible, then it would be well worth pursuing.

I think becoming completely aware of your subconscious while awake would mean you no longer have a subconscious. If your surface thoughts are a result of subconscious beliefs, hopes, and fears, uncovering these completely would move you into realms of consciousness no longer based in your personality. The subconscious is a result of not knowing the self. It is all that is hidden. Once the self is known and accepted completely, there is no subconscious.

Originally Posted by Tranquil Toad

I think becoming completely aware of your subconscious while awake would mean you no longer have a subconscious. If your surface thoughts are a result of subconscious beliefs, hopes, and fears, uncovering these completely would move you into realms of consciousness no longer based in your personality. The subconscious is a result of not knowing the self. It is all that is hidden. Once the self is known and accepted completely, there is no subconscious.

Okay. Is that a bad thing?

Oooh - ok, I didn't realize you had said "when one becomes fully aware of the inner workings of his mind... the ability to make full use of all the resources of his mind?"

No - I agree with Tranq on that and I'll go him one better - let me again evoke my metaphor of the unconscious as a dark ocean and the conscious as a lantern-lit ship tossed on its waves. Dark mysterious forms emerge from the depths from time to time - some frightening and monstrous, some incomparably beautiful. Some are close enough that the lantern light can discern them partially, while some are farther out and remain mysterious until they drop back to the depths.

Being a small, newly-evolved part of the mind rising from the vastness of the unconscious, the conscious mind is not capable of containing all the contents of the unconscious. Nor does it speak the same language - consciousness speaks in language and logic while unconscious speaks in images and feelings - you know the old left-brain/ right brain divide. That's why we have trouble figuring out what our dreams mean - we have to interpret them from symbols into language before the conscious mind can comprende.

The closer you get to the light the bigger your shadow becomes.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Oooh - ok, I didn't realize you had said "when one becomes fully aware of the inner workings of his mind... the ability to make full use of all the resources of his mind?"

No - I agree with Tranq on that and I'll go him one better - let me again evoke my metaphor of the unconscious as a dark ocean and the conscious as a lantern-lit ship tossed on its waves. Dark mysterious forms emerge from the depths from time to time - some frightening and monstrous, some incomparably beautiful. Some are close enough that the lantern light can discern them partially, while some are farther out and remain mysterious until they drop back to the depths.

Being a small, newly-evolved part of the mind rising from the vastness of the unconscious, the conscious mind is not capable of containing all the contents of the unconscious. Nor does it speak the same language - consciousness speaks in language and logic while unconscious speaks in images and feelings - you know the old left-brain/ right brain divide. That's why we have trouble figuring out what our dreams mean - we have to interpret them from symbols into language before the conscious mind can comprende.

The closer you get to the light the bigger your shadow becomes.

And I ask again, is that a bad thing?

I never said the conscious mind needed to be "capable of containing all the contents of the unconscious," though that would be very cool. It only needs to be aware of its workings, to tap currently unconscious sources as needed. And, once again, what is with all this "vastness" stuff, anyway? Isn't it all contained in our brains/minds/souls, and therefore only as vast as we are ourselves? Just because we don't full understand that which lies beneath doesn't mean we have to assume its unexplorable and fraught with danger. Also, for what it's worth, consciousness has been around as long as unconsciousness has -- it is not new. Sentience and self-awareness might be relatively new, having only been around for a million years or so, but not consciousness.

Finally, why can't we speak the same language as our unconscious? It doesn't seem too farfetched to learn to speak in images and feelings -- just ask any poet, songwriter, visual artist, or (dare I say it?) woman. This is not new territory. BTW, I think you might be putting too much stock into that left/right brain divide theory -- hasn't science already pretty much dismissed it, now that they know the whole brain tends to operate as a unit? Or were you speaking metaphorically, and I missed something? Also, I think we have trouble interpreting dreams because a) most of the time they mean nothing, and b) we are actually a bit too imaginative with the "symbol" interpretation and tend to confuse ourselves by over-interpreting something that our unconscious was laying out just fine for us; not because we are incapable of "getting the message" it's delivering. (that should get me into some trouble)

Bottom line: the unconscious is not a complicated, dangerous, scary being that lurks within, and conversely the conscious is not a sad little portion of a greater whole that is unable to comprehend its very nature. It's all one mind. Period. It contains lots of mysteries, sure, and there is much to explore yet -- who knows? maybe there are even some dangers. But all of it -- consciousness, unconsciousness, etc, are parts of our Selves. To ignore a possible way to explore those parts is, I feel, a bit shortsighted. Lucid dreaming might just clear a small path for some exploration. Is that a bad thing?

Your shadow may lengthen as you approach the light, but remember: it is behind you...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Okay. Is that a bad thing?

No, its the next step in your personal evolution.

And, once again, what is with all this "vastness" stuff, anyway? Isn't it all contained in our brains/minds/souls, and therefore only as vast as we are ourselves?

Ah I'm glad you asked! Cause I was thinking about it last night and wanted to write this.

New metaphor, still describing the same relation between conscious/unconscious:

It's like a computer. The unconscious represents all the hidden programming - the code most of us don't understand at all, that's necessary for the computer to be able to "think" at all. The conscious is like the User Interface - the friendly part we actually see that lets us communicate with that convoluted mass of deep programming. Windows and icons.

The User Interface is a small bit of specialized programming designed specifically to help us make sense of that deeper programming that's written in an inhuman language. A very good metaphor for the way I see the relationship - because the deep programming is in a language that's appropriate for computers, but that we can't understand until it's translated into that friendlier version of windows and icons.

Most of our evolution has been largely unconscious - true human consciousness didn't develop until a few hundred thousand years ago. Version 3.0 if you will. (After reptiles and mammals)

And if you understand how evolution works (I learned this from Carl Sagan, so it MUST be true! ) - it can't throw away old systems, it can only build onto them. This is true for DNA and for the structure of the brain itself. Starting from the brain stem there are three distinct layers - the Lizard Brain, which we share in common with ancient reptilian predecessors, the Mammal Brain or Limbic System, which is the outgrowth responsible for warm fuzzy feelings that mammals have and reptiles don't, and then on top of that the newest addition the Cerebral Cortex or Human Brain. All the higher logic, the stuff that separates us from the other animals, is contained in this newest part. So evolutionarily speaking, we've only just emerged from the mostly unconscious state into the human consciousness recently.

Another fact I got from Sagan is that the same pattern that we went through evolutionarily as a species shows itself on an individual level as we grow from zygote to adult - we start as a single cell twitching in liquid, then go through stages where we have gills and where the embryo is almost indistinguishable from that of a bird or a reptile. Then we emerge and crawl on four legs while existing in an unconscious state (babies are dreaming all the time) before finally standing unsteadily and beginning to take on the heritage of full human consciousness. Each one of us has re-enacted evolution.

Before we can finish this it's necessary for the brain to finish growing. There's a specific size limitation on the skulls of newborns due to the size of the female pelvis and difficulties walking that would be incurred if it got any wider before childbirth, so the skull itself is soft and segmented on emergence allowing for the brain to continue to grow thorough childhood. Actually it doesn't truly finish its development until somewhere in the early to mid 20's, which is when - finally - the full functioning of the human consciousness is finished and online.

So both evolutionarily and on an individual basis you can see that the unconscious mind is large in comparison to the conscious. It has to be because it (unconscious) handles so much more - it's broad and unfocused like the peripheral vision, capable of detecting patterns and movement while the focused part of the mind, like the central disc of focused vision - is small and detects fine detail. Each plays its part - THAT'S why they don't communicate in the same language. One is deep programming that deals with unfocused thought, and the other is the newer, constantly-upgraded focused User Interface that allows us to reach into the database of the other (larger) one and make conscious sense of what we find there.

I'd also like to add - about the right-brain/ left-brain thing. i have no idea if each hemisphere is responsible for a different way of thinking, but I do know that there are two distinctly different ways we think - described in the familiar right-brain/ left-brain dichotomy. This fact has actually been known form the beginning of humanity, and originally was described in myth and later codified by Nietzsche as the Apollonian/Dionysian dichotomy. I have a nice long blog entry about all this here if this hasn't already been long enough.

Also feeding into my concept of the differences between conscious and unconscious thinking is this Ted Talks video that I've linked to too many times in here already, which describes Jill Bolte Taylor (neuroanatomist) on the day she woke up and had a stroke, throwing her from what's known as left-brain (conscious) thinking into right-brain mode repeatedly. To me this parallels the difference between the way the mind works when we're dreaming (non-lucid) and when we're awake or lucid.

And if we're not agreed on THAT then we'll never see eye-to-eye (which I suspect is the case).

I think you're in some kind of denial of the nature of the unconscious. You want it to be just a small part of consciousness, but science just doesn't support that at all.


The explanation above also describes why we have always thought of emanations of the unconscious (archetypes) as coming from "out there" - because the unconscious is larger and less clearly defined than consciousness - hence engulfs and surrounds it.

Alright - I've said my piece. I think my work here is done. I don't expect you to agree with any of this.

Originally Posted by Tranquil Toad

No, its the next step in your personal evolution.

Which seems to me like a good thing indeed!

Darkmatters:

That's all fine, but:

When, exactly, did I ever say. imply, or even hint that the unconscious is "just a small part of consciousness?" I'm pretty sure I've been saying the polar opposite since square one on this thread. Regardless, per my "filing cabinet" metaphor somewhere up there, I truly believe that the unconscious is by far the largest part of the mind -- it most certainly "engulfs" consciousness on many levels. My point was that no matter how large it is, it is still part of the mind, part of the overall Self. It is not part of something else. That, and it would be an incredible thing to be able to tap that kind of power with my puny consciousness! Those have been my points from the beginning, and I never meant to say anything else.

I like your computer interface analogy quite a bit, but I can't help but wonder why you are convinced that it is not only impossible, but downright undesirable for the "User Interface" to learn some of the greater machine's (the general mind's) code? Seems odd.

Thank you for the unneeded lesson in evolution, I do get it. But even 300,000 years seems like quite a bit of time to me, in human history terms if not evolutionary. Being sentient, don't we have the rare opportunity to speed up the evolutionary process a bit, regardless of what the esteemed Dr. Sagan has told us?

There is a fantastic well of new experience, wisdom, and transcendent mental power available to us if we learn to understand the workings of our unconscious, Darkmatters, and advanced LD'ing could be a key to that understanding. Disagree away, that's fine, but to dismiss the whole idea because of existing theories of the unconscious is to step away from a potential game-changer that only LD'ers have access to. Why do that?

Oh yeah: And yes, I'm happy to disagree with the left brain/right brain thing, as are the neuroscientists who discovered that the age-old dichotomy simply does not exist about five minutes after their first FMRI scan into brain activity, regardless of anecdotal evidence, of which I agree there is quite a bit. The metaphorical and philosophic versions of the dichotomy might still be valid, but not the science. So not eye-to-eye it is; I'm guessing we can both live with that!

I've once done this in a LD. I called for it to appear and give me flying lessons. After waking up, it was pretty mind blowing after I woke up and recalled feeling like a completely separate entity from it... (Was absolutely no different than talking to another person irl)

I think it is important to make a distinction between hidden processes which are biological and instinctual in nature, as Darkmatters described, and others which are psychological in nature.

You are right that a large amount human functioning is not directly under the control of the conscious mind. Regulation of body rhythms, the need to eat, procreate, sleep, the need for companionship, and other processes all inherited through evolution. However I think that a large portion of the psychological makeup of each person has become hidden as well - the area we would usually associate with higher development.

Many people do not know why they behave as they do; why they feel the emotions they do; why they carry the beliefs they do. They are out of touch with themselves. The personality has become so segregated that their conscious self is like a raft being flung about in a sea of internal process which they don't understand. These things are only "subconscious" do to segregation of the psyche, they need not be that way.

Thus a journey can be made towards revealing what was hidden and making the subconscious conscious. This is the realm of modern psychology. Dream work, discovering one's anima/animus, personal understanding and actualization, is all about becoming a whole person again. This is basically where Maslow's hierarchy of needs peaks.

Once the personality is known and accepted, the process begins to reveal areas not based in the ego.

There are other realms, further things which most people had no idea were ever hidden. Linking back to Darkmatter's post, those evolutionary processes, locked away within the body, can become conscious. Deep body union, racial memory, seeing oneself as an entire species, not just an individual. For at the level of DNA we are all the same.

Out and out the connection goes, eventually becoming cosmic in nature. Discovering one's subconscious is the first step in re-connecting to a broader reality. As this connection increases, there are other levels of yourself, other levels of life, which can speak and commune with your ego - as the original post hinted at.

It sounds like you're describing the divide between the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious?

What kind of modern psychology are you talking about, what is its name?

I know through dream work etc its possible to recognize archetypes when they emerge, but isn't that only in times of crisis or great stress?

Surely it's not possible for the conscious mind to contain all the contents of the unconscious? Though I'm currently reading Jung's work on the unconscious and the archetypes (that's about as modern as my psychology has gotten thus far... ) and it does seem we began in our primitive state as essentially fully unconscious beings, externalizing all our thoughts and ideas and projecting them onto or into the outer world - imagining gods and devils and spirits in every rock and tree and river when really they were inside our own minds. And the story of our development has been basically the growth of the conscious part of the mind, with a corresponding shrinkage of the unconscious. Perhaps what you suggest is possible... to an extent. I'm leery about stating that ALL the contents of the mind can be brought into conscious knowledge... the conscious functions in a different way than the unconscious - it sees the trees individually while the unconscious sees only the forest. At least this is what I believe (as per my above post about left/right brain functioning - I suspect that's really a conscious/unconscious divide).

Darkmatters:

I'll leave your questions to be answered by Tranquil Toad, but I have one of my own for you: Why do you think we are suggesting that the conscious mind must "contain all the contents of the unconscious" in order to understand it and/or to tap its resources?

By analogy, do I need to own and operate my own supercomputer in order to browse the Web? After all, using your reasoning, there is no way I can understand the words I am accessing on this page because I have not fully absorbed every piece of information available on the internet.

By extension, why can't we learn to sink the occasional bucket into the well of our unconscious minds, and pull up bits that we need right now, and leave the rest be? Why would we have to dive down into the well in order to understand that that's where the water we drew came from? And yes, we would surely drown after making such a plunge...

Also, why is it that there must be a trade, as when you suggest that "the story of our development has been basically the growth of the conscious part of the mind, with a corresponding shrinkage of the unconscious?" If my unconscious is the warehouse for my memories, dreams, and reflections for which there is currently no conscious space allotted, why would I want it to become smaller simply because I have become more aware of what it holds and how to access it? Wouldn't I want my unconscious to be just as big and active as ever, so that I can tuck away the new discoveries I make during my explorations, so that they won't be lost?

I know I asked before, but I need to ask again: why is it that you feel that the unconscious not only is inaccessible, but must be inaccessible to the self-awareness of its owner? It truly seems counter-intuitive to someone who wants to practice lucid dreaming -- after all, isn't accessing the unconscious through waking-life self-awareness (aka consciousness) exactly what lucid dreaming is?

I'll bet that by the time you finish reading Jung you'll start changing your position a bit -- also, when you're done with Jung, I highly recommend that you read The Dream and the Underworld, by James Hillman. It was written in the '70's, so it still predates all of the neurobiology discoveries and also the "consciousness movement" that came later, but it speaks well to what we're talking about here.

In any case, this is a fascinating conversation -- I hope it continues!

You cannot be sure whether its your subconscious responding to you or whether its your imagination. Case dismissed.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

It sounds like you're describing the divide between the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious?

The personal unconscious would lead into the collective unconscious the way a twig leads into a branch. Thus you pass through your own hidden self before you start to unite with things larger.

What kind of modern psychology are you talking about, what is its name?

I would guess almost all of it. I'm not up to date on what they are calling all the subgroups of psychology, but most of it deals with one's own personality and the issues therein. It doesn't acknowledge larger realms beyond the ego. Jungian psychology began to tap into that with the idea of the collective unconscious, but even it primarily dealt with unification of the self. There is always Transpersonal Psychology, but I don't think it has much recognition.

I know through dream work etc its possible to recognize archetypes when they emerge, but isn't that only in times of crisis or great stress?

Not sure if this is what you mean, but I feel the self has different archetypes within it which are symbols for different facets of your persona. I doubt it would require stress to see these, though they may come out more clearly under pressure. I believe this is what the schools of astrology, the tarot, and the tree of life (kabbalah) are about. Though the only one I have any real understanding of is astrology, so I may be off on the last two. Astrology is all about understanding personal archetypes, with the different types of signs (sun, moon, ascendant, and various planets) all representing various aspects of the self. The 12 signs are like a broad cosmic blueprint, and when they are funneled down into the microcosm which is the personality, they are expressed through the many facets of a person.

You can use a pre-existing system to help you, though it is entirely possible to understand one's self entirely through inner seeking without external tools like the above. The archetypes will be explored, but your own symbols will be constructed to represent them.

Surely it's not possible for the conscious mind to contain all the contents of the unconscious? ... And the story of our development has been basically the growth of the conscious part of the mind, with a corresponding shrinkage of the unconscious. Perhaps what you suggest is possible... to an extent. I'm leery about stating that ALL the contents of the mind can be brought into conscious knowledge... the conscious functions in a different way than the unconscious - it sees the trees individually while the unconscious sees only the forest.

I'm not sure just how much of the unconscious, in terms of the processing of raw sensory data, can be made aware. It is certainly more than our current level, however. You are right that the ego sees the trees individually, where the "unconscious," or supporting level of conscious which gives rise to the ego, sees them all at once holistically. The ego is a tool for focusing and segregating detail which helps you function in this reality. The levels of consciousness which give rise to the ego see in terms of holism and connection. So your ego looks at a tree and it picks out branches, leaves, twigs, as its focus, where the "unconscious" sees the entire tree at once. I put unconscious in quotes because it is possible to enter into that level with awareness. The entire forest will appear as a network of relations, and you will sense it as one in the way you can feel your whole body at once. An easy way to see this first hand is LSD, which basically temporarily expands your awareness beyond the mind, however that is simply a preview of what can be attained with personal growth.

I don't think we started out unconscious and became more conscious. Certainly the mind has developed, which gives rise to greater self awareness; however, most animals, and early humans, while lacking a complex mind, had greater connectivity to these states. At one point there was a fall of man, where he lost connection with things greater than himself, and thus became solely a creature of the mind. And since the mind by its very function sees in terms of division and segregation, the whole story of human conflict is a natural result. Without that supporting level which sees all as one, the mind goes insane and fights with itself and others. It is a disconnection from larger unity, leaving what was once supposed to be a tool (the ego mind) to run the whole show. While we will hopefully expand out of this state as we evolve, I think it is not "natural" in terms of the majority of life.

A few observations....

A lot of things are naturally subconscious, from the standpoint of your intellect, because that allows you to do multiple things like walk and breathe without having your attention focused on them.

Although most people can consciously control their walking and breathing when they choose to, most people would quickly remove themselves from the gene pool if they had access to all aspects of their subconscious minds. A lot of it is out of reach because its too important to allow it to be consciously manipulated. Maybe a lot of that inaccessibility is hardwired in. But not all of it is, and I think that respecting the subconscious mind, and not trying to force or trample over it, is part of what's required for becoming more conscious of it.

I doubt that the subconscious mind is diminishing as a result of the ascent of the conscious mind. I think that both the conscious and the subconscious minds are developing. I agree that the subconscious mind often feels oppressed or impinged upon by the conscious mind though, and that there is mutual misunderstanding.

A limitation of mainstream biological and psychological theories, is they're only based on research that it has benefited someone to fund, and which can be controlled well enough to be reproduced by other researchers with some reliability. That leaves out an awful lot. Furthermore, if you're a statistical outlier, and other people like you have not been studied extensively, then theories which sort of seem to describe other people may break down fairly quickly in relation to your own experiences. Paranormal and shared aspects of the subconscious are largely ignored, though certainly Jung was aware of them.

Oh by the way....If you're walking towards a light, your shadow gets shorter. The only way I can think of for it to get longer is if you get rid of the floor and float towards it, and consider the shadow on a wall behind you.

Ok, when I said the unconscious is shrinking, I sort of pulled that out of my ass. I just sort of threw it on after "the conscious mind has been growing" as a sort of corollary, though I really had nothing to base it on. I just sort of assumed it.

shadowofwind, what so you mean when you say the unconscious is developing as well as the conscious? If you mean they're both growing, then proportionally the conscious isn't making any real headway - or do you mean it's moving more toward a union with the conscious mind?

In a way all this talk of fully integrating both parts of the mind sound a bit rosy and happy to me - sort of New Age Sunshine. As if the unconscious mind is a nice little park in the center of town where we can go and have a happy picnic and all will be dandy. I believe it's more of a wilderness surrounding the town, containing both immense beauty and unspeakable horrors that we wouldn't want to unearth. There are potentials in human nature that we can't face without losing our sanity - the potential to be a serial killer and enjoy it - to be a rapist or pedophile - a cannibal or to murder our friends and family. Anything that is possible in our dreams is there in the matrix of humanity. We survive because we repress that stuff into the shadow where we can't see it.

And about the archetypes - somebody asked about them earlier. From what I understand they mostly lie dormant in the collective unconscious until such time as we experience a crisis. That's when people suddenly have dreams of an anima figure or a wizard or king, or perhaps several of them together in a series of dreams or one big powerful dream that shakes you badly and that you know is important and must be studied. Maybe this only happens in people who have failed to integrate properly with those archetypes?

I suppose when I'm done with this rather massive Jung book I'm slowly chewing through I'll have my answers. Then it's time to start looking into more modern psychology. I thank you all for your help.

Whichever half of you is facing the light, the other half is in shadow.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

A lot of things are naturally subconscious, from the standpoint of your intellect, because that allows you to do multiple things like walk and breathe without having your attention focused on them.

You're right, which is why its important to distinguish between the unconscious psyche, and unconscious bodily functions. I wish I could control all my bodily functions though, like shutting off pain or telling my body to grow muscles. I'd probably wreak havoc, though .

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

There are potentials in human nature that we can't face without losing our sanity - the potential to be a serial killer and enjoy it - to be a rapist or pedophile - a cannibal or to murder our friends and family. Anything that is possible in our dreams is there in the matrix of humanity. We survive because we repress that stuff into the shadow where we can't see it.

I disagree somewhat on this point. I think many people would not be able to handle such things, especially if they were revealed all at once; but in the evolution of a being they must come to understand and accept the dark side, integrating it within themselves. Each person contains both dark and light. The ability to love, the ability to hate - in all their extremes. It is only when one side is not recognized that it holds power. When darkness is suppressed or not acknowledged is when it can control you. You can accept and integrate negativity without choosing to express it.

Diving into the subconscious may not be a rosy picnic, but you will have to pass through some fire before you come out the other side transformed.

I agree there's a lot of bad stuff that's suppressed, and don't disagree about there being utility to suppressing it. But the suppression has a price also. And when you're ready, relaxing that grip a little bit and letting it speak is a necessary part of self improvement.

I also don't see the gap between our suppressed depraved desires and reality to be scary great. The wilderness doesn't seem to be that 'big', speaking for myself anyway. Its more like there's bad stuff buried, and bad stuff that inevitably spills out and takes form eventually, in one way or another. One may be a bit larger than the other, in cycles, but its not like a spec of decency in a sea of darkness or something. Or if it is, its a darkness that you can see just by looking perceptively at how people actually live, with their rationalizations about sex and money and whatnot. Furthermore there's considerable capacity for good stuff buried with the bad stuff. For example, I gained a capacity to enjoy classical music, and to have more compassion, as a result of having dug up suppressed thoughts and feelings. And I think I'm less vicious than I used to be also, for that same reason.

I am racist, and unjustly so, and don't think my awareness of this interferes with my ability to control my harmful reflexes. If anything it helps. I think its probable that I would enjoy murdering, though another part of me would be horrified at the same time. I don't indulge those kinds of thoughts, for example I never watch horror movies. But I don't see that as suppression or denial, its just refraining from cultivating a way of thinking that I consider to be unhelpful. I've been excited by the thought of rape, so presumably I could get into that. But I'm repelled and appalled by the thought also, and I understand the harm it does, so I do not indulge those thoughts and wouldn't act on them, not even in consensual fantasy. I'm not a pedophile, but I'm inclined to misuse psychic power in a way that I think is metaphorically similar, and I suspect that this is where the physical desire comes from in other people. I guess I'd be more horrified about this stuff, but I look around at the world. I see a lot of racists who won't admit the extent that their biases influence their outlooks. I see horrible wars in places like Congo, and American weapons developers who are in denial of their own lust for violence (I've worked in that industry). And I know that a lot of people have been sexually abused, a lot more than talk about it. Personally I'd rather get that stuff out in the open and deal with it, rather than sweep it under the carpet and pretend its not there, when it is there. Furthermore, I think that the contorting effects of the suppression is where a lot of that stuff comes from to start with. And I don't see that being open and honest about it is necessarily that big of a deal. I understand however that not everybody is in the same place with this, and it would be ignorant for me to try to push that view on other people.

For me there is a tendency towards further integration of conscious and unconscious. I can only speculate on what the limitations are though. I think in the ideal situation there is probably still compartmentalization, even a partial division of identity, but with trust and open communication.

In comparison with other animals, clearly the instinctive part is stronger relative to the intellect in most of them, as compared to humans. But I could only speculate on how much of that is subconscious. Much of what is subconscious for us may have been driven there by the emergence of our reasoning ability. Also, it seems to me that the subconscious part of a man can be much stronger than of an animal. And its intelligent too - its possible to subconsciously do a lot of fairly sophisticated reasoning using feeling. As an example, I used subconscious thinking to score an 800 on the analytical part of the GRE, back when it had an analytical part, because I was too tired to think logically. I chose my answers by feeling in the direction of freedom. Not coincidentally it was my subconscious that forced this situation by keeping me awake the previous night. (I almost never have trouble sleeping, but my subconscious controls this.) I guess this sounds almost schizophrenic, or like luck. But it seems to me that the intelligence of the subconscious mind tends to be unjustly slighted by people who are strong intellectually.

Alright thanks. You guys have given me a lot to chew on. And I basically agree with everything you're saying - I did say the unconscious contains immense beauty AND stark raving horror, and I meant in approximately equal amounts - didn't mean to emphasize just the bad stuff. I just felt like that's the part that was being glossed over.

Heh - I suspect my viewpoint comes primarily from reading Camille Paglia, who's book Sexual Personae formed a cornerstone to my development. In fact it was her who led me to Freud and Jung as well as many more great thinkers, but her book is really a study of art history, focusing on the Apollonian/Dionysian divide and also what she calls the Wordsworthian/Russeauist divide throughout the history of human thought. Basically Wordsworth saw nature as a beautiful garden where the pleasant breeze stirs leaves of grass all pleasantly and all is harmony and beauty, and Russeau saw nature as a jungle where deadly snakes and poisonous insects lie beneath every leaf of grass. The art historical examples she provides are filled with horrible mutilations of people who believed in the Wordsworthian beauty and harmony - so yeah, these would be people who suppressed the dark side of human nature and ignored it at their own peril.

shadowofwind, thank you in particular for being courageous enough to give personal examples.

Heh - also I think as a writer and filmmaker I just like to think of the darker aspects of the unconscious because it makes for so much cooler art!!

Plus I guess all those dark potentials I mentioned don't manifest in a healthy individual, only if you're psychologically damaged.

Originally Posted by DarkComrade

I don't know. But I have once read about something years ago, that there's this kind of divine force in you that you can train yourself to lisen to... And it will help you thru life with making the right decissions. Like when you are driving and suddenly it tells you not to go right but left. You ask it why and it tells you to just go left and put on the radio. You go left and put on the radio and the broadcasters say there's a traffic a few km's ahead on the right turn you usually take. Ofcourse you could just have put on the radio earlier, but you ge the point. It's a force that speaks to you not with words but with pictures and associated emotions with it or something it was.

I've tried finding it again for years now but I fail everytime.

Could it have been this? I got that from here, read it a couple months ago. Even if it's not, it's interesting. I'd like to be able to do this.

Originally Posted by Kitties

Could it have been this? I got that from here, read it a couple months ago. Even if it's not, it's interesting. I'd like to be able to do this.

That inner voice is really something, wonder how I talk to mine....

Originally Posted by Raetin

That inner voice is really something, wonder how I talk to mine....

...You just did, simply by tapping it to assemble the sentence you wrote, and for information to express the thought itself. You are always "talking" to your unconscious mind, and it is always talking back. It's the quality of the conversation that matters here, I suppose. That and training yourself to be more aware of the exchange. Mastering Lucid dreaming is a good first step...

Remember, whether conscious or unconscious, the thoughts are all yours; access to them might be hard, but might not be impossible.