Dream "firewall" suggestions?

[Ollie]

I've been thinking lately about strange lucid dream experiences, and I've decided that a ton of my dreams have been invaded. The first time I experienced an invasion in a dream was when I was spending the night at one of my best friend's houses. When we went to sleep, we both had a strange dream, that has confused me for quite some time. The dream started zoomed out very far away. The scene was a completely black void. In the distance, I saw a man standing. Although the void was consistent of utter nothingness, I could see the man's shadow. My field of view started panning and zooming toward the man. I could see his exact features now. He was tall (around 7 feet tall), with a black trench coat. He worse skinny black pants, and elegant shoes. He was bald, and had a face and smile that I can never forget. His left hand was inside of his trench coat pocket, while his right was at his side. He took out a golden pocket watch from the pocket, looked at it, and looked straight at me (us) and said: "Tick... Tock..." as he pointed to the time. I awoke with a very strange and eerie feeling, and I knew that my dream was invaded. I forgot about this event for many years, until I started talking to another good friend of mine about lucid dreams. He told me that one Summer, he had a long stretch of lucid dreams. He had a lucid dream every night, for 12 nights. On the twelfth night, he decided that he would Google translate something in French (a language that he doesn't speak a lick of). He typed in "I'm going to walk my dog" and pressed enter. After immediately pressing enter, his computer monitor cracked and he was pushed back on his rolling chair. Behind him appeared a man, which he described to me as a tall man... With a black trench coat... With his right hand on his shoulder, and his left hand in his pocket... The only difference about our two men was that his man had hair, and mine did not. The man told him: "I can't let you do that.", and he was awoken. Since that night, my friend informs me that he has not had a lucid dream. To the point: We came to the conclusion that these DCs are not our own, but they are dream guards, as we dubbed them. I believe that they are dream invaders, keeping people from certain and infinite information that can be taken from dreams. Since I believe in invasion and have even performed an invasion, I would like to know: How can I create some sort of firewall, if you will, to prevent invasions? I've noticed that even when I dive deeper into my subconscious (2nd and 3rd stage), I am still being invaded. How far do I have to go and what do I need to do to stop invasions from happening? Please share any stories and ideas, thank-you.

[TwoCrystalCups]

I thought i was the only one, but my invader is a female i knew long ago, but she is filled with jealously and hate, and stops or tries to stop me from what i do in my dreams. Many people here told me it's just a projection of myself, when i know it's not. Why i know? is because a few days ago i dealt with this invader while i made myself a 2nd party in my own dreams, i made her vanish and my dream changed>>it's in my DJ. I don't know if this made her stop, because now it's been 2 days with no dreams what so ever. I SO believe you that invaders can even go to DEILD dreams, if they didn't invade your 1st dream they can invade the 2nd one. All i can say is lets see if my 2nd party worked. For now. But all i know is invaders "train" to do this, these are real people interrupting your dream. My conclusion is i know she isn't a DC, because i used to be a pro handling DC's, in whatever challenge they got. I still am good at controlling my DC's and my dream surroundings, it's just this female is blocking what i want to do in the dream, like how you are experiencing.

[Ollie]

I'm sardonically glad to see that I'm not the only one who struggles with invaders. Every time I'm invaded, I lose control, which is ridiculous since I have flawless and perfect control of all my dreams. In one situation, a dragon invaded my dream and stopped my lucidity, but was slain by one of my most trusted DC's that I bring along with me on extended adventures. Other than that ONE time, all my other invasion experienced have caused me to lose control, no matter where I was, what I was doing, and which DC's were with me.

[TwoCrystalCups]

All i know this person hated me long ago, and is still in my dreams off and on for over 7 years. Over those 7 years i have been training to control my dreams, and until now i hope i know how to make her go away. She just doesn't want me to dream, dream share and dream telepathy communicate with this guy i have recurring dreams with which we both knew 14yrs ago. This is actually a very personal situation apart from yours but, it is closely related to what you are experiencing. And i do believe people can invade and use rituals to control your dreams. If i didn't make her go away, i am going to be so pissed off, my bad side is going to appear very soon once this keeps going, hopefully my true warrior side that was from 5-6yrs ago will come back, it's been awhile since i lasted fought very hard in dreams and still conquered. Invaders hate people like me. Then so be it.

[Ollie]

Well, hopefully we'll find a way to block all unwanted guests out of all of our dreams.

[TwoCrystalCups]

Well, hopefully we'll find a way to block all unwanted guests out of all of our dreams. Yes, but everyone has their own methods in dealing with these intruders. Finally i had a fun and great dream last night without any intruders, and finally spoke with my recurring dream guy i used to know in real. What worked for me at the time was becoming a 2nd party and deal with this stalker/intruder.

[littlezoe]

That's what we call a topdog... It's just part of your subconscious trying to stop you in your lucid attempt.

[shadowofwind]

Since I believe in invasion and have even performed an invasion, I would like to know: How can I create some sort of firewall, if you will, to prevent invasions? Based on my experience, if you explore your assumptions about identity and power, your experiences of such things will change dramatically. Otherwise there is no effective firewall, only patches that seem to work for a short time before a leak springs somewhere else. This is almost the same issue as in the 'dream police' discussions of a year or so ago. An encounter with dream police involves a thought about wanting to do something that is prohibited by a personified authority. If your mentality is foreign to that way of thinking then you don't have those kinds of experiences. You'll still have limits on your power, but you won't experience them in at all the same way, and they will change as you change. As I see it, the fact that two different people experience such things so differently demonstrates that the dreamer is involved with interpreting and projecting the experience. Of course, another possible explanation is that only people who have played lots of video games and watched movies like The Matrix have such experiences because only they are a threat to the dream intelligentsia. People like myself get left alone because we're dupes. Or maybe I'm an agent and I'm here to sow confusion. Note that I'm not suggesting that the experience is unreal, or that there is no foreign or invasive element in the dream. I'm just trying to share something about what I know about the aspect of the dream that the dreamer controls, since that seems to me to be key to better control.

[TwoCrystalCups]

Well i never had to put myself in 2nd party to deal with this stubborn stain lol but of course mine is totally different story apart from Ollie's. I know for a fact my subconscious will never try to stop me from even communicating with this guy so why is it? Because it never did before and my subconscious and conscious is fine with him in my dreams, there is nothing wrong with him being there, this is why. If it WAS my subconsciousness preventing me to do so, i am and was really telling them to F**k off and if this keeps going i'm sure this isn't my subconsciousness, because usually it listens to me. You know what i mean, zoe and shadow? I used to have dreams of him long ago and never had this problem. The only problem is, "she" goes and comes when she pleases, i can't track her easy. But for now let's just see because i don't want to speak too soon and she ends up coming back. It's bad luck talking about her lol.

[littlezoe]

If it WAS my subconsciousness preventing me to do so, i am and was really telling them to F**k off and if this keeps going i'm sure this isn't my subconsciousness, because usually it listens to me. You know what i mean, zoe and shadow? That's what you like to believe. The reality is that the subconscious is working against you anytime it can. Hence why there are a lots of distractions in lucids. Sometimes they are more serious, like what Ollie talked about for example. No need to mystific everything.

[hermine_hesse]

Our state of mind, worldview, and how we frame events all have a major impact on our dreams. I have had what I believe to be foreign entities multiple times in my dreams. When encountering these entities, I could have framed this as an "intrusion" and immediately begin attacking them. Instead, I always frame these encounters as a "visit", speak directly to the entity, and try to learn from it - even when the entity appears hostile or frightening. In all instances the encounters ended peacefully, sometimes with me learning something. Whether these are actual entities, projections of my subconscious, or some combination of both, I could have missed out on a learning opportunity by going on the defensive and trying to expel the visitor from my dream. Ollie, if you encounter an "intruder" again, why not try thinking of it as an exotic visitor from a foreign land? Approach it directly and ask questions like "Who are you?" Why are you here?" "What can you teach me?" However, if you do want a simple shielding technique, I have one I was taught many years ago by my aunt who had intrusions in her dreams. I've never had use for it myself (I find strange elements in my dreams exciting), so I can't speak to its effectiveness. Before you fall asleep, imagine a golden bubble of liquid metal surrounding you. Set your intention into the shield that nothing unwanted or intending harm can pass through. Hold the shield and your intention steady as you fall asleep.

[TwoCrystalCups]

Like the movie Inception right? People got to stop seeing movies like that and believe in what they see out of a hollywood movie. There's more to dreams than you think. If you don't want to believe me then i don't care. I have been studying about dreams long ago. There is more than just subconsciousness. That's what you like to believe. The reality is that the subconscious is working against you anytime it can. Hence why there are a lots of distractions in lucids. Sometimes they are more serious, like what Ollie talked about for example. No need to mystific everything.

[Singularity125]

Now hold on, hathor. Having seen Inception lately, the entire movie is about people invading other people's dreams to implant ideas. So really, your idea of invaders is just as similar to Inception than the idea of the subconscious working against you. They're both in that movie to a fairly large degree. Note that I'm not trying to attack anyone's ideas here, only pointing out that calling something fantasy is kind of rude. If anything, I'm more inclined to believe that invaders CAN happen... but Occam's razor generally applies, and unless you have "proof", it's easier to assume it's your subconscious. I feel like invaders are a lot more rare than people want to believe. Now, the proof I'm talking about is purely subjective, so if you really think it was an invader, that's your right. I have to second hermine's advice on this one, though. Whether the invader is real or just part of your subconscious, a peaceful approach tends to get you farther than a violent one. Besides, the worst that happens is that you die in your dream, then wake up. No need to fight back.

[shadowofwind]

If I may jump in again here....Occam's razor says that a person shouldn't introduce more parameters than are sufficient to account for a situation. It says nothing about preferring parameters that people find more familiar or commonly accepted. So, if a person doesn't have evidence supporting the conclusion that a dream invasion has or has not occurred, Occam's razor says leave it open, don't decide either way. It does not say to assume that the conventional explanation is right unless there is evidence otherwise. That's exactly the kind of thing that Occam's razor says not to do, because it would be adding an unnecessary assumption that's not supported. Now of course, if you already have a 'conventional' explanation that is known to be true and is sufficient to explain the situation, then Occam's razor says why bother to introduce anything else. And that is how most people interpret Occam's razor, and is more what you had in mind. But I think that "its easier to assume its your subconscious" partially fails here because people have such a vague and incomplete idea of what the subconscious is or what it includes. Yes of course the dream invasion experience comes out of a person's subconscious, but what does that mean? See my rant about Jung over at http://www.dreamviews.com/f96/astrol...31/index2.html and elsewhere for further thoughts on this if you're interested. (I'm partially giving up on the beyond dreaming forum because the most interesting threads keep getting moved, even though the other forum is so hard to find.) In any case, I completely agree with the approach suggested by Singularity and Hermine Hesse and others, I just wanted to say that despite that I do believe Hathnor that her experiences are not 'just her subconscious', and it sucks when have to deal with something that other people who are not in your shoes tell you isn't even real. (Not to suggest that either you are doing that, I can understand if she feels that way some after what I and others have said throughout the course of this thread.)

[Sivason]

I choose to think that the largest amount of these experiences are a creation of sub-concious thought. However, I also do believe that some of the experiences do in fact involve entities from an astral realm or other dreamers. I have had hundreds of encounters with entities and eventually have come to some what understand and become friends with some of them. In my experience there are different realms that have evoloved entities that are very different from realm to realm. Inside any one realm a variety of forms of life are native. This means, in my opinion, that no one can really tell someone what they have encountered. The scale of possabilities is to huge to speak with certain authority. I hope Hathor's situation is that of a being playing with her, or trying to challenge her or teach her emotional control. That would be a plesant way to look at it. Hathor, I can tell you one thing that may help. You have a personal space that is yours for dreaming. It has some protection against intrusion. Next to this space is a communal area that connects to other dreamers private space. It is easy to wander out of your area if you are inclined that way. In which case, the experience is not an intrusion, it is an encounter. Try to find the boundry and if you are unhappy dealing with 'her' believe that you are leaving the communal zone and returning home. Then say some thing pleasant like this "you are not welcome here, unless you can talk to me calmly." I am not saying a being could not force its way in, but honestly most other worldly being are no where near as powerful as you if the encounter happens in your own space. A request should be enough, if you are sure you are 'in your own head.' Do not take this as me saying you shouldn't get out and explore the universe, but just remember you have a safe 'home base.'

[littlezoe]

Like the movie Inception right? People got to stop seeing movies like that and believe in what they see out of a hollywood movie. There's more to dreams than you think. If you don't want to believe me then i don't care. I have been studying about dreams long ago. There is more than just subconsciousness. I see you have reading problems We are talking about the agressive DCs here, they are part of the subconscious.

[TwoCrystalCups]

The reason why i came up with Inception is because people are saying the subconscious in dreams tends to be opposite of what you are in the dreams. I never said Inception IS what you guys are saying or talking about, it was only an example of the subconscious part. AND the reason why is because i say WHY is my this female attacking me? The only answer i get from here is of course is my subconsciousness, this is the reason why it lead to my example of inception. And no i have no reading problems zoe. Just people don't understand my point of view so i got to explain it to them. And yes i approached her in a positive way several days ago singular. It's in my DJ. She vanished and haven't seen her since, but i can't say anything now because lately i been having some sleeping problems ever since the last "positive" dream i had.

[Wolfwood]

Is it not far more easier to deal with such 'invaders' if you believe them to be manifestations of your subconscious, rather than real, independent entities? For to label them as real, independent entities immediately gives them their own uncontrolled magic and power, and a greater probability of evoking fear in you --- your greatest enemy.

[hermine_hesse]

Is it not far more easier to deal with such 'invaders' if you believe them to be manifestations of your subconscious, rather than real, independent entities? For to label them as real, independent entities immediately gives them their own uncontrolled magic and power, and a greater probability of evoking fear in you --- your greatest enemy. I mostly agree with this, however, if the "invader" is a real, independent entity, this approach won't make a difference. I wonder what defines something as a "real entity" or "just a manifestation of the subconscious". I suspect these two categories aren't as mutually exclusive or clearly defined as we think. Tulpas, UFOs, and shadow people all seem to have independent existence, but (IMO) are physic manifestations. I would call these both real entities and manifestations of the subconscious. If a real entity appears in our dreams, how we perceive it is our subconscious's rendering of it's form, especially an entity beyond our comprehension. Personally, when I encounter someone/something that isn't obviously a regular DC, I just keep the door open for either possibility.

[Sivason]

I mostly agree with this, however, if the "invader" is a real, independent entity, this approach won't make a difference. I wonder what defines something as a "real entity" or "just a manifestation of the subconscious". I suspect these two categories aren't as mutually exclusive or clearly defined as we think. Tulpas, UFOs, and shadow people all seem to have independent existence, but (IMO) are physic manifestations. I would call these both real entities and manifestations of the subconscious. If a real entity appears in our dreams, how we perceive it is our subconscious's rendering of it's form, especially an entity beyond our comprehension. Personally, when I encounter someone/something that isn't obviously a regular DC, I just keep the door open for either possibility. Great points. I could not have said it better. Some of you are assuming you 'know' what others are experiencing, and that it is not an entity, just because you choose to think all that stuff is silly or irrational. It is just as easy to say the central figure in various religions was no one special, or that energy work is all in the head. Feel free to state that you 'know' we few are all wrong; just accept that you doing so is pre-judging the situation, with nothing to base it on but your own doubts.

[Baron Samedi]

You own your Inner World, but you do not own your dreams. You can seal your Inner World, but not The Dream Plane.

[Sivason]

You own your Inner World, but you do not own your dreams. You can seal your Inner World, but not The Dream Plane. Hey it's Waking Nomad! Have not seen you post anything for awhile. So, do yo have an opinion on my claim that if you retreat to your own inner world and are followed, that you will have much more authority there than if you were out in the dream realm common areas? Every one will have had their own experiences, I am just stating mine, and wondering what you think of it.

[Wolfwood]

Great points. I could not have said it better. Some of you are assuming you 'know' what others are experiencing, and that it is not an entity, just because you choose to think all that stuff is silly or irrational. It is just as easy to say the central figure in various religions was no one special, or that energy work is all in the head. Feel free to state that you 'know' we few are all wrong; just accept that you doing so is pre-judging the situation, with nothing to base it on but your own doubts. What? I don't quite understand why you're responding as if you're being attacked. Though I am interested...why do you believe these invaders to be--at their energy level, not form--to be independent to the mind?

[Sivason]

What? I don't quite understand why you're responding as if you're being attacked. Though I am interested...why do you believe these invaders to be--at their energy level, not form--to be independent to the mind? I did not feel attacked, so the tone was suppossed to have been factual not confrontational. Sorry if it reads that way. I will say that any one of us who believe this stuff, can not claim our own experiences count as any proof. So, we can say that to every part of our being and experience, it does not appear to be generated from inside the self. That kind of statement is hard to argue one way or the other. However, to stand up and proclaim that these things can not be what we suspect is,,,, well just reread what my point was above. Why do I believe that entities do exist and can be contacted through our dreams? I only can tell you that I am an educated adult (41) who is not radical or hippyish. I have experienced about 25 years back the same things these two are describing. That is a feeling that something had gone wrong in my dreams, and that people where in the dreams who I had not created. I addressed them. I was directly approached face to face with one of them. The first face to face was an overwhelming and terrifying thing. I was 100% sure due to a internal knowing that this being was real, powerful, and in my face. The being excuded a force that I could detect, but it is too foriegn to describe. It is like only me and entities exude a heat or vibration that does not come from created dream imagery or DCs. Think of how sharks can see electrical nerve impulses from barried fish. If you are not a shark, you could not picture it. If you have not been face to face with a real entity in your dream, you would not get it. There were three of them. I eventually came to terms with whhat was going on. She was a dream guide type who was tryingg to "tame me." Not control me, just get me to calm the F&^k down and stop screwing all the DCs. I recieved about 8 years of intense dream skill training with them, and it was often not fun. It was often like military school. Eventually they started taking me to places where many entities would be. It was not so straight forward, as this takes place over a couple hundred dreams. Keep in mind, I am a highly educated adult, with a job, short hair, and no sci-fi fixation. Eventually I was granted access to a large dream city, and so on,,,,, For 25 years! I would actually get to know and have friendships and conflicts with the various entities. The rules they were teaching me never changed. The details always grew into a larger understanding of how things work. Seems like after a few hundred dreams lasting up to 45 minutes or more, spread out over 25 years, with the ability to detect them as different than dream stuff, I should just accept that it is true. So, that is why I believe. I will even throw in that I could be wrong. For me to be wrong, it would mean my subconcious hads played an amazingly elabrate practicle joke on me for over half my life.

[shadowofwind]

Sivason, I agree that it is possible to encounter other minds, but I think that your interpretation of such contact and the direction you took it is specific to you. I guess you would agree? If I had encountered the same entities, I think I probably would have made different assumptions and found different metaphors for what was shared, resulting in radically different kinds of dream images. And then those would have had a logic to them that would have suggested a direction of development different from the one you took. For example, your experience with martial arts training is reflected in your pattern of dreams. I'm not suggesting that the entities aren't really engaging with you, just that the forms they take and their apparent activities are fairly strongly qualified by your imagination. I think very many of the factual assertions that we make in this forum are connected to these personal interpretations, not fundamental truths from a reality that we all share. For example, WakingNomad says you own your inner world but not the dream plane. I think that the partitioning of experience into those two different categories, inner world and dream plane, is specific to one way of thinking about it, and only sort of applies to other people who don't think about it that way. As I see it, the statement is a partial tautology, choices about identity and ownership being already implicitly built into the thoughts of inner world and dream plane. For myself, I don't completely 'own' my inner world. Everybody else is in my inner world also, in my very core of my 'I', though I have some choice about what I express from that. To the extent that my 'inner world' is personal, my lucid dreaming is personal. But I can open up my world more to specific influences from other individuals, independent of whether I'm 'dreaming'. Whether or not I'm projecting a lucid image environment is almost as incidental to what I control as whether my eyes are open or closed. Your earlier post did not come across as unreasonably defensive to me by the way. I've been learning from these threads by the way. I tend to be frustrated by the slow pace of progress, but I'm definitely aware of more now than I was a week or two ago, small as the differences may be.