Thread: Michael Raduga's The Phase?

LOOOOOL!
it's ok! it is normal to not have LD every day...no matter how hard you try!
non-lucid dreams are vital for our healthy performance of our sub-conscious mind. if you manage to have LD every day, it will hurt you mentally and emotionally seriously.
even professional LDer have 3 to 5 LD per week and they intentionally allow their mind to have non-LD dreams....(like Erin Pavlina).
also i remember master Savison told me it is rare to have LD every day even after decades of practice.

so if in this method, it has told you to restrict your practices, then maybe it is because of the above issue...we can't fight our sub-conscious mind to stop it's normal performance in creating non-LD dreams...

also you may be habituated in this method. for example, every night you want to wake up spontaneously....nights after nights, finally your mind will tell you: ok...who cares this micro-awakenings?...i want to sleep...damn LD.....

so maybe these gaps between nights are because we should not be habituated to this method to allow it to keep working. (like SSILD and FILD which mostly works if we abandon them for a while, so they are new and important to our mind when we attempt them again).

No offense yaya, but what you just said sounds really ridiculous to me...

Originally Posted by yaya

non-lucid dreams are vital for our healthy performance of our sub-conscious mind. if you manage to have LD every day, it will hurt you mentally and emotionally seriously.

Dreams are just dreams, that's all. The fact that you are aware in them doesn't magically change them apart from the self awareness itself and control. There are plenty of people who LD daily and aren't "seriously hurt mentally and emotionally". It's actually rare for lucid dreaming to even make you tired, quite the opposite, I've heard people plenty of times saying how they wake up more refreshed and happy after having LDs. If having a lot of LDs makes makes you hurt emotionally and mentally, then there are probably other serious mental issues at hand and LDing shouldn't be attempted in the first place.

Besides, like I said, even if you try it every day, which takes like what, 5 minutes of wbtb and then WILD on command, it's likely that it won't work out every single day anyway, so there's that.

Originally Posted by yaya

also you may be habituated in this method. for example, every night you want to wake up spontaneously....nights after nights, finally your mind will tell you: ok...who cares this micro-awakenings?...i want to sleep...damn LD.....

That literally takes a few seconds, lol.

Whatever floats your boat man, if you don't like having lots of LDs, then don't. I'm just saying I know people who LD daily and they have no such serious issues you talk about.

indeed yaya may be right.
Lucid Dreams change from non lucid dreams, non only by the fact of being conscious but also because dopaminergic neurons and some brain parts like for example the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPC)don't really rest while lucid dreams while they do rest while common deams.
If we usually aren't lucid in dreams, it is because we are not supposed to, as theses kinds of big neurons, and theses important brain areas have to prepare themselves to the waking state.
So I don't find this as ridiculous as you do.
Lucid Dreaming is a kind of brain hacking, we have to know that.

And lucid dreams last how much? A few minutes at most? Out of at least 8 hours of sleep.
Even when I had very long and lucid dreams, I woke up more refreshed than normally.

WOW!!!! dear sister!
ok ... ok....you are right!

have sweet dreams!

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Alrightie. I don't know why he says to only do it 2-3 times per week, but I'll be damned if I'll listen xD This is too good to do only 2-3 times per week, especially considering there are days, like today for me, for example, when you accidentally mess it up. It would suck to lose an attempt if you have to few 'available' per week. From what I read, he doesn't mention anything about different circumstance so yeah, I guess even on vacation, only 2-3 times. Nope, not gonna do that sir, too good to not try it every day..

Raduga advises for beginners to limit attempts to 2-3 times per week due to psychological factors such as the possibility of mental and/or emotional exhaustion, although he goes on to say that experienced practitioners should have no problems doing it every day or whenever they please.

Originally Posted by VinceField

Raduga advises for beginners to limit attempts to 2-3 times per week due to psychological factors such as the possibility of mental and/or emotional exhaustion, although he goes on to say that experienced practitioners should have no problems doing it every day or whenever they please.

Oh, thanks for the explanation, I don't think I read that part.
*been experimenting with LDs/OBEs/AP for years* Woot, every day it is 8D Almost.. might fancy a break a day or two, now and then.

Hey Searcher

Raduga actually advises that forced falling asleep can be used as a technique in and of itself, and is most effective at the start of the cycle.

pg.223

In the case of movement, it is extremely helpful to begin practice with forced falling asleep.

pg.236

FORCED FALLING ASLEEP - MAXIMUM EFFECT
There is a trick technique for making most phase
entrances successful: forced falling asleep. It can be used
with the following situations and variations: as an
independent technique; when no other technique works; upon
extremely alert awakening; when awakening to physical
movement; in case of intense physical stimuli from one's
physical surroundings; when getting a poorly working
technique to yield results, and so on.

pg.237

Interesting Fact!
Some practitioners get forced falling
asleep so well that they use nothing else
besides alternating it with separation
techniques upon awakening.

I engaged in forced falling asleep by making the intention of falling asleep with an underlying intention to catch myself before I actually loose consciousness. Then I let go and "sink into myself" (or so it feels like) while momentarily relinquishing focus. I then bring myself back to a heightened level of awareness as the shift or phase takes place.

Sometimes this shifts me right out of body, and sometimes I have to use a follow up motion like rising or rolling to complete the shift.

Squeezing the brain is essentially using tactile imaging to feel the brain contract. There is a sense of shifting inwards into the head and usually gives rise to internal rushing sounds.

My success rate is fairly high. My failures are usually due to laziness and failure to follow through with the entire cycle. After 14+ years of successful phasing (OBE/Astral projection/Lucid dreaming), I'm not as passionate about the practice anymore. These days the experiences manifest naturally without having to make a conscious effort to induce them, although they are more infrequent due to my lack of interest and effort. I'm more focused on my daily spiritual practices in line with the Theravada Buddhist path of practice. Phasing is fun but tends not to yield the practical results that come from real spiritual work like purifying the mind, ridding the mind of the defilements that cause mental stress and suffering, and cultivating a higher form of happiness, unconditioned and independent of external conditions.

Hope I addressed your questions satisfactorily. Take care buddy.

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Hi VinceField.
Basically I agree with everything that you said
About forced falling asleep, Raduga suggests (later in the book when he discusses the indirect technique again) that it can boost success - not as a stand-alone movement. Can you describe how you do-feel it?
I imagine it's like feeling the drift - feeling carried away by the sleepiness - just let go.
Is that you are using for separation alone?
Also, I have heard of "squeezing the brain" before, but have difficulty imagining how that feels like. Can you describe this?
Perhaps I am asking you a lot, but could you also report about your success rate with this and how long you have been using it?
As for my use of the word visualization, it's - like Kaan and StephL suggested - used as a general term. Yes, I know that feeling is what makes the difference and I agree that we should better use words like tactile visualization, Sich movement vorstellen, or even Virtual Sensations.

Mimihigurashi, i suggest staying on topic - I will read your thread about Eckhat that I just spotted and continue this conversation there!
About Raduga's suggestion: only 2-3 attempts per week, I am also very curious - why is that necessary? If on is on vacation and can oversleep every day is it still 2-3 attempts per week?

FryingMan, congrats man!
Quite interesting experience!

Btw, I have read Robert Bruce's Astral dynamics and did all of his exercises but never got any results - contrary to Raduga's technique!

Unfortunately I have a lot of stress at the moment and got to bed only after 3 am yesterday, as said, I'll take my sweet long time for even starting it, but I have to say I love this thread and want to thank everybody for pointing out what they find important and what worked for them, and that it does!!
There are many threads with somebody coming along with a method, and people say - yeah, they are going to try it - and then nothing, or only what seems like a few transient excitement-over-new-approach successes.

Fryingman - congratulation!!
Sounds like hitting bullseye, only the dart fell out prematurely!
If you get this sorted only a little bit more and not get distracted by real life - well in, I'd say.

Originally Posted by Kaan

indeed yaya may be right.
Lucid Dreams change from non lucid dreams, non only by the fact of being conscious but also because dopaminergic neurons and some brain parts like for example the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPC)don't really rest while lucid dreams while they do rest while common deams.
If we usually aren't lucid in dreams, it is because we are not supposed to, as theses kinds of big neurons, and theses important brain areas have to prepare themselves to the waking state.
So I don't find this as ridiculous as you do.
Lucid Dreaming is a kind of brain hacking, we have to know that.

What do you mean with we are not supposed to? Neither evolution nor some supreme brain designer has given us a manual after all.
I could imagine and actually believe that LDing is a positively progressive way of using the thing. Animals dream as well, we have these nice extra brain regions for metacognition, thinking about thinking, and they help us with real life - so it only makes sense that we can also utilize it to enhance our benefits from dreaming, which I believe is there to practise for real life, besides for memory processing and maybe more.

Originally Posted by Kaan

as theses kinds of big neurons, and theses important brain areas have to prepare themselves to the waking state.

There's no scientific evidence backing that up, it's only some people's reckoning, "science" is still unsure what dreams are for, even sleep isn't fully explained in function.
And as has been said above, even if you'd have several LDs per night, you'll still have plenty of time for normal dreaming and it's maybe crucial specific functions.
But sure you're right, it's using stuff in dreams that normally isn't involved, but I don't believe that's any "worse" than being awake for these few minutes in the middle of the night for which one is usually able to LD.

Spoiler for Brain regions known to be involved in metacognition and lighting up on fMRI in LDs:

The human capacity of self-perception, self-reflection and consciousness development are among the unsolved mysteries of neuroscience.
“The general basic activity of the brain is similar in a normal dream and in a lucid dream,” says Michael Czisch, head of a research group at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry. “In a lucid state, however, the activity in certain areas of the cerebral cortex increases markedly within seconds. The involved areas of the cerebral cortex are the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, to which commonly the function of self-assessment is attributed, and the frontopolar regions, which are responsible for evaluating our own thoughts and feelings. The precuneus is also especially active, a part of the brain that has long been linked with self-perception.”

I also understood Raduga such, that he recommends to only do it for some days per week to prevent "will-fatigue".
As he says, it's meant to be done energetically, aggressively and not routinely, half-heartedly, without (general/WBTB) preparation - at least for beginners, who are unsure, if it will work for them, or after some fails. Having misses because of that could lead to a vicious cycle.

I didn't understand it as warning against too much LDing at all, just as a wise course of action not to dampen expectations and reduce the mental exertions, one is prepared to invest.



I like virtual sensation best when it comes to a description of the phenomenon, "sich vorstellen" involves German grammar and changes according to it, when used in different sentence-structures, it's a transive verb, too, with the object "sich" meaning "oneself", would be awkward to utilize in English, I'm afraid, but nice that you like it!

Virtually sensing something is not as readily usable as visualizing, but hey...

I don't want to go further in this off topic conversation about potential sides effects of too much Lucid dreaming (at the point that nearly all the REM would be used for LD which is not likely to happen to many people), the Hobson's book about how brain build dreams suggest that one of the goal of the Dream is to let some brain parts and some neurons off to let them work better when we need to: the waking life.
these areas are used for everything that doesn't work very well when we are in normal dream: self awareness, the ability to focus on a special task, the work memory and others important things.
he also explains that if a large part of the neurons can work 24/7, the other neurons which I am talking about do need to stop working to maximize their potential for the waking life.
So if we are not lucid in the main part of our dreams, it is because theses parts are off, and if they are off, it is because they have to be off for a moment within REM sleep to help us for the waking life.
So I suppose that someone who is able to LD very long time every night will have concentration, memory, and other issues in his waking life.

but this is just a off topic stuff;
I don't think Raduga is talking about this point when he recommend not to do it too often.

Yeah - off topic, I'm just saying this needing of recovery time for metacognition is an opinion and not, or at least not yet backed up by sound evidence. I agree with you, though, to completely transform all your dreaming-time into lucidity sounds potentially harmful, intuitively and for whichever reasons. What I want to say is that that's not going to happen even with several LDs per night like some people say they have.

Back to Raduga, soz!

Question for you, Vince: is there any reason why an experienced practitioner cannot combine these techniques with other techniques (such as MILD). For example, I wake up after 6 hours, practice MILD, and fall asleep. Wake up, separate. If fail to separate, practice MILD, and repeat the process.

Just don't see the point of missing a chance for DILDs just to avoid combining techniques, as the book seems to suggest.

VinceField, thanks a lot for the descriptions and the all info - that was more than adequate!
I also respect your present attitude towards phase experiences and wish you a fulfilling practice!
Also, sorry for posting without first looking back at the text: you are right, he does recommend this as a standalone technique - I forgot that, and it is sth I must definitely try!

About the off-topic debate, I think that it can be done in another thread like this, cause we won't easily reach an agreement: On the one hand there are people having constantly more than one lucids per night - and yogis can stay conscious the entire night - with no ill effects but on the other hand natural lucid dreamers sometimes report fatigue from the inability to stop lucidity. So, the debate is bound to be a tough one...

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Question for you, Vince: is there any reason why an experienced practitioner cannot combine these techniques with other techniques (such as MILD). For example, I wake up after 6 hours, practice MILD, and fall asleep. Wake up, separate. If fail to separate, practice MILD, and repeat the process.

Just don't see the point of missing a chance for DILDs just to avoid combining techniques, as the book seems to suggest.

The best way to find out is to experiment and see what works. I see no reason why a person can't attempt different methods during the same period of sleep, although it helps to be comfortable and experienced with the methods being used. I have combined techniques for maximized results many times, especially during periods of strong motivation.

i like the idea of Threecat!

but instead, i will try SSILD with this f.... technique to see how it works. i am sorry but as i can't remember the name of the technique, i call it f... technique.
as SSILD gives a lot of FA, then maybe by combing that with the first part of this f... method (trying to roll out) is gonna work well!

so see you guys tomorrow!

ok good morning!

i have done what i have told you and here is the result:

i did WBTB and then i slept in another room...then i woke up spontaneously for 5 times!!!!!
but every time i woke up, i moved by body ....WTFFFFFFFFFFFF..... only the last time i could stick my butt to the ground and then i imagined i roll out...i had a semi-OBE then i lost my consciousness.

so not bad.....not bad at all! it was great for the first serious try in this year.

Originally Posted by yaya

ok good morning!

i have done what i have told you and here is the result:

i did WBTB and then i slept in another room...then i woke up spontaneously for 5 times!!!!!
but every time i woke up, i moved by body ....WTFFFFFFFFFFFF..... only the last time i could stick my butt to the ground and then i imagined i roll out...i had a semi-OBE then i lost my consciousness.

so not bad.....not bad at all! it was great for the first serious try in this year.

Yay, finally, congrats!! See, it works when you do it right xP Almost always..

Woohoo, congrats, yaya! Keep it up!

I had another succes this night, but I don't remember how I became lucid, and I forgot a big part of my LD and other dreams.
I flew above a town on the night, tried to meet a challenge from my french LD forum which consist in being a kind of Santa claus giving a christmas present to many children.
I looked for a big enough chimney on the roofs and eventually found one,so I landed on the roof and tried to make appear a Gift-wrapped but it didn't work.
After that I flew very high, seeing stars above me, and town lights under me shrinking as I was going higher, and I kinda changed of dimension.
I forgot the following, and had several times lucid moments when I was dreaming that I was in a bed trying to WILD.

This attempt was combined with my 6th try of Galantamine, and I added few other supplements so I dnn't think my LD report is 100% related to raduga's technique, as I nearly always try it with the help of supplements.
within my 6 attempts with supplements, I had 4 successes so far.

I also gave it a shot this morning. Woke up about 2, used restroom, can't remember if I drank the water or not. Returned to bed with the intent to remember awakenings. Recall waking about 6 or 7 times between then and 5. Some if these were FAs, and I forgot to perform the technique. Also, became confused about what time it was. However, glad to see I am checking my watch in dreams. A couple of semi-lucids near the beginning. When I did perform the technique, it was on a very alert awakening, and the rollout failed, as well as the cycles. Will review the technique and try again next week, I think. Did not combine with MILD.

How often are you guys attempting the technique? I decided to stop being stubborn and listen to the author and do it 3-4 times per week.

I am going to follow his advice, but only because I'm going all out with MILD on the weekends. Have you had further success with the the technique, mimi?

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

I am going to follow his advice, but only because I'm going all out with MILD on the weekends. Have you had further success with the the technique, mimi?

I see. Let us know how it goes.
Well, so far I made 7 attempts. But only 5 of those I count as proper, because the other 2 I accidentally screwed up, was entirely my fault. Out of those 5 I had 2 failures and 3 successes. One time I failed because I was extremely tired for some reason, and this morning I noticed a few micro awakenings but every time I forgot not to move. So yeah, I don't think it's that bad, considering the fact that I stubbornly did it every day, despite the author insisting not to. I'm curious to see how it will go when performed 3-4 times per week only.

Awesome! Looking forward to hearing about your attempts.