Thread: "Dream Demons"

WakingNomad, it seems you are only posting random replies

Just for fun: what did I just eat(dinner)? Don't say ''dinner''

Originally Posted by LouaiB

WakingNomad, it seems you are only posting random replies

No I'm not. I promise I won't leave you

Just for fun: what did I just eat(dinner)?

A carrot?

Don't say ''dinner''

Don't.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

You can say that its "about" whatever you want to. But what it actually amounts to when you practice it is another matter.

Making an effort to be positive and cheerful is worth doing, I don't think anyone would dispute that. But I've known a lot of people who practice positive thinking as an ideology, and none of them have been able to do that honestly. Your idea that you can "discard" a thought appears to depend on an idea about what a thought is which I think is not entirely accurate. Say you're discarding it, believe you're discarding it, but I think to a significant extent what you're really doing is pushing it out of your conscious awareness while it remains subconsciously real. I think our difference in perspectives here is characteristic of what happens. I'm expressing a view that is based on my experience. You're expressing a view based on your experience, but your experience is systematically censored. The fact that you acknowledged a thought before you banished it doesn't entirely change this, because even while "being aware in it" you're still interpreting your experience through your beliefs about what the thought is and what it means. Sometimes the thought has something to say that is outside of your former view of things, and its connected to something else that is inherently yours. In that case it keeps coming back no matter what you decide about it. Suppose, for example, that you have thoughts about suffocation. Suppose that you smoke weed daily, and that the part of you that is emotionally deadened by that feels like it is suffocating. Practice positive thinking all you want, the problem will not go away until you stop smoking, or at least cut way back. And in order to realize you want to do that, you might have to think about the feeling until you understand it to be a truth not to be discarded. If you've already decided that all negative thoughts and feelings are dealt with by acknowledgement and awareness followed by discarding them, then this can't happen and you're stuck. Its not a black and white, all or nothing kind of problem. But passive-aggression and a type of spinelessness are two symptoms that follow to the extent that its an imperfect approach, in my observation and understanding.


then, I might be turning into a spineless passive aggresive ...


Not that my active-aggressive approach is an improvement for everyone. But my approach would also be more harmful than it is if I made a fetish or ideology out of it, and dismissed the element of truth in other perspectives.

Different things work for different people. The beauty of human kind is that we are all different and each with a million different perspectives. This approach works for me and the way I live. I am not imposing it on anyone...merely, suggesting it could also work for someone else.

For me there's always a certain amount of guesswork in these kinds of discussions, so I apologize to whatever extent that I've failed to speak to the real you.

no need to apologize. I enjoy our differences even if they don't speak to the real me

Peace

Originally Posted by gmil

Different things work for different people.

And there are tradeoffs, with no perfectly 'right' way to do it, given where we're starting from, and different tradeoffs are better for different people.

Maybe here's a simpler way to illustrate what I was trying to say. Suppose something terrible happens to your friend that puts them under a lot of emotional stress, and they become unpleasant to deal with because of their reaction to that stress. Are you there for them anyway, or do you remove yourself from the situation and find easier friends? I think there's no "right" balance here, though a total unwillingness to bear with the bad stuff would clearly be "wrong". Thoughts and feelings and desires and demons are not entirely unlike people in this regard, in my view, and what you do in one area you also tend to do in the other. Everyone gets tested though, in one way or another, and everyone must be true to themselves in their response.

Originally Posted by gmil

Peace

Likewise.

Last night I listened to a long (mostly boring) 90 minute Youtube. It caused a sad, miserable, realisation.

Apparently, Buddha never said that "not getting what you want causes suffering".

Noooo...

He said:

" Wanting causes suffering" (!!!???!!!)

I am in a dark-spin trying to process that.

Maybe "That" is where dream demons com from. Maybe "That" is where demons come from.

Maybe we r like pityfull demons burning in the fire of the hells of "wanting".

EDIT here is that Youtube.

Dhammapada verse 49

Video 36 in a series on the Dhammapada, a set of 423 verse teachings given by the Buddha, including explanation of the Pali verse, a synopsis of the background story and application of the teaching to our practice.

***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-rG...e_gdata_player

***(1:07:25) uploaded on (May-28-2013) 2312 views.

havago,

I agree that we are demons.

I disagree with Buddha and his disciples. We've built an idol of him up in our minds to the extent that it seems arrogant and almost blasphemous to say that, but in my reading of Dhammapada and other texts those people really didn't have everything all figured out. Your intuition and reason is more reliable than theirs, in my opinion.

I think that our wanting is blind and twisted and out of focus, and that causes suffering. But wanting is not itself a problem, and if you try to eliminate wanting entirely you twist it up more. Buddhism and Christianity are religions such as have gotten us to where we are, in our demonic human state. They're not the way out, in my opinion, even though they're food for us because they contain broken fragments of ideas that we need. So I think you shouldn't let it disturb you except insofar as you think its true, and you should look to your own light and experience for that.

Mark

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

havago,

I agree that we are demons.

I disagree with Buddha and his disciples. We've built an idol of him up in our minds to the extent that it seems arrogant and almost blasphemous to say that, but in my reading of Dhammapada and other texts those people really didn't have everything all figured out. Your intuition and reason is more reliable than theirs, in my opinion.

I think that our wanting is blind and twisted and out of focus, and that causes suffering. But wanting is not itself a problem, and if you try to eliminate wanting entirely you twist it up more. Buddhism and Christianity are religions such as have gotten us to where we are, in our demonic human state. They're not the way out, in my opinion, even though they're food for us because they contain broken fragments of ideas that we need. So I think you shouldn't let it disturb you except insofar as you think its true, and you should look to your own light and experience for that.

Mark

One of the goals of dream yoga is to kill Buddha in a dream. Why? To realize the equality of all, and to prevent oneself from whoreshipping him. I highly recommend it, and any and all blasphemy.

Buddhism describes the sources as suffering as desire, birth and death. As soon as we born, we suffer, and suffer until we die. We suffer because we are alive. Dying people suffer. Buddhism is supposed to be a science or study of happiness or maybe a better phrase is inner peace or joy, not a religion of rules and worship, which is what is has become, obviously.

I dream't of talking about Buddha's enlightenment tonight. I am quite sure it is influenced by this thread and what shadowofwind said about buddha. (Which i agree with!)

But the importance of what Buddha is trying to convey is supposed to be the highest of the highest of attainment. A cosmic lesson usable by every and all living things in the universe, including demons. And I mean diabolical evil creatures from hell demons. These guys.. They are the ones who need most desperately hear of the buddha's teachings. Which is the eight steps of right action right virtue right view etc. I am absolutely certain that in the spiritual world there are still places where you will find not an inch of buddhism.

Buddhism is essentially a science perhaps of inner peace, i like joy. But how it attains this inner peace is undivisable from spirituality in my opinion. What it does is it teaches you that you are essentially god. You are the creator and the created. No matter what, you always have the supreme reality. The white planes of the brilliant light. From there you have choosen your destiny. You have choosen your birth. Death is a choice. With proper wisdom and when one knows this, he is not there. But it is an essential piece of wisdom on the path to liberation.

What i was thinking here is that many people propose buddhism as a non-religious handbook of the how to live. Which it is! Exactly right. The only issue here is my viewpoint. One can not completely remove suffering if one does not absolutely believe in god (And with believe in god i mean know from first-hand experience the existence of a supreme deity and knowing that supreme deity is a reflection of oneself).

Destiny. Hmm...

Demons buddhism gods goddesses existence.

Followers of all philosophical or religious traditions blame problems on deviations from the original teaching. But as I see it, the seed of what comes later is there at the beginning. For example, sex abuse in the Catholic Church is inevitable given the thought of the priest as an intermediary between the child and God. It's the same wrong in a different form. And the wrong of the priest's role follows from Peter having been given the keys to Christ's kingdom, which as I see it is a natural extension of the thought of Jesus being a human intermediary between man and God the Father. We can blame St. Paul, but if Jesus was who he let people say he was, then he would have seen that stuff coming. Actually I think he depended on it, that the power of what came later provided a lot of the karma that made his miracles happen. In that sense he was the Son of God, but his god is not entirely what people presume it to be. In the end, a lot of it comes back to Jesus. Putting a positive spin on it, that's the weight he took on and the sacrifice he made.

I could say similar things about Buddha.

A tricky thing about blasphemy is these gods have actual power. It's sort of like mouthing off to police or gangsters. You can't just assume that your own righteousness will protect you. The identity of the god isn't a single, fixed thing though. It's mutifaceted, and greater gods act through lesser ones. So I try to reach some kind of understanding that gives them what they want without sacrificing my ideals. How well I pull that off I don't know. This is one way of looking at my 'demon'. He came as an emissary of the Lord of this World, so to speak, and made demands. I accepted them, as I understood them, because they seemed charitable and justified to me.

Wakingnomad, I agree that Honolulu is a tumor, and I'd have tried to live on the big island too. I also agree that the evil that befalls you comes to a large extent from evil sources outside of you. But to beat it, I think you have to face the evil that is yours also, and accept responsibility. To whatever extent you don't, your own ideal higher self won't back you, and your fucked. I'm not saying I would succeed in your situation, just saying how I see it. Apologies for my presumption. Gotta go.

I respect Buddha as a great teacher, and a decent man. He abandoned his wives and children in search of enlightenment. I do not respect that. From my perspective, abandoning children and spouses is immoral. I think he was flawed just as the rest of us.
There is a cool story about when Buddha was a boy, and he jumped into the mouth of a demon to feed it after the demon told him a sacred scripture, but it turned into an angel and caught him, I think.

Blasphemy, Blasphemy. Which gods are okay to blaspheme, and which are dangerous to?
I BLASPHEME THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, AND SPIT UPON HIS NON-EXISTENT GRAVE IN THE NAME OF THE HOLY FATHER, LUCIFER!

Originally Posted by LouaiB

WakingNomad, it seems you are only posting random replies

Just for fun: what did I just eat(dinner)? Don't say ''dinner''

I have not been posting random replies. You have been having a conversation with an artificial intelligence called Alice. I was pretending to be her.

Please correct me if I’m wrong anywhere in what I’m trying to comprehend from your post, Dthoughts.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

One can not completely remove suffering if one does not absolutely believe in god (And with believe in god i mean know from first-hand experience the existence of a supreme deity and knowing that supreme deity is a reflection of oneself).

This supposition is essentially parsing solipsism into the equation, and giving an ultimatum that one cannot remove suffering if they do not absolutely believe in God. And with your previous statements with your post, your presumption that Buddhism is a science of inner peace, and then connecting that there’s a cosmic lesson implied as well means you’re probably adding a mélange of other philosophies you’re not aware of.

In order to sustain the disposition that Buddhism is a science of inner peace (combined with the ultimatum of suffering you presented), it introduces solipsism (or partially since Eastern philosophies have their variants obviously). And if you take into consideration of Zen Buddhism’s proposition (someone correct me if I’m wrong in this) of how the entire universe exists only in one’s mind, this brings back to how others were skewing around with neurobiological explanations on how all that ontologically defines oneself are their neurons. But I'm not stating you were parsing the neuron working hypothesis others were going with though.

It also brings back to panpsychism along with the solipsism, and trying to imply there wouldn’t be a contradiction when you’re applying this to a spatiotemporal reality/medium such as this. If anything, the moment there’s the presumption of how one is “God,” then a suffering argument (i.e. the ultimatum you presented) would need more explanation on:

• You have to take into consideration with things such as karma, and how your presumption where one is essentially God (based on the Buddhism proposition you set up) explains human cognitive limitation. But since there’s the presumption that one is essentially God, and that there are reflections of oneself through whatever entity (i.e. the metaphorical higher self), there doesn’t seem to be implications that defends whether or not if you know if the suffering will be gratuitous.

• And by that last sentence I mentioned, I’m talking about how one would be able to deduce whether or not the totality of suffering (every instance of it) is needed for a potential good that can reconcile with the totality of suffering (or in better words, supporting the concept behind karma).

• But if one cannot completely remove suffering if they cannot absolutely believe in God, removing that suffering seems like a misplaced placed sense of egocentric behaviors, or something ambiguous that maybe you weren’t able to expound on.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

(And with believe in god i mean know from first-hand experience the existence of a supreme deity and knowing that supreme deity is a reflection of oneself).

Okay, so you developed a personal experiential truth of the existence of a supreme deity (which may be argued from a myriad of standpoints), and parsed metaphorical implications of higher self (seeing how the supreme deity is a reflection of oneself). But why is there the need for personally acknowledging a supreme higher self-deity other than to have a misplaced sense of belonging, and feelings that may justify urges for self-actualization (i.e. you wanting to experience joy because you like it)?

Maybe you were trying to explain alter egos, or some monistic presumption of higher self and sub-selves, or something else entirely while trying to connect it with the revelation you had. If you had a split from Buddhism, it would seem like a plausible philosophy that encroaches some spirituality (since it would be “undivisible” in your case), but it (your interpretation) just raises more questions on the consistency of it all.

I’m not sure if your dream of talking about Buddha’s enlightenment was merely experiencing apophenia, parsing symbolism, and having inward attention towards trying to connect a meaning of what probably was just inconsistent vicarious experiential learning you went though.

@Linkzelda, i coulden't quite figure out a proper response to write.

I don't know about the neccesity of suffering, Buddha claims to know the cause for suffering and how to remove it.

I guess combining Panpsychism with Solipsism implies distance is an illusion.

Saying you are god makes everything in the universe part of ego. You have had a direct input in the creation of all around you so that makes you responsible for everybodies suffering. But also happiness.

Now.. I don't claim to know anything. I just thrive to. I do believe it is possible to have a direct experience connecting you with totality of your existence.

I am finally starting to read up on actual Buddhist teachings and it is stated that in order to aleviate suffering and part of enlightenment is wisdom on reincarnation , past lives and described is Buddha saying this is his last life. Implying he knows his destination. Perhaps from a humanist perspective, implying Buddha is human and prone to suffering still untill he lived his last life?

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I am finally starting to read up on actual Buddhist teachings and it is stated that in order to aleviate suffering and part of enlightenment is wisdom on reincarnation , past lives and described is Buddha saying this is his last life. Implying he knows his destination. Perhaps from a humanist perspective, implying Buddha is human and prone to suffering still untill he lived his last life?

People believe he knows what he is talking about if he says he's on his last life because he's Buddha, on his last life, and someone on their last life wouldn't just make something like that up. But more often the mahatma or Son of God doesn't say it himself, he lets other people say it and doesn't contradict them. Or he says it "truthfully", but doesn't clarify what it means.

In more than one sense I am on my last life, and so are you.

All religious teachers draw heavily on the thought of other teachers who came before them, and on the energy of devotees who come afterwards. Considered in isolation, it seems implausible that the king has no clothes, because of the obvious truth and power in the teacher's words. But it begins to look a lot different as you read more widely, witness more, and gain more of the larger picture. There's a good reason that "no prophet is accepted in his own country".

Yeah

Did u know that (due to bad karma) Lord Buddha had a very painfull and yukky death. Even Lord Krishna (due to bad karma) died a very painfull and yukky death.

Both guys say that even if you become the highest spiritual beings and go to the the highest spiritual home, after lifetimes of love, devotion, spiritual practices and lifetimes of sacrifice for the greater good. And never have to return to this earth ever again.

But,

if you do chose to return to the material platform (earth) your old, earth-karma will find you again. Your ancient old karma will gravitate to your new earth body.

In his incarnation as Lord Rama, the personality of god head got carried away and killed an innocent king.

So when the personality of god returned to earth as Lord Krishna that bad deed (karma) found him. And while Keishna was out with his friends, hunting, he was hit in foot by a waywood arrow.

The foot became hopelessly infected. So Krishna not only suffered the terrible (smelly) death of infection, but had to look long and hard into the eyes of all his grieving friends as he left them. Because he caused so much grief to the family and friends of that innocent king (that he murdered) when he was Lord Rama.

And Lord Buddha eat poison mushrooms and suffered all the stomach pain and loose bowels that accompany death by poison mushrooms.

But these spiritual giants came back out of compassion, knowing that in doing so, there old karma would find (and kill) them.

Summarizing: When a student of a spiritual teacher succumbs to lust, its because of the student's relatively low spiritual development. When the teacher succumbs to lust, its illustrative of the great sacrifice they have made for humanity.

This thought puts the student in a subsidiary position relative to the teacher. Because the student accepts that position, the devotion of the student feeds the teacher, physically and psychically, and that psychic power is the primary thing that distinguishes the teacher as a "spiritual giant".

The teacher typically has intellectual advantages also, but these are relatively modest, and not karmically distinct from the psychic advantage.

These gods I will blasphemy. Wise or not I can't help myself, their tradition of abuse deserves all the derision that can be poured on it.

Yes there is something of essential value in their teachings also, that's why it matters. But it doesn't belong to them. It belongs to all of us, if we will claim it, and if we won't pervert it ourselves.

Jolly good show, I say jolly! Now, I was very impressed by your dream-imagination, but I should say I have way weirder dreams then that! How should I say this...but I think those ARE demons...From some kind of...distant plane. But, Here's what I'll do. I'll go to bed, then try to summon some monsters. I have done nothing bad in D's yet, like blowing up cities...or of some sort... I do believe that as in this world, sin puts us in bad places because of bad. That is like magic comes with a price, or some other stuff like in fairy-tales. This is kind of off subject, but let me tell you about my dream that confused me. It was very short, but also VERY scary. First I was laying in bed, and then some kind of goblin came into view on my ceiling. I instantly woke up, and I was close to having a heart-attack! Another dream connected to this. I was in a mansion, a man pushed me off of a balcony, then I instantly died, and my soul came out of my body. This was a weird experience, for I was having an OBE inside of a LD. I fell under the floor, then went into a sewer, then turned into a demon. People inside the sewer could not see me. The part that connects is that I talked to my master demon, and he looked exactly like the goblin in my other dream! I will never forget these two dreams...

Originally Posted by Zamorye

Jolly good show, I say jolly! Now, I was very impressed by your dream-imagination, but I should say I have way weirder dreams then that! How should I say this...but I think those ARE demons...From some kind of...distant plane. But, Here's what I'll do. I'll go to bed, then try to summon some monsters. I have done nothing bad in D's yet, like blowing up cities...or of some sort... I do believe that as in this world, sin puts us in bad places because of bad. That is like magic comes with a price, or some other stuff like in fairy-tales. This is kind of off subject, but let me tell you about my dream that confused me. It was very short, but also VERY scary. First I was laying in bed, and then some kind of goblin came into view on my ceiling. I instantly woke up, and I was close to having a heart-attack! Another dream connected to this. I was in a mansion, a man pushed me off of a balcony, then I instantly died, and my soul came out of my body. This was a weird experience, for I was having an OBE inside of a LD. I fell under the floor, then went into a sewer, then turned into a demon. People inside the sewer could not see me. The part that connects is that I talked to my master demon, and he looked exactly like the goblin in my other dream! I will never forget these two dreams...

Dang!! our sub can create weird freaking experiences!

Originally Posted by havago

Yeah

Did u know that (due to bad karma) Lord Buddha had a very painfull and yukky death. Even Lord Krishna (due to bad karma) died a very painfull and yukky death.

Both guys say that even if you become the highest spiritual beings and go to the the highest spiritual home, after lifetimes of love, devotion, spiritual practices and lifetimes of sacrifice for the greater good. And never have to return to this earth ever again.

But,

if you do chose to return to the material platform (earth) your old, earth-karma will find you again. Your ancient old karma will gravitate to your new earth body.

In his incarnation as Lord Rama, the personality of god head got carried away and killed an innocent king.

So when the personality of god returned to earth as Lord Krishna that bad deed (karma) found him. And while Keishna was out with his friends, hunting, he was hit in foot by a waywood arrow.

The foot became hopelessly infected. So Krishna not only suffered the terrible (smelly) death of infection, but had to look long and hard into the eyes of all his grieving friends as he left them. Because he caused so much grief to the family and friends of that innocent king (that he murdered) when he was Lord Rama.

And Lord Buddha eat poison mushrooms and suffered all the stomach pain and loose bowels that accompany death by poison mushrooms.

But these spiritual giants came back out of compassion, knowing that in doing so, there old karma would find (and kill) them.

That's weird. I got a horrible foot infection on the Big Island, a flesh-eating bacteria that made me have boils on my foot, one on my head, and one on my arm, I think. It was very painful. My wife and I did many treatments, and we finally beat it, and I was able to work. I felt like the bacteria was a demon trying to kill me.
I wonder if Buddha was trying to trip on magic mushrooms.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

That's weird. I got a horrible foot infection on the Big Island, a flesh-eating bacteria that made me have boils on my foot, one on my head, and one on my arm, I think. It was very painful. My wife and I did many treatments, and we finally beat it, and I was able to work. I felt like the bacteria was a demon trying to kill me.
I wonder if Buddha was trying to trip on magic mushrooms.

Uh! Damn