Thread: DCs == Non-lucid Dreamers?

Meh... I don't think so. But who knows?

Originally Posted by Avian

So what if all your DCs are just non-lucid dreamers? I have, in fact, talked to someone who seemed very lucid and conscious in a non-lucid dream. What if that was a lucid dreamer?

Hmm... a subject like this usually has a dozen posts by now, with a "Yes it is!" "No it isn't" dream-sharing debate at full rant. Quiet times, I guess!

Though I've wondered often about this question, even aloud on these forums, that wondering has always been about some of the DC's, and certainly not all of them. And my wondering, along with inquiries to the DC's, usually wound up here: DC's, no matter how impressive, are definitely just constructs manufactured by my dreaming mind... or maybe someone else's, but they are still "just" DC's. Regardless, though, I think that any "visits" from other dreamers, whether accidental or on purpose, would occur in just one or two of your DC's, and certainly never in all of them. And even then, they would still be "just" DC's: remember that even your own dream body is a DC; even if they are from other dreamer's minds, the DC's you are meeting are just constructs or avatars built by those people, and not those people themselves. I think the distinction matters.

The unconscious is an extremely complex and powerful place, and is more than able to produce DC's that seem intelligent, unfamiliar, and with behavior patterns that line up directly with your expectations (even if you did not realizing you were expecting to talk to a lucid dreamer). Don't underestimate its power, unless you always want to be surprised by it (which is cool too, I suppose).

That said, I could be wrong, and you could be experiencing a visit from a skilled LD'er trying to get in touch with you. I'm all for that, too, but unfortunately you cannot prove that that's what's happening until something in waking life happens to verify the visit (i.e., a text from the visitor on your waking-life phone). Though it's fun to imagine that's the case, keep in mind that it is also fun to consider that your unconscious has the chops to build DC's that are that impressive, and that strange.

This is easily the most wishy-washy post I've made in a while... I think I'll stop. Hopefully the dream-sharing brigade will be on to entertain soon....

Is there a dream-sharing brigade? Hopefully most people are open enough to the extent that they don't completely rule something out, just because they don't believe it.

Anyway, I wanted to suggest that if a DC is made from another mind than your own, then it seems plausible that you cannot change that DC to the same level as you would be able to change one of your own making. This should particularly apply to behavioural patterns.

Maybe a "DC-reality check" could be deviced, in order to test a DC for its probable origins. For example, can you make the DC change behavior dramatically, just by expecting it?

^^ Not a bad idea, but I think it's possible that your mind might produce a DC you cannot change; perhaps to satisfy some other, more deeply submerged expectations.

Still, just doing some sort of test or attempt at control might bring the "operator" of the target DC to attention, if that operator is someone other than you, and then things might get very interesting. Also, a test like that would be great dream-control practice, so probably worth the effort regardless.

As an aside, Voldmer, if you read my post again, you might notice I wasn't completely -- or even partially -- ruling anything out; quite the contrary... not sure where you got that from. The dream-sharing brigade bit was a just some fun, BTW.

Originally Posted by Sageous

As an aside, Voldmer, if you read my post again, you might notice I wasn't completely -- or even partially -- ruling anything out; quite the contrary... not sure where you got that from. The dream-sharing brigade bit was a just some fun, BTW.

You misunderstood me, but that was probably because of how I wrote it. I am fully aware that you are open to the idea of dream sharing (you virtually stated it directly in your post). What I meant was that having been a spectator/participant in some of the debates about dream sharing, I think the pro-dream sharing crowd tends to be open enough not to rule out the possibility that dreams cannot be shared.

But maybe I have only been reading what I wanted to read in those debates, rather than what was actually written.

I have the impression, that most people of a beyonder persuasion might come to be dissuaded of this or that specific phenomenon's reality, but they don't give the impression, usually, as if they were honestly open to the possibility of a fully "materialistic" world. Sageous as a honourable exception, you tend to be pretty open-minded as well, Voldmer, but that's rather not the classical tenor, at least that's how it reads to me.
No need to say what I think on the matter of DCs, I suppose.

Debate is not in it's peak season on here lately, though, I don't expect much in terms of brigades and barrages and drama and misunderstanding and so forth, but also no interesting civilized and mutually beneficial debate, rather nothing much at all, but have fun, if such materializes.

I've wondered this with some of the DCs I've encountered before. They act zombie-like or otherwise not very sane, until I tell them it's a dream. Then suddenly they act like a normal person and can tell me all kind of things about who they are. A few times I have asked them for their contact information. So I ask for a skype/aim/whatever name, and then when I wake, I add the name to see if it every exists or comes online. So far, no takers, sadly. But I think it would be amazing on the off chance that I can say to a total stranger that we met in a dream and really freak them out. Anyway yeah, if you're lucid in the dream, you're welcome to try my little experiment too.

None of you have considered this: my very post is assuming that shared dreaming exists, so what if there is a single dream world everyone goes to? It is like a giant ocean of mental energy, or thought. When you are close to a DC (which is actually an unconscious dreamer) your mind affects their dream. So their behavior will change to make it seem like they are a construct. Your dream "plot" and the dreamscape is just the collective thoughts/mental energy of the area around you. Of course lucid dreamers would affect the dream world more because they are focused.

This is just a cool idea I had, however far-fetched it seems.

Originally Posted by Naiya

I've wondered this with some of the DCs I've encountered before. They act zombie-like or otherwise not very sane, until I tell them it's a dream. Then suddenly they act like a normal person and can tell me all kind of things about who they are. A few times I have asked them for their contact information. So I ask for a skype/aim/whatever name, and then when I wake, I add the name to see if it every exists or comes online. So far, no takers, sadly. But I think it would be amazing on the off chance that I can say to a total stranger that we met in a dream and really freak them out. Anyway yeah, if you're lucid in the dream, you're welcome to try my little experiment too.

My zombies are not going more aware even if I try make them conscious of surrounding- but I do that mainly while out of body, so there can be marked difference... Maybe it is nearly impossible to wake someone while in astral... A few times I tried it also in lucid dreams and also there is hard to make someone conscious. Their comprehension seems to drift away fast. I don't have proof of shared dreaming yet, there is possibility that DCs could be figment of imagination. I have only one weak proof of sharing OBE- it was not exact. It could be coincidence that my brother has nearly the same experience (we talked briefly when I met him there, but I left him shortly after encounter for other goals).

Originally Posted by Sageous

Hmm... a subject like this usually has a dozen posts by now, with a "Yes it is!" "No it isn't" dream-sharing debate at full rant. Quiet times, I guess!

Though I've wondered often about this question, even aloud on these forums, that wondering has always been about some of the DC's, and certainly not all of them. And my wondering, along with inquiries to the DC's, usually wound up here: DC's, no matter how impressive, are definitely just constructs manufactured by my dreaming mind... or maybe someone else's, but they are still "just" DC's. Regardless, though, I think that any "visits" from other dreamers, whether accidental or on purpose, would occur in just one or two of your DC's, and certainly never in all of them. And even then, they would still be "just" DC's: remember that even your own dream body is a DC; even if they are from other dreamer's minds, the DC's you are meeting are just constructs or avatars built by those people, and not those people themselves. I think the distinction matters.

The unconscious is an extremely complex and powerful place, and is more than able to produce DC's that seem intelligent, unfamiliar, and with behavior patterns that line up directly with your expectations (even if you did not realizing you were expecting to talk to a lucid dreamer). Don't underestimate its power, unless you always want to be surprised by it (which is cool too, I suppose).

That said, I could be wrong, and you could be experiencing a visit from a skilled LD'er trying to get in touch with you. I'm all for that, too, but unfortunately you cannot prove that that's what's happening until something in waking life happens to verify the visit (i.e., a text from the visitor on your waking-life phone). Though it's fun to imagine that's the case, keep in mind that it is also fun to consider that your unconscious has the chops to build DC's that are that impressive, and that strange.

This is easily the most wishy-washy post I've made in a while... I think I'll stop. Hopefully the dream-sharing brigade will be on to entertain soon....

So they are just like a vessel?

Originally Posted by SinisterDezz

So they are just like a vessel?

No, DC's are not vessels, I think. Though I suppose they could actually be like vessels, given that they are basically projections of vessels (aka, avatars). But that might add an unneeded, possibly confusing, layer to the imagery. I would go more with DC's being just like a projection.

Vessels are constructs meant to contain something. DC's represent or reflect people; they do not contain them. This is true even for your own dream body, since your dream body is simply a facet of the greater projection being produced by your dreaming mind (your dream world), and really does not contain "You" in any real sense. Indeed, while lucid, it can often be helpful and liberating to remember that you are not inside your dream body, but that your dream body is actually "inside" you.

I think this would also be true if you were visiting someone else's dream, or vice-versa. The visitor's DC is just a projection, or shadow (if you're into Plato) of the visitor, and not the visitor herself.... just as you are literally not "inside" your own dream body, a dream-sharing visitor does not reside inside the avatar she sent to represent her (which, BTW, might not look anything like what she projected, given that it must also be filtered by your dreaming mind and your own perception). This I think is one of the difficulties inherent in shared-dreaming, in that you must work through these layers of projected DC in order to communicate with another dreamer.

It's hard to claim anything when everyone's DC experiences are different. I've heard some people say that DCs act like they're crazy when they become lucid and try to tell the DCs they are dreaming. Personally, in my LDs all my DCs seem to accept anything I do or say with no strong reactions no matter how crazy. They also (rather disappointingly) often behave like chatterbots that give incoherent or irrelevant replies when I ask them questions.