Why doesn't our subconscious want us to realise we are dreaming?

[intuitionlink2]

I've wondered why we don't lucid dream every night? i always read posts by people saying how their dream characters ignore them, refuse to admit that the person dreaming is dreaming, try to convince the dreamer they are awake and they are in reality, and how each dream character/ projection is suppose to be your subconscious or an aspect of it. my point is, what's your opinion on this? do you think its possible that our subconscious knows/fears that when we are lucid dreaming that we may be able to alter/change it? and so in an act of self preservation it prevents us (during normal dreaming) from realising we are dreaming. lets say for simplicity sake your subconscious in both dream and waking life stems from this statement "i am worthless" (we'll call it subconscious AA) behaviours in this person theoretical life may be that they are shy, fearful of socialising, aren't assertive etc. this subconscious could have been created during childhoods due to abuse or whatever reason may cause that sort of thing to have caused that subconscious identity to have developed. My query is, would this subconscious, this statement, this subconscious identity (which is self - aware and accessible to us only during our dream state) is actively trying to trick/prevent us from altering/changing it? because if you had this statement/identity as your buried subconscious identity and then took measures to change it to lets say "i am valuable and assertive" (we'll call this subconscious BB) (which would in theory change your waking behaviour from being a shy recluse, to a confident assertive domineering person), then technically you would be killing the previous subconscious AA, correct? therefore your current subconscious AA (i'm worthless subconscious AA) has a vested interest in making sure you/ we don't lucid dream and prevents us from eliminating/ destroying, changing or replacing it with another one, i.e. identity or root statement. whats your opinion? i know its a bit confusing and far fetched but i'm just curious what other people think. if your in need of a visual of what i mean by "root statement" then think of that scene in inception with cobbs wife her identity/ statement went from "i'm awake + whatever her personality was because that wasn't really covered in the movie"AA became "i'm dreaming"BB, i know they used a spinning top in the movie but thats not how reality works as far as i;'m aware. hypnosis in real life use statements when their patients are in their "dream states". so yea? do you think this could be a potential reason why we aren't naturally aware we dream (on average as humans as a whole, to the point there are people who think lucid dreaming is simply science fiction) thanks

[Kaitakaro]

From my point of view it's more based on habituation, for all those years* you wandered your waking life and in your dreams never being sceptical if your surroundings or even yourself was real or not and the subC clings to these old concepts i guess. But with time and practice you can change this ,just as you can change your self-perception. *(or if you are a Hindu/Buddhist etc. even past life times)

[Eonnn]

I think it's only natural for the subconscious to be in control when we dream. Even at the earliest of ages when you very first start dreaming it has control. So your personality traits or self-identity has little to do with it. I've always assumed that the conscious mind needs rest, and perhaps the subconscious mind is repairing the conscious mind while we sleep.

[dolphin]

We generally subconsciously think about things other than lucid dreaming.

[shadowofwind]

My subconscious will generally block any awareness that would interfere with dream experience of whatever my most psychologically important issues are. I don't try to control my dreams, except by deciding my interest before I sleep, but I'm always lucid in the sense of being aware that I'm dreaming, if I'm even aware of the dream. Dreaming is very important to processing daytime experiences whether you remember it or not. If you were in conscious control of all your dreams you'd quickly wreck your mind and health. But even if you don't try to steer your dreams, being aware that you are dreaming may be irrelevant to the dream, so it is left out.

[Zoth]

But even if you don't try to steer your dreams, being aware that you are dreaming may be irrelevant to the dream, so it is left out. I was also thinking about this. But lucidity must at a minimal degree influence dream content, thus disrupting dream narrative. Take for example dreaming about being attacked by a giant and deadly Pikachu: lucidity would give you the knowledge that you cannot be harmed/killed by it, so you would change to some point your behavior regarding that scene. The simple fact of being lucid then seems to make you control the dream. From my point of view it's more based on habituation, for all those years* you wandered your waking life and in your dreams never being sceptical if your surroundings or even yourself was real or not and the subC clings to these old concepts i guess. This makes a lot of sense, but it does beg an interesting question: what would be the reason for not being born with the ability to lucid dream all the time then? Unless we stated that babies to start as natural lucid dreamers, but due the lack of understanding regarding the experience don't develop it further and thus loose the appropriate connections for such. But for some reason that doesn't seem to make much sense hmm. I think it's only natural for the subconscious to be in control when we dream. This makes me think about some lessons Sivason gives regarding lucidity - that it may serve as a transcendental experience of great learning and insight - wouldn't it be then fair for the conscious aspect of the self to be included in the experience? Especially considering we might even forget the lucid dreams we have! and perhaps the subconscious mind is repairing the conscious mind while we sleep. One good way to test this would be an experiment in which participants would see reduced recyclage of cerebrospinal fluid while lucid vs controls. Quite an interesting idea

[Kaitakaro]

This makes a lot of sense, but it does beg an interesting question: what would be the reason for not being born with the ability to lucid dream all the time then? Unless we stated that babies to start as natural lucid dreamers, but due the lack of understanding regarding the experience don't develop it further and thus loose the appropriate connections for such. But for some reason that doesn't seem to make much sense hmm. I would blame it on the lack of self-awarness. The sense of self first hast to develop , and when this happens the waking world gives a far more coherent experience ,so that the child identifies with its waking-self/experience so strongly that it even projects it onto the dream-self/experience, creating the commen non-lucid dreamer zombie in the process.

[Wisher]

Very interesting thread intuitionlink2, Your question assumes the subconscious doesn't want us lucid. This may feel accurate to you but that assumption is unjustified. What we see at the fundamentals of LDing is that focus and intent form the dreamscape. Here your attention on a lack of subC support in lucidity would then help create that for you. The 24/7 lucid dreamers are out here if that's what you are wondering

[user5659]

Not saying I know why, just thoughts.. When you were a child, you had your first dreams, you thought they are reality too. You did not see any difference between awake reality and dream reality. Slowly, you started to understand that those are 'nightmares' those images are not real. I am talking about nightmares because when you were small and you dreamt of something nice(not scary), you probably did not realize it was just a dream. When it was a nightmare, you realized that it didn't really happen when you woke up, slowly, but you realized that. When you grew up, your parents told you 'it was just a nightmare', 'it was just a dream', 'its not real'. Your parents, our society, made you know that dreams are not real. Years by years, we do change our mindset on dreams. We know they are just cartoons, nothing is real there, nothing to worry about, nothing to change there. So a need to control your dreams is no longer needed, it becomes a habit. Years later, your subconscious mind does whatever it wants when you are dreaming. Your subconscious mind now knows that it is free. When you are adult, you might recall even less, probably dreams are less important for you now and you forget them after every REM phase passes. But don't be sad, that process is reversible. I wonder what would happen if parents would do an experiment on their child and tell a different story. I guess one day I will find out.

[shadowofwind]

Flowofmysoul, I don't agree with that hardly at all. I've always regarded thoughts as more real than objects, and teach my kids that too. But waking life experience is still real in ways that dreams are not, and most people figure that out in childhood irrespective of what you tell them. And my kids won't dream like I do, it is not in their nature, and it would distort their lives if I tried too hard to change that. Culture matters, but a lot of things go a lot deeper, and culture is in some regards more of a symptom than a cause.

[user5659]

Flowofmysoul, I don't agree with that hardly at all. I've always regarded thoughts as more real than objects, and teach my kids that too. But waking life experience is still real in ways that dreams are not, and most people figure that out in childhood irrespective of what you tell them. And my kids won't dream like I do, it is not in their nature, and it would distort their lives if I tried too hard to change that. Culture matters, but a lot of things go a lot deeper, and culture is in some regards more of a symptom than a cause. In the beginning I was talking of when we were babies, 2-4 years old. It is not clear if babies at that age are having dreams or not, some think they might see no difference between dream and waking reality. And we do not remember anything from that early, so its hard to say what we were thinking that time. I agree we should not try too hard to change their minds. Anyway, its just an idea, as I said before I don't know the reason why..

[snoop]

I wouldn't necessarily say the subconscious wants anything, let alone it doesn't want "us" to be consciously aware during a dream. I think the nature of brain and other physiological reactions occur and change during sleep simply promotes being unconscious, or to lose consciousness assuming you gain it. There's not an "enemy" opposing our ability to become lucid, I feel like that believing it happens that way is a natural mechanism for anthropomorphizing the issue, that we feel like we have an adversary of sorts that we can eventually become greater than. Maybe the bit about antropomorphizing is a bit of a stretch. Regardless, I don't think this is the result of the subconscious as an entity bent against our lucidity.

[Sheddler]

My hypothesis is that either it is NOT our subconscious trying to prevent us, but rather external forces. Some dream characters contain such depth and intelligence that it's quite difficult to think otherwise. Although, I could definitely see the robotic hollow DC'S as a projection of an unconscious/subconscious mind.

[Dthoughts]

I think in part it is parasitic leechers trying to control our consciousness. & Hell yeah, I posted in a 5 star thread

[calielizabeth]

I think some dreams are meant to be non lucid. I dreamed I was in New Zealand in the future, and that dream changed my life. If I had been lucid, some of the visionary beautiful divine sense of the dream would have been lost. The dream was really about heaven, letting me know that NZ is the God zone. Some dreams are better lucid and we can explore our minds, but some dreams are visions from God and are not really "dreams" to begin with they are real. And some come from our subconscious mind, the mind needs rest, so we arent always lucid.

[ThreeCat]

In response to Zoth, if we understand dreaming as a threat simulator of waking life dangers/anxieties, then the purpose is to prepare us for those same WL experiences. If we constantly knew we were dreaming, the efficacy of such a mechanism would be lowered--at least at the level of primitive man. So I think there is an evolutionary explanation: nonlucid dreamers lived longer than their lucid brethren. The subconscious mind, as snoop said, doesn't want anything--it just evolved in such a fashion. I think humankind has outgrown the need of non lucid dreaming, but there may be disagreements on that topic.

[user5659]

In response to Zoth, if we understand dreaming as a threat simulator of waking life dangers/anxieties, then the purpose is to prepare us for those same WL experiences. If we constantly knew we were dreaming, the efficacy of such a mechanism would be lowered--at least at the level of primitive man. So I think there is an evolutionary explanation: nonlucid dreamers lived longer than their lucid brethren. The subconscious mind, as snoop said, doesn't want anything--it just evolved in such a fashion. I think humankind has outgrown the need of non lucid dreaming, but there may be disagreements on that topic. It is a good point on evolutionary explanation. Outgrown or realized it was on a wrong path and now evolving towards lucid dreaming.

[JShadow]

I actually think our subconscious DOES want us to know we're dreaming IMO. I have a lot of crazy stuff happen in my dreams and people show up that live very far from me. I believe my subconscious wants me notice these things and dream lucidly. But the underlying cause of sleeping in a dream is that we're sleeping when we're awake, as in not aware and not questioning reality.

[Synergeon]

Let's begin with another question: why our subconscious don't show us directly our fear, our desires and insted he shows us images? It's believed that it does so because the direct facing of this stuff could shock the conscious mind, or the Ego, which is what we are usually identified with. I don't know about you but personally when I started lucid dreaming I've always had dreadful expiriences. So I believe one of the many reasons our subconscious doesn't allow us to be aware is to protect us. Fuck you subconscious, we are brave!

[Sensei]

I like to say "unconscious" rather than "subconscious" because it gives the idea your mind working without you thinking about it rather than a different consciousness in your mind controlling things. The mind is very malleable, but if you continue to do the same thing thousands of times, it will be harder and harder to bend. I spent the first 20 years of my life without being aware in a dream that I am dreaming, which is 7300 mindless nights, how would an emotionless processor know that I want to be aware in dreams? It doesn't take special requests! This is why we have repetition as the basis of all our techniques. WILD is the only one that surpasses that, but WILD is such a delicate balance of awake and asleep that it takes even more repetition of practice to get the balance correct. This is the reason that I believe that the easiest way to have LDs is to already have them, or to start when you are young and your brain is more malleable. This is why with every single LD you have, it is easier to have another LD.

[Runeword]

it's because our "subconscious" is actually all the evil demons that dwell in our hearts and are there to trick/ lie/ and confuse us. Honestly I don't know why or what but I have definitely noticed that there IS some sort of barrier there trying to keep the 2 consciousness' seperate.