Thread: How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?

Sageous, I have actually stated multiple times now that I am not entirely confident that my travels are what they appear to be and acknowledge the validity of all possibilities (although the likelihood of these possibilities is also factored in based on my experience, research and current understanding), so you are essentially preaching to the choir with the questions and suggestions you have raised.

Some people think that spiritual growth means adopting esoteric beliefs and practices. In my opinion, spiritual growth comes from purifying the mind of its defilements (harmful qualities) and cultivating wholesome qualities. I resonate greatly with Theravada Buddhist philosophy, which actually suggests that practices such as lucid dreaming and OBEs actually serve to clutter the mind and are a hinderance to the purification of the mind. I do believe there is benefit to these practices, however, if one holds the proper perspective and doesn't become attached to the experiences or form belief systems which lead to delusion. In the very least, these experiences can provide insight into deeper aspects of one's mind that may be purposefully or unknowingly hidden from one's normal awareness, as well as a medium for dealing with certain issues and overcoming obstacles in one's mind. I also see potential to discover insights regarding the self and reality that are beyond the range of the physically-attuned mind's ability to access. In my opinion, this applies to both OBEs and LDs (if they are in fact different) equally.

^^ That's all great, Vince, and most impressive! It doesn't seem to agree much with what you've been asserting here, but I guess I must have misunderstood.

Regardless, given this mindset, I'm surprised you are not interested in attempting to honestly understand -- for yourself, and not as proof to others -- where, upon waking, you really just were. It seems to me that assuming things like visits to multiple dimensions is simply another obstacle to overcome, and not a way to better purify your mind. Wouldn't learning to know where you've just been in your lucid exploration actually help you to more effectively gain insight into deeper aspects of your mind? What, after all, is the point of gaining this insight if you fail to (or don't care to) properly remember it upon waking?

I have a feeling that being true to your memory of events is a concept that would sit well in Buddhist practice as well...

Regardless, I still believe there is value in learning to avoid delusion or attaching conclusions about where you were after a suspected OBE based on expectation or what other people have told you... and it seems, based on what you just said, that you might be interested in that as well, right?

Yes, perhaps there's been a misunderstanding. My input on this thread is not what I believe to be absolutely true, but rather what is possible based on my experience and research. Any assumptions made by me are strictly theoretical/speculation and not something I incorporate into my personal worldview. I don't even assume that my waking life is as it seems, let alone my altered state experiences.

I do see some assumptions being made about me and what I believe, however, that do not reflect reality.

I have done tests to attempt to discern "where" I was and what the nature of my environment was like. One such test is requesting for all subconscious and dream elements be removed from my perception. Interestingly, sometimes when done in the out-of-body state, certain elements disappear while others remain, as if the reality is a mixture of both subconscious and independently existing elements. There have been other times when I received what seemed to be direct knowing of my current state and the reality I was in, and it was clear that attempting to assign a name or location to the experience was completely missing the point.

Regarding your last question, I think I've been pretty clear in answering it already.

I think I'm going to wrap things up here with a short conclusion of my thoughts on the matter: While there are indications that there may be different modes of lucid consciousness beyond the bounds of the physical world (lucid dreaming, astral projection, etc), physical proof will probably never be obtained to allow absolute epistemic certainty, so if this is what one considers necessary to be "reasonably certain," then one will never be certain. There are, however, tests that one can perform that can allow psychological certainty, particularly as one develops the discernment and experience to recognize the variations in the potentially different modes of experience. Regardless, certainty between OBE and LD is not needed for an individual to benefit from these experiences, and if one goes about their OBEs/LDs constantly seeking proof, they may miss out on some really powerful and potentially transformative experiences that may be squandered by doubt or by obsessing about satisfying the ego's need for proof rather than taking the opportunity to explore and learn. Keep in mind that it may be a false assumption to believe that OBEs and LDs are different things to begin with, or that dreams and LDs are solely the product of the brain or take place entirely in one's head. I could very well ask how you can be certain that LDs are not OBEs, and you will likely find the same challenges in doing so, as it's essentially the same thing but starting out with a different assumption.

I just think this was a great thread.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I just think this was a great thread.

Is it done?

Originally Posted by Sageous

Is it done?

I would hope not! It was a great thread. Wheter it continues to do so. Only time will tell.

A grammar nazi would have said, "This has been a great thread!"

Haha. For me it's probably done. Not sure I can add anything of value without repeating myself (not that what I've said thus far has necessarily been of value).

I really have to hand it to pretty much everyone who responded to this thread. This has been one of the first experiences I have ever had in beyond dreaming in which the party that is skeptical of what some believe to a fact of reality are able to effectively communicate with the believers of that fact meaningfully, and vice versa. There was almost no (if any) arrogant and condescending statements, except maybe a few that arose from simple misunderstandings that didn't persist much beyond their initial posts. I'm really glad to have been able to have this discussion, for once I feel like both sides have found out more about what they actually believe. Hopefully it isn't the end of the thread, anyone new to the discussion is more than welcome to join, but I can say (for once) that I am proud of the people that responded. This has been pleasant, it's really a rare occurrence.

^one word, mercury retrograde

Oh this again. Useless discussion. Nothing written will prove to anyone one way or another. Believe what you will based on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, zero reason to prove to ANYONE else because it's just not gonna happen. There is no prophet, there is no master here other than yourself. If it satisfies your own conclusion then stop trying to argue everyone else's.

Originally Posted by Runeword

Oh this again. Useless discussion. Nothing written will prove to anyone one way or another. Believe what you will based on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, zero reason to prove to ANYONE else because it's just not gonna happen. There is no prophet, there is no master here other than yourself. If it satisfies your own conclusion then stop trying to argue everyone else's.

I disagree about the "useless" part. There is always a chance to learn from the experiences and insight of others.

Originally Posted by Runeword

Oh this again. Useless discussion. Nothing written will prove to anyone one way or another. Believe what you will based on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, zero reason to prove to ANYONE else because it's just not gonna happen. There is no prophet, there is no master here other than yourself. If it satisfies your own conclusion then stop trying to argue everyone else's.

I'm not sure you picked up on the main theme of this thread, Runeword.

We are not talking about proving anything to anybody here. We are talking about how to find a way to understand for yourself where you've been or what really happened after a suspected OBE. While discussing this we might have wandered of into the realm of definitions, but I don't think even then we were talking about proving anything to anyone else.

Among the difficulties discussed, though, was delusion, which can open the door to deciding you had experiences that never really happened, simply because you wish to believe that you did. This sounds like something that could easily happen if you were to base everything on personal experience only, as you said above -- especially if you choose to believe your conclusion about what happened immediately, without taking care to remember it as honestly and thoroughly as you can. I personally don't think that is the best way to go, especially if you want to grow in your experiences or learn to explore to deeper depths; maybe you could elaborate?

So it might not be time yet to dismiss this conversation as another useless "I'm right, you're wrong!"/"Yeah, well prove it!" argument; because it isn't. Given your post, I think you might have had some interesting things to add, because we are discussing the evaluation and (personal) validation of our personal experiences here, and not much else.

This conversation (as well as others on this site) make me more aware of the importance of this question. What else but memory can be used to assess the past?

Would it be a satisfactory answer to contemplate multiple possibilities? For example, if I were to experience an OBE, I could entertain the memory that I did indeed have an OBE, and then during a subsequent analysis of this experience, I could interpret it as if it was a dream. This could be done alternatively and with other interpretations. I don't think this helps to find for sure what truly happened but at least it seems practical.

I owe an apology here. The frustration of seeing this same thread written in so many forms got to me during a late night. Let me try to add something more sensible to this conversation. Did anyone else here watch the X-Files series? Remember that poster that agent Mulder had hanging in his office with the UFO that had in caption "I Want To Believe?" For me that statement ends all. This conversation is just too personal of a subject along the same lines as "I saw an alien UFO, I believe Jesus is God, etc etc etc." There is no proof to share that will make one person right or wrong enough to put this debate and conversation to rest. If someone "wants to believe" in something and it gives them something to be excited about and a desire to learn more and seek more knowledge GREAT! For me personally I am willing to let each person be happy with their own discoveries and beliefs (which WILL change with time and experience.)

Runeword: we all have our own small proofs, it is on us, the travellers, whether we start to believe blindly to those proofs, or we are trying to find something stronger, more certain. Some of us are believing strong and fanatically... others are more skeptic. I prefer more scientific approach(I'm researcher in the field of inorganic materials in this physical reality), therefore my proofs are not enough for me. I need something reliable and repeatable. I didn't manage that yet and I don't know if I would manage that ever. But that is not stopping me. I take my spiritual way as hobby.

Originally Posted by Runeword

I owe an apology here. The frustration of seeing this same thread written in so many forms got to me during a late night. Let me try to add something more sensible to this conversation. Did anyone else here watch the X-Files series? Remember that poster that agent Mulder had hanging in his office with the UFO that had in caption "I Want To Believe?" For me that statement ends all. This conversation is just too personal of a subject along the same lines as "I saw an alien UFO, I believe Jesus is God, etc etc etc." There is no proof to share that will make one person right or wrong enough to put this debate and conversation to rest. If someone "wants to believe" in something and it gives them something to be excited about and a desire to learn more and seek more knowledge GREAT! For me personally I am willing to let each person be happy with their own discoveries and beliefs (which WILL change with time and experience.)

There is a big difference between blind belief and belief born of experience and firsthand insight.

And yet, still, this thread is not about belief; at least I don't believe it was meant to be.

What we are discussing is how we go about understanding what just happened to us when we wake from an event that seemed like a OBE: how we establish what really happened, as opposed to what we immediately think might have happened.

Sure, attaching your personal belief to what happened, and deciding that you had an OBE because you "want to believe" that you had one, is one way of sorting out the nature of where you just were. However, I think there may be other ways to better confirm or define the nature of your experience, and those ways are very likely couched in memory.

For instance:

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Would it be a satisfactory answer to contemplate multiple possibilities? For example, if I were to experience an OBE, I could entertain the memory that I did indeed have an OBE, and then during a subsequent analysis of this experience, I could interpret it as if it was a dream. This could be done alternatively and with other interpretations. I don't think this helps to find for sure what truly happened but at least it seems practical.

Originally Posted by Sageous

We are talking about how to find a way to understand for yourself where you've been or what really happened after a suspected OBE.

What about visiting the same place twice? a place you have never been before that exists only in the astral? There's been a few of these places for me that I've encountered in dreams, I have good situational awareness so I can recall it if I've been there once before. I've read that you can encounter astral area's in your dreams where it's a consensus reality made up by other beings who exist there. So this means there are cities and other places where astral beings live that do not change, that also do not exist here in physical reality on earth. Either that or my mind is conjuring up a new city and I'm revisiting it later on.

But then that brings me to point number two. Astral beings. I've had a number of encounters with 'dream characters' that seem to have higher intelligence than regular DC's. They have their own agenda, sometimes their own powers and abilities, but generally they just stand out as being different or unique, like they have a mind of their own.

But it all comes full circle to the question "how do I know this isn't my mind playing tricks on me?" At the end of the day astral beings and astral cities could very well be figments of my imagination, without another person there to verify it makes it difficult to discern the truth. My only hope is that I find out when I die because if the astral is real then that's most likely where everyone ends up.

I'd like to point out that it's possible to be certain of something without the existence of the proof that would be required to convince another person that one's certainty is justifiable. Certainty is a subjective thing, a feeling. Whether one chooses to base this on objective and verifiable facts is up to the person. Again, the important thing is that a person uses these experiences in a way which brings benefit to their lives. Otherwise one is simply waisting their time.

^^ Once more: I don't think we're talking about -- or even considering -- proving anything to another person.

But that certainty you mention is certainly important, especially as you mention it. I think the real question here is how we gain that certainty.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Once more: I don't think we're talking about -- or even considering -- proving anything to another person.

But that certainty you mention is certainly important, especially as you mention it. I think the real question here is how we gain that certainty.

Going by the many people I've spoken to who have had at least one "OBE," it seems that for most, the experience itself is proof enough on a personal level, and being certain of the "fact" that one is operating independent and beyond the confines of the physical body is no different from being certain that one is "in" the body during normal waking life, again, at least on an experiential level. For all we know, our OBEs are actually lucid dreams, and our waking reality is actually a virtual reality simulation. Being that what we generally label as "OBEs" occur directly from the waking state rather than from the dream state (like a normal lucid dream), and can and do occur when there should be no REM sleep in sight, it could be that assigning the label "lucid dream" to these experiences is just as much of a belief as is calling them an OBE.

The OP does mention applying the burden of proof, and I think that it is possible that he is either looking for someone to show him some or trying to make the point that there is none and may never be, as his idea of "reasonable certainty" is directly associated with this proof. It seems a common argument against certainty is, "how can you be certain when there is no proof?" I think that usually when one asks "how can you be certain," they are essentially looking for some kind of proof.

To those that don't believe, no proof is enough. To those that believe, no proof is necessary.

This being said, I think that OBE and AP are a type of dream (not lucid dream, because you think it is AP or OBE, not a dream, and a lucid dream is a dream that you think it is a dream). I think that something that helps me with this belief is the phenomenon of "seeing through your eyelids" I know that several on DV have had. Generally happens in a time similar to a WILD or an OBE would be good, but when you get up for your WBTB like I do, you notice that you can see perfectly with your eyes closed. It is quite trippy. It happens a lot when I am in a state of "high imagination" that happens during WBTBs, I can do things like... these are actually kinda strange examples, but here they are.
Imagine something in my head and it will be as solid as a dream, but generally with only a few senses. like sight, hearing, and smell. I have played chess games like this and the DC I was playing moved in very realistic ways and the chess board was stable. After about 5 minutes, I usually lose the ability, switch into a dream, or switch into a lucid dream.

I have had some fun doing things that are a little more awesome results like multiplying large numbers in my head very quickly. I mean to use a fake calculator sometime soon, but what I did before was just imagine the whole problem out and use two 4 digit numbers. Not an impossible thing for someone to do, but not easy for me. I was able to imagine the numbers and come back to them later because it was solid. When I got an answer I would immediately check the answer on a calculator and it was right. The problem here is that I lose the state when I check my calc usually and lose a chance to LD, so I stopped experimenting with that.

More fun is to talk to DCs in this state because it is easier to remember things that happen and have "100% waking awareness" In order to get more out of talking to DCs I even have gone to Skype and read long long messages that never happened.

At this stage I have been able to learn how to always see through my eyelids when there, but also to be able to move with "my imaginary body"

I don't know why I am off on such a tangent, but basically what I am saying is that I think that the mind holds more information than we know and is able to keep track of large amounts of things that we don't think of. So walking around your house with your eyes closed and not bumping into anything because you can see it doesn't mean that you can "sense it" but that your mind remembers. An OBE is basically the same thing only getting closer to a dream state and believing firmly that you are actually in your house will solidify that world and will give you an exact replica of what your mind last saw in your house. Some details may be off, but you will generally gloss over those because you are indeed in a different "state" and it might just be what the "astral world" looks like.

This also being said I once had an OBE that resulted in my body getting up and fighting me and threatening me like a maniac. I realized quickly that this was not an OBE, but a dream, but it had every OBE like thing that people mention except for one thing: I don't believe in OBEs, so it became more dreamlike (I believe that I tried to go to the moon that day and learned how to do dimensional warping).

"I don't believe in the same thing that you do."
"my belief does not require you to."

People say that we have proved lucid dreaming, but it could be "advanced incubation" if you think about all the tests that we have run. Nothing that is 100% proof.

This is how I have come to understand my experiences within the words many have used to define them.

A lucid dream: is normally for me a dream only, this is the conscious human mind and is more related to daily thoughts.

A astral projection: is within the higher mind and its ability to form whole matrices around single thoughts normally geared towards finding answers to things the mind cannot find. A astral projection can be lead and has the ability to take on any form created by the mind of the person. Astral projections can be forced through the minds of shadows drawing the person into another world within their minds. In a recent astral projection I was suspended several miles above the surface of this world sitting in a small space or pod looking down on a world. I felt like I was there, and I could see and sense all the things around me but it was still not real it had things missing. I then felt the pod release and started speeding towards the ground at a very high rate of acceleration. I spent 3 years in the 82nd airborne and made many jumps from aircraft during my time in. The feeling I got during this decent was very familiar to the feelings of flight and falling from high altitudes. I have had so many of these type experiences in my life to understand they are only astral projections. The higher mind is the place these experiences happen.

There are many levels of astral projections depending on the individual. The more real the experience the more aware you are of it. I have had astral experiences that mimic obes, in the feel and awareness but they are still astral projections. An example of this would be like. I exit my body and start to look around and notice things that are not really their in real life, a book shelf where the dresser goes or an old chair still here when you had thrown it many years ago. I have seen doorways were no doors have ever been and rooms painted colors they have never been. These are only astral projections.

An obe: An obe is that place just before astral projection, it is a fine point that has to be carefully entered. If you start to think to much about it you will fall into the astral and enter into the higher mind. People that suffer or experience sleep paralysis often get a feel for this. If you relax to much you will fall into the astral but if you just remain there and wait and hold you can pull out into the veil. an obe and astral projection are so far from the same thing that no one should ever get them confused or speculate on what experience you just had. in an obe if I leave my body I have to return to it to get back in, this is not so in an astral projection or Ld experience.

This is just my two cents worth and only from my experiences as I have come to understand them.

Powessy

Originally Posted by VinceField

I'd like to point out that it's possible to be certain of something without the existence of the proof that would be required to convince another person that one's certainty is justifiable. Certainty is a subjective thing, a feeling. Whether one chooses to base this on objective and verifiable facts is up to the person. Again, the important thing is that a person uses these experiences in a way which brings benefit to their lives. Otherwise one is simply waisting their time.

Wouldn't certainty be a very lofty concept to base one's beliefs on, then? It goes without saying that someone that is certain of something can be wrong. Nothing about what you've said here is untrue in anyway. However, when one becomes aware of other possibilities and dismisses them for reasons that aren't logical (or perhaps a better way of putting it is for reasons that are purposefully denying the existence of other possibilities for reasons such as personal comfort, because something is cool, because you want simply want to believe in it, etc.), I have to ask why? I guess it boils down to an individuals personality, but it is a mystery why someone would rather believe something they know may well likely be untrue for reasons of comfort, simplicity, or some other reason I can't fathom. Do some people really not care to try and know the "truth"? Even if the concept of truth itself is unattainable, does one ever stop desiring to actually understand what is going on around them?

The sad truth of the matter is that there are more people that would prefer to follow your line of thought, rather than mine. It isn't sad because it isn't "my" line of thought they follow in the self-centered sort of way, but merely that there are not equal parts those who wish to understand what is going on around them despite the answers that are readily presented to explain our experiences, and those who would rather experience life based on their concepts of contentedness and their baser desires. The two would balance each other out quite well, but there seem to be an astounding abundance of humans who would rather live complacently.

Originally Posted by Sensei

To those that don't believe, no proof is enough. To those that believe, no proof is necessary.

This being said, I think that OBE and AP are a type of dream (not lucid dream, because you think it is AP or OBE, not a dream, and a lucid dream is a dream that you think it is a dream). I think that something that helps me with this belief is the phenomenon of "seeing through your eyelids" I know that several on DV have had. Generally happens in a time similar to a WILD or an OBE would be good, but when you get up for your WBTB like I do, you notice that you can see perfectly with your eyes closed. It is quite trippy. It happens a lot when I am in a state of "high imagination" that happens during WBTBs, I can do things like... these are actually kinda strange examples, but here they are.
Imagine something in my head and it will be as solid as a dream, but generally with only a few senses. like sight, hearing, and smell. I have played chess games like this and the DC I was playing moved in very realistic ways and the chess board was stable. After about 5 minutes, I usually lose the ability, switch into a dream, or switch into a lucid dream.

I have had some fun doing things that are a little more awesome results like multiplying large numbers in my head very quickly. I mean to use a fake calculator sometime soon, but what I did before was just imagine the whole problem out and use two 4 digit numbers. Not an impossible thing for someone to do, but not easy for me. I was able to imagine the numbers and come back to them later because it was solid. When I got an answer I would immediately check the answer on a calculator and it was right. The problem here is that I lose the state when I check my calc usually and lose a chance to LD, so I stopped experimenting with that.

More fun is to talk to DCs in this state because it is easier to remember things that happen and have "100% waking awareness" In order to get more out of talking to DCs I even have gone to Skype and read long long messages that never happened.

At this stage I have been able to learn how to always see through my eyelids when there, but also to be able to move with "my imaginary body"

I don't know why I am off on such a tangent, but basically what I am saying is that I think that the mind holds more information than we know and is able to keep track of large amounts of things that we don't think of. So walking around your house with your eyes closed and not bumping into anything because you can see it doesn't mean that you can "sense it" but that your mind remembers. An OBE is basically the same thing only getting closer to a dream state and believing firmly that you are actually in your house will solidify that world and will give you an exact replica of what your mind last saw in your house. Some details may be off, but you will generally gloss over those because you are indeed in a different "state" and it might just be what the "astral world" looks like.

This also being said I once had an OBE that resulted in my body getting up and fighting me and threatening me like a maniac. I realized quickly that this was not an OBE, but a dream, but it had every OBE like thing that people mention except for one thing: I don't believe in OBEs, so it became more dreamlike (I believe that I tried to go to the moon that day and learned how to do dimensional warping).

"I don't believe in the same thing that you do."
"my belief does not require you to."

People say that we have proved lucid dreaming, but it could be "advanced incubation" if you think about all the tests that we have run. Nothing that is 100% proof.

Nice post. I have had very similar experiences, especially when just waking up after being in the middle of dreaming.

Originally Posted by Eonnn

What about visiting the same place twice? a place you have never been before that exists only in the astral? There's been a few of these places for me that I've encountered in dreams, I have good situational awareness so I can recall it if I've been there once before. I've read that you can encounter astral area's in your dreams where it's a consensus reality made up by other beings who exist there. So this means there are cities and other places where astral beings live that do not change, that also do not exist here in physical reality on earth. Either that or my mind is conjuring up a new city and I'm revisiting it later on.

How do you know it is really the same place? Could it be a very similar place that, through confirmation bias is then "remembered" as being the same? The place was more or less a "skeleton" of the same place with similar attributes projected onto it, and upon your remembrance the projected characteristics are reprojected as what you just saw? After all, it would be quicker for the mind to use a collection of the "images" you just saw to remember what you saw before. The striking similarity and the perceived impossibility thereof would be convincing enough to forget any real differences. Hell, it's difficult to spot the differences in still pictures half the time (ever seen two pictures and been asked to identify what is missing in them? It's surprisingly hard). Are you sure you have never seen or been to this place before? What if you've seen it in a magazine or movie and you simply don't remember it?