Thread: Consider this a gift to you lots

Alright but do you have much of a reason to believe that? Rather than you just think it is? Think of normal dreaming. Without lucidity. Normal people do that. Is that spiritual? But now that thier concious at the same time, its spiritual? I'm not saying it isnt possible, but I just disagree. I think you just want it to be spiritual so bad you convince yourself it is.

somedreamer, I would of started to argue until I read your other posts and saw that your a funny guy. But anyway, wat your saying is ture, though I'm not a kid, by that I mean 9 or 10. I'm almost and adult. Look, the law of attraction exists you just gotta look around. But, if you don't wanna believe it then, don't. Its like religion; I don't agree with everything every religion says. But, that doesn't mean I'd say to someone that what your saying isn't true!

hey tricky, I actually began to feel that dreams were spiritual, in NORMAL dreams. without lucidity of any kind

I began to feel they were spiritual just be analyzing the dream. the conclusion that I got was, I am a consciousness. Any realization that you are consciousness, is spirituality at its purest.

material is thinking you are a body with a working brain. spiritual is, you are not body, but consciousness or spirit in a body

I got this impression from very vivid but non lucid dreams. once in a vivid dream, I threw up! Sick to my stomach, it was HORRIBLE. Very realistic, down to everything. Just..HORRIBLE. At some point I realized I was dreaming and willed myself awake. When I woke up, there was no vomit on my bed and my stomach was fine. The entire experience was 'outside' of my body. I had the same experience with peeing in a dream. My bed was dry!

thats when I began to look at dreams differently

and I began to note that when I feel pain or pleasure in a dream, it WAS NOT my body feeling pain or pleasure - but just my consciousness. when I 'walk' in a dream. its not my body walking. when I talk in a dream. its not my throat making noises. when I hear in a dream, its not my ears working.

I began to see dreams, as an experience outside or without the body. yet, this I can experience anything in this experience.

the next weird thing that I noticed about dreams, was imagination in dreams. now I perceive my dreams as outside of myself, a 'landscape' I walk around in. yet at the same time, I believe this landscape is created by my mind, right?

well one time in a dream, I closed my eyes and imagined. what I was imagining, I did not perceive around me - but in my head some where. as you would right now if you imagined something. My imagination was, IN THE BACK OF MY MIND. I opened my eyes again in the dream, and looked at the landscape around me. Nothing changed since I closed my eyes. I closed my eyes again and imagined something in the back of my mind, and again I opened them still seeing the same unchanged landscape

I was trying to change the dreamscape by imagining a new one, just so you know. but my 'imagination' in the back of my mind, had no affect on the dream world that I perceived 'around' me.

and I finally asked myself "if the dream is created by my own mind, where is the dream really taking place? how does something in my mind exist outside of my consciousness? since I, the consciousness, can walk in the dreamscape, it is outside of my perceived consciousness. How is this possible if the dream is only in my mind? Why can I imagine something in the back of my conscious mind, and it has no affect on the outer dreamscape?"

its very very very weird, when you really experience this in a dream conscious. it made me question, if a dream was really just limited to my head.

materialism has yet to give me an answer. the spiritual beliefs of the astral realm gave me a better answer. while the dream is created by your mind - it is not taking place in your mind. and this gives me a better understanding of how I can have an imagination IN MY MIND, while the dream was 'around' me.

Originally Posted by phonix

somedreamer, I would of started to argue until I read your other posts and saw that your a funny guy. But anyway, wat your saying is ture, though I'm not a kid, by that I mean 9 or 10. I'm almost and adult. Look, the law of attraction exists you just gotta look around. But, if you don't wanna believe it then, don't. Its like religion; I don't agree with everything every religion says. But, that doesn't mean I'd say to someone that what your saying isn't true!

Thats retarted. He SHOULDNT believe. If he went around believing everything, it would be called being gullible. What you should do is provide evidence of its existance other than "look around". I personally believe in such things, but only because I have seen it with my own eyes and can reproduce it at will.(The movement of objects, etc) But some people arent so fortunite. You need to provide evidence. As long as they stay open minded and thier WILLING to believe, its fine by me. But they shouldnt believe without a reason to.

juroara: Fair enough. Sounds good. I also believe I have a conciousness that doesnt need my body.

I've already given the website for him to read the stories

Originally Posted by Tricky

Alright but do you have much of a reason to believe that? Rather than you just think it is? Think of normal dreaming. Without lucidity. Normal people do that. Is that spiritual? But now that thier concious at the same time, its spiritual? I'm not saying it isnt possible, but I just disagree. I think you just want it to be spiritual so bad you convince yourself it is.

I actually listed several reasons why I believe lucid dreams are spiritually based in my response to you.

I'm not sure I follow your response in terms of reasons to believe, but then again, it was not my intention to debate you on why you should believe as I do.

Perhaps you only wanted to make the statement that you did not believe dreams were spiritual in nature.

I believe dreams both lucid and non-lucid have, at their core a spiritual essence and was only attempting to clarify why I think this is so.

I have my own experiences which I base my beliefs on and generally find that if something resonates with my own inner spirit or being then that's good enough for me.

Again though, if lucid dreams are simply the mind's attempt to amuse itself while we sleep, that amounts to not much more than a parlor trick to me.

I'd rather let it amuse itself on autopilot without involving me were that the case.

To my mind, dreams mean SOMETHING though and are not simply projections of a bored mind as it waits for us to become conscious again.

I think the bulk of material you'll find on the subject actually supports my position that dreams are much more than just random images which ultimately mean nothing.

Still, if you believe they mean nothing, by all means proceed in that general direction.

I've noticed that all of the die-hard supporters of "The Secret" on this forum seem to be extremely naive and immature, and probably are around the ages of thirteen or fourteen.

They use the whole "open your mind" thing, and say that this is a lucid dreaming site, and so everyone should believe in everything "spiritual" because lucid dreaming is also seen as spiritual or something.

Calling us immature? Look whos talking. You're trying to offend other people's beliefs. And judging by your piece of text, I'm guessing you're naive and probably a douche bag, but then again, I couldn't care less...

And whats wrong with "opening your mind"? Life would be a whole lot easier if everyone did, heck yoou really need to open your mind. You're only given the choice to believe in this or not, but no one gave you the right to offend other people's beliefs.

No one has proved The Secret. You can't use The Secret to get the winning lottery numbers. But you can use The Secret to get generalized stuff, like "fortune." But how do you define fortune? If you find a penny, one could call that fortune. In this way, The Secret holds the same mechanics as any superstition. Unfalsifiable. The only benefits you get from it are the ones that you attribte to it (for instance, instead of thinking that the penny you found was coincidence, you could say that The Secret made the person drop it, and you find it). But in the end, whether it's from The Secret or not, the end result is the same.

The only real applications for this 'Secret' is for fiction writing (which, in a world not bound by reality, would work well with the right pen-wielder) and for scam marketing (as you said, you need to pay to know The Secret behind The Secret).

Interesting point, but whos to say that you can't use this to win the lottery? Those who fail at winning had doubts about themselves. I do like how you talked about fortune, but fortune is something we make (at least thats what I think).

Writermind: I mean a reason to believe LDs are spiritual, meaning, you have something to lead you to believing that. Dreams are much more than random images. They can tell you things, give you messages from your subconcious, they mean things. But that doesnt mean they have to be spiritual. For all you know it can be your subconcious trying to tell you something. Juroara did a good job with this IMO. I liked what he said. He gave a reason to believe why he thinks it can be spiritual. So I guess I'm on the LDs can be spiritual side, now.

Phoenix: That website didnt prove anything. That website gives stories, and it tries to sell a product to you saying they can teach you how to use it. I'm not saying they cant, but its not proof of anything. You should show some scientific studies or something, that proove its existance. Not a website with shitty ass stories on it, trying to sell you something.

ALSO. If this law of attraction thing does exist, theres still nothing that says its a spiritual thing. I can do psychic things, and telekinesis and everything but theres nothing that says its spiritual. I myself believe its 100% science related. Either support your argument with evidence for what you believe or its not much of an argument. I'm NOT saying its not a spiritual thing. It very well could be. I am open to either sides. But you have not given any evidence other than "look around" and a shitty website.

P.S Belief actually isnt required believe it or not. Before I could move things I didnt really believe, only after some time. It can help, but its not required. Just the expectation that what your trying to do will somehow happen seems to be required. SEEMS.

I dont like the term "The Secret" anymore. It implies that they discovered it and their the only ones who know it. So from now on I'll say "The law of attraction"

I've already given the website for him to read the stories

Well, for me those stories are no prove at all, and well... they aren't, because they'll all subjective and all come from minds who believe in it. They're all selected out and you should not believe everything they put there, you gotta be sceptic, I mean, of course all they put there is good stories so The Secret will look good. No offence ment here of course But you don't even know if they're actually true or not ^^ Of course they could be, but then again there would be no proof of how it ended up that way.

But anyway, wat your saying is ture, though I'm not a kid, by that I mean 9 or 10. I'm almost and adult. Look, the law of attraction exists you just gotta look around. But, if you don't wanna believe it then, don't. Its like religion; I don't agree with everything every religion says. But, that doesn't mean I'd say to someone that what your saying isn't true!

Sorry about the kid thing, didn't mean to offend at all. But there it is again, you're saying that The Law of actraction does exist, you just gotta look around. But no ^^ That doesn't prove anything at all. Again, there's no direct evidence that points to the Law of attraction, just a simple fact. Like Tricky put it, of course you have to stay open minded about things, but you can't just go around believing in everything, that would just be plain stupid And I think you'll agree with me here . Everything that you and others state are based on feelings, not facts and evidence, and as it is right now, it's impossible to link real direct facts and evidence with what you experience to The Secret. There's no way that you can know if it exists or not Of course I can't either, I don't say it doesn't exist, I'm just saying that I don't believe in it because it's highly doubtful with what science tells us today, and because, as I said, The Secret is based on feelings, no evidence or facts. Not saying that's a bad thing, but that makes it just a whole lot more doubful from a scientific point of view.

Anyhow, cheers! Just a friendly discussion here, hope there's no hard feelings, hehe.

While the secret was good for introducing the idea, it really didn't explain why or how this effect works. Actually they repeat themselves over and over without providing any new information. A full movie seems like overkill considering how little actual information they provide.

I think I've discovered the basic mechanism or laws as to why and how this works through dreaming. I've been trying to expand on how to apply it both in dreams and in RL in this thread.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=57283

*Note: I can't edit my initial posts in that thread, and have since included the emotional aspect as a separate rule of it's own.

sorry, i am responding to something on the first page. this is actually my first post, instigated by those who hate the secret.
there are many people like you who could not accept the secret lightly-like myself. but being open minded, i tested the philosophies of the secret, infact dared them to act, and they did. if you look at the tutorials on this website, even the author states at a point- believe that you will ld, and fell happy as though you have achieved it. this could have been a means of convincing the subconscious of its abilities, in which case the secret was atleast helpful in mastering self. be open minded, and atleast test the secret as it requests. you may not gain "magical powers", but you will surely learn something.

As far as all the scientific proof goes, it should be noted that science is founded on guesswork and theories. Maths is rife with "fugefactors" to make the equations work and it's all just to try and make sense of a universe that doesn't make sense.
That doesn't mean, of course, that anything's possible; it just means that when it comes down to it, no one really knows what's going on and anyone who's convinced their idea is 100% right is most probably not taking everything into account.
Personally, if you can suspend judgement completely, you should be able to test out this stuff yourself and see if there's anything in it.
if you are an avid believer then you run the risk of being self deluded and if you're an avid dissbeliever, you run the risk of being self deluded so there you have it.

Originally Posted by jarrick

As far as all the scientific proof goes, it should be noted that science is founded on guesswork and theories. Maths is rife with "fugefactors" to make the equations work and it's all just to try and make sense of a universe that doesn't make sense.
That doesn't mean, of course, that anything's possible; it just means that when it comes down to it, no one really knows what's going on and anyone who's convinced their idea is 100% right is most probably not taking everything into account.
Personally, if you can suspend judgement completely, you should be able to test out this stuff yourself and see if there's anything in it.
if you are an avid believer then you run the risk of being self deluded and if you're an avid dissbeliever, you run the risk of being self deluded so there you have it.

Theres that saying or whater, something in the lines of

"Don't follow the person who claims to know the truth, follow the person who tries to find it."

It's so true. (D: )

That's what places me in a very wierd position between atheism and theism too. I'm thinking of starting a religion, making a huge book with 7500 pages, and then write on page 3467; "I don't fucking know. You don't either."

Originally Posted by juroara

hey tricky, I actually began to feel that dreams were spiritual, in NORMAL dreams. without lucidity of any kind

I began to feel they were spiritual just be analyzing the dream. the conclusion that I got was, I am a consciousness. Any realization that you are consciousness, is spirituality at its purest.

material is thinking you are a body with a working brain. spiritual is, you are not body, but consciousness or spirit in a body

Of course Lucid dreams are spiritual. Of course dreams are spiritual. Taking a shit is spiritual, if you ask me.

Spirituality is about a sense of consciousness, as you say Juroara. It is the sense of being fully conscious in the here and now because this moment right now is special, sacred and worthy of attention.

I've seen some things. Not much. A woman possessed, the occassional aura, visions and weird sensations in ritual or attempts to astrally project. But these things are window dressing on what I think really matters, which is pointed to by lovely big words like sacredness, worship, honesty, consciousness, etc but is really the simplest, smallest, most essential thing that we have.

But yeah, thats my opinion. It does apply to this law of attraction thing though. If '"The Secret" is being able to have what you want when you want it.' Then I'm not sure its worth aiming for. I know very competent magicians who's rituals tdo seem to affect reality. I also know very content people who want for nothing. I know which group I want to be like.

I guess my point is that I don't want to waste my time wishing anymore. I'm happy to work to produce a happy world for myself, but I also want to rid myself of attachments to it.

Well I guess I'll just say something which I always say then, "Let people tell me what they believe and let me tell myself what I want to believe."

Do you understand what that means???







If not it means, (not to be rude) Stop saying that me believing the law of attraction is stupid or wrong! You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. You can't compress your beliefs on someone else, it just don't work like that.
However, on the debated side of it, good points I don't mind if people want to say its wrong, just stop saying its wrong to believe in it.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

While the secret was good for introducing the idea, it really didn't explain why or how this effect works. Actually they repeat themselves over and over without providing any new information. A full movie seems like overkill considering how little actual information they provide.

I think I've discovered the basic mechanism or laws as to why and how this works through dreaming. I've been trying to expand on how to apply it both in dreams and in RL in this thread.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=57283

*Note: I can't edit my initial posts in that thread, and have since included the emotional aspect as a separate rule of it's own.

If yu know that emotions are powerful then why not use the law of attraction yourself, did you know that I was doubtful like you lot before I used it? Use it man use it, you can do it!

Wow, I read from the start of this thread for about 3 pages before I got bored at reading the same arguements tossed back and forth like whoever insists their version is better the most will win.

Phew....I don't even know if I want to comment on this, lest I get pulled into the tug of war as well! Alas, my curiosity is piqued and I feel I must divlulge my own insignificant opinion on the matter.

I am a scientist at heart, but as such I tend to keep an open mind (like all good scientists should). I've seen statements used (I can't be bothered sifting through all the posts and quoting) about how these are "narrow-minded views for a community who believe in lucid dreaming", to that I say, from my perspective anyway, that it seems perfectly reasonable to be skeptical, sub-conscious lucidity has nothing to do with it; simply because lucid dreaming has been scientfically proven, studies have been taken and it is an undeniable fact. I can't say the same for those believing in dream guides, shared dreams, astral projection and the like, but we can all agree that lucid dreaming is pretty unrefutable.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with the non-believers on this one. I concede the points that positive thinking may, at some level, inspire you to do certain things to achieve your goals, that mankind as a species is naturally inclined to work towards that which we desire most. As others have said, positive thinking is a good and healthy thing to do.

However as far as "mind waves" bouncing around the universe...until you can measure this mind-wave in some way, I'm going to remain a skeptic. Yet in the spirit of keeping an open mind, I shall maintain my stance of *wanting* to believe in the spirituality of "The Secret".

It could all be true, but I think true elightenment will only come with time. Perhaps at our current state of evolution the majority of the human race is simply incapable of percieving it?

Andrew hit on the nail what I'm thinking as well.

What sort of studies have been done on this "The Secret" to prove its veridity? Naturally, people who want something will be more apt to receive it than those that don't, so how do those studies, if they exist, take that fact into account and factor it out?

Years ago, i saw this thing on TV about two groups of monkeys. some lived on the land and some lived on an island nearby (or something like that - don't remember exactly). anyway, one monkey on one side of the river discovered a way to improve his dinner by washing it in the salty water. As time went by, the others copied and started doing the same thing. And apparently, when the number of monkeys doing it on one side hit a critical amount (100 or something) then the monkeys on the other side of the water started to do it. I'm not too sure if it was a load of crap or if it's a recognised phenomena but I also remember on "tomorrows World" (for those old enough to know that series) they did an experiment involving recognising a shape amongst a bunch of dots to try and prove the same thing; that there's a shared subconciousness of some sorts. Don't know what the results were so it's a bit useless me writing this but maybe someone else knows more about those experiments. but if it's true, it would go to show that you can affect your life with intent by affecting other people.

as for the "secret", perhaps, Andrew Quaze

Originally Posted by Andrew Quaze

I am a scientist at heart

you could come up with an experiment that might show something of it's validity. any ideas?

I'm new to this forum, but totally fascinated by all the topics. I stumbled across this one and read the first two pages and jumped to the end to see the current messages.

First off, after reading the guidelines, I am surprised that this almost hostile debate was allowed to carry on.

The guidelines state: "This forum is not here so that members who feel like denouncing every topic that appears in here can do so. If you want to state your beliefs (or lack thereof) on a subject then do so in a civil and considerate manner; do not continue to create needless fights. There is no reason to continue to tell every member who posts in the Beyond Dreaming forum about astral projection [for example] that it doesn't exist. This forum is for those people who believe in that stuff to discuss it peacefully and without condemnation. Remember that."

For those of us to do believe in a topic, it would be nice be able to share our thoughts and ideas on the subject with others of like mind, without all the negativity of those who do not.

This discussion was intended as a gift. I sense that is was given from the heart. Whether you choose to accept it is your choice. Leave it and go somewhere else if you're not interested.

That being said, I now thank you Phonix for approaching this topic. The Secret, it seems, was a Pandora's box, but it is a good topic as it opened (or should have opened) discussion on the principles of The Secret and why they do or don't work.

The Secret does not tell you to stick you head in the sand and dream a perfect life and it magically appears. Although the movie seems to portray it this way, there is much more to it than the movie revealed.

This movie resonated with me because it restated certain "truths" most of us grew up with: ask, believe, receive. This comes right out of the New Testament. What stands in the way for most people is the believing part. It's hard to believe that you'll receive checks in the mail by just thinking them so, especially when you don't have enough to cover the rent or whatever. Fear of doom is far greater than the simplicity of ask, believe, receive. And yet, in its simplicity there is great power.

Let me give you an example of why I know this "Law of Attraction" works. Many years ago I was employed by Olan Mills and other studios as a photographer. I was 19, a young woman - fearless and unafraid, who travelled all over taking family portraits. People would often tell me they would be afraid to travel alone to all those places by themselves, that something bad would happen to them, but I gave it no thought. I worked, traveling in this profession for over 7 years. Traveling, alone from Alabama to Vermont during those years. I stopped counting flat tires (and empty gas tanks) after 16. Every time I had car trouble, I was either right in front of a gas station, or someone stopped immediately and helped me change my tire I never lost any time and was always merrily on my way. I was always focused on being on time to my next location. Though these are situations I didn't think of, I never focused on or feared them. I think trouble finds people who are always focused on trouble. People who fear the worse usually find it. That is also the "Law of Attraction".

This leads me to something a friend of mine told me a few month ago. She is a psycho-therapist. She said that fear is the belief that the Universe (Creative Source, God, Infinite Intelligence, etc. - your choice) will not provide all your needs (wants or desires). This made a lot of sense to me. Fear is a very powerful feeling (thought), that will in fact keep a person from believing. The Law of Attraction works in a positive way when you are free from fear. If you cannot believe fearlessly - without doubt, it simply won't work.

I came across a book recently by Dr. Joseph Murphy called the Power of Your Subconscious Mind on scribd.com (free download), that is almost a certified "how to" book on making The Secret work. The book can be purchased at Amazon, but you can download a copy of his original work at scribd. If you decide to download it, get the version with the actual book cover, not the edited versions.

In the book, he also details how people such as Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein used the power of their subconscious mind to invent and find solutions to problems that have indeed changed the world.

I think what disturbs most people about The Secret is that it fails to clearly explain that it is often through taking action on the ideas we receive is what brings about the reality of our dreams. Positivite energy has a much greater effect than negativity on making our dreams come true.

Case in point, the use of visualization in sports. Athletes are now trained to visualize themselves playing their sport, to see the outcome in advance. If there were no validity in focusing this positive energy by replaying in their minds the future outcome of a sporting event, why is it so heavily promoted. Seeing themselves win- and believing it, apparently, can make it so. Google it.

Anyway, just wanted to put in my two cents, especially since it seems so many people were so mean.

Thank you for the gift Phonix.

I daily (try to) practice the teachings I've had in what many refer to as "The Secret". Anyone more interested in the subject should look up Abraham Hicks. There you will find techniques to help you keep aligned and in good vibes.

*poof*

Originally Posted by Andrew Quaze

However as far as "mind waves" bouncing around the universe...until you can measure this mind-wave in some way, I'm going to remain a skeptic. Yet in the spirit of keeping an open mind, I shall maintain my stance of *wanting* to believe in the spirituality of "The Secret".

Who said anything about mind waves bouncing around? That's just a theory. The law of attraction works on all planes of reality, not just the mental plane. On all the other planes you can witness with your own eyes the law of attraction working. And even on the mental plane, just try it out! It wont kill you.. lol. Seriously, people try to help people out, and then theres some of them who refuse to believe it. Well guess what, you don't need to believe the law of attraction, you don't need to proof the law of attraction, if you just try it out, it will work.. as simple as that.

Instead of typing that whole post, you could have taken that time trying the law of attraction out.

Skepticism is completely pointless without action. You're wasting your time deciding what to believe, instead you could just try it out and see for yourself. First hand experience is the only thing that can truly convince you.

To me it did. I completely agree with you, ChaybaChayba, and have nothing more to voice but my agreement.