Thread: The Bridge Between Worlds

Ineteresting. I had a moment of Lucidity last night When A bag of chips manifested in front of me. Is this kind of what you are talking about?

No, not at all. Say you dream about being attacked by gangsters, and you recognize that element came form an altercation you had with some guy who listens to too much rap music and thinks he tough. Within the dream, you have a physical link to the real world, a bridge between those dream gangsters and the real world bully.

If the real world is affecting your dreams through that link, maybe you can use your dreams to affect the real world with it as well. And I don't mean by just punching out your dream gangsters.

The first step is to stop thinking of them as real gangsters, but as an archetype. I can't remember how i was doing it, but perhaps it way sort of like rewiring the archetype or, I dunno, there's something I'm missing. I need to explore this more while lucid.

I talk a lot in my dreams (not in my sleep!) and I had a conversation with a DC once about this exact thing. To be honest it was quite deep because the DC wanted to know what happened once I woke up, whether everything was gone, or whether things stayed and were just rediscovered. But he did mention that since we dream of stuff which is from the real world, could stuff from the dream world appear in the real world in any way.

It's certainly an area of interest, and as I normally take a nap at around 2-3am (I work nights and I'm on holiday this week) I might have a little play with the lucid landscape and see. May as well take advantage of the killer recall I have ATM!

@he cusp

i know what you are talking about
i experienced equal situations.

to be honest, this so called "bridge" is used by shamans for thousands of years to achieve changes in our realm. otherwise the whole shaman stuff would be nonsense

:peace:

I also agree with you cusp.

Think about it, when we go down to molecular level, everything seems to be just "Motion"

And if everything works by movement, then the frequency that our brain gives off can cause a movement and if you cause a movement, then you cause something to happen. And it so happens that while asleep, our brains are most active, so imagine the motion our brain waves cause.

I had the idea that maybe we create our dream world by what we do in real world and we create the real world by what we do in the dream world. So it is not that far-fetched considering the motion theory.

Thank you

Normally I don't believe in this schtuff but it makes me think. I'll try it when I next lucid.

Soo how would I go about doing this? Basically if I notice something in my dream that I know why it's there, I'm experimenting to see if I can have the slightest impact on it?

Originally Posted by hellohihello

Soo how would I go about doing this? Basically if I notice something in my dream that I know why it's there, I'm experimenting to see if I can have the slightest impact on it?

Beats me man. Like I said, this is something I need to experiment with more, and my lucids are few are far between these days. For all I know, this isn't even something you need to purposely do, it might be something that happens all the time in normal dreams.

I had an epic party dream a couple of days ago, reminiscent of my high school days, and this weekend my phone is ringing off the hook with people from my past trying to reconnect. Not saying that's cause and effect for sure, as this is a new concept for me, but it's something I'm considering.

I've had a dream where this girl kissed me. The next day something was set up and me and said girl kissed, it was very random.



Edit: Sorry, keep forgetting this is completely experimental and nothing is really known at the moment.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

I've had a dream where this girl kissed me. The next day something was set up and me and said girl kissed, it was very random.

Edit: Sorry, keep forgetting this is completely experimental and nothing is really known at the moment.

Don't apologize, it's relevant data.

How about creating something in real life specifically for dreaming then seeing if you could dream this item?
It could be a situation, movements, an actual physical object, a sound. Whatever really grabs your attention or moves you.

Conversely you could try dreaming what this object /thing/ activity could be.

I am just throwing ideas out. I like the idea about dreams real life crossing over. It is a subject that interests me.

I have tried the above btw. No real success with it. However I did find that i had some precog dreams that came true though. So dreaming awareness and real life did start to cross over for me in some ways.

One thing that has to be taken in consideration when experimenting with this is that the link might not necessarily be clear to see. What I mean is that you might see a dragon in a dream but that does not mean you will see one in real life, the dragon may represent something like authority, power, etc.

So that should be taken in consideration.

Good point. However, there IS some evidence that the dream world is effected by the real world, I am not so sure if it works the other way round. A week ago I had a FA, and I was in my room. I had bought a new laptop the day before (cheers) and that night, the laptop was sitting there, exactly like in the real world. The real world affecting the dream world is pretty common ( I think ) but the real problem is the dream world affecting the real world. In that case, I have only one thing to share. In my dream, I went to a rock concert. The players were playing a song that was unfamiliar to me, because I usually don't listen to rock that much. But the music of the song and some of it's lyrics stuck with me upon awakening, and I wrote them down. Two days later, one of my friends told me to check out a song, and that one was EXACTLY the same as the one I heard in the dream, except for some words in the lyrics. The amazing part is that, I have NEVER listened to that song in my life, and no one was there in my house that night, who could have been playing that song.

Well, I am not sure if this is relevant info but recently like a 2 weeks ago I had a dream that I was in some city, and like usually I remembered the scenery and everything how it looked like, I told it to one of my friend in Canada about my dream and how the town looked like and after I told her that she was like "Lunary....what the heck are you? o.o;;" and told me that I described a town in Canada and just as it was in my dream abandomed, in reality it was also abandomed, a ghost town. Then she asked me more about the city and every detail I said fitted, I never was to Canada, nor did I ever see that city, but...I somehow dreamed of the exact same town? Well...seems that the dream world is affected by reality? xD;;

Back in high school I once had a dream that I was going out with some boy. I'd never seen anyone like him before. The next day I went to school, and I saw the exact same boy (except his hair was a different color, everything else was the same). We hit it off right away and started dating a few days after that!

It seems to me that if waking life can affect dreams, then dreams can at the very least indicate a trend in waking life. Maybe it has to do with the brainwaves during sleep entering into the collective unconscious? Your SC can pull out bits of data from there that you will remember when you wake up. That is one possible explanation for dream precognition and the infamous "deja vu."

If you were able to recognize a literal link between your dream world and your reality The Cusp, to me that means that you caught a hold of a "thread" of what holds your reality together.

For example, you had in your mind that gangster who thought he was so tough? That's a piece of your reality, because you held onto it and what that means for you. In a word, his archetype means something to you. If you can literally manipulate what those archetypes mean, you have the power to literally change your reality. Just change how the archetype affects you. That would change your feeling about that piece of waking reality and, if you've heard of the butterfly affect, that can create enormous changes in your waking life.

For instance, if instead of feeling resentment toward that gangster, you decided to feel compassion for him instead, that would rearrange a whole network of mental synapsis that connected to the original meaning of "gangster." They'd all have to reevaluate that stimulus, and depending on what you changed the archetype to, they would reset themselves to pick up the new meaning instead of the old one.

A dream is the perfect place to assert that kind of direct command.

You use your brain whether you're awake or asleep - so changing it while in a dream would naturally affect your waking reality. Just be careful in how you change these things - you are messing directly with your perceived reality.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

For example, you had in your mind that gangster who thought he was so tough? That's a piece of your reality, because you held onto it and what that means for you. In a word, his archetype means something to you. If you can literally manipulate what those archetypes mean, you have the power to literally change your reality. Just change how the archetype affects you. That would change your feeling about that piece of waking reality and, if you've heard of the butterfly affect, that can create enormous changes in your waking life.

For instance, if instead of feeling resentment toward that gangster, you decided to feel compassion for him instead, that would rearrange a whole network of mental synapsis that connected to the original meaning of "gangster." They'd all have to reevaluate that stimulus, and depending on what you changed the archetype to, they would reset themselves to pick up the new meaning instead of the old one.

A dream is the perfect place to assert that kind of direct command.

You use your brain whether you're awake or asleep - so changing it while in a dream would naturally affect your waking reality. Just be careful in how you change these things - you are messing directly with your perceived reality.

Good answer, but I guess I was hoping I could effect more than my own personal perceived reality. Lets say that gangster wants to beat your head in, I can easily change the way I feel about him, but would it be possible to feel the way he feels about me? Actually, I guess I already know the answer to that. I could have a shared dream with him and rewire his archetypes the same way I would do with my own. Or perhaps insert a new archetype, with a specific focus of attention as a trigger, then all I would have to do is say or do something to set off the archetypal paths I engineered in the dream. (speaking of archetypal engineering, check out this thread http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread502051/pg1)

But from that initial dream, I got the impression I could affect events, make things happen or not happen that had nothing to do with observer's perceptions, other than my own perceptions in the dream of course. Really, that's what I don't understand about shared dreaming. Everyone experiences their own little bubble universe in RL that gets filtered through their own personal archetypes, just like shared dreaming. But what keeps it stable in reality? Maybe it's just the sheer number of people focusing on the same plane.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Good answer, but I guess I was hoping I could effect more than my own personal perceived reality. Lets say that gangster wants to beat your head in, I can easily change the way I feel about him, but would it be possible to feel the way he feels about me? Actually, I guess I already know the answer to that. I could have a shared dream with him and rewire his archetypes the same way I would do with my own. Or perhaps insert a new archetype, with a specific focus of attention as a trigger, then all I would have to do is say or do something to set off the archetypal paths I engineered in the dream. (speaking of archetypal engineering, check out this thread http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread502051/pg1)

But from that initial dream, I got the impression I could affect events, make things happen or not happen that had nothing to do with observer's perceptions, other than my own perceptions in the dream of course. Really, that's what I don't understand about shared dreaming. Everyone experiences their own little bubble universe in RL that gets filtered through their own personal archetypes, just like shared dreaming. But what keeps it stable in reality? Maybe it's just the sheer number of people focusing on the same plane.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that if you change how you feel about him, then actually you will also change how he feels about you. Think about it: If a person goes up to an animal, and they are wired to feel afraid of that animal, then the creature will probably attack him. But if someone else goes up to that same animal (for instance, think of a child raised by carnivorous wolves) who isn't wired for fear, the response of that animal will be totally different.

I don't think it's wise to try to change other people's archetypes through dreams. If anything, it strikes me as an over complication of a pretty simple concept. You change his archetype of you simply through the way you interact with him - just like the fearless child with the wolves. You won't be locked into interacting with him in a way that makes him want to beat you up... instead, because you have changed your own archetype of him, he will perceive you differently just because you interact with him in a different way. If you understand him then, in effect, you can move fluidly around his archetypes as you need to. No need to delve into his SC. I feel that introduces new dangers, as you don't know how changing one of his archetypes will rearrange the rest. Every person has a very different reality in their mind - if you change one thing, invariably you'll cause a domino effect.

As far as inserting new archetypes and triggering them, you are talking about hypnotic communication. That's what any good hypnotist does... he creates new meanings for his client, triggers them, and lets them live a happier life because of it. However, these subjects must be willing and the hypnotist needs to be professionally informed about certain mental conditions. I don't think this piece is necessary if you change how you interact with the gangster in your own psyche - he is, waking or sleeping, still a DC of yours.

What do you mean, you could make things happen beyond the observer's perceptions? I'm intrigued by that statement...

I don't believe that any body is focused on the same plane. Each person wears a different shade of colored glasses. For instance, there is no such thing as "normal," because each person subscribing to that structure has his/her own interpretation of it. So there are as many types of normal as there are people to interpret it, which means there's no such thing as normal at all. Only individuality remains. What keeps any reality "stable" is the personal belief in its reality by the person experiencing it, and so the continuation of that reality by their own mind and subsequent bodily reactions to that belief. As long as that belief continues, the reality remains as it is. However, if I go in there and change an archetype (or a belief that would modify my response to a certain thing) then the reality will be stable according to the new definitions set for it.

The only truly "stable" reality is natural reality - that is, the information stored in the nucleus of every living thing that determines how it is to live and grow. That cannot be changed by anything. It is the origin of everybody's different reality bubble experienced in LDs and RL. Only the surface details - archetypes, belief systems, etc - can change and do depending on a person's growing understanding of natural law. Is this the stability to which you were referring?

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

Actually, I'm of the opinion that if you change how you feel about him, then actually you will also change how he feels about you. Think about it: If a person goes up to an animal, and they are wired to feel afraid of that animal, then the creature will probably attack him. But if someone else goes up to that same animal (for instance, think of a child raised by carnivorous wolves) who isn't wired for fear, the response of that animal will be totally different.

Where the heck did you come from, and where did you learn so much about archetypes?

I'm completely agreeing with everything you've said so far, but in your example with the animal, that still requires an active emotional participation at the time of the encounter. I do agree that strong emotions play a powerful role in shaping your environment, and are the best way to control DCs in dreams or RL, but in keeping with the original topic, is there a way to do this solely from within the sleeping dream that would require no further participation in the waking world?

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I don't think it's wise to try to change other people's archetypes through dreams. If anything, it strikes me as an over complication of a pretty simple concept. You change his archetype of you simply through the way you interact with him - just like the fearless child with the wolves. You won't be locked into interacting with him in a way that makes him want to beat you up... instead, because you have changed your own archetype of him, he will perceive you differently just because you interact with him in a different way. If you understand him then, in effect, you can move fluidly around his archetypes as you need to. No need to delve into his SC. I feel that introduces new dangers, as you don't know how changing one of his archetypes will rearrange the rest. Every person has a very different reality in their mind - if you change one thing, invariably you'll cause a domino effect.

Again I agree. When someone is focused on one particular archetype, the only possible outcomes that can come from it are that archetype's associations. By distracting your "opponent" with a new archetype, you can change and control the possible outcomes of any give situation. But again I'm curious if there is a way to do this within a dream that requires no further interaction with said opponent.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

As far as inserting new archetypes and triggering them, you are talking about hypnotic communication. That's what any good hypnotist does... he creates new meanings for his client, triggers them, and lets them live a happier life because of it. However, these subjects must be willing and the hypnotist needs to be professionally informed about certain mental conditions. I don't think this piece is necessary if you change how you interact with the gangster in your own psyche - he is, waking or sleeping, still a DC of yours.

Here I disagree somewhat. I don't think it's willingness of the individual, but how stable and well established the archetype being used is. For instance there isn't much variation in the archtype of something like Jesus no matter what your personal beliefs are, whereas the archetype of "death" is a big unknown, not stable in the least, which is why many people wake up when they dream of dying. Reliable dream control stems from using stable archetypes, not chaotic ones.

Like that link I posted previously, it's about a news paper that constantly ran headlines using knife archetypes such as "Knives come out for so and so". This led to a dramatic increase in knife related crimes. A gun archetype is more stable than a jet plane tank or rocket launcher, a knife is more stable than a gun, and wrestling is more stable than a knife. Using the better established archetypes in dreams grants better odds of successful control.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

What do you mean, you could make things happen beyond the observer's perceptions? I'm intrigued by that statement...

I mean that maybe I could fix it so that I find some money laying in the street without having to actually interact with someone in the real world. True, I'm still tweaking my own perception/reality to make that happen, but someone else still has to drop it, someone I haven't directly interacted with in the waking world.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I don't believe that any body is focused on the same plane. Each person wears a different shade of colored glasses. For instance, there is no such thing as "normal," because each person subscribing to that structure has his/her own interpretation of it. So there are as many types of normal as there are people to interpret it, which means there's no such thing as normal at all. Only individuality remains. What keeps any reality "stable" is the personal belief in its reality by the person experiencing it, and so the continuation of that reality by their own mind and subsequent bodily reactions to that belief. As long as that belief continues, the reality remains as it is. However, if I go in there and change an archetype (or a belief that would modify my response to a certain thing) then the reality will be stable according to the new definitions set for it.

I guess I was referring to Castaneda's model of the world. The difference between realities you can experience when you are happy or sad or angry are only slight shifts in perception. He suggests you can make a major shift and change worlds completely. I don't want to go into detail on that right now, but you really should read Carlos Castaneda's books, especially with your understanding of archetypes.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

The only truly "stable" reality is natural reality - that is, the information stored in the nucleus of every living thing that determines how it is to live and grow. That cannot be changed by anything. It is the origin of everybody's different reality bubble experienced in LDs and RL. Only the surface details - archetypes, belief systems, etc - can change and do depending on a person's growing understanding of natural law. Is this the stability to which you were referring?

But there is a duality involved. I propose that the dream state is the waveform counterpart to everyday solid particle reality. The stability I don't quite understand comes from my belief that waking reality really is a dream, as evidenced by the methods of control working the same in dreams or while awake. I just don't get why the waking world seems so stable, or how I can loosen that stability so that I can fly like I do in dreams.

BTW, you might want to check out my "Nature of Dream Control" thread, because you already have a good understanding of everything I tried to cover in it. http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=57283

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Where the heck did you come from, and where did you learn so much about archetypes?

If I tell you, I'd have to kill you.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I'm completely agreeing with everything you've said so far, but in your example with the animal, that still requires an active emotional participation at the time of the encounter. I do agree that strong emotions play a powerful role in shaping your environment, and are the best way to control DCs in dreams or RL, but in keeping with the original topic, is there a way to do this solely from within the sleeping dream that would require no further participation in the waking world?

I do not believe this is possible. The simple explanation is, you cannot have one world without the other. There is that duality principle you mentioned later involved here... to make progress, both your dream self and your physical self must overcome the same trial. That is, if you make the change in your dream world, the same transition must be made in reality. There is no avoiding one's trials by dodging into one world or the other. If you do not incorporate both realities, you cannot move forward.

The reasoning behind this is simple. It is my impression that here you are attempting to avoid a possible emotional entanglement with this fellow. I feel that the point of your relationship with him IS this very contention - if I may be so bold, you are experiencing this because you must resolve it. Changing the archetypes in your subconscious mind will change your outlook, but physically, you must take that step forward for something to happen in RL. Waking life is defined by action. Change all the brain and SC circuitry you want, you still haven't taken physical action to change the situation based upon your modifications. If in your mind he is still your 'opponent,' I suspect that the emotional charge you harbor is still too strong to let him pass out of your reality space altogether anyway.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Here I disagree somewhat. I don't think it's willingness of the individual, but how stable and well established the archetype being used is. For instance there isn't much variation in the archtype of something like Jesus no matter what your personal beliefs are, whereas the archetype of "death" is a big unknown, not stable in the least, which is why many people wake up when they dream of dying. Reliable dream control stems from using stable archetypes, not chaotic ones.

We may be talking about two different things here. My understanding of your use of the Gangster may not fully correspond to your intention. In any case, you make a good point, but I still contend that none of that is possible without the consent of the individual. He wouldn't even begin to buy into your archetype if he didn't like you or have some other reason or motivation to listen to you intently. He'd much sooner punch you in the face than let you weave something on him. Once a link of trust is established, however, the strength of the archetypes can be fully conveyed for the desired effect. I agree with your exposition on the strength of archetypes otherwise.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I mean that maybe I could fix it so that I find some money laying in the street without having to actually interact with someone in the real world. True, I'm still tweaking my own perception/reality to make that happen, but someone else still has to drop it, someone I haven't directly interacted with in the waking world.

That is a possibility, though I never considered the means you are employing. I haven't researched the subject fully enough to give you a good answer.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I guess I was referring to Castaneda's model of the world. The difference between realities you can experience when you are happy or sad or angry are only slight shifts in perception. He suggests you can make a major shift and change worlds completely. I don't want to go into detail on that right now, but you really should read Carlos Castaneda's books, especially with your understanding of archetypes.

I have read some of Castaneda's work. I do not recall the name of the book, but I do remember his frequent reference to peyote. I agree that such major shifts happen. However, I feel that you've left a great deal of the complexities of the human mind out of it. Perhaps this is simply because you haven't gone into detail. But I would like to point out that "happiness" and "sadness" are but two small effects with a cavalcade of causes. What you have called "slight shifts" in perception may not be so slight as you'd think.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

But there is a duality involved. I propose that the dream state is the waveform counterpart to everyday solid particle reality. The stability I don't quite understand comes from my belief that waking reality really is a dream, as evidenced by the methods of control working the same in dreams or while awake. I just don't get why the waking world seems so stable, or how I can loosen that stability so that I can fly like I do in dreams. BTW, you might want to check out my "Nature of Dream Control" thread, because you already have a good understanding of everything I tried to cover in it. http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=57283

Are you familiar with the work of a man named Gurdjieff? I think you may find his explanation on the order of the cosmos interesting. I do not feel that it is possible to attain that kind of power through lucid dreaming alone. It can be used as an aid, most definitely. But alone it's influence doesn't extend far enough. Again, it requires more physical action than lucid dreaming can supply to create that kind of change. I also feel that the matter is overcomplicated by this idea of trying to "loosen" the structure of reality itself. There must definitely be an easier way than reweaving the tapestry of the universe yourself. That's all I have to say about the subject - we have discussed many ideas, but I still don't know you well enough as a person to continue along that line.

Sure, I'll have a look at this other thread. You really gave me a run for my money with that last post! lol It's a pleasure to meet you The Cusp!

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I do not believe this is possible. The simple explanation is, you cannot have one world without the other. There is that duality principle you mentioned later involved here... to make progress, both your dream self and your physical self must overcome the same trial. That is, if you make the change in your dream world, the same transition must be made in reality. There is no avoiding one's trials by dodging into one world or the other. If you do not incorporate both realities, you cannot move forward.

I think it's possible for the very same reason. A change in RL will affect your dreams, a change in the dream world could affect you perception of RL. It was just an idea that came from a vaguely remembered abstract dream, but I'm not willing to dismiss it without further experimentation.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

It is my impression that here you are attempting to avoid a possible emotional entanglement with this fellow.

That was just a theoretical example, could have been anything.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I still contend that none of that is possible without the consent of the individual. He wouldn't even begin to buy into your archetype if he didn't like you or have some other reason or motivation to listen to you intently. He'd much sooner punch you in the face than let you weave something on him.

My personal archetypes would be irrelevant against him in that situation. His archetypes are the only thing that matter in his world. I'm wouldn't be trying to superimpose mine onto his, but rather use his own against him. One of the things I've learned from shared dreaming is that you can't harm someone in a dream directly, you can only trick them into harming themselves. And by harm I mean distract their attention.

It's like how I understand voodoo fetishes to work to put a curse on someone. They contain a theatrical element to capture the attention, and some sort of dark archetype like bones or death to steer the outcome of focusing on such a dark thing.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

That is a possibility, though I never considered the means you are employing. I haven't researched the subject fully enough to give you a good answer.

Like I said, just an idea I had that is still in it's infancy. I'm a long ways from providing any answers myself.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I have read some of Castaneda's work ... I agree that such major shifts happen. However, I feel that you've left a great deal of the complexities of the human mind out of it. Perhaps this is simply because you haven't gone into detail.

You're right. We've already covered too much ground to open up that can of worms.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

Are you familiar with the work of a man named Gurdjieff? I think you may find his explanation on the order of the cosmos interesting. I do not feel that it is possible to attain that kind of power through lucid dreaming alone. It can be used as an aid, most definitely. But alone it's influence doesn't extend far enough. Again, it requires more physical action than lucid dreaming can supply to create that kind of change.

I'll look into Gurdjieff. Perhaps you're underestimating lucid dreaming. I think it has it's real world counterpart that can play an important role. Most people mistakenly assume they always have free will, but I think it's limited to those rare lucid moments. And of course there's my belief that reality is just a dream. The only differences that I can see are the number of people you share it with, and that whole stability thing.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I also feel that the matter is overcomplicated by this idea of trying to "loosen" the structure of reality itself. There must definitely be an easier way than reweaving the tapestry of the universe yourself. That's all I have to say about the subject - we have discussed many ideas, but I still don't know you well enough as a person to continue along that line.

I don't think a complete reweave is necessary, only that you manage to free yourself from that tapestry. But I don't have many solid ideas on the matter, it's the mystery I'm currently ruminating on.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

It's a pleasure to meet you The Cusp!

Likewise!

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I do not believe this is possible. The simple explanation is, you cannot have one world without the other. There is that duality principle you mentioned later involved here... to make progress, both your dream self and your physical self must overcome the same trial. That is, if you make the change in your dream world, the same transition must be made in reality. There is no avoiding one's trials by dodging into one world or the other. If you do not incorporate both realities, you cannot move forward.

I think it's possible for the very same reason. A change in RL will affect your dreams, a change in the dream world could affect you perception of RL. It was just an idea that came from a vaguely remembered abstract dream, but I'm not willing to dismiss it without further experimentation.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

It is my impression that here you are attempting to avoid a possible emotional entanglement with this fellow.

That was just a theoretical example, could have been anything.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I still contend that none of that is possible without the consent of the individual. He wouldn't even begin to buy into your archetype if he didn't like you or have some other reason or motivation to listen to you intently. He'd much sooner punch you in the face than let you weave something on him.

My personal archetypes would be irrelevant against him in that situation. His archetypes are the only thing that matter in his world. I'm wouldn't be trying to superimpose mine onto his, but rather use his own against him. One of the things I've learned from shared dreaming is that you can't harm someone in a dream directly, you can only trick them into harming themselves. And by harm I mean distract their attention.

It's like how I understand voodoo fetishes to work to put a curse on someone. They contain a theatrical element to capture the attention, and some sort of dark archetype like bones or death to steer the outcome of focusing on such a dark thing.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

That is a possibility, though I never considered the means you are employing. I haven't researched the subject fully enough to give you a good answer.

Like I said, just an idea I had that is still in it's infancy. I'm a long ways from providing any answers myself.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I have read some of Castaneda's work ... I agree that such major shifts happen. However, I feel that you've left a great deal of the complexities of the human mind out of it. Perhaps this is simply because you haven't gone into detail.

You're right. We've already covered too much ground to open up that can of worms.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

Are you familiar with the work of a man named Gurdjieff? I think you may find his explanation on the order of the cosmos interesting. I do not feel that it is possible to attain that kind of power through lucid dreaming alone. It can be used as an aid, most definitely. But alone it's influence doesn't extend far enough. Again, it requires more physical action than lucid dreaming can supply to create that kind of change.

I'll look into Gurdjieff.

But perhaps you're underestimating lucid dreaming. I think it has it's real world counterpart that can play an important role. Most people mistakenly assume they always have free will, but I think it's limited to those rare lucid moments. And of course there's my belief that reality is just a dream. The only differences that I can see are the number of people you share it with, and that whole stability thing. But that stability does seem to break down on occasion, if certain reports of paranormal activity are to be believed.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

I also feel that the matter is overcomplicated by this idea of trying to "loosen" the structure of reality itself. There must definitely be an easier way than reweaving the tapestry of the universe yourself. That's all I have to say about the subject - we have discussed many ideas, but I still don't know you well enough as a person to continue along that line.

I don't think a complete reweave is necessary, only that you manage to free yourself from that tapestry. But I don't have many solid ideas on the matter, it's the mystery I'm currently ruminating on.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

It's a pleasure to meet you The Cusp!

Likewise!

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I think it's possible for the very same reason. A change in RL will affect your dreams, a change in the dream world could affect you perception of RL. It was just an idea that came from a vaguely remembered abstract dream, but I'm not willing to dismiss it without further experimentation.

Yes, further experimentation may be necessary. I wouldn't dismiss it either, there are more possibilities to be explored under that presumption. From my own experiences, I would suggest not to underestimate physical action. To me, the dream world is but a microcosm of the 3 dimensional world we inhabit physically - rearranging the microcosmic bits in an LD will naturally stir changes in its macrocosm. However, creating lasting or massive changes in that macrocosm may need to happen from forces in the same dimension or from another dimension yet larger. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by The Cusp

My personal archetypes would be irrelevant against him in that situation. His archetypes are the only thing that matter in his world. I'm wouldn't be trying to superimpose mine onto his, but rather use his own against him. One of the things I've learned from shared dreaming is that you can't harm someone in a dream directly, you can only trick them into harming themselves. And by harm I mean distract their attention.

It's like how I understand voodoo fetishes to work to put a curse on someone. They contain a theatrical element to capture the attention, and some sort of dark archetype like bones or death to steer the outcome of focusing on such a dark thing.

I have also found this to be true. Again, it brings my mind to hypnosis. Or even advertising. They also make heavy use of archetypes to cause another person to take action in the desired direction through distraction and remobilization, though perhaps with less crudeness as voodoo has traditionally employed. By crudeness, of course, I mean relics of death. Toying with the mental archetypes of the masses make it very easy to gain power over them. This makes me curious as to your intentions with this knowledge. Are you drawn to this for spiritual or physical reasons?

Originally Posted by The Cusp

But perhaps you're underestimating lucid dreaming. I think it has it's real world counterpart that can play an important role. Most people mistakenly assume they always have free will, but I think it's limited to those rare lucid moments. And of course there's my belief that reality is just a dream. The only differences that I can see are the number of people you share it with, and that whole stability thing. But that stability does seem to break down on occasion, if certain reports of paranormal activity are to be believed.

I will allow that there may be more to lucid dreaming than I have yet encountered. Each dream archetype does contain a real world counterpart. However, that real world counterpart is also contained within you, so changing the archetypes in a lucid dream are great for changing your own mind. Because it is your own perception of the object that you are altering, it seems to me unlikely that the physical object in itself would change unless you've supplemented your physical being to allow those changes to happen through it. This idea is sort of like downloading a lot of programs for your computer, but never updating your operating system to be compatible in order to run your new programs. There are definitely physical processes that must be understood and considered. Lucid dreaming is a powerful tool, but I do not feel that it is the entire answer unto itself.

Free will is only as limited as the person himself. It sounds like you have considered this as well.

Think about this: if this reality is but a dream, who's mind are you in? If in an LD you are within your own mind, but a sublet, it makes me think that waking reality is but a sublet of a larger mind. To master lucid dreaming, you must understand certain principles about your mind and focus your discipline to achieve that goal. The same rule, in my mind, applies to the waking world. Yes, it is another dream. But the rules of this larger Real Life mind are expanded as compared to those in the localized mind you delve into in sleep.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

To me, the dream world is but a microcosm of the 3 dimensional world we inhabit physically - rearranging the microcosmic bits in an LD will naturally stir changes in its macrocosm. However, creating lasting or massive changes in that macrocosm may need to happen from forces in the same dimension or from another dimension yet larger. Does that make sense?

To me they are one and the same, that duality I mentioned earlier. THe trick is realizing it and working it into your conception of reality. Not something I want to get into right now.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

Are you drawn to this for spiritual or physical reasons?

Is total world domination spiritual or physical? But seriously, to me it's the only thing worth learning.

Originally Posted by flyinghawkins

Think about this: if this reality is but a dream, who's mind are you in?

I've had certain dreams that lead me to believe that all matter is conscious at some level, and is working towards greater consciousness. I've even gleaned the mind of god in some dreams. You're bringing up too much for me to cover in a single post. You've covered several aspects that deserve their own essays or books. My primary interest has always been control. I've never been satisfied with how the accepted dream control methods randomly fail. Hence my Nature of Dream Control thread.

The Cusp:
What you are describing is the foundation of the indigenous Australian's concept of The Dreamtime.

For them, our reality was created out of The Dreamtime and exists even now as a mere shadow of it. Dreamers (as opposed to dreamers) have the ability to walk in the Dreamtime in order to specifically effect change in this reality and/or to gain understanding of this reality by observing it from a perspective not possible from this side of the Veil.

SonatArtica is also correct. Dreaming is a fundamental practice of indigenous Medicine people all over the world, not just Australia. Bushmen in Africa, Maori in New Zealand and many Native North American peoples all use Dreaming practices in Healing and other work.

I follow a Native American Tradition myself and Lucid Dreaming is a fundamental aspect of my Path and a tool I use regularly to make changes for people in this reality.

This is an interesting thread, definitely something to think about and play with while dreaming. Lets see what links I can find?

And for your question why is this waking reality stable, well if you're going on the belief that waking reality is just a giant shared dream - the answer isn't necessarily the human population (that's a factor though). There is a lot of consciousness on the earth besides just humans. And a lot of consciousness of which was here long before we tiny humans.