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    Thread: Lucid Dreaming Book Club (August)

    1. #1
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      Lucid Dreaming Book Club (August)

      Our new selection for this month is Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach. (Suggested by Sageous)

      I found these sources online if you need help accessing the book:

      PDF: https://denver-psychic.com/wp-conten.../Illusions.pdf

      Audiobook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX8v...L&index=2&t=0s

      When discussing this book, especially as it is a fiction, please use spoiler tags with the chapter you're discussing in the title of the spoiler.


      Happy reading!
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    2. #2
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      Thanks for the links MoonageDaydream! Will start reading soon, and looking forward to it. I haven't read it before but did read Jonathan Livingston Seagull as a kid and loved it.
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      "When you see the shadows falling,
      When you hear that cold wind calling,
      Hold on tight to your dream."
      -ELO

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      Quote Originally Posted by nautilus View Post
      Thanks for the links MoonageDaydream! Will start reading soon, and looking forward to it. I haven't read it before but did read Jonathan Livingston Seagull as a kid and loved it.
      You're more than welcome.

      It seems like a very short book (2 1/2 hour audiobook), so that's nice. I'll be starting within a week or so, I am almost done with Tibetan Yoga...

    4. #4
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      Ok, I think I'll give it a try... but first I need to review the reason why I'm not excited about it (express my negative attitude and maybe focus on the positives).

      Spoiler for Jonathan Livingston Seagull:
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 08-12-2020 at 05:28 PM.

    5. #5
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      ^^ Good points all, OccipitalRed, but be assured that Illusions is not Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

      JLS is basically just a feel-good book for folks who feel like powerless, unremarkable members of a large equally unremarkable flock. I don't think JLS was ever meant by Bach to be deep -- all that came later when intellectuals tried to figure out why it sold so well.

      I think you will find Illusions more interesting, especially if you read from the viewpoint of a lucid dreamer.
      Last edited by Sageous; 08-12-2020 at 05:44 PM.

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      Thank you Sageous, I'm definitely in a better mood now to get into Illusions and I'll make sure to read it from the viewpoint of a lucid dreamer!
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      I finished Illusions.

      Spoiler for the whole book!:
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 08-27-2020 at 04:19 AM.

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      That's an interesting take Occipitalred, though... oh, wait, this must be a Spoiler moment...

      Spoiler for Brief response:
      Last edited by Sageous; 08-27-2020 at 06:03 PM.

    9. #9
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      I apologize for not setting up the next month's poll. I did not see these posts, and thought no one else had read the book! Now I see that I was wrong. I will set up the next month's poll thread today.

      I finished this today. I thought it was a great book. Here is my review from Goodreads:

      Spoiler for End:


      My favorite quote from the book:

      Spoiler for Quote:


      I will read the posts in this thread soon, when I have a bit more time, I can see they are quite long!
      Last edited by MoonageDaydream; 09-06-2020 at 11:02 PM.
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    10. #10
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      Sorry for the late response. I did finish reading this quite a while back but I got wrapped up in a new project I'm working on.


      Spoiler for General Thoughts on Illusions and JLS:


      Spoiler for Semi-Related Philosophical Tangent:


      Spoiler for Favorite Quotes from Illusions:
      "When you see the shadows falling,
      When you hear that cold wind calling,
      Hold on tight to your dream."
      -ELO

    11. #11
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      Hi guys, I am late here but this book was a favorite of mine in the 80s. As far as the book I found it fun and light. I loved the first pages that looked like they where written in ink. That was really funny. I also feel the message has merit but is fanciful as far as levitating wrenches goes.
      Occipitalred, I always love reading your thoughts! You take so much time and express yourself in a way I can relate to. Often when I see a wall of text I can not finish it and just scan for the big picture, but your thoughts are well worth careful reading. Thanks.


      The next part will sound like it should go in the Beyond Dreaming section. I am going to, in this one case speak with authority that will seem arrogant to some. I always make statements that allow people to maintain their points and usually add stuff like "while I believe these things, feel free to assume I have some sort of delusion". That takes up too much mental energy. Forgive me. I will just bullet some things to perhaps help you guys sort out the magic stuff that seems like wishful thinking BS.

      -I experience magic comparable to works of fiction on a daily basis. Much of what happens around me is on the minor miracle level. The people close to me have had all doubt removed from seeing overwhelmingly obvious things repeated over decades.
      -This is not a random thing. It is the results of yogic discipline and a relationship with "the divine". (see guys, obnoxiously arrogant. No one is allowed to talk this way. However, in this little book club I doubt anyone but you guys will see it, so this time I think it is ok)
      -this BS sounding crap coming from a stranger should be held in deep suspicion, it sounds like a teen begging to get attention. Simply judge that in most of your dealings with me I seem sober, educated and logical, not like a teen.
      -to my knowledge things like levitating a wrench is not possible but it makes a good book. The real magic will always have a way to reason it out. It can always be written off by a doubter. A man can have extraordinary luck ten times in a row and you can say "random chance will occasionally have this happen". A woman can seemingly react to things people were thinking or act in a way that is bizarrely fortunate considering what ended up happening and you can always say "given random chance..." A person can have a fish jump into the boat with them after joking it could happen and of course "given random chance..." At that point a doubter is free to wait for something that breaks the laws of physics before calling it magical, but they will be waiting for ever. My son (met him at 14 years old) could not understand. What good is this magic you teach if I can never prove it to someone else? He wanted to be different and better than others, to stand apart as special and able to do something they would be in awe of. He has learned better in the last 15 years.
      -While this is an illusion that is basically a dream it is not actually a shared dream where we each form it with our beliefs. It is more like a video game in that while not real you simply can not jump Sonic over this gap. By most doubters logic, if this is an illusion then walking through walls and such is the proof they need. Same logic applied to a video game: If this game is not real life I can will Sonic to make it over this gap- never going to happen, but the game is not real life- same thing.
      -The truth is the dream is mostly coming from something far far above us. That is why I mentioned a deep connection with the divine. You will be limited in how much change you can make with out help from the forces above you. That should make some mad.
      -One understanding of Enlightment is simply seeing the true nature of reality and grasping the way to deal with life based on that. Not only are all of our perception effected by how we feel or believe, but also the fact that the world itself is illusion.

      Here I will stop rambling as far as setting up the basis for my next points. The book was about this guy having extraordinary 'powers' because of an awareness he has. People try to 'believe' fanciful things and nothing happens. Here is why.

      -These equations have a variable I will generically call energy.

      -The laws of physics are like the software itself. Perhaps Earth's gravity is expressed as 10 to 1,000,000,000,000 power as far as the energy needed to over write it. It is intended to be immutable. Some things are not, such as what the weather will be doing in ten minutes. A rain storm ten minutes from now when you know the satellite says no clouds anywhere is again asking to displace physics, but the rain stopping in this small section of the valley long enough for me to walk to the store is not displacing physics. It is just highly improbable. Perhaps achieving such a highly improbable outcome when I want it takes 10,000 energy. It would be amazing if it only stopped raining with in a mile of me just as I walk to the store, then cut loose while I was in the store and paused again when I walked home, but not in anyway over writing an immutable law. A doubter could definitely say "yes, but given random chance..." Who cares what they say if I get to go to the store with out getting wet.

      -You do not get 10,000 energy (making up numbers for helping visualization of concept). Sorry you don't get 10,000 energy. In this system (made up for the explanation) a base level human gets 1 energy. Try as much as you wish, then say it is all BS, because your 1 energy was never going to provide the effect.(You in this case not meant to be hurtful. If you are the exception, sorry to lump "you" in here)

      -You can get more energy. Think of dream control. If you do not believe something can happen (flying) it will not. This is your 1 energy. Maybe it takes 10 energy to fly. In LDing you can get up to that 10 energy by honestly believing the thing is possible. Back to waking life and this energy. So let's say those who can honestly believe such things can happen now get 10 energy. They are 10 times as influential in things energy can affect than others. Back to LDing. If instead you KNOW flying is possible because you have experienced it 20 times let's say you have 100 energy and now fancy flight is fairly easy. So in life TRUE knowledge of this stuff say brings you up to 100 energy.

      -Sorry 100 energy is not enough to cause rain to not fall with in a mile of you while the rest of the valley is getting soaked. "Darn it I saw him do a miracle, I honestly KNOW this is possible, yet I still can not do this!" That does not mean it is not real, you are just 100 fold short of the energy needed for it to happen.

      -Mystical training in any one of the energy systems can improve the amount of this energy you can generate. You start Kundalini or Chi training and by the time 30 years have passed you say can now generate 1,000 energy. Still falling short of the rain thing, but perhaps many other fantastic things happen to you, such as high level of intuition, random good fortune, and animals responding in a charmed way to you. Still a whole life and no where near the 10,000 mark!

      -Once started on this path it is easier to find the path next time and you start with a higher base level of energy. Eventually you will have done this path many times. The level of energy you can reach may be 10,000 by the time you are 30. This is terrible! It means you may not be able to make cool things happen even though you try your whole life! Yeah, where are you going? This multiple lives stuff goes on for thousands of lives, 10s of thousands, infinite? May as well get started, time (lives) will pass.

      -Perhaps a miracle such as the sky tearing a gash in the cloud directly above you during a massive storm and a rainbow shining through while you are dry and 1000 feet away a torrent of water hits the ground takes 1,000,000 power. Truth is you are likely never going to reach 1,000,000 power while young enough to still bother manifesting in this world as a human. That is where Higher Power comes in.

      -If a Higher Power knows you and likes you it can amplify your power say 1,000 fold. Now with a base of say 1,000 power (attainable in one life) it is enough for a miracle to happen assuming the Higher Power has some reason to care about you.

      -These Higher Powers (The Divine) are attracted to 3 things. Those who help themselves, so someone who say reaches 1,000 power. Those that call out to them (think Dream Guide). Those who are honorable and good (don't get involved with one's that don't like that, lol) This is why it has always been people of religion who have had stories told about miracles. They believe (10) they experience it (100) they meditate and learn internal discipline for decades (1,000). They have probably been at this a long time, lives (10,000) They try to be honorable and good and call out to The Divine and have that help that gives a thousand fold (10,000,000).

      This thread is not about the magical nature of mystics explained by some guy. It is about the book Illusions and also mentioned JLS. In that book the idea is put forth that this is an illusion and if you truly grasp that, fantastic things can happen. I enjoyed it because to me it was just a neat way of expressing things I honestly experience and believe. My whole long rambling essay is just to give you guys my perspective on how it is possible and why for most everyone it is not attainable on a level you will find conclusive, today. It is simplistic for these books to suggest "believe and anything is possible." It is also fantasy to talk about levitating wrenches in my understanding. I think the better message is "if you honestly believe, then things start to be possible, and with training through a mystic energy art many more things become possible." But that is not a very instant gratification, fun basis for a book if you want it to sell. Notice best selling mystical books always give a fantasy way teens can imagine they could be doing this stuff by next year. Harry is secretly a wizard of amazing strength. He did not study harder than anyone else for 20 years and then was an amazing hero. Books use phrases like "The Chosen One" to give teens the fantasy that they too could suddenly be amazing. Super heroes get bit by a spider or find a magic ring. That is why I like Batman. He goes out and learns to fight, he lifts weights and earns his skill through 20+ years of sweat. I do not expect you guys to believe a word of what I have said or to believe I am not an attention seeker but I do hope at least one person who reads this will see why you not experiencing miraculous things through the simple power of belief does not mean the stuff is not real, and that the mystical stuff never breaks the laws of physics though it may appear to. In conclusion: Books like this must exaggerate the nature of the powers (floating wrenches) and must make it sound like it is possible you can get their soon to appeal to the masses and therefore should be forgiven that embellishment. Everyone wants their book to sell. Still I found the core of what is taught in the book and JLS to be worthy of reflection.

      Thanks guys for allowing me to speak openly about something I keep on the down low in general. I doubt very many people will find this, so maybe the amount of "He's crazy" will be very limited.
      Last edited by Sivason; 02-27-2021 at 07:59 AM.
      Peace Be With You. Oh, and sure, The Force too, why not.



      "Instruction in Dream Yoga"

    12. #12
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      ^ Long read but I found it inspiring. I think you're onto something here. I also think emotion may be a factor at play, as a type of energy. I suspect it can help with manifesting, especially when you're feeling a loving kindness high vibe kind of feeling.
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      Check out the Lucid Dreaming Book Club: July-August
      Have a suggestion? Book Club Suggestion Thread

    13. #13
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      Retrospective of Jonathan Livingston Seagull and Reluctant Messiah

      Hey, it's been a while but I've been thinking and was brought back to these stories. I feel I need to give a second review.

      Context: I've been going through some visualizations of mine. I won't go too deep into it but it was about going to Avalon. This last year, I read Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. It is an exploration of the Arthurian myth from the perspective of the female characters. In the story, as Christian belief becomes dominant and pagan beliefs are rejected, Avalon, home to pagan witches and druids across the Lake of the Lady fades from the collective reality. But it does stay accessible to those who know the way and there remains a community there. Anyway, in my visualization, I was going to this place to heal from the wounds inflicted by thoughts. I figured most of the pain that burdens me are thoughts that if I let go, will go as easily as that. Untactful comments from people mostly. Another pain I feel is about the rejection of my thoughts and values. When other people don't think my way. It does make me feel isolated. And anyway, meditating about these two types of pain related to thoughts/ideas/values, I felt drawn to heal in Avalon, a fading place. I realized that the metaphor felt really appropriate. Avalon is kind of like a metaphor for the place where my ideas and values are valued. It's a place where my thoughts can feel validated. A place where the negative judgements don't care to follow. Somewhere where I can feel a sense of peace and validation. It also works to say that this place (these ideas and values) can be found by other like-minded people. So even if everyone rejects my values around me, I am not really alone there. In Mist of Avalon, other places fade from the world as they fade from people's memory. So it's not just about a hierarchy of which values are better. It's really about what ideas are in the consciousness of people. And even on Avalon, there are people who have fade even further from the world that you may come across only if you are in the right state of mind and receptive to that place. Anyway, so that spoke to me

      And it reminded me of Jonathan Livingston Seagull. First of all, in Reluctant Messiah, he is the character in the story. It seems like he wrote about a daydream. And he writes about Jonathan the Seagull like a pilot too. So, I think it's fair to read it as a daydream. And Sageous did tell me to read it like a lucid dream. Reading Jonathan Seagull as a daydream, I can now imagine the other universes he visits to be like Avalon in Mists of Avalon. Like places of shared ideas and values, faded from the collective world.

      I think that spiritual people, we struggle to communicate our ideas with the common person in our lives. Anyway, most people who like to discuss spirituality in my life claim there is very very few people they can talk about these things with, and they seem to exclude other people who are spiritual people because of lack of agreement. Even outside of spirituality, I also know many people who feel there are little people with their values in their social circles and feel alienated in that way.

      So, my new perspective of Jonathan is that he feels alienated from his community (they care about practicality whereas he is more spiritually inclined. He enjoys the intrinsic value of flight). He is shunned/he recedes in himself where he daydreams about his thoughts and values. Like me, he visualizes going to Avalon, where others' judgements don't follow, where his ideas are validated, where he knows others go too. With this new sense of belonging, he daydreams about what such people might teach him. And perhaps it is not only a daydream. Maybe he really finds a community of like-minded people with whom he shares, learns, teaches, feel love, feel belonging and community.

      And in this daydream, he must go back to the original colony because well, some things are unavoidable. The original community is our family or work community or social circles where we go back to but we might not agree on ideas and values. And the original colony attack his fellow seagulls that think like him. To me, it's a metaphor of the social status quo ideas and values hurting the people of our community, especially our spiritual values in this case. Perhaps, being perceived as lunatics/ungrounded for example. Since it's a daydream, this verbal violence is represented by physical violence. In reality, it's likely that Bach and his group don't face physical threat in real life. So, in his daydream, he can lucid daydream and realizing the timelessness/spacelessness of daydreaming, he is free to simply heal the handicapped seagull back to health. Probably by focusing on his knowledge that other people's prejudice will not break his body and that he is in fact safe, physically, from the attacks. In a way, the sense of love from this inner community might be enough to feel healed from the wider societal prejudice, in the context of Bach's life.

      Following with Reluctant Messiah, I can also read it as a lucid daydream. Bach is going about his life and he imagines a character that can get him thinking. Get him to lucid daydream. To go back on the levitating wrench, I can imagine Bach was not impressed because it's easy to daydream something flying. But Don started to become more serious to him as he started to show him he could daydream about crazier things. Daydreaming about driving your car backwards through traffic is a bit more challenging because it really goes against strong expectations. I guess he realizes, in his daydream, that he can change things that he takes for granted.

      Anyway, I think those things were already said by others in their own words but I at least wanted to come and say I enjoyed thinking back at those stories from the point of view of daydreams and finding a place where our own ideas and values have a place.

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