Thread: Lucid Dreaming Book Club (July)

Excellent idea; and a nice choice for the first book (hopefully off many!).

Thanks. I was thinking, to keep it self-paced (and therefore more accessible to all), we could use spoiler tags labelled with the chapter we're discussing.

Example:

Spoiler for Chapter 1 (not really):

So if I was done reading chapter 1 and wanted to say something about it, I would do this. See?

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

Thanks. I was thinking, to keep it self-paced (and therefore more accessible to all), we could use spoiler tags labelled with the chapter we're discussing.

Example:

Spoiler for Chapter 1 (not really):

So if I was done reading chapter 1 and wanted to say something about it, I would do this. See?

well...at least I learned how to spoil it now!

I love this, I'm supposed to get the book in the mail tomorrow! I'm going to start reading it right away

Awesome idea, I'm in

Originally Posted by nautilus

Awesome idea, I'm in

Welcome aboard!

Originally Posted by monsa199a

Welcome aboard!

Thanks! I ordered the kindle edition so I can start reading this weekend.

I really appreciate this idea of a monthly book club! Great idea MoonageDaydream! Looking forward to it!

Love this idea moonagedaydream. I hope I can maintain input without life’s distractions getting in the way. I shall make a start on the book.

Excellent idea! Good luck!

Looks like I could get the ball rolling. I'll share some quotes I liked from the intro and chapter 1 and my thoughts on them, but you can format your discussion post differently if you like

Spoiler for Introduction:

"Eventually we develop a continuity of awareness that allows us to maintain full awareness during dream as well as in waking life. Then we are able to respond to dream phenomena in creative and positive ways and accomplish various practices in the dream state."

This got me thinking about the experience of randomly becoming aware with DILDs versus the closest thing to an experience of continuous awareness I've had via WILDs, which still fade into non lucids at some point for me if I don't wake up. Both those types of experiences seem to parallel waking life experiences of awareness. For instance, as a kid I remember a few times when I was in the middle of arguing with my mom and then out of nowhere, like a light switch, I went from being deeply engaged in painful emotion to suddenly wondering what the argument was even about and why it had seemed to matter so much a moment before. This could be analogous to how some people get spontaneous lucid dreams (often as a response to nightmares) without any training or even knowledge about them. More recently after I began meditating regularly, I noticed more and more of those spontaneous moments of awareness that shook me out of whatever internal story or emotion had hold of me, which parallels gaining more frequent DILDs as a result of waking life RCs or some other practice. And then the continuity of awareness resulting from mindfulness practice immediately after a meditation session parallels WILDs. Complete with at some point lapsing into unawareness again.


"For instance, being told about yellow and red cushions in a room is like gaining an intellectual understanding of them, but if we go into the room when it is dark, we cannot tell which cushion is which. Concluding the meaning is like turning the light on: then we directly know the red and the yellow. The teaching is no longer something we can only repeat, it is part of us."

Absolutely, conceptual understanding alone is not nearly as powerful as combining it with direct experience. I can't count the number of times I had a "life changing insight" after a series of events that, when put into words, boiled down to a common cliche I'd heard all my life - but one which had previously been empty, obvious, and almost meaningless.

Spoiler for Chapter 1:

"Many Westerners who approach the teachings do so with ideas about dream based in psychological theory; subsequently, when they become more interested in using dream in their spiritual life, they usually focus on the content and meaning of dreams. Rarely is the nature of dreaming itself investigated."

I have to admit I'm personally drawn to both topics, the content/meaning and the process of dreaming as well. Really curious about how the two concepts might overlap, actually. But point taken, I do see the common emphasis on content. Especially when I first got into lucid dreaming, while a certain amount of attention to the nature of dreaming was necessary in order to achieve lucidity, most of my plans for the dream revolved around filling it with different types of content or exploring the landscape. It'll be interesting to go more in depth on how to use lucidity to explore dreaming itself.


"...dream yoga applies to all experience, to the dreams of the day as well as the dreams of the night."
Touched on this idea already but I really like the phrasing here.

Response to Nautilus
(It's funny we are using spoilers for a book without a plot to spoil, but I do think it's helpful to organize our thoughts.)

Spoiler for Part 1:

Originally Posted by nautilus

"Many Westerners who approach the teachings do so with ideas about dream based in psychological theory; subsequently, when they become more interested in using dream in their spiritual life, they usually focus on the content and meaning of dreams. Rarely is the nature of dreaming itself investigated."

I have to admit I'm personally drawn to both topics, the content/meaning and the process of dreaming as well. Really curious about how the two concepts might overlap, actually. But point taken, I do see the common emphasis on content. Especially when I first got into lucid dreaming, while a certain amount of attention to the nature of dreaming was necessary in order to achieve lucidity, most of my plans for the dream revolved around filling it with different types of content or exploring the landscape. It'll be interesting to go more in depth on how to use lucidity to explore dreaming itself.

I think the answer is here in Part 1 (How experience arises):

"Even the teachings must work with dualism - by
encouraging attachment to virtue, for example, and aversion to non-virtue
paradoxically using the dualism of ignorance to overcome ignorance. How
subtle our understanding must become and how easily we can get lost! This is
why practice is necessary, in order to have direct experience rather than just
developing another conceptual system to elaborate and defend. When things are
seen from a higher perspective they tend to level out. From the perspective of
non-dual wisdom there is no important and unimportant."

Finding answers to questions about the nature of dreaming (main inquiry of dream yogis) is descriptive, not ethical. Do you know about Hume's is/ought gap? Well, the nature of dreaming and the nature of experience, these things are descriptive, what is. Dream yogis are the scientists of the conscious experience. They scrutinize the illusion until it fades out. They find what is, what you can observe. In other words, dream yogi find what is most persistent about conscious experience: all consciousness content is transient and without essence.

That said, it doesn't answer questions about what has value, what is virtuous. Indeed, nothing is made important or unimportant from knowledge of nondualism. That's why, if we want to value anything, if we want to be virtuous, we have to form our own values and virtues and use our knowledge of nondualism to help us.

An analogy is that knowing medicine (descriptive), you can use it to poison someone or to heal someone. If you value the health and well-being of others (ethical), you will use your knowledge of medicine to heal people.

I think the westerner approach to meaning and content indulges dualism and explores what is important to us. By observing our dream content, as the author says, we can observe our "karmic traces" and use antidotes and self-liberation to nurture more positive karmic traces (those we value and and find virtuous, which we want to nurture).

I think that is the overlap you were looking for? Well, not an overlap, but a gap between is/ought; they are simply complementary.

Spoiler for Spoiler for Part 1 / Chapter 4:

I love how he describes the practice of "developing mental stability" (through daytime meditation on awareness) helps the student stabilize their lucid dreams. This is exactly the epiphany I had the other day while meditating. It's not so much to get lucid, but to stay lucid. When I heard him say this, I was so thrilled.

The only part I'm not crazy about right now are the 6 dimensions. I don't know if I believe that they exist like Earth does, however, I can see how we as people fall into our own person hells and such through our dominant emotional states.

Enjoying this book so much so far!

Originally Posted by nautilus

Looks like I could get the ball rolling. I'll share some quotes I liked from the intro and chapter 1 and my thoughts on them, but you can format your discussion post differently if you like

Spoiler for Introduction:

"Eventually we develop a continuity of awareness that allows us to maintain full awareness during dream as well as in waking life. Then we are able to respond to dream phenomena in creative and positive ways and accomplish various practices in the dream state."

This got me thinking about the experience of randomly becoming aware with DILDs versus the closest thing to an experience of continuous awareness I've had via WILDs, which still fade into non lucids at some point for me if I don't wake up. Both those types of experiences seem to parallel waking life experiences of awareness. For instance, as a kid I remember a few times when I was in the middle of arguing with my mom and then out of nowhere, like a light switch, I went from being deeply engaged in painful emotion to suddenly wondering what the argument was even about and why it had seemed to matter so much a moment before. This could be analogous to how some people get spontaneous lucid dreams (often as a response to nightmares) without any training or even knowledge about them. More recently after I began meditating regularly, I noticed more and more of those spontaneous moments of awareness that shook me out of whatever internal story or emotion had hold of me, which parallels gaining more frequent DILDs as a result of waking life RCs or some other practice. And then the continuity of awareness resulting from mindfulness practice immediately after a meditation session parallels WILDs. Complete with at some point lapsing into unawareness again.


"For instance, being told about yellow and red cushions in a room is like gaining an intellectual understanding of them, but if we go into the room when it is dark, we cannot tell which cushion is which. Concluding the meaning is like turning the light on: then we directly know the red and the yellow. The teaching is no longer something we can only repeat, it is part of us."

Absolutely, conceptual understanding alone is not nearly as powerful as combining it with direct experience. I can't count the number of times I had a "life changing insight" after a series of events that, when put into words, boiled down to a common cliche I'd heard all my life - but one which had previously been empty, obvious, and almost meaningless.

Spoiler for Chapter 1:

"Many Westerners who approach the teachings do so with ideas about dream based in psychological theory; subsequently, when they become more interested in using dream in their spiritual life, they usually focus on the content and meaning of dreams. Rarely is the nature of dreaming itself investigated."

I have to admit I'm personally drawn to both topics, the content/meaning and the process of dreaming as well. Really curious about how the two concepts might overlap, actually. But point taken, I do see the common emphasis on content. Especially when I first got into lucid dreaming, while a certain amount of attention to the nature of dreaming was necessary in order to achieve lucidity, most of my plans for the dream revolved around filling it with different types of content or exploring the landscape. It'll be interesting to go more in depth on how to use lucidity to explore dreaming itself.


"...dream yoga applies to all experience, to the dreams of the day as well as the dreams of the night."
Touched on this idea already but I really like the phrasing here.

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Response to Nautilus
(It's funny we are using spoilers for a book without a plot to spoil, but I do think it's helpful to organize our thoughts.)

Spoiler for Part 1:

I think the answer is here in Part 1 (How experience arises):



Finding answers to questions about the nature of dreaming (main inquiry of dream yogis) is descriptive, not ethical. Do you know about Hume's is/ought gap? Well, the nature of dreaming and the nature of experience, these things are descriptive, what is. Dream yogis are the scientists of the conscious experience. They scrutinize the illusion until it fades out. They find what is, what you can observe. In other words, dream yogi find what is most persistent about conscious experience: all consciousness content is transient and without essence.

That said, it doesn't answer questions about what has value, what is virtuous. Indeed, nothing is made important or unimportant from knowledge of nondualism. That's why, if we want to value anything, if we want to be virtuous, we have to form our own values and virtues and use our knowledge of nondualism to help us.

An analogy is that knowing medicine (descriptive), you can use it to poison someone or to heal someone. If you value the health and well-being of others (ethical), you will use your knowledge of medicine to heal people.

I think the westerner approach to meaning and content indulges dualism and explores what is important to us. By observing our dream content, as the author says, we can observe our "karmic traces" and use antidotes and self-liberation to nurture more positive karmic traces (those we value and and find virtuous, which we want to nurture).

I think that is the overlap you were looking for? Well, not an overlap, but a gap between is/ought; they are simply complementary.

You both are phenomenal analyzing and expressing your points of view, on what you have read!
As for me, It takes a lot of practice, time, and effort just to write in English my own dreams; since is not my native language. But I know there's google translate.
Back to the subject...In my opinion and for my experience with LDs. I see how those "karmic traces", can influence in our dreaming and waking life, positively or negatively. Therefore the importance of just observing thoughts and emotions as they arise, during sleep and wake time. Then practicing compassion towards ourselves and other sentient beings, and by nurturing a positive approach to transcend as a human race in this plane.
Looking forward to learn and enjoy new experiences together! ...I'm learning to let go...

Originally Posted by monsa199a

You both are phenomenal analyzing and expressing your points of view, on what you have read!

Back to the subject...In my opinion and for my experience with LDs. I see how those "karmic traces", can influence in our dreaming and waking life, positively or negatively. Therefore the importance of just observing thoughts and emotions as they arise, during sleep and wake time. Then practicing compassion towards ourselves and other sentient beings, and by nurturing a positive approach to transcend as a human race in this plane.
Looking forward to learn and enjoy new experiences together! ...I'm learning to let go...

I like that.

Btw. I would totally like your post but, for some reason, I'm having some issues with my "Like Button", right now?

Originally Posted by Lang

I like that.

Btw. I would totally like your post but, for some reason, I'm having some issues with my "Like Button", right now?

Thanks man! mee too with the "like button" I have done a couple of RCs when this happens...I have lost some writing efforts at times, when I realized that the site has kicked me out..

I have this problem too. Sort-of solution - wait until the ad refreshes itself and like, your screen moves down a bit, then HIT the like right then and it will work.

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

I have this problem too. Sort-of solution - wait until the ad refreshes itself and like, your screen moves down a bit, then HIT the like right then and it will work.

Thanks for the info.!

Back on topic.

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

Spoiler for Spoiler for Part 1 / Chapter 4:

I love how he describes the practice of "developing mental stability" (through daytime meditation on awareness) helps the student stabilize their lucid dreams. This is exactly the epiphany I had the other day while meditating. It's not so much to get lucid, but to stay lucid. When I heard him say this, I was so thrilled.

The only part I'm not crazy about right now is the 6 dimensions. I don't know if I believe that they exist like Earth does, however, I can see how we as people fall into our own person hells and such through our dominant emotional states.

Enjoying this book so much so far!

Spoiler for Part 1/ Chapter 4:

Yeah, I agree about the 6 dimensions. We all probably have been in all of them multiple times in our lives before we get to that point of enlightenment and clarity?

But yes, I know that we react negatively to a particular situation, we shift to a negative lifeline, metaphorically speaking.
Hopefully, we are on the right page?

Originally Posted by monsa199a

Thanks for the info.!

You're welcome. Hopefully someone will come in with a better fix than that! Until then..

Thank you MoonageDaydream for the book selection, I've really enjoying reading this book. I'm at the sleep yoga section now.

Here's my response to MoonageDaydream:

Spoiler for Spoiler for Dream Yoga parts:

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

I love how he describes the practice of "developing mental stability" (through daytime meditation on awareness) helps the student stabilize their lucid dreams. This is exactly the epiphany I had the other day while meditating. It's not so much to get lucid, but to stay lucid. When I heard him say this, I was so thrilled.

The only part I'm not crazy about right now are the 6 dimensions. I don't know if I believe that they exist like Earth does, however, I can see how we as people fall into our own person hells and such through our dominant emotional states.

Enjoying this book so much so far!

It's great when a piece of wisdom you just started to really get is echoed!

Well, he does say that the 6 dimensions have cultural influences, which makes me think that in his language, he might say they are "cultural ignorance." But I like that it got him to talk about 6 "negative emotions" and their antidote. It's good for finding some more meditation comparable to compassion meditation to improve "karmic traces". But it seems compassion is a great antidote... like, for all of them!

The thing I'm having more trouble with is some core principles of nondualism. I agree with the conclusion of nondualism: all perception is a mind construct (from your sense of self to your sense of touch to your feelings). In that sense, yes, everything is transient and empty. As long as we're talking about the contents of our awareness. But it seems they never concede that outside of our subjective world, there are objects and energies displayed in space and time in an objective world. When the author concedes that we must respect our engagements and fulfill our responsibilities despite nondualism, it kind of feels like we're taking a break from the whole perspective. But I think it doesn't have to be that way if the worldview is that there is an objective world with objects but our subjective experience is completely constructed by our mind (there is no direct experience of the objective world, only an indirect one). In that sense, if you ever feel you are one with everything, or that you are nothing, that is again a mind construct. There is no escaping it. The great non-quest for the bright light is a healthy practice to nurture some positive perception of the world (a non dual one) but I think there is no escaping what we are as consciousness and then as people in the world.

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Thank you MoonageDaydream for the book selection, I've really enjoying reading this book. I'm at the sleep yoga section now.

Here's my response to MoonageDaydream:

Spoiler for Spoiler for Dream Yoga parts:

It's great when a piece of wisdom you just started to really get is echoed!

Well, he does say that the 6 dimensions have cultural influences, which makes me think that in his language, he might say they are "cultural ignorance." But I like that it got him to talk about 6 "negative emotions" and their antidote. It's good for finding some more meditation comparable to compassion meditation to improve "karmic traces". But it seems compassion is a great antidote... like, for all of them!

The thing I'm having more trouble with is some core principles of nondualism. I agree with the conclusion of nondualism: all perception is a mind construct (from your sense of self to your sense of touch to your feelings). In that sense, yes, everything is transient and empty. As long as we're talking about the contents of our awareness. But it seems they never concede that outside of our subjective world, there are objects and energies displayed in space and time in an objective world. When the author concedes that we must respect our engagements and fulfill our responsibilities despite nondualism, it kind of feels like we're taking a break from the whole perspective. But I think it doesn't have to be that way if the worldview is that there is an objective world with objects but our subjective experience is completely constructed by our mind (there is no direct experience of the objective world, only an indirect one). In that sense, if you ever feel you are one with everything, or that you are nothing, that is again a mind construct. There is no escaping it. The great non-quest for the bright light is a healthy practice to nurture some positive perception of the world (a non dual one) but I think there is no escaping what we are as consciousness and then as people in the world.

I totally resonate with your answers, I also feel wisdom is universal and it would come knocking your door in many different ways and forms, whether you're ready to receive it or not.
I'm also noticing doing more compassionate acts in dreams, and more aware that synchronicity is happening now, more than ever!

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Thank you MoonageDaydream for the book selection, I've really enjoying reading this book. I'm at the sleep yoga section now.

Here's my response to MoonageDaydream:

Spoiler for Spoiler for Dream Yoga parts:

It's great when a piece of wisdom you just started to really get is echoed!

Well, he does say that the 6 dimensions have cultural influences, which makes me think that in his language, he might say they are "cultural ignorance." But I like that it got him to talk about 6 "negative emotions" and their antidote. It's good for finding some more meditation comparable to compassion meditation to improve "karmic traces". But it seems compassion is a great antidote... like, for all of them!

The thing I'm having more trouble with is some core principles of nondualism. I agree with the conclusion of nondualism: all perception is a mind construct (from your sense of self to your sense of touch to your feelings). In that sense, yes, everything is transient and empty. As long as we're talking about the contents of our awareness. But it seems they never concede that outside of our subjective world, there are objects and energies displayed in space and time in an objective world. When the author concedes that we must respect our engagements and fulfill our responsibilities despite nondualism, it kind of feels like we're taking a break from the whole perspective. But I think it doesn't have to be that way if the worldview is that there is an objective world with objects but our subjective experience is completely constructed by our mind (there is no direct experience of the objective world, only an indirect one). In that sense, if you ever feel you are one with everything, or that you are nothing, that is again a mind construct. There is no escaping it. The great non-quest for the bright light is a healthy practice to nurture some positive perception of the world (a non dual one) but I think there is no escaping what we are as consciousness and then as people in the world.

Spoiler for Chapter 8:

I think I agree with you. I felt a similar hesitation, moreso because I believe other people exist in some fashion. It's almost like he's promoting solipsism. I'm not sure how others exist, and I know we are one in essence. Maybe something like the multiverse theory, maybe God (source) "plays" all of us, and then we aren't so much interacting with each other directly, but rather, with one multiverse version of the other person who is also the same source energy. Nevermind. You know what? I don't know, and that's okay.

Guess I'm a bit late to the party but since I wanted to read this book for some time I think I'll just start now...
Great idea btw