Thread: Stabilization Fundamentals

Laberge created the techniques of hand rubbing and spinning and carried out studies with lucid dreamers to measure their effectiveness.

It's not necessary if your awareness is already balanced correctly, which is often the case with natural and self-taught LDers, the core participants in LaBerge's early research, if I'm not mistaken (conclusion based on knowledge of LDing's obscurity at the time, feel free to correct).

It's when people are introduced to shortcuts and attain lucidity without first building up the ideal discipline and mindset that problems like this tend to occur. Sure, some part of it is caused by the dreamer themselves when they go into a lucid with false information (regarding the causes of destabilization).

But really, if destabilization was never based in some reality to begin with, I doubt it would have been blown out of proportion this much.

Also, I don't think LaBerge is the master of lucid dreaming. A pioneer in terms of scientific research into the subject, sure, but there are folks out there way more experienced, if not necessarily as knowledgeable about some of the finer details. Also, which of his publications have you looked over (research papers included). I'm assuming all or most and not just ETWOLD, given your claim/suggestion.

I'll be honest, I haven't read any of his material (or any book on LDing for that matter), all the stuff I've been putting out there I've tried to compile and learn on my own so as to avoid bias as much as possible.

Edit: Ah, seems Ctharlhie knows more about his research than I do. XP

I kinda consider ETWOLD to be a modern dreaming holy text, I would say that 90% of guides posted on DV are rehashes of techniques discussed by Stephen even if the poster has never read his works (one of the things I love about LDing is how everyone seems to come to the same truths independently) :S

The study most people are familiar with is the 1975 eye response experiment in which Laberge drew the psychological establishment's attention to the existence of lucid dreaming, but he's still researching.

Most of his work is condensed into readable articles on this site: LUCID DREAMING Some of it is necessarily very basic, but then it is aimed at beginners.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I would say that 90% of guides posted on DV are rehashes of techniques discussed by Stephen.

So. . . LaBerge's work is filled with a bunch of misinformation? XP

But seriously, I'll read it myself before drawing any real conclusions.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

So. . . LaBerge's work is filled with a bunch of misinformation? XP

But seriously, I'll read it myself before drawing any real conclusions.

You're such a dick.. people put alot of work into tut's. And by the way, your tutorials don't have great positive comments on them either..

Everyone has a way in finding the truth. It seems condescending to think everyone else that makes a guide is just a pathetic show of incompetence. Not even the most prominent guides will suit everyone. Everyone keeps saying these are rehashes or what other icon made already, but the difference in people making the guides is showing how they experienced it. It's because of associations that makes one think that they are repeats.

If body and and spirit is important (or just the mindset if you want to be practical) in learning lucidity and stabilization rather than technique, to declare that 90% of the guides on DV are misinformation is to say that how that person experienced lucidity would be contradicting the ability to make a guide in a first place. I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, I just find it ironic that if one should focus on the mindset, and thinks the mindset of others is nonsense and repeats, then what's the point in contributing how the person felt attaining the lucidity?

Sometimes these "repeats" are a good way of learning things from a different perspective. Sometimes the answers are right in front of them, but their schemata doesn't want to accept it, so they go to other guides until one triggers it.

I like your guides Mzzkc, honestly, because I can tell you offer a simple format for me to understand concepts of what you think is ideal in triggering your lucidity and stabilization, but it doesn't mean it will always work for others. Some people don't have the mentality that you possess to easily trigger these important mindsets, they still need more perspective before it gets drilled into their brain.

That's why there are other guides here, and it's up to the person to decide whether or not it isn't going to help them or not, but to say 90% of them are just misinformation is something that doesn't relate to your schemata. You already established yours for dreaming, and it is typical to think others are misinformation when you already found the solution that you know that you can be conservative with until something else better makes itself apparent.

You can't teach people how to think, you can only teach them techniques, you can make a good representation of a format people can follow, but people should be aware that they are taking a risk from personal development if guides start pulling in official sources.

They should already be cognizant that saying "official" is basically saying "research this on your own if you don't believe me" which is exactly what they should do. And you have done nothing wrong with your guides in my opinion. You offer your insight and the dedication you put into is going to be respected by others. But one cannot just say the others are misinformation.

Then again, you're right, it is just the internet

Originally Posted by yuppie11975

You're such a dick.. people put alot of work into tut's. And by the way, your tutorials don't have great positive comments on them either..

That's because I'm such a dick. XP

People can learn from the information I give them or not, I don't really care, since it's their choice and I'll never have a real say in that. What I do care about is misinformation being perpetuated by 'official' sources that steals time from people and hurts their personal development. I'm not going to back down from that stance, even if it makes me a few enemies in the process.

Also, spending a lot of time putting something together with the best intentions in mind doesn't excuse or shield a poor, finished product from criticism and scrutiny. I welcome that sort of thing on my threads and respond openly, as do most other tutorial writers here. It's the people who put in the time that should be respected for that dedication, but their work should be open to criticism without a self-righteous, third-party, feel-gooder jumping in with personal attacks that do nothing to address the content of an argument.

But hey, this is the internet, so to hell with (mostly) sarcastic, intellectual jives and debate! Let's just call each other names and be done with it! =D

----Preemptive Post-Merge----

I'm glad you posted some actual content to respond to, Link.

Thanks. ^.^

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

Everyone has a way in finding the truth. It seems condescending to think everyone else that makes a guide is just a pathetic show of incompetence. Not even the most prominent guides will suit everyone. Everyone keeps saying these are rehashes or what other icon made already, but the difference in people making the guides is showing how they experienced it. It's because of associations that makes one think that they are repeats.

I don't think that at all, my comment was a light-hearted jab at a real problem this site is facing, not something to be taken very seriously (hence the "But seriously"). I'll concede ambiguous prose on this point, but I won't concede the fact that a lot of guides here, while great on the whole, pass on small, harmful bits of misinformation, for one reason or another.

Still, a lot of the time you see rehashes of information, it's because they are exactly that: rehashes. Usually, they're done in a way that pulls together a bunch of information from a variety of sources, not all of which are entirely personal. That's one of the reasons a lot of misleading information still exists today.

Of course, none of this suggests a particular guide is bad, or the person who compiled/wrote it was evil or trying to lead the population astray, nor does this suggest this is the way most writers put together their guides. It's just something that inevitably happens and people need to watch out for.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

If body and and spirit is important (or just the mindset if you want to be practical) in learning lucidity and stabilization rather than technique, to declare that 90% of the guides on DV are misinformation is to say that how that person experienced lucidity would be contradicting the ability to make a guide in a first place. I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, I just find it ironic that if one should focus on the mindset, and thinks the mindset of others is nonsense and repeats, then what's the point in contributing how the person felt attaining the lucidity?

I'm not sure I'm following you 100% on this one, so please clarify your position if it seems like I missed the mark:

I'm not knocking anyone's experience. The only things I'd ever have a problem with are how they present and explain it. On all of my guides, I try to make sure the reader understands that they shouldn't take what I write as law, and they should do their own research and contest my views if they find them incorrect. See, I love being right, that's a given, but if someone can provide a solid argument that lets me see things their way and convinces me I'm fundamentally wrong (not hard to do if you've got your facts together), I'll ditch that old way of thinking in a heartbeat. Why? Because I don't live in the past; I can only be right in the here and now, so why hold onto flawed ideas?

I think that's a pretty healthy mindset to have, especially when it comes to LDing, where success can arise from your ability to be aware of the present. That said, I couldn't accurately tell you the mindset of 90% of guide writers. And if I could, I doubt it would be restricted to a single outlook, since these are individuals we're talking about, all of whom have lived different lives and come from varying backgrounds.

Again, please clarify yourself if it looks like I didn't address your points, because to me it looks like I missed the mark a bit.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

Sometimes these "repeats" are a good way of learning things from a different perspective. Sometimes the answers are right in front of them, but their schemata doesn't want to accept it, so they go to other guides until one triggers it.

I completely agree. That doesn't stop pieces of misinformation from falling through the cracks, however.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

I like your guides Mzzkc, honestly, because I can tell you offer a simple format for me to understand concepts of what you think is ideal in triggering your lucidity and stabilization, but it doesn't mean it will always work for others. Some people don't have the mentality that you possess to easily trigger these important mindsets, they still need more perspective before it gets drilled into their brain.

Yep. I try to keep things beginner friendly every once in awhile, but most of the stuff I put out there is meant for more experienced or knowledgeable LDers such as yourself. It's a bit of an issue, but I've come to accept that I suck at writing material that complete novices will be able to fully digest and get to work. I do hope that people that stick with things for awhile can see some value in what I've put together, but there's not much I can do about that except help out those that ask for further explanation and encourage them to look into other resources besides my own.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

That's why there are other guides here, and it's up to the person to decide whether or not it isn't going to help them or not, but to say 90% of them are just misinformation is something that doesn't relate to your schemata. You already established yours for dreaming, and it is typical to think others are misinformation when you already found the solution that you know that you can be conservative with until something else better makes itself apparent.

Again, I'm in agreement here. Other guides are necessary, but they don't have to promote certain pieces of information as absolute truth simply because it's in a prominent place on a website. Accepting things only because you've been told them by someone in authority is abhorrent, in my opinion, and I'll do what I can to bring attention to that sort of thing in the hopes it'll cause at least one person out there to seriously question what they've taken to be fact.

Edit: Blarg, so many posts made while I was writing this. I must construct additional pylons replies.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Any dreamer who does not invest enough attention in the dream risks detaching from the dream entirely while on the flipside, not giving attention to cognition may lead to becoming to engrossed in the content of the dream and losing awareness.

How true. I have to be careful sometimes not to get caught up in the 'drama' of a dream, because if I do it quickly leads to the dream collapsing. However when confronted with this problem I use the following beautiful technique to recycle my lucids.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/recycl...dreams-119041/

By the way Mzzkc an excellent tutorial nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

It's the people who put in the time that should be respected for that dedication, but their work should be open to criticism without a self-righteous, third-party, feel-gooder jumping in with personal attacks that do nothing to address the content of an argument.

But hey, this is the internet, so to hell with (mostly) sarcastic, intellectual jives and debate! Let's just call each other names and be done with it! =D

xD, but really, in what way were you contributing to the relevant subject by saying (not directly, but meaning) that 90% of people's guides are uninformative and wrong. As linkzelda said, a guide is CORRECT no matter what, if it helped the poster, or someone else. Because a guide to lucid dreaming is a way TO GET LUCID so even if they are variations of a method or "re-hashes" then if they work for the person, they're a good guide..

Originally Posted by mcwillis

How true. I have to be careful sometimes not to get caught up in the 'drama' of a dream, because if I do it quickly leads to the dream collapsing. However when confronted with this problem I use the following beautiful technique to recycle my lucids.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/recycl...dreams-119041/

By the way Mzzkc an excellent tutorial nonetheless.

That's actually an incredibly awesome way to maintain stability. Essentially, it's a simple, foolproof way of interacting with an environment otherwise becoming completely devoid of sensory information. Genius, really.

Originally Posted by yuppie11975

xD, but really, in what way were you contributing to the relevant subject by saying (not directly, but meaning) that 90% of people's guides are uninformative and wrong. As linkzelda said, a guide is CORRECT no matter what, if it helped the poster, or someone else. Because a guide to lucid dreaming is a way TO GET LUCID so even if they are variations of a method or "re-hashes" then if they work for the person, they're a good guide..

There's a difference between something that has misinformation in it, and something that is completely wrong and uninformative.

Also, I don't share your view that a guide to lucid dreaming should be a way to "get lucid." I feel it's more important that a guide provide someone with the tools they need to discover their own path towards consistent lucidity. Generally, a big difference I've seen between extremely successful LDers, and those who only experience occasional lucidity, is that the former figured out their own way of doing things, while the latter are trying to emulate what the former have already done. There are no shortcuts to LDing consistently. As such, I feel guides should try to avoid those sorts of things whenever possible and instead focus on helping people understand the process behind things.

Again, just my opinion; everyone has their own end goals. I try to cater to people who want to LD almost every day and gain a deeper understanding of the dreamworld, since that was my original goal and the path I've taken since. Other people want a quick fix and don't much care about specifics. Neither goal is less admirable, but misinformation tends to hurt those who choose the former more than the latter, so I try to do my part to defend against that harm whenever possible.

If that means taking a sarcastic, exaggerated jab at the issue, in the hopes that some attention will float its way, then so be it. XP

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

You can't teach people how to think,

But I can try, dammit. =P

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

you can only teach them techniques, you can make a good representation of a format people can follow, but people should be aware that they are taking a risk from personal development if guides start pulling in official sources.

They should already be cognizant that saying "official" is basically saying "research this on your own if you don't believe me" which is exactly what they should do.

They should be, but oftentimes they aren't, since they tend not to think about things that way.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

And you have done nothing wrong with your guides in my opinion. You offer your insight and the dedication you put into is going to be respected by others. But one cannot just say the others are misinformation.

I appreciate the kind words. ^.^

Still, that's not what I was saying or trying to imply. Guides themselves are not misinformation. However, guides may contain misinformation. These things are not mutually exclusive.

But I could totally say what you guys think I've said if I wanted to, or I felt it was true. At least as long as the internet remains a free place, anyways.

I'm not sure I'm following you 100% on this one, so please clarify your position if it seems like I missed the mark:

I'm not knocking anyone's experience. The only things I'd ever have a problem with are how they present and explain it. On all of my guides, I try to make sure the reader understands that they shouldn't take what I write as law, and they should do their own research and contest my views if they find them incorrect. See, I love being right, that's a given, but if someone can provide a solid argument that lets me see things their way and convinces me I'm fundamentally wrong (not hard to do if you've got your facts together), I'll ditch that old way of thinking in a heartbeat. Why? Because I don't live in the past; I can only be right in the here and now, so why hold onto flawed ideas?

I think that's a pretty healthy mindset to have, especially when it comes to LDing, where success can arise from your ability to be aware of the present. That said, I couldn't accurately tell you the mindset of 90% of guide writers. And if I could, I doubt it would be restricted to a single outlook, since these are individuals we're talking about, all of whom have lived different lives and come from varying backgrounds.

Again, please clarify yourself if it looks like I didn't address your points, because to me it looks like I missed the mark a bit.

It's not about being wrong or right, as long as you can defend your opinion or belief in an intelligent manner, that's all that is needed. But sometimes when people can do this, there are mental barriers that prevent them from at least acknowledging that the person is trying to develop a method based on how they think.

Some people's way of thinking may be weird, but it works for them.

You don't need to change your ways in a heartbeat like that, I'm just saying people try their best to offer their beliefs in a civilized manner, and even if you do reject it and challenge it by giving good solid argument that seems to be reasonable, you should at least understand what it is you're trying to reject (not saying you are, I'm just speaking in a way for others who try to put some guides to shame). You don't have to tell them what you think should be right or wrong, but it always helps to at least acknowledge it, at least in your own luxury, what they went through to achieve it. (Again, it's dedication that they want to profess to others to feel a sense of accomplishment and/or contribution).

Because when someone says something negative on something you dedicated yourself into, of course it's going to cause some conflict with egos. It's inevitable, and I'm sure you know that if you don't want to bother with it, you can easily just pass it aside. But I'm not trying to direct this to you in ANY way, it's just acknowledging what the person did with their own mind, their own eyes, their own body. Technique cannot teach you that.

And by the time they read countless guides, even all the good ones, they will have to come to the fact that they must put effort into it on their own, apply it consistently, and know that there will be success in the end. These guides are supplements for them to experiment with how they THINK before they act and give up on the technique you obviously put in a simple format.

You are right with bad information being repeated and yes, it's the person's responsibility to know they are risking development.

If the person who made the guide knows they can get lucid from how they thought was the way for them to reach that state, good for them. If they are just lying and grabbing official sources, then yes, they are wasting their time providing false hopes for other newcomers. But most of the time, especially in this type of forum where not many people pay attention to other guides rather than ones that have some background to them, it would be rare for someone to solely base their guide on official statements, because they're not realizing that it has to be subjective rather than absolute.

I hope this clarifies the confusion. I just think that it's good to have someone like you to give newcomers a basis to start from, but again, as you know, the only way to teach something is to let the person learn from it and teach themselves, they have to mold it into their schemata (which is why things are mostly just variants to those who already accomplished the experience of lucidity and dreaming overall).

But anyway, I like your guides nonetheless, you're passing what you learned from yourself, and hope that others can take it as a supplement, and not as a law. But you should acknowledge others are doing the same.

But this is before I realized you were just saying it was misinformation in a a lighthearted manner. Now I feel stupid. I couldn't tell your slight joking with the term >.> I just take you seriously when I read your guides because of the dedication to trying to show how you thought things should be based on what you taught yourself.

It's not about being wrong or right, as long as you can defend your opinion or belief in an intelligent manner, that's all that is needed. But sometimes when people can do this, there are mental barriers that prevent them from at least acknowledging that the person is trying to develop a method based on how they think.

Some people's way of thinking may be weird, but it works for them.

You don't need to change your ways in a heartbeat like that, I'm just saying people try their best to offer their beliefs in a civilized manner, and even if you do reject it and challenge it by giving good solid argument that seems to be reasonable, you should at least understand what it is you're trying to reject (not saying you are, I'm just speaking in a way for others who try to put some guides to shame). You don't have to tell them what you think should be right or wrong, but it always helps to at least acknowledge it, at least in your own luxury, what they went through to achieve it. (Again, it's dedication that they want to profess to others to feel a sense of accomplishment and/or contribution).

Because when someone says something negative on something you dedicated yourself into, of course it's going to cause some conflict with egos. It's inevitable, and I'm sure you know that if you don't want to bother with it, you can easily just pass it aside. But I'm not trying to direct this to you in ANY way, it's just acknowledging what the person did with their own mind, their own eyes, their own body. Technique cannot teach you that.

Mmhmm, hence why you don't see me running around the site tearing down other people's guides due to a conflict of perception. The only time you'll see me bring something up I disagree with is when I respect the guide and the person behind it and want to offer some further discussion on a conflicting point of interest. Otherwise, I tend to stay out of others people's guides altogether, since arguing about what is true and what is not, is a silly thing. Like you said, debate shouldn't be about proving or disproving correctness, but helping the other person understand their point of view.

If after that's said and done, either party wants to change their perspective, that's up to them. Personally, I try not to have any solid beliefs, as I've found it's so much easier to learn and understand if you consider everything presented to you as a possibility and research accordingly. As it were, when I'm in a debate, I tend to automatically assume my opponent is correct while reviewing their points. It's only after I've digested what they've said that I'll apply other experiences and information to their point and see what pops up. This is why a lot of my arguments you'll see on this site are based around providing a counterexample.

Also, as a surprising aside, yuppie calling me a dick amused me more than anything else. The name calling on my part was just to help prove the point that discussion like that gets you nowhere fast. I have no ill-will towards the guy. =)

Still, I'm a pretty big dick. Not a huge dick, but big enough that it's noticeable.

Why do I have the feeling the above line is going to show up in sigs somewhere? >.>

Edit: So many ninja posts going on here. XP For the sake of consistency, I added what I was replying to.

But this is before I realized you were just saying it was misinformation in a a lighthearted manner. Now I feel stupid. I couldn't tell your slight joking with the term >.> I just take you seriously when I read your guides because of the dedication to trying to show how you thought things should be based on what you taught yourself.

Lol, I don't take anything seriously. XD

Edit: Except censorship of information, restriction of personal freedoms, and the dissolution of privacy. That shit ain't cool.

Lol, I don't take anything seriously. XD

Edit: Except censorship of information, restriction of personal freedoms, and the dissolution of privacy. That shit ain't cool.[/QUOTE]

-cough- SOPA -cough-

Let's all hug and make up n_n
I apolagise mzzkc, I see now you weren't being serious
And in no way should I have over reacted like that and called you a dick

Nah, it's cool. I come off as a dick more often than not, especially when people don't know me or what I'm about. Yeah, I've got strong, often controversial opinions about things, and I don't pull punches when kidding around, but I tend to respect individuals and always consider their ideas and opinions, even if I may end up disagreeing with them.

So, I applaud you for calling it like you saw it. And I applaud you again for hearing me out and understanding my position after the fact. ^.^

As my biggest problem with lucid dreaming is that I wake only seconds later, this thread has been a great help. Thank you very much .

sorry if this has been covered in this great thread. lately i've been pretty good at stabilizing the dream so it continues, yet struggling to stay lucid for long periods in it. in the past i have tried using things like guides and tokens but i'd be interested to hear of any methods people use to constantly remind them they are dreaming. i think i will try using some really wacky visual aids like a bizzare animal guide or something that always floats in front of your face. or perhaps carrying it maybe a better idea? i guess the more senses you use the better so perhaps creating something that is appealing, offensive or just odd to all the senses could be the ultimate lucid aid.

just remembered some other things that have worked in the past have been floating or flying around very carefully so as not to lose focus . also using any weird transportation is great although you always have that trade off between excitement and focus. i wonder if anyone has tried using something like a lucid watermark in the corner of their dream 'screen' ?

also just want to remind people how useful it is to do some stabilizing/grounding techniques with your daily rc's. cheers mzzkc great guide

Hm - first of all - I like the idea of taking care of balancing your attention between your awakened cognition and the dream as such.
smile.gif

I had alltogether 3 lucid dreams as an adult (probable several when I was a kid) - the first was something special, since - based on silly preconceptions - I tried to wake up as fast as I could from it and with a vengeance - so it doesn´t count in a way - long other story..

The second was wonderful and really felt balanced in the sense you described it - that rings true, and it was going on for quite a long while.
While the third got lost with attempts at stabilization per hand-rubbing and spinning.
This seemed to be too centred on myself - the dream-scape just collapsed into nothing while I did that.

Now - I have two things, that are a bit unclear to me.
First off - I´m not sure, I understand, what you are describing with the following:

Those who practice lucid living and all day awareness are more likely to be familiar with pouring attention into their surroundings. In fact, it's likely these people do this automatically whilst lucid, making traditional stabilization almost unnecessary for them. Still, there are ways to actively force focus on your surroundings. Everyone's method will be different depending on their experience with attention shifting, but I'll explain my method below so you'll have something to work with, at the very least.

Okay - does this basically mean you pay attention to your surroundings or something else/more?
This aspect of pouring/forcing seems to be something different.
Do you mean to bring it to life by instilling this attention instead of just observing it and paying attention to the details?
Could you come up with an example of how you do this in more depth, please?

I came up with this method in particular after reading a bit of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. The idea comes from the battle/meditation technique the main character is taught early on: to create a flame in his mind's eye and focus on it completely, deflecting all outside thoughts.

This sounds like something introspective - looking into yourself - not at the surroundings..?

I start by taking in the world around me, but not just what I can see; I use everything I can sense, making it my proverbial flame, making it all important, pouring my focus into it so that everything around me is complete and free from my conscious thoughts.

And just like that, the dream becomes stable, whilst I retain my lucidity. What's amazing is that this process doesn't take more than a moment and can be used at almost any time; I've lost count of the number of lucids this little trick has kept me from losing.

So - does this mean - hm - yeah - what does this mean?
If I were to try to interpret it - what I come up with is - try to perceive everything outside of yourself and take this perception inside your mind and set it aflame/alive inside of you?

Do you visualize a flame somewhere?
I´m afraid, I can not easily wrap my mind around it - but I sense there is something about it, I´d like to understand more clearly.



Right - that was the "important" part.
Now I wonder - I´m new to this site - but I have actually no idea what exactly it is, that you - personally, just that - see as misinformation, which is interspersed in the guides in here.
I have not read everything of course - but I am not aware to have read something that really goes against what you say.
And you yourself have not specified, with what exactly you have a problem - or I have missed this..?

Now - I am not too fond to kick off a new controversy - but I feel you have a grievance with certain points, and I´d like to know which ones exactly - no need to point to the perpetrators as such by name, I guess - just the content.
Knowing this would be your opinion of course - but I´m interested in it!

That would be great.
Especially of course the first part - if you could help me understand you better!

In advance:

thank-you.gif

Sorry. Late reply. Already doing tons of writing recently. Not much time for old threads; you understand.

Originally Posted by StephL

Now - I have two things, that are a bit unclear to me.
First off - I´m not sure, I understand, what you are describing with the following:

Okay - does this basically mean you pay attention to your surroundings or something else/more?
This aspect of pouring/forcing seems to be something different.
Do you mean to bring it to life by instilling this attention instead of just observing it and paying attention to the details?
Could you come up with an example of how you do this in more depth, please?

Yes, what I describe there might be best practiced by simply paying greater attention to one's surroundings. That is certainly a good place to start. Though, when I originally authored this, I referred--here--to raw shifts in attention. Like I mentioned in the original post, attention manipulation at the lowest level is a difficult thing to functionally describe....I will try.

Think of your attention, your focus, as a sort of currency. Each person has a finite amount of that currency--their allotted budget. When you are dreaming, you may freely invest your budget into whatever stock strikes your fancy, be it an internal or external entity. The average person doesn't get too involved with this investment allocation, allowing tricks and techniques developed by other to decide their fate. But an expert is more likely to fine-tune their allocations in order to build a more diverse, stable, and profitable portfolio. This requires a more hands on investment approach which can't be mastered by simply reading about how others have done it.

Probably not too helpful, maybe someone else can explain it better?

On the language used:

Most people are more introspective, more wrapped up in their own thoughts, both IWL and in dreams. For these people, a conscious effort is required to focus on their surrounding and achieve a better "balance." Finally, for me, the word "pour" most closely describes the sensation of shifting your attention from primarily internal observation to primarily external observation. The sensation is hardly universal. I would not have used the same language, if I had written this today.

Originally Posted by StephL

This sounds like something introspective - looking into yourself - not at the surroundings..?

So - does this mean - hm - yeah - what does this mean?
If I were to try to interpret it - what I come up with is - try to perceive everything outside of yourself and take this perception inside your mind and set it aflame/alive inside of you?

Do you visualize a flame somewhere?
I´m afraid, I can not easily wrap my mind around it - but I sense there is something about it, I´d like to understand more clearly.

The surroundings are the flame, though not literally. Instead of placing all focus on the flame, like the character in the book, I place all my focus into the world around me.

Using the investment analogy, this little trick achieves a rather extreme form of attention investment, i.e., it puts everything into the environment, leaving only the barest bit of attention tied internally.

Originally Posted by StephL

Right - that was the "important" part.
Now I wonder - I´m new to this site - but I have actually no idea what exactly it is, that you - personally, just that - see as misinformation, which is interspersed in the guides in here.
I have not read everything of course - but I am not aware to have read something that really goes against what you say.
And you yourself have not specified, with what exactly you have a problem - or I have missed this..?

Now - I am not too fond to kick off a new controversy - but I feel you have a grievance with certain points, and I´d like to know which ones exactly - no need to point to the perpetrators as such by name, I guess - just the content.
Knowing this would be your opinion of course - but I´m interested in it!

Things are better today than they were nearly two years ago. Many of my grievances have since been addressed, though I cannot provide a complete list of what's left without a significant time-sink, and I've already procrastinated on my nanowrimo novel long enough. XP

Oh - this is very helpful - thank you a lot!
I did indeed misunderstand you to an extent:

Think of your attention, your focus, as a sort of currency. Each person has a finite amount of that currency--their allotted budget. When you are dreaming, you may freely invest your budget into whatever stock strikes your fancy, be it an internal or external entity. The average person doesn't get too involved with this investment allocation, allowing tricks and techniques developed by other to decide their fate. But an expert is more likely to fine-tune their allocations in order to build a more diverse, stable, and profitable portfolio. This requires a more hands on investment approach which can't be mastered by simply reading about how others have done it.

Attention as a currency, where you decide freely, how to spread out your allotted budget makes a lot of sense to me.
Especially with the background of having gone to the effort of analysing some of the "Why Is It So Hard To Get To The Moon" thread, where so many people have invested so much mental energy - also creativity - to build themselves bridges, which ultimately are not needed or even conductive to what they wanted to achieve.
This was interesting to see.
I hope, coming a bit forward in my all too basic personal issues - namely getting there repeatedly in the first place - I will be keeping in mind this complete freedom and invest, where I want to and not where I think I have to, in order to x,y or z.


I was even more of a newbie than I am now, and didn´t take the timeline into account with the last aspect of my question.
It is anyway good to hear you confirm, what my overall impression was - namely that there is nothing glaringly misinforming in my eyes out there in the many guides, which this site puts forth under educational and guidelines for beginners.


Okay - I can fully relate to the "pouring" and "forcing upon" - I just was confused about what the flame exactly stands for, and suspected I might miss out on something there.

It is probably interesting in a way, to see how you worded these things years ago - well - even if not - I wish you to enjoy your writing and that you reach the audience, that you are having in mind for it and they enjoying it too!

smile.gif

I have re-read the OP again - and I got quite excited by an idea.
You say - balance between the dream, and the awareness that you are dreaming.
The one most realistic and absolutely fully clear lucid experience - all senses - acutely aware of all around me in the dream - was coming about by me pondering this very fact deeply. The first one years back.

I knew in that moment actively - that the contact to my body was severed - that all I had in that moment was the dreamscape - with that intellectual realization came the extreme stability of that dream - I had a really hard time to wake myself from it too.

I feel, maybe that awareness of my body lying in my bed meanwhile, was what made it so real?
Normally nobody tries to think about their body - but maybe it is a good idea.
So that there is a 100% realization - so to speak.

Did I get you right there - or what do you think?
I felt like suddenly understanding, why this first one was so special in that regard when I re-read.
But I have not put it to the test (yet..).

Of course I do not plan on concentrating on feeling my real body in some way - but intellectually "knowing to the fullest" that it is a dream.

Originally Posted by StephL

I have re-read the OP again - and I got quite excited by an idea.
You say - balance between the dream, and the awareness that you are dreaming.
The one most realistic and absolutely fully clear lucid experience - all senses - acutely aware of all around me in the dream - was coming about by me pondering this very fact deeply. The first one years back.

I knew in that moment actively - that the contact to my body was severed - that all I had in that moment was the dreamscape - with that intellectual realization came the extreme stability of that dream - I had a really hard time to wake myself from it too.

I feel, maybe that awareness of my body lying in my bed meanwhile, was what made it so real?
Normally nobody tries to think about their body - but maybe it is a good idea.
So that there is a 100% realization - so to speak.

Did I get you right there - or what do you think?
I felt like suddenly understanding, why this first one was so special in that regard when I re-read.
But I have not put it to the test (yet..).

Of course I do not plan on concentrating on feeling my real body in some way - but intellectually "knowing to the fullest" that it is a dream.

Ah, self-awareness. It does make the dream more stable and the experience richer(more dream control!!)

What an interesting topic, friend just a thought doesnt it seem weird when your not lucid dreaming the dream once you recal it seems stabile as in the surronding and actions taking place but lucid dreams require more work