Thread: Why is "everything", but dialating time possible in a lucid dream

Originally Posted by Sageous

Interesting point (maybe that's why I have so much trouble explaining myself? ), but I don't think I'm being contradictory at all, because the map is not the territory.

Any more than I feel that a hammer is a nail, or the word "tree" is a tree, I don't feel that our perception of time is time, no matter how hardwired that perception may be in our brains and genetic memory. In other words, sure, the neural activity requisite to perceive time is real, and I suppose the conscious energy we expend using time to perceive reality also exists to some degree, but neither of those things actually are time, they're just very well established maps of what we've decided to have represent our invented concept of time. I hope that made some sense; if not, it's all I got!

Alright, I understand what you're saying here, but then this is the next thought that comes to mind for me.

As you said, time is what we use to comprehend changes in physical space. But what I have to ask is, how could these changes possibly occur with any form of reliability or consistency to create the world we live in without moving through a medium such as time? In other words, could it not be that "time" is not the measurement system we created but the one that we evolved to understand? I can't help but compare this concept to things like the laws of physics which, while not in exactly the same category, are nonphysical and yet must exist for our stable universe to.

Of course, this wouldn't change the fact that it's our perception of time, and not time itself, which would play a role in "time dilation". However, I do think it could matter in the sense that in this way our perception of time could be limited by the actual passage of time, as it would be based around that and not something that exists completely on its own. That is to say, the speed by which our brain records our perception of time would still have to comply with the rules of actual time. And I believe this has been the central point of some of the arguments here which attempt to invalidate things like completely abandoning time.

What this would all amount would be that our perception of time is not the measurement of change, but the measurement of the measurement of change. Which seems perfectly logical to me, but I would be happy to hear other views as well.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Not so much differing, I think! Believe it or not I am in general agreement with that statement, and have repeatedly agreed with it; hell, I even said it myself a couple of times on this and other threads. Of course we can all slightly alter our perception of "time;" anyone who's been bored or in the midst of an adrenalin rush knows this quite well. But, as I said in the last paragraph, just because there is actual neurochemical activity going on to aid our perception of changes in reality, does that mean time itself is real? I don't think so. Sure, something is real, but it ain't time. So, yes, we all slightly dilate our perception of "time" regularly, but we are only changing the stuff inside our heads, not time itself. Indeed, I think you're confirming once again that time itself is an illusion; now it is just manufactured by our nuerochemistry as well as by our consciousness!

Well yes, we are in agreement about this, except for that bit at the end which I proposed a different idea to above. In that way the only thing I still can't agree with is that time can be completely dropped, or at least that if it was, it would result in zero perception rather than infinite. In other words, unconsciousness. But I certainly don't mean to suggest that anything we can change in our perception will effect actual time.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Also, I'm not sure these slight adjustments in perceived time are what Tye means when he discusses time dilation. I believe he (and others on these forums) are looking to dilate time in LD's much more dramatically, to the tune of hours, days, even years in one dream. I don't think neurochemistry would be able to keep up with those kind of changes.

...So maybe we don't differ so much at all? Maybe we're just talking about two different things?

Well, I personally believe that neurochemical changes in the perception can be much more than slight, but that's something I'm still trying to narrow down my own opinion on. I do think that the ability of our minds to extend time to vast lengths in an entirely internally-generated world such as a dream is much greater than it's ability to do so in the waking world. However, the extent to which it is possible, and to which it must involve both changes in the speed of perception and less preferable variables such as delirium, I can't yet say. But I do believe that it is possible to feel what seems like a lucid experience of incredible time dilation when both of these variables are combined and pushed to their limit, such as with a powerful psychedelic experience. But as was said before, I don't know if that would be the ideal goal in a lucid dream.

Anyway, I have some more to say on this, but I'm about to go for a swim, so perhaps later.

Originally Posted by Sageous

As usual, please be assured that I am speaking respectfully and without sarcasm -- if you detect the opposite, just ignore it...

No aggression detected, just opinions.

I will explain a little about the stuff I have experienced.

1) 5 hour dream in just 90 minutes? It is simply the illusion of passing time, created by an abridged story line. For instance, during the seeming 5 hours, no time was spent waiting for anything, no time was spent in the rest room and 'long conversations' probably were only exchanges of 20 or fewer sentences that felt much much longer. When walking down a street that in waking life may contain 30 properties, the brain abridges it to more like 5 to 9 properties, creating an illusion that you have been on a very long walk.

2) The Neo time dilation effect only seems to work in the presence of need. It is not supposed to be useful over and over throughout a normal day. It works well in a fight, or an accident. If you ask me that suggests that while a learned skill, it requires a surge of adrenaline. Others have commented on adrenaline here. When my I-phone fell and I was able to do the slowed time Neo effect, keep in mind the phone is very expensive, so I probably did have an adrenaline rush seeing it plummet towards concrete.

3) The meditation thing is probably just a matter of controlling the rate of thought. If we gage time by change then we kind of use the rate of thought as a marker. Seriously decrease the rate of the internal voice, and you get the appearance of time going away.

However, if we want to talk about the fantasy of spending an actual life within a dream, well, that seems like a matter of how much processing power. It may be possible for a brain to process so keenly and fast that a lot of experience could fit into a short time, while dreaming. This is basically running the brain on overdrive. I assume experiencing twice the actual time may be possible, but you would have to run out of processing power at some point. Perhaps a few hours experienced in 45 minutes might be realistic (maybe?) but not actual experience of days worth of input. That is all in the realm of sci-fi at some point.

Ok tell me if this might give time dialtion any more of a chance to happen. What if instead of your brain having to make all new memories for the dream to last for say a day dream time vs an hour real time, it was able to take memories that were already there inside your head from the past and just slightly change them to make them feel more real and of their own. Seems like your processing speed or time wouldnt make as much of a difference if this was possible. I just googled what a memory physically looks like and I found that your memories actually do change as you make new ones and learn new things. Does this make any sense or am I on the wrong track here completely?

Originally Posted by rastro13

Ok tell me if this might give time dialtion any more of a chance to happen. What if instead of your brain having to make all new memories for the dream to last for say a day dream time vs an hour real time, it was able to take memories that were already there inside your head from the past and just slightly change them to make them feel more real and of their own. Seems like your processing speed or time wouldnt make as much of a difference if this was possible. I just googled what a memory physically looks like and I found that your memories actually do change as you make new ones and learn new things. Does this make any sense or am I on the wrong track here completely?

Sounds like a reasonable thought. You may be able to reduce the need for processing speed if the data is already in place.

I think the reason I keep insisting/reminding that time doesn't exist is that I'm not sure that our physical brains, powerful as they may be, are wired to handle the accelerated processing you guys are talking about. Simply thinking faster just won't cut it, I think, even if you are working with pre-existing memory only and not creating anything new. There is simply too much involved in creating and experiencing a reality in a dream whose "time-span" dramatically exceeds the waking-life timespan of the dream. As many very smart people have already observed, extreme time-dilation may lie beyond our physical capabilities.

So, for that extreme time-dilation to work, a dreamer would need to step very far out of the box of physical reality as we know it. Something commensurately extreme must be done, like, for instance, eliminating or redefining time itself as a part of your dream.

Of course I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me...

That's it, my brain just said "I got your 'powerful as they may be' right here, buddy," and shut off.

I'm going to throw out a theory here not sure if it has already been mentioned or not. Why not simply create many memories in your lucid dream and let your mind fill in the details when you wake up. I've personally had dreams that have lasted days in dreamtime, but don't seem that long. If my conscious awake brain comes up with things to fill the gaps which it has before, then dreams that feel like 30 minutes seem like they lasted longer after I woke up.

This isn't really time dilation for say, but rather is like tricking your mind into thinking you had longer dreams. Sadly this doesn't help if you want a really long lucid dream, but can be very useful for non-lucid dreams.

Originally Posted by rastro13

Ok tell me if this might give time dialtion any more of a chance to happen. What if instead of your brain having to make all new memories for the dream to last for say a day dream time vs an hour real time, it was able to take memories that were already there inside your head from the past and just slightly change them to make them feel more real and of their own. Seems like your processing speed or time wouldnt make as much of a difference if this was possible. I just googled what a memory physically looks like and I found that your memories actually do change as you make new ones and learn new things. Does this make any sense or am I on the wrong track here completely?

No, to alter a memory still requires you to live through it, the same processing power would be needed to make it fit into the storyline. Secondly our dreams are largely created from memory anyways, what you are saying is how many dreams form anyways.

Originally Posted by Tye

I'm going to throw out a theory here not sure if it has already been mentioned or not. Why not simply create many memories in your lucid dream and let your mind fill in the details when you wake up. I've personally had dreams that have lasted days in dreamtime, but don't seem that long. If my conscious awake brain comes up with things to fill the gaps which it has before, then dreams that feel like 30 minutes seem like they lasted longer after I woke up.

This isn't really time dilation for say, but rather is like tricking your mind into thinking you had longer dreams. Sadly this doesn't help if you want a really long lucid dream, but can be very useful for non-lucid dreams.

Yes and it's fun to do. But it also is completely distinct from true time dilation, it won't help you get more work done or live a life within a dream.

Alright, I've been thinking about this, like, all of yesterday afternoon and this morning, and here's what I could come up with lol. Not set in stone by any means yet but this is probably going to be my most solid theory for now. First I'm going to explain why I believe that relatively intense time dilation is possible. I'll be doing this using the experiences that I believe are the ones that can the most consistently provide sensations of significant time dilation, which would be those of hallucinogenic drugs. Then, when I've gotten my point across about that, I'll relate it to dreams. Before I get started though, I do need to cover my views on what consciousness is so that this can make sense.

I personally believe that what we are experiencing at any moment, the point of view that allows us to see the world, is a result of our encoded sensory perceptions being written into memory. This, I feel, is supported pretty well by the fact that it is possible to experience "blackouts", such as on alcohol, benzodiazepines, anticholinergics, and etc., wherein our bodies are able to continue functioning with at least some level of normalcy despite the fact that we won't even experience it. I want to highlight that fact: it's not that you recall experiencing it but just can't remember it, it's literally like it didn't even happen. If you've ever had way too much to drink and hit that point, or taken too high of a dose of alprazolam or something similar at once, you'll know what I mean. It's like you're there having a good time, and then suddenly you're just waking up the next day, despite all the stuff your friends tell you you continued to do after that point. I believe that this simply reflects the fact that these drugs effect the memory systems of the brain more potently than things like motor actions, so even though those things are inhibited, they're still able to function even when things like memory and therefore consciousness fail. I also believe that this idea is supported very well by the fact that the parts of the brain involved in memory are also those involved in hallucinations. When that process of memory recording is significantly altered, it will show through as our minds start to record incorrect information and we see the results as hallucinations. This also ties into the fact that dreams happen when those memory systems are running at very high capacity, so that the reason we experience dreams is because our brain is being stimulated to the point that it's recording memories even in an absence of external information. To me, these things pretty much all but prove it, but I'd also be willing to give more examples if anyone wanted any.

Now, on to the time dilation. I believe that the first major player in this is the speed with which memories are recorded. As I see it, the easiest way to enhance this is to increase the amount of information that your mind is recording all at once, and nowhere does this stand out better than with a psychedelic experience, especially one like DMT. DMT is well-known because a trip from smoking it can easily seem to last hours for many people despite the fact that in reality the trip only lasts about five to ten minutes. This can sound absurd, but I believe that when you piece it together it's entirely logical. Psychedelics work mainly through the 5-HT2A receptor in the brain to create their effects, which I will detail here. First, there's the fact that these receptors in the prefrontal cortex have a facilitatory control over dopamine release from the ventral tegmental area, which is the source of dopamine neurons involved in perception. This means that when they're activated, things that would normally release a set amount of dopamine will release more than normal. Sight, sound, taste, touch, smell, imagination, learning... anything that normally involves dopamine will be enhanced, which means it will take up more of your focus at once. In addition to this, the dopamine release to the nucleus accumbens, and possibly other parts of the brain as well, will lower your latent inhibition. This is our basic ability to filter out irrelevant stimuli, and it is disrupted in conditions like schizophrenia. What it basically comes down to is that not only will all of your sensations be enhanced, but you'll pick up more of them; things that you normally wouldn't notice, background sounds like white noise or distant sounds, the specific textures of objects in your peripheral vision, smells that you've gotten used to, etc., will all reach the forefront of your perception as if you were paying close attention to them, in addition to the things that actually are right in front of you anyway.

This is how psychedelics enhance the regular sensory data you're already getting, but there's so much more than that going on too. In addition to all of that, 5-HT2A receptors exist on their own pretty densely in several sensory areas of the brain, and this is why psychedelics can cause hallucinatory sensory perceptions to overlap the regular ones. The most easily noticeable of these is there effect on the visual cortex, which is responsible for things like tracers, light and color distortions and intensifications, visual feedback errors, fractal patterns, wave-like distortions in the integrity of 3D space, and, in higher doses, total loss of normal visual function stretching into the perceptions of objects twisting, bending, morphing, and self-perpetuating at impossible angles and dimensions. These are by far the easiest changes to comprehend (and that's really saying something), but keep in mind that these kinds of chaotic alterations will be happening to your other senses as well, though I would say usually a little less intensely than with the visuals, but it's still some pretty heavy stuff. Now, what you have to remember, is that these changes are happening in the raw sensory areas. As far as your brain is concerned, there is no difference between these drug-induced signals and ones that would come from actually seeing these things in the external world, which is why they seem as real as actual perceptions at the time. However, where that is significant is that the brain will also be releasing dopamine from these senses in addition to the regular ones. That means that everything I said before, about your regular senses becoming intensified from facilitating the ventral tegmental area will apply to these as well. But it doesn't stop there. 5-HT2A receptors also exist in the parts of the brain that are significant the the proper integration of sensory information as it travels from its raw format to be used to create the world we before us. Because of this, not only is the information further altered, but sensations such as synesthesia can begin to occur, or senses blending together. This means that not only are all these heavy, heavy sensory signals being used to construct their own sense, but your other senses well.

On top of everything else, psychedelics also stimulate the areas of the brain involved in focus and memory. Because of this they are also directly hallucinogenic, and in high enough doses can cause out-of-body experiences and full dream sequences. These areas of the brain actually cause complex visions by working together with areas of the brain involved in higher visual processing functions, not those specifically for just receiving raw information, but for recognizing things like faces, bodies, letters and words, numbers, familiar environments, and etc. Normally, when we dream, these areas are being activated by these memory centers and nothing else, since areas such as the visual cortex are silent, which allows for recreating relatively normal scenes. However, since these sensory areas are actually even more active than when we're sober and awake when we're on psychedelics, both the input from them and from those centers will be blended together. And just to add insult to injury, 5-HT2A receptors exist in those areas of the brain as well, which means there will be a third, totally unique set of information coming into them that will unite with the other two to form the massively chaotic worlds that psychedelics can bring us to. Nowhere is this better exemplified than in a DMT breakthrough, which is basically like being in an incomprehensible alien landscape that seems even more "real" than the real world.

So like I said, my main idea for how to cause time dilation is to increase the amount of information you're taking in at once. This reflects my aforementioned view that our perception of time is the measurement of the measurement of change; the amount of these measurements that we are writing into memory all at once makes time slow down the higher it gets simply because we are perceiving a larger amount of information in a shorter amount of time, but to us we must still understand this information at what feels like a normal pace, which makes the rest of time seem slower by comparison. So if you've been paying attention, you can probably tell where this is going. There's never going to be any other time in your life when your brain is handling such an absurd amount of sensory information as it is in a psychedelic experience. Given all this, if my theory about how our perception of time works is correct, it seems considerably more plausible to me that an experience which only lasts a few minutes could feel like a few hours. However, that is putting it on the very light side of things, and many people claim experiences that last much longer. However, a DMT breakthrough is simply like an intense psychedelic dream, which I believe is only scratching the surface. All psychedelics, DMT included, can take it a step further than that to what many people refer to as a divine unification with the universal unconsciousness, the Godhead, ego death, or whatever you want to call it. For what it's worth, I've heard of this happening in dreams both lucid and non-lucid before as well, but it wouldn't be on top of all of this sensory information. What's significant about it is that at this point people begin to describe feeling as though they take up infinite space, or are processing an infinite amount of information, and coupled with delusions of grandeur and reference could reasonably be why there are perceptions of speaking to or becoming God. As far as I'm concerned here, these "infinite" perceptions may be simply more along the lines of... for example, trying to imagine having a quantity of an item represented by a number with a hundred thousand digits. It's something that is definitely finite, but is so large as to be completely incomprehensible by any human mind no matter what they do. Given that amount of stimulation that all of these different areas of the brain involved in perception are receiving at the same time, I could definitely see it being the same kind of thing. But of course, where it matters is that fact that the amount of information being processed can seem infinite. If that process is intimately tied to our perception of time, then couldn't that logically seem infinite too in the same scenario?

Before I move on to the next thing, I'd like to make one last point about something. This is a concept which I'd like to call "retrograde" time dilation. On psychedelics, and other drugs, there is an effect where altered or disrupted memory storage makes it seem like a much longer time has passed since the last thing you remember than actually has. I personally believe that this mostly occurs because memories seem more fleeting. On a high dose of a psychedelic, this can become so intense that things that happened moments ago can seem almost like a different lifetime. I would wager that this also plays a pretty important role in the perception of how long these experiences feel.

So, at this point I feel safe in thinking that it's possible for the brain to reach these "infinite" experiences. However, this is obviously not an option when it comes to dreams, because there's no way you could have that unbelievable sensory overload while in a regular dream. So the next thing I have to ask myself is, how exactly is the brain convincing itself of these things downstream, and can this process be activated in the absence of all that sensory data? To make clearer what I mean, take this for example. When glutamate is released and activates metabotropic glutamate 1 receptors in the hippocampus, it induces the synthesis and release of endocannabinoids which then activate CB1 receptors and cause downstream cannabinoid effects. That means that those effects are a direct result of glutamatergic activity. However, if you actually directly activate CB1 receptors through some other method, the easiest to explain being through a drug like THC, then the levels of glutamate drops and glutamatergic activity lowers. But this doesn't stop that CB1 activity from being activated anyway, so in some ways your mind can think that the same kind of thing is happening that would from activation of those glutamate receptors, even though it isn't. By this logic, I ask myself if it's possible for the brain to be pushed to the same amount of processing power through some other method.

The first thing I had to consider was the way that adrenaline rushes cause time dilation. They do increase your focus on your surroundings, but they also begin to cut out subjectively unnecessary data such as color. While following that train of thought, I arrived at dissociatives. See, people throw the word infinite around a lot with psychedelics, but whenever I hear it generally what I take it to mean is just that it felt too long for them to measure. But when I hear someone say something like "I was tripping for a thousand years.", then I know they mean business. This is the kind of thing I hear with dissociatives, like salvia and DXM, and many people claim that dissociatives are much more intense than psychedelics. The way they work though is more often than not the exact opposite. Psychedelics enhance your sensory perceptions, whereas dissociatives dull them. I've often heard people relate the experiences by saying that psychedelics show you what it's like to be everything, while dissociatives show you what it's like to be nothing. But despite this, it's a nothingness in the form of an infinite void. So if a seemingly infinite amount of space is perceived, could it not be somehow related to the space that psychedelics bring you to, regardless of what else is going on at the same time? The connection with the adrenaline rush would be that in both of these cases, the amount of processing power given to our surroundings is increased while the actual amount of data used to construct them slowly decreases. An adrenaline rush is not going to take you so far as to become redundant, since it does require you to still be able to interact with at least some of your environment, but drugs are not limited in the same way. Furthermore, dissociatives do cause hallucinations, which means that they must be altering the same memory and perception centers of the brain as psychedelics in some way. However, because on a dissociatives concept such as identity and sources such as external information shrink to nothing, the amount of energy that would be required to record the experiences should logically decrease by quite a bit.

The thing I think I can most easily relate this to is being bored. They say time flies when you're having fun, right? But when you're bored, it just drags on all day. I personally feel that this could be because you're not significantly changing the amount of processing power the brain uses there, but you are changing the amount of information it needs to store. Because of that the memories can be written quickly and more efficiently, which I believe means that your perception of time will lengthen. So in that way, you could apply the same logic to psychedelics and dissociatives. They both take you up to an "infinite" space, but one of them requires an incredibly higher amount of information to write in all at once, so the brain does still have to cut back a little bit on how quickly it can work it all in. But without all that extra junk data to pay attention to, it's able to divert even more power to that memory system. Another thing about dissociatives too is that they disrupt memory storage even more strongly than psychedelics, so that retrograde time dilation I mentioned could be even more significant here.

So, now we arrive at dreams. During a dream, particularly a lucid dream, the mind tries to recreate a relatively normal perception of self-identity. The brain does shut out external sensory perceptions while dreaming too, but not completely and it still invokes more normal sensory processing methods than would be used on a dissociative. Obviously, the ideal goal is to try to construct a realistic simulation of reality. Because of these things, the normal dream state sort of lies in between the psychedelic and dissociative experiences, not necessarily too much or too little sensory information or rational thought processing. Focus is also normally lowered in dreams as we all know, it takes becoming lucid even just to bring it up to normal levels. These things conspire to make time flow much more normal compared to waking life than a hallucinogenic experience would be. However, I do think there are some things to consider. First of all, as anyone who's ever had to wake up every day at the same time knows, the brain is pretty damn good at keeping time. For this reason I find studies such as the one by LaBerge which measure dream time to mean very little in terms of concrete information. Could it not simply be that dream time flows differently until we divert enough attention to accurately measuring it? This relates to what Sageous said about just ignoring it, but I am taking it in a different direction. My next thought is that even though things are more normal in a dream than in a trip, they're still not completely there. Activity of the memory areas are still high, and no matter how much you think you're perceiving in a dream, it's not nearly as much as you would be while awake. Signals from your physical body will be absent, as will many things in your environment that you're not directly paying attention to. Your brain can use shortcuts to create these things, whereas while awake it would need to pay much closer attention to what was going on. Because of things like this I don't think it's entirely absurd to suggest that the dreaming brain is writing memories more easily than the waking one would be.

As I said before, I feel that the ability to dilate time in an internally-generated world would be much higher than in the waking world. This is because no matter how quickly you're registering what's going on while awake, your body and the things happening around you are occurring at the same speed, which causes things like slow motion. This need not necessarily be true in the brain, as it's quite possibly that in addition to encoding experiences faster it may be creating them faster as well, as I do think that the two are intimately connected. If that was the case, you could genuinely be experiencing things at a normal pace despite the fact that they're happening faster than normal. Furthermore, I have to ask myself, if that is the case, how easily these factors can be changed both by default in a dream and by methods like dream control. For instance, if it was possible to normalize time by paying attention it, then would it be possible to shift it in the other direction as well? I remember reading a time dilation dream control method once, here on DV I believe, that involved sitting in a white void and watching a clock tick seconds by and imagining them happening slower than normal. If it did work that way, wouldn't that seem like an entirely logical way of changing it? Especially since the void would cut out even more detail, allowing your mind to focus more heavily on that. And if it's possible as a method of dream control then surely it can happen without it too, even if it wasn't likely to happen often. And of course, lastly there is the fact that memory storage is inhibited in dreams compared to normal, which could account for a retrograde effect in dreams as well.

Anyway, this post has already gotten incredibly long and I'm afraid that because I've typed so much I may have missed some of my points, or that I would if I continued to type more, so I'm going to stop now. But this is pretty much what I'm working with as far as time dilation goes right now.

Thanks for taking the time to write that all down, I read every word. So, it seems logical that dreams should take far less processing power than waking life. That would help create the feeling that more had been experienced. There is no need to process nearly as much raw data as compared to waking life.

Amazing post, well done. I think I need a while to let that sink in
If your theory on perception of time is right then it certainly does seem like there is a possibility for time dilation to an extent. I'm quite inspired now to give it a try.

What all this allows is a framework for how it may be possable. We know that dreams take less processing of data, as most detail is left out. We know that in some states (drugged) a few moments can appear to stretch on forever. We know the brain can create an illusion of time by 'abridging' the detail.

The question becomes, given a reduced need for detail, and so on, just how much time could be squeezed into say 30 minutes? I assume that the more time (preceived) compressed the less detail available. We could blur the edge of our vision and not render anything unless we look directly at it. That can increase processing speed, but how about intellectual detail? We would (IMHO) hit a wall fairly soon on how much story content can fit within the time frame. The sense that a year passed may be attainable, and by 'abridging' the details we may be able to experience more, but how much highly processed thought can fit in there? My guess is that not much more than a single preceived day could fit into a dream, but I am basing that on total speculation.

awesome post alyzarin! I have been pretty bored with this thread, but your idea has stimulated my energy for reading about it. I believe that there is time dilation (we all have felt it, whether purposeful or not) and that it must be something attained through a scientific way. If you look at it that way, then do you think that everyone might go through time at different speeds? Things like ADHD could just be people moving on different time frames. Crazy geniuses that can compute mathematical problems in less than a second might just be moving on an extremely slow time frame, not proccessing the world around them, and just processing whatever they want in their mind. Just a thought. I do not know how this would fit into your theory. I have not thought about it nearly as much as you (obviously).

Originally Posted by sivason

What all this allows is a framework for how it may be possable. We know that dreams take less processing of data, as most detail is left out. We know that in some states (drugged) a few moments can appear to stretch on forever. We know the brain can create an illusion of time by 'abridging' the detail.

The question becomes, given a reduced need for detail, and so on, just how much time could be squeezed into say 30 minutes? I assume that the more time (preceived) compressed the less detail available. We could blur the edge of our vision and not render anything unless we look directly at it. That can increase processing speed, but how about intellectual detail? We would (IMHO) hit a wall fairly soon on how much story content can fit within the time frame. The sense that a year passed may be attainable, and by 'abridging' the details we may be able to experience more, but how much highly processed thought can fit in there? My guess is that not much more than a single preceived day could fit into a dream, but I am basing that on total speculation.

Ya that is still my main problem with it too. In the end our brain isn't just a single processing machine that can divert all its power to anything it's doing, it is modeled. I definitely imagine there is a fairly low limit as to how much proper thought you can fit into a dilated experience.

Great post, Alyzarin, I read it with interest... much more thorough, I must say, than some clown suggesting to just forget about time!

Of course, I still can't get to seeing substantial dilation happening this way, given the physical limitations of our brains. But, if you do achieve success with your well-laid plans I hope you'll share... this is one "time" I'd love to be proven wrong!

Thank you for that amazing post alyzarin I loved it if you think of anything or want to add more to the discussion please do. I am beyond impressed with the amount of depth and research you did on the subject. I can't wait to see what else you find.

Originally Posted by sivason

Thanks for taking the time to write that all down, I read every word. So, it seems logical that dreams should take far less processing power than waking life. That would help create the feeling that more had been experienced. There is no need to process nearly as much raw data as compared to waking life.

I'm glad you found it captivating. And yep, that's pretty much how I'm thinking at this point!

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Amazing post, well done. I think I need a while to let that sink in
If your theory on perception of time is right then it certainly does seem like there is a possibility for time dilation to an extent. I'm quite inspired now to give it a try.

Thank you. If you do try it out, definitely make sure you report back either way! It would definitely help to have some subjective input on the matter. And that is part of the somewhat forgotten point of the thread anyway, haha.

Originally Posted by sivason

What all this allows is a framework for how it may be possable. We know that dreams take less processing of data, as most detail is left out. We know that in some states (drugged) a few moments can appear to stretch on forever. We know the brain can create an illusion of time by 'abridging' the detail.

The question becomes, given a reduced need for detail, and so on, just how much time could be squeezed into say 30 minutes? I assume that the more time (preceived) compressed the less detail available. We could blur the edge of our vision and not render anything unless we look directly at it. That can increase processing speed, but how about intellectual detail? We would (IMHO) hit a wall fairly soon on how much story content can fit within the time frame. The sense that a year passed may be attainable, and by 'abridging' the details we may be able to experience more, but how much highly processed thought can fit in there? My guess is that not much more than a single preceived day could fit into a dream, but I am basing that on total speculation.

This ^^ is the important thing to remember. Unfortunately it's hard to say very much about this without getting pretty far into speculation, but it's cool to think about. For instance, I wonder how much effort the mind exactly puts toward rending whatever it is you're focusing on versus whatever else is going on? I've seen studies that suggest that the brain is not truly capable of multi-tasking, only switching tasks quickly, so I don't think it would be too crazy to suggest that whatever it is specifically you're thinking about in the dream could be the only thing truly rendered while anything else you may "see" could be something closer to a background image. That alone seems like it could cut out a good amount of required power, and I'm sure there are other things like that going on as well.

Something I'd especially like to draw attention to though is the fact that these drug experiences are the only things we can say for sure are able to produce these kinds of experiences consistently. That's not to discount the experiences of anyone who claims to have experienced incredible time dilation in dreams, but since these drug experiences can be induced at will and we know how they work, they're going to form the basis for scientific theory here. That being said, these states that hallucinogens provide are as far as we currently know inseparable from considerable psychological alterations. You may be significantly more "aware" than you would be in a non-lucid dream, but you won't be exactly what we would call lucid by any means. Just because it's possible for these extreme states to be experienced doesn't mean that they're necessarily possible while remaining in a normal state of mind, at least through this particular medium.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

awesome post alyzarin! I have been pretty bored with this thread, but your idea has stimulated my energy for reading about it. I believe that there is time dilation (we all have felt it, whether purposeful or not) and that it must be something attained through a scientific way. If you look at it that way, then do you think that everyone might go through time at different speeds? Things like ADHD could just be people moving on different time frames. Crazy geniuses that can compute mathematical problems in less than a second might just be moving on an extremely slow time frame, not proccessing the world around them, and just processing whatever they want in their mind. Just a thought. I do not know how this would fit into your theory. I have not thought about it nearly as much as you (obviously).

I do think that, though there is one detail about what you said that I would switch! They say that there's a fine line between crazy and genius, and I don't just mean people in general say that. Researchers studying latent inhibition have suggested that that inability to filter out irrelevant information is, as I've said, what leads to conditions like schizophrenia in individuals with low IQ, but to highly creative minds in those with high IQ. It would make enough sense, right?

And thanks!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Great post, Alyzarin, I read it with interest... much more thorough, I must say, than some clown suggesting to just forget about time!

Of course, I still can't get to seeing substantial dilation happening, given the physical limitations of our brains. But, if you do achieve success with your well-laid plans I hope you'll share... this is one "time" I'd love to be proven wrong!

Thank you very much! And I certainly will! I've been considering all the different possible angles of this still since my last post just to see if I could maximize all the right variables to push it to the limit, and obviously I won't really be able to prove anything but I've been chasing some new ideas which I think are taking me down some interesting paths, even with their implications outside of this particular subject. I intend to post about them soon!

Originally Posted by Tye

Thank you for that amazing post alyzarin I loved it if you think of anything or want to add more to the discussion please do. I am beyond impressed with the amount of depth and research you did on the subject. I can't wait to see what else you find.

You're very welcome, and thank you too! I'll certainly chime in with any more thoughts as they come.

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I actually do have more to post about, but I've been meaning to get these responses done for a while and keep becoming busy or getting distracted by things and as far as I know that may continue to happen, so I'll end this post here and put those thoughts in a new one!

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Hukif's approach involves some weird combination of focused counting and abstraction that I don't quite get.

Ooh damn, I love me some mysticism. It gives me this feel of libraries filled with dusty grimoires and symbolism known only to the maker. Also old people in hooded robes.

So, like I said, I've been trying to consider all of the different ways that the brain could maximize its ability to record memories. The first thing that comes to mind for this is disinhibition, or inhibiting the basic inhibitory mechanisms which are always running to some degree in our brain. The easiest way I can describe this is that each part of our brain is wired to be able to work at an extremely high level of activity, but because of the way they all interact with and inhibit each other they're normally operating at a much lower capacity than this. This is a very good thing, because having all of your brain be completely active at once would be called having a massive seizure. However, because of this it is possible for different areas of the brain to work at a much higher than normal capacity, such as the limbic areas involved in memory during dreams.

The major inhibitory neurotransmitter throughout the brain is GABA. This is the chemical that alcohol and benzodiazepines work around, among other drugs. However, alcohol has several non-GABA effects as well and it wouldn't be entirely right to use it to relate to in this particular situation, so for now I'm going to stick to the benzodiazepines. Most people who know much about basic drugs don't think of GABA as anything more than something that lowers activity, and the benzos are largely to blame. Under normal conditions in the adult brain, GABA inhibits memory storage, and a very significant site of action for this is the hippocampus. The thing is though that because GABA does normally exist to some degree throughout the day, what would be considered inhibition from the standpoint of versus no GABA at all could to us just be called a "normal" amount of memory encoding, until those functions are pushed even further than what they're normally at. This is why some drugs, such as ginkgo biloba, are able to enhance memory by blocking some of the activity of GABA, but I'll get to that shortly. The way benzos work is different from most drugs used either medicinally or recreationally, in that they don't actually alter levels of the neurotransmitter they focus on, GABA, but increase its ability to bind to GABA(A) receptors in various areas of the brain. They do this by binding to a range of different GABA(A) subunits, which are differentially distributed in the brain. For example, the subunit alpha-1 is thought to play a particularly important role in GABA's effects on memory, and therefore under normal conditions an alpha-1 subunit agonist such as many benzos will enhance the memory loss induced by GABA without necessarily changing the intensity of its other effects. Bilobalide, one of the chemicals in ginkgo biloba, does the opposite of this. It is an alpha-1 antagonist, lowering GABA's amnesiac effects, and it's thought that this is largely how the plant enhances memory.

So that's all well and good, but what a lot of people don't realize is that GABA's effects are actually much more flexible than just inhibitory action, and GABA(A) receptors can cause excitatory effects as well. I mentioned this recently in another thread, as part of a different theory, which I now could expand a bit further on because I know even more about it. The way it works revolves around the fact that GABA receptors' activity depends on the local concentration of chloride ions, with low levels causing inhibitory effects and high levels causing excitatory effects. When the brain is still young, GABA actually normally functions as an excitatory neurotransmitter, and this is mostly due to different levels of chloride transporters that occur colocalized with GABA receptors in the developing compared to the mature brain. The transporters are known as KCC2 and NKCC1, the former of which lowers chloride ion levels and the latter of which raises them, so the brain starts out with low levels of KCC2 and high levels of NKCC1 and these reverse as it grows. However, these aren't the only factors involved here. Another big one seems to be the activity of the carbonic anhydrase CAVII, which is an enzyme that catalyzes carbon dioxide. This enzyme significantly increases in numbers shortly after the developmental switch of GABA from excitatory to inhibitory, and because of downstream activity it causes due to altering the levels and activity respectively of bicarbonate and potassium, it can result in the same kind of changes as having a low KCC2 / high NKCC1 setup. The difference is that this activity doesn't become significant until it is either activated by an outside mechanism or by heavy stimulation of GABA receptors themselves. Knowing this, it adds a whole new layer to how this system must be considered.

I've actually known for a long time that certain GABAergic drugs can cause so-called "paradoxical" effects, such as stimulation and hallucinations, as opposed to the sedation and lowering of psychotomimetic activity that would normally be expected. This is a very rare effect for some people in certain benzodiazepines, and is a more common occurrence particularly in a class of drugs known as non-benzodiazepines which work on these same subunits. Furthermore, it is well known that muscimol, a drug which works by directly activating the core GABA(A) receptors, can cause hallucinations and an overall blend of psychedelic and dissociative effects, though still unique as well. In fact, many people compare the hallucinations caused by GABAergic drugs to a waking lucid dream state, though there still are some disruptions in normal conscious function do to widespread activity throughout the brain. With muscimol this is easy enough to understand, since taking it in a large amount would logically heavily stimulate those receptors in the same way as GABA itself and could cause the switch back from inhibitory to excitatory effects. I think the effects of the drugs working on the subunits can be explained in a similar way, but with some clear differences. Since the way they change GABA activity varies quite a bit from one place to the next, it makes sense that only those drugs which significantly effected the receptors specifically involved in enhancing the activity of CAVII would be able to recreate this effect, and this could account for why most GABAergics tend to only cause inhibitory effects by focusing on the other properties of GABA, but also why some of them are able to slip through the cracks every now and then.

Where this lands us next is at something called theta rhythm. This is a brainwave pattern that, in the hippocampus, is associated with motor behavior, alertness, spatial learning, and REM sleep. That last one should have caught your attention! It is known that acetylcholine receptors, specifically muscarinic ones, are able to promote the generation of theta waves, but it's thought that because of how they work there must be a central mechanism which they are mainly promoting rather than being the main source of activity themselves. And what's really cool is that this source of activity seems to lie with GABA receptors. What I'm super psyched about right now is that I read a study earlier today that claimed that this generation of theta waves from cholinergic receptors could be reversed by a GABA(A) antagonist, and it went on to suggest methods by which acetylcholine release could facilitate the activity of CAVII and cause the inhibitory to excitatory GABA switch. The most convincing of these seems to be by causing an increase in the cellular levels of calcium, which is known to enhance spatial learning, among other things. In fact, both acetylcholine and glutamate receptors which are known to increase dream clarity and vividness raise levels of calcium. But what really matters to me is just the fact that acetylcholine was shown to be involved, and that those muscarinic receptors can cause these effects.

I'll try to keep this part brief, but to explain how I feel about the next point I think I should explain what I think imagination is. The part of the brain known as the amygdala is critically involved in motivation and thought, and it is located right next to the hippocampus. Stimulation of the amygdala is known to stimulate the hippocampus as well, and in fact has been linked to generation of out-of-body experiences and dreams. I personally believe that this is because the hippocampus contains a mental map of our environment, and that would be how our perceptions are created by our memories being written in, as it is all encoded into place by the data contained in the hippocampus. As an extension of this, I believe that our imagination is actually just a lower form of dreaming, and that our ability to visualize things while awake is the result of "map" data being written into the hippocampus from the amygdala at a level that doesn't cause those internally-generated sensations to replace the ones we have pulled in externally, but it does allow us to "see", "hear", "feel", or what have you sort of in the background of our mind. Therefore, a dream environment would be the result of having those external perceptions removed and replaced by internal ones pumped up to the level of what we would normally use to encode the waking world. This corresponds to the fact that the amygdala, like the hippocampus, is hyperactive during dreams. It also goes great lengths to explain why, when we're in our right (lucid) minds during a dream, we have essentially total control over what happens to us, because it's just like controlling your imagination. And I don't think I really need to convince anyone here that our imaginations and dream environments are intimately linked.

Now, something that is very-well known is that acetylcholine has a positive effect on visualization and dreams. Supplements that raise levels of it, such as galantamine, have the ability to enhance both. I've always thought that this must somehow relate to a potentiation of dopamine activity, which I feel is at the core of hallucinations, but I could never really say how for sure. I've had different theories, but none of them have gotten me as excited (hahahaha... yeah, nerdy joke) as this one. The inhibition that GABA produces at normal resting states lowers the activity of dopaminergic neurons, which means things that release them will do less so (compared to lower than normal GABA levels). However, when the GABA activity switches from inhibitory to excitatory, it will actually cause that dopamine to be released more efficiently. So what that basically means is that if acetylcholine causes this GABA switch, it should directly facilitate dopaminergic activity and increase the stability of hallucinations, visualizations, and dreams, just as it does. What really ties this all together though is that REM sleep is associated with the highest levels of acetylcholine in the hippocampus you'll ever normally have. This means that this GABA switch should also be running at its strongest at this point. Given that the amygdala is also hyperactive, it would mean that your motivation to move and explore would also be very high, and I believe that this lies at the core of dreaming. If you become lucid and decide to just sit down and do nothing then the dream will end, right? Given that, could it not be that it's this incredibly high amount of stimulation/motivation that is beginning this entire process which leads to higher acetylcholine, enhanced CAVII, excitatory GABA, theta waves, and facilitated dopamine? And therefore, would it not make sense that once you consciously decided to stop actively participating, this process would be inhibited just as it would if you returned to a resting state while awake and the GABA would return to normal, therefore plummeting dopamine levels and causing the dream to fall apart? In other words, if this was all true, couldn't GABA logically be at the heart of the dream world?

I feel that this is supported by the way GABAergic hallucinogens are described, but I think it goes even further than that. The psychedelic 5-HT2A receptors actually induce the release of acetylcholine, GABA, and dopamine in the hippocampus as well, and psychedelics are said to cause REM sleep-like patterns of activity in the brain. So if they can cause this same kind of effect to happen, it would make sense to me that it could contribute to the massive amount of processing power involved in powerful psychedelic experiences. On the other hand, dissociatives cause GABA and acetylcholine levels to lower. But, while still causing a release in dopamine. This means that even though they don't cause excitatory behavior from GABA, they still significantly inhibit its regular inhibitory behavior and facilitate dopaminergic effects. And when you consider that the amount of sensory stimulation between the psychedelic and dissociative experiences differs so much like I mentioned before, I would imagine that this could pick up a good amount of the slack. But what it really makes me think about is the question: if psychedelics actually cause more potential for expansion of power than dissociatives but are somewhat hindered by the massive amount of information they need to store, then what does that imply for dreams? If dreams do work the way I speculated here, then that would put their GABA effects in line with psychedelics rather than dissociatives. But as I mentioned before too, the amount of information that needs to be stored in a dream would be closer to between waking world and dissociative levels of stimulation than that of psychedelics, so would that mean that the memory encoding powers of dreams are a bit further increased beyond what I already postulated before?

So basically, what it would come down to is that our brains would be in a constant state of active learning and memory encoding in dreams that actually resulted from not only a form of disinhibition but one taken all the way to excitation, and to an extreme, and that could cause some time dilation as well if what I said before is true. I honestly think this is an awesome thought for many reasons stretching beyond time dilation too, but that is what got me here, and I've been trying to figure this sort of stuff out for a while now so I'm pretty happy to have arrived here just because I happened to be working on this issue as well!

I apologize for typing up such an incredibly long post again, but I really did just want to get my whole thought process out there. And like before, I've covered so much that I worry I might have missed some stuff... so that's it for now.

So, when does Gabamine come on the market? Or should we call it Alyzarine, which does have a ring to it?

Seriously, though: this is a very impressive theory, and is no doubt based on extensive knowledge and research, but I'm still stuck on a niggling and slightly metaphysical question:

Let's say you do manage to stimulate the brain in a manner that encourages optimum activity all at once without blowing up the works; how then do you get all that activity to do what you want it to do, and not run wild (as is the general result in the hallucinogen-caused events and mental disorders you cite -- very well -- as examples of this heightened activity)?

We puny humans have enough trouble getting the currently allotted portions of our brains to do what we want them to do; how would we manage such control over the entire brain? Will there be a pill for that too, or will we need to do some work? Perhaps some new form of global meditation? Sivason, you might have some work to do if Alyzarine comes into use!

Also, could it be that those mental disorders are a result of the extreme activity, so perhaps there's a reason a healthy brain doesn't go there?

Finally, it seems to me that Alyzarine might do more for enhancing dreams, learning, and memory recall than time dilation; which of course would not be a bad thing at all...

Thanks again for the extensive posts, Alyzarin, it's all quite interesting and encouraging!

Originally Posted by Sageous

So, when does Gabamine come on the market? Or should we call it Alyzarine, which does have a ring to it?

Seriously, though: this is a very impressive theory, and is no doubt based on extensive knowledge and research, but I'm still stuck on a niggling and slightly metaphysical question:

Let's say you do manage to stimulate the brain in a manner that encourages optimum activity all at once without blowing up the works; how then do you get all that activity to do what you want it to do, and not run wild (as is the general result in the hallucinogen-caused events and mental disorders you cite -- very well -- as examples of this heightened activity)?

We puny humans have enough trouble getting the currently allotted portions of our brains to do what we want them to do; how would we manage such control over the entire brain? Will there be a pill for that too, or will we need to do some work? Perhaps some new form of global meditation? Sivason, you might have some work to do if Alyzarine comes into use!

Ah yes, that is the question, isn't it? I believe to answer that we must first be able to answer this: "How do we control our dreams?" It's simply a matter of gaining the fortitude to remain aware and a true understanding, not only through the concept but through firsthand experience, that there is nothing separating ours minds from the dream world around us, no? Once this is achieved, literally anything is possible. However, in a fully excited brain state such as this, it's possible that even the part of us which is working normally in a lucid dream to allow us the rational train of thought to direct our experiences will be attempting to work far beyond our control. In this case, I feel I can only relate one piece of advice which will always withstand the test of time: "Turn off your mind, relax, and float downstream."

This is something I can only speak from personal experience on, but I believe it very much. Regardless of whether or not you are retaining your perceived conscious control, your mind is still your mind. The things that you think about and desire at any given moment reflect the way you feel at the time, right? For example, if you're simply relaxing and in a daydreaming mood, your mind will start to unfold pleasant fantasies for you. Whether your are pushing your mind toward these fantasies or your mind is pushing itself, they will still become activated through the same kinds of inputs, and therefore will reflect your state of mind in the same way. With this in mind, might it not be best to simply put yourself in your ideal state of mind for achieving your desired results and let your brain do the work for you?

I faced these questions many times when I was actively using hallucinogens. At first I was always trying to direct my trips in one way or another by imposing my will upon them, when what I should have been doing from the start was simply sitting back and enjoying myself. My mind knows what it wants, it uses the same neural pathways regardless of how it becomes active, and I eventually learned to respect that. No better do I feel was this exemplified than when I took 20 hits of LSD. I simply released myself into the experience, and my hallucinations were exactly what I would have chosen them to be if I had kept lucid control, and it essentially felt like I did. I have since applied this concept to many lucid dreams and been able to influence entire scenes without even trying, by simply assuming that what I wanted was already going to happen because I knew that I was in good hands, my own. What it really just comes down to is, you have to trust your mind, because all it is is you. If one can do this, I feel they'll take a giant step towards using the power of their brain to its full potential.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Also, could it be that those mental disorders are a result of the extreme activity, so perhaps there's a reason a healthy brain doesn't go there?

This would be the idea with lowered latent inhibition. While some disorders do exist due to genuinely disrupted chemistry, it would not surprise me at all if others merely came around because people were unable to cope with the level of activity their brain regularly runs at. This goes back to what I was saying about the line between crazy and genius; it takes a gifted mind to handle these incredible inputs, but if you can do it, then more power to you! They say that many of the great thinkers and inventors throughout history were thought to have very low latent inhibition. Can you imagine what it must be like to deal with a stream of information on the level that would drive the average person insane and be able to organize it into logical and creative structures? No wonder they can achieve so much!

However, given that, it's clear that most people don't need to have their brains running at this capacity all the time, at least not without seriously dedicating themselves toward practices such as meditation and awareness, as you suggested above, or methods such as the one I related. That doesn't mean it's not nice to kick it up just for fun every now and then, though.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Finally, it seems to me that Alyzarine might do more for enhancing dreams, learning, and memory recall than time dilation; which of course would not be a bad thing at all...

Thanks again for the extensive posts, Alyzarin, it's all quite interesting and encouraging!

I would agree with this, as these things I believe are all inseparably bonded and we have become accustomed to alerting ourselves more to tiny changes with the first three than with the last. But also as you say, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And you're very welcome, I'm just happy that you're able to get something out of it!

Also, I'm completely flattered that you've turned my username into a drug, I can't deny that it does roll off the tongue quite well!

^^ That all makes sense, and gives me something to think about, thank you!

Clearly you've given all this some lengthy attention; is there a book in the works?

Any time, I'm always glad to discuss these topics! I don't think I would be nearly as far with these thoughts otherwise, it's great to have everything you've worked through up to a point laid out in front of you for proper review.

I'm not currently writing anything, though my dad has been nagging me to start for a while. At the moment this is just my hobby, it's what I think about in my free time. Would you read a book if there was one? I could sure use some cash. Hahaha.

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Would you read a book if there was one?

Absolutely! Though from experience I can promise it would be a very small audience... at first, anyway; if you've something truly seminal to offer, well, who knows?

Well thank you, I really appreciate that! I'll certainly keep that in mind for the future.