Thread: What defines a stable lucid dream?

I would define a stable lucid dream as one in which I don't really have any fear of waking up from. Like you are so immersed in the entire dreamscape that you feel completely separated from your body.

Often I have lucids during short naps where I can still kind of feel my body lying in bed, and if I focus too much on it, I'll wake back up. Usually just doing some reality checks or focusing on the dreamscape works to get rid of the feeling, but sometimes I have dreams that are perpetually unstable, where the feeling comes back a few seconds after I get rid of it. That's just my opinion, anyway.

Maybe this tutorial, by dutchraptor might help you.

At least, it helped me identifying the two LDs I had as actual lucid dreams.

So you know vividness, free movement and balance are signs of lucidity. Maybe another important sign is fearlessness. When you are lucid, you should know the dream world is totally safe, you can do wathever you want and you shouldn't be afraid of the consecuences of your actions.

A stable lucid dream is one in which you don't fear waking. It is inevitable that you will wake, there is no reason to be worried about the inevitable.

Originally Posted by Sensei

A stable lucid dream is one in which you don't fear waking. It is inevitable that you will wake, there is no reason to be worried about the inevitable.

Hmm... I guess that would be easier if you lucid-dream frecuently. I mean, if you luckily have a lucid dream once a month, the last thing you want is to waste that oportunity, but if you can have them like twice a week, then you won't worry that much, because it's not such a loss. So, being able to have lucid dreams with good quality is important, but quantity is important too, as it will help you gain confidence, thus improving your LD's quality.

Is that right?

Thanks for the input everybody! After a lot of thought, I think my problem has been that I'm not grounded enough. I need to concentrate on something in the dream to establish more of a connection with it.

I'm going to give this tutorial another shot. I'll concentrate on it a lot more this time, hopefully that will do the trick. Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

^^ Before you are completely done with this thread, Dolphin, I'd like to mention that there might be something amiss in your OP's premise.

Originally Posted by dolphin

I know a stable lucid dream is vivid, and is one where I have free movement and good balance. That's all I know! I have a feeling there's something I'm missing in defining a stable lucid dream. I have to know this in order to tell a stable lucid dream from an unstable one so I can create a game plan in having consistently stable lucid dreams.

A stable LD does not need to be vivid, have free movement, or good balance. These things have nothing to do with stability -- or lucidity in general. Lucidity is simply the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in a dream, of knowing you are dreaming, and this is true whether you are in the dullest of dreams with no movement or control at all. Stabilizing lucidity is done by calmly knowing you are dreaming, maintaining your self-awareness, remembering who you really are and where your actual body is, and maintaining a calm confidence that you can remain self-aware for as long as your dream continues, or until you wake up. That's it; vividness and control are nice, but really have nothing directly to do with lucidity, and certainly do not define stabilization.

I'm not sure where this lucidity=vividness meme came from, but it really is not correct; you can be full-on lucid in the dullest of dreams, and not lucid at all in the most vivid of dreams.

I know I'm late to this thread, and it looks like the OP has already been cleared up by others, but I felt a need to point this anyway... maybe enough repetition of the fact that lucidity does not equal vividness or control will help fix this odd new vividness association.

Originally Posted by Suvid

Hmm... I guess that would be easier if you lucid-dream frecuently. I mean, if you luckily have a lucid dream once a month, the last thing you want is to waste that oportunity, but if you can have them like twice a week, then you won't worry that much, because it's not such a loss. So, being able to have lucid dreams with good quality is important, but quantity is important too, as it will help you gain confidence, thus improving your LD's quality.

Is that right?

If you are faithful with few, you will be faithful with much.

Quantity has nothing to do with it.

Worrying will never help you when it comes to LDing. This is a big reason why meditation is so helpful. You need to have a clear mind that doesn't have cares wandering around it all the time. This is a big help to lucid dreaming things.

When it comes to stabilization, I believe that it is a form of dream control (or the rem ending) and that you can prolong rem if you try. Here is my podcast about it:
http://www.dreamviews.com/dreamviews...ml#post2137795

Since it is dream control, then the things that Sageous said are a path that can work for you, but that is because they are things that can greatly help your control.

Also, as Sageous said. Vividness and awareness do not equal stability nor vice versa. Stability is its own path, and if you think that they all hinge on each other, you will either have to master them all at the same time, or you won't be able to do any of them. I prefer to think of everything that I work on can help me learn the other, but not knowing it won't make it impossible to learn another. This way you can get better at all of them at different speeds instead of the speed of the one that you are slowest at learning.

Thanks, Sageous! I was hoping you would post. You're so helpful!

So what I'm getting is that more self-awareness, and therefore more lucidity will solve my stabilization and dream control problems.

^^ Yup.

I have occasional (thankfully fairly rare among LDs) LDs where I have a very strong feeling that I must hold the dream by force of will alone, and if I "let go" even one tiny bit the dream will collapse -- these usually end soon anyway. I would certainly call these "unstable." I also occasionally have dreams with a "dizzy" feeling to them, which I'd also call unstable, which can be rectified by standard approaches like hand rubbing, which eliminates the "dizzy" feeling. I call a stable LD one which you don't need to exert much will (if any at all) in simply staying lucid and continuing on in the dream.

I've been researching self-awareness. Now that I believe I got my head around what self-awareness is, I made a game plan to keep my dreams more stable.

To keep the dream stable, I remain aware of myself, the effect the dream world has on me and the effect I have on the dream world.

Did I miss anything?

It is possible to go Sageous way, but as I said,That is a way to get stable LDs. If it is something that fits you as a dreamer, it will stick. If not, then you might have to try other avenues of dream control.

I know that. You know I'm the trial and error type!

It's good to remember that dream time is distorted, and does not progress linearly with real time. The dreams you remember upon waking usually occur in the last stages of sleep, and most often the last dream you remember occurred very shortly before you woke up -- you could feel as though you've been dreaming all night, when really your whole dream occurred in the last 5 minutes of your sleep. In the dream world, one minute can feel like an hour. It can also feel like a second, and it varies. However, interestingly enough, though your _experience_ of time changes, your _perception_ of time does not if you are actively considering it, as referenced by a study in 2004.

You should also remember that achieving lucidity *does not necessarily mean* that you are in control of your dream. In fact, you could be aware and simply choose to continue your dream without any interaction from your mind, or you could also be unable to control it. According to LaBerge, besides what was already stated, there are even cases where a dreamer exerts control over the dreamscape, and yet is not lucid at all.

The best measure of stability would be what was stated by the users above, the feeling of waking. If you feel as though you won't wake up, you probably won't, and are in a stable dream. However, this is not a good standard measure of "stability." I have had dreams both lucid and unaware, where I _couldn't_ wake up. I have also had lucid dreams that felt stable (as though I wouldn't wake up) and the moment I got too excited, I was awoken.

Awareness is the best way to habitually have stable lucid dreams, and among many other things in the guides you've read, reality checks are an excellent way to practice this.

Originally Posted by dolphin

I've been researching self-awareness. Now that I believe I got my head around what self-awareness is, I made a game plan to keep my dreams more stable.
To keep the dream stable, I remain aware of myself, the effect the dream world has on me and the effect I have on the dream world.

Did I miss anything?

Don't forget to remember. Remember your goals, remember your body asleep in your waking-life bed, or just remember where you were a few minutes ago (even if it was in another dream). By consciously accessing memory you are maintaining a link with the engine that both defines you (so you won't be fooled by the dream-schema DC "you") and powers your dreams, pretty much assuring stability.

Originally Posted by Sensei

It is possible to go Sageous way, but as I said,That is a way to get stable LDs. If it is something that fits you as a dreamer, it will stick. If not, then you might have to try other avenues of dream control.

What I suggested is not a technique for stability, Sensei, but a state of mind. This is not a thing to try that may or may not "stick," it represents the core mindset of LD'ing. And, given that lucidity = self-awareness in a dream, it seems a good state of mind to be in.

Maintaining self-awareness and memory can of course be done while doing stabilization techniques, sure, but if your self-awareness/memory levels are high in a dream, you will likely not need to do any techniques. I am not sure how you can maintain stability (or LD at all) without self-awareness; can you describe the technique that negates a need for self-awareness or memory in a dream?

My watch does it fine. click a button and I am stable, vivid, and the dream will last longer.

Every technique, for lucidity, stability, dream control or otherwise, is a way to change your state of mind.

^^ Then you are a very special person, Sensei, in that you can become lucid and enjoy control and stability without the presence of waking-life self-awareness. This is fairly paradoxical, since lucidity means the presence of waking-life self-awareness in a dream.

Either that, or you are already comfortable in your self-awareness during LD's, and are simply not giving it a thought (which BTW I did for over 20 years). Techniques are tools that help us do things for which we are already mentally prepared; clicking that watch must mean something to you in order for it to have any effect on your dream (and, obviously, self-awareness had to be present in order for you to remember to click your watch). Did you ever wonder if clicking your watch works because your head is already in the right place, that your self-awareness is already strong when you do it, and that the clicking is only an acknowledgement of what you already know?

Or else we are simply on different pages here about this subject (I think this has happened before), though we may be saying the same thing, and I fear we will remain that way. I will continue to believe that self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention are not techniques, though techniques can be used to help them along, and that you cannot become lucid on a technique alone... but I will be sure to clarify my position -- that self-awareness is not a technique, but the actual mental state of lucidity -- whenever someone mentions that there are other ways to go in a LD than being self-aware; I hope you won't mind. Enough said here about this, I think.

Ah, I see! Thanks for clearing that up! So the stability/dream control technique is like the machine and the self-awareness and memory is what makes the machine work. In my words anyway

I tried to simply be more self-aware in my lucid dream last night but it ended up being another one-minute LD.

I'll go back to trying the Dream Stabilization and Clarity tutorial. It makes sense to me so I feel it will work if I follow it completely. It's based on a routine too-I like the consistency of routines!

Originally Posted by dolphin

So the stability/dream control technique is like the machine and the self-awareness and memory is what makes the machine work. In my words anyway

... That sounds good to me!

A stable lucid dream is the same thing as a stable model for reality. You are in a virtual existence in which you can be sure of nothing except for what you think just happened and what is actually happening in the moment. The less you rely on your memory and the more you actually think critically, the more stable the dream is likely to get. When you try and access your memory or try and exercise brute force to change things that are happening rather than thinking of why it should happen, you are giving up your awareness to the unconscious mind. The more you try to feel things instead of think them, the more you give back to non-lucidity because that is what lies in the realm of unconscious thought.

The goal is to be aware and lucid as possible, which means that it is a creative exercise of wit between staying lucid and getting tricked into becoming not lucid again. The dream world isn't really yours just to take control of, and so it's only natural that when an intruder is detected that people in control try and find out where you are and snuff you out as loudly or quietly as possible. To them, it makes no difference, as long as you let the dream keep being unconscious.

So, you are in an arms race with yourself to keep yourself awake through the experience, devise any means necessary to keep you thinking and able to come up with more explanations for things so that they make sense to you, otherwise you will fall back into an unstable non-lucid.

I tried the dream stabilization and clarity tutorial last night. Once I finished with the hand exercise, though, I forgot completely about it and ended having another 1 minute lucid. The dream did feel very stable, though, like reality, as I was doing the hand exercise. My distorted hands were somewhat shocking though

I need a technique that's continuous throughout the whole dream, something that constantly reminds me to keep the dream stable. Otherwise, I'll forget! I'm thinking that a mantra would work. Throughout the whole dream, I'll go "*breath* 1, the dream is stable. *breath* 2, the dream is stable, ect." trying to feel it as I'm saying it. I'll try to get to 400 (46 minute lucid) as a long term goal. Right now, I'd probably only be able to get to 10 or 20 in a typical LD.

Originally Posted by dolphin

I tried the dream stabilization and clarity tutorial last night. Once I finished with the hand exercise, though, I forgot completely about it and ended having another 1 minute lucid. The dream did feel very stable, though, like reality, as I was doing the hand exercise. My distorted hands were somewhat shocking though

I need a technique that's continuous throughout the whole dream, something that constantly reminds me to keep the dream stable. Otherwise, I'll forget! I'm thinking that a mantra would work. Throughout the whole dream, I'll go "*breath* 1, the dream is stable. *breath* 2, the dream is stable, ect." trying to feel it as I'm saying it. I'll try to get to 400 (46 minute lucid) as a long term goal. Right now, I'd probably only be able to get to 10 or 20 in a typical LD.

Mantras work like a charm for me to stay lucid. I would repeat "I'm in a dream" to keep my lucidity(self awareness). Looking at my hands helps me stabilize the dream. I lack awareness though in LDs, so I try to focus on the present moment in the dream; you know, experience the current environment and senses, being mindful. Also little tricks help too, like I summoned a digital bar named "HD" and raised it to the max, though at that particular time this had not worked lol. I try shouting "clarity now!" while comcentrating on the clarity increasing and being more aware of the dream. I'm still kind of a beginner and suck at this though so don't mind me, plus I think you already know these, but I think I have a nice epic trick for you, a trick type dream control tech, and I'm sure it'll be worth a LD to try it out

Here it is: you know how if I throw a buckret of ice water on you now, you'd snap to awareness and focus, like if you were daydreaming and I did that, you'll snap to reality. Try the same thing in a LD; get a bucket of cold water and be like "I will drop this on myself and snap to focus and 'wake up' (not wake up wake up, but like the daydreaming example, wake up to the dream world if that makes any sense )

You can do variations like electrocute yourself or put your hand on fire and so on lol be creative

Hope I helped

I had a thought, Dolphin:

At the risk of reopening another technique debate, have you considered ignoring* the dream, and focusing on keeping your mind stable? Call it a need for fuel rather than machinery, per your earlier analogy. Instead of demanding that the dream remain stable (Snoop did make a good point about this), why not assert your own stability?

Since you will likely be witnessing a dream of some sort throughout your REM period, why not let them come and go as they will, vivid or not, long or not, and just work on getting used to your own presence in them? In other words, get comfortable in the skin of your own mind. Watch, lucidly, the dreams as they arrive, fade, pass, and arrive again, all the time conscious of your presence in the dream and the fact that all these universes briefly passing you are of your own creation.

I think that, over time, you will become comfortable enough with your presence in the dreams -- with the dreams -- that you will be able to finally insert your will into their schemata, stretching them out, changing them to match your goals, and enhancing their clarity. In a sense, your fully-fueled consciousness can expend enough energy to make all those techniques work for you.

How to start doing this goes back to daytime work, I think. Some mindfulness meditation (vipassana meditation or Samadhi yoga, perhaps) would help get you used to having your head in the right place, and in building your self-awareness... I actually compressed the experience of these two systems into a simple little activity (yes, Sensei, a technique) I used in my DVA WILD class called a Reverse Reality Check, where you occasionally take a pause to ask yourself three simple questions: where was I a few minutes ago?, where am I right now?, and where will I be in a few minutes? In your answers, try to wonder about your interaction with our local reality, how you effect it, how it effects you. I go into it in a bit more detail in the first session of the class and its Q&A section, if you're curious. Ultimately, though, what you're trying to do is get your mind in a solid "here & now" state, where you are conscious both of your presence in reality and your interaction with it. This is self-awareness in a nutshell -- the fuel you need to drive those machines.

There are certainly other things you can do, other places to look for advice, but I think if you make your sense of Self the priority instead of your sense of the dream, you might discover that the dreams, as they pass, become more malleable, more open to your input and desires, and, of course, much more lengthy. I did.

tl;dr: You might need more fuel, rather than more machinery: try strengthening your self-awareness in your dreams, and let the dreams come and go as they may. In time, your self-awareness will have the power to extend and clarify your dreams as desired.

...Just a thought.


[* EDIT: Okay, maybe not ignore the dream, since experiencing it is why you're there in the first place. By ignore, I meant just let the dream be; don't try to actively do things to stabilize or adjust its nature. Sorry!]

I think you can consider this from two points of view: psychological stability and physiological stability. In the first, like I think Sensei and sageous are both saying, your mind (either your memory of who you are and why you are here, or simply your refusal to worry about the dream collapsing) allows the dream to be your primary reality as long as it physiologically will last. This is the stability that most LDers refer to when they talk about stability.

On the other hand, physiological factors can affect stability as well, such as increased heart rate, or simply how close to waking you are.

So I would say a stable lucid dream is one on which you are mentally grounded--you understand that none of what you are seeing is real (and you treat it that way) and that the illusion can last as long as you've got REM time. Physiologically, your body should be firmly planted in REM sleep (not in the middle of a WILD transition, for instance, and not in a dreamlet), and no mental excitement should be affecting the body to the point of having a wake-up.

EDIT: Sageous, when you say "ignore the dream," do you really mean just to observe the phenomena in a detached manner as they arise, without interacting? If so, I wholeheartedly agree. I have been attempting this a bit and gave had interesting results. Alan Wallace also recommends this as a stability exercise.