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    Thread: Freedom and Sex for the Mentally Unhealthy

    1. #1
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      Freedom and Sex for the Mentally Unhealthy

      Disclaimer: This discussion is not about mental illness but assumes mental health is a spectrum. Any reference to mental illness is actually a weak attempt at referencing a point on the mental illness spectrum that is below the threshold for an actual mental health problem that requires professional help.

      So, in the last few months, I have been considering the role of unhealthy mental patterns as they affect dream. I believe fixing one's own unhealthy mental patterns in real life can be a dream control technique in a broader sense of the definition.

      Freedom example.
      So in the last months, I discovered I had a form of social phobia, that is, even if I didn't realize, the mere presence of other people was a source of stress for me. The stress was both physical and mental. I couldn't pee in public, was very unsatisfied with every human encounter I had, going over how I could have done better. I didn't even realize because though I knew I was shy, I was social and many people who know me said very confidently that I could be nothing else but extroverted, that I had no problem with making friends and shyness, etc. I know that's wrong though, I am introverted, I don't feel connected to the people in my life, and solitude is my source of energy. In dreams and lucid dreams, I was always alone and had lots of dreams about having to run away from every DC, all of them being part of a single community. When I had lucid dreams, when I would travel, the DCs would chase me because I had trespassed and was not welcome.

      When I became aware of my social phobia, and using Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I started telling myself "I am safe", and "I belong" whenever with people and believing it has led to a really fast recovery. I still don't feel that I belong with people the way I wish I ideally would, but I know I belong with people in a way that fits a more realistic definition for me. The effects in my dreams have been drastic. Now, in my dreams, I am surrounded by DCs who are my friends. I don't have many chase dreams anymore, but when I do, I am not running from the world, rather the enemy is only one villain or a group of people and I have to face them with friends, I am no longer alone, and DCs might come to the rescue.

      In lucid dreams, I am now free to go wherever I may. No DC tells me I don't belong. I know probably some lucid dreamers, especially those with no unhealthy mental patterns, can just will these problems away, especially by ignoring them and focusing on other things, but for me, I believe this was the only way for my dreams to become a place where I am free.

      Sex example
      Last night, in my lucid dream, there was a girl, and I willed her to me with sexual intents. She approached nonchalantly and disinterested, she left. I realize this happens often in such dreams. In real life, possibly due to my unhealthy mental patterns with society, I never feel like a girl can really desire me. I have had many girls interested in me until now, but never have I even considered that they could actually like me. I didn't understand why they pursued me and I just distanced myself. Now, I believe if I can finally allow myself to feel that girls are justified to like me, the girls in my dreams will become interested.

      I am searching for more examples of how unhealthy mental patterns can be fixed to improve dreams. Any of you have had similar obstacles that you overcame in such a way? This practice is very satisfying for me as it liberates me both in waking and dreaming life.

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      Such a very satisfying thread Occipitalred. Really the only thing I can add here is what I've been thinking of lately considering taking lucidity and freedom in one's life. I notice that dreams tend to follow mental patterns that have to do with envisioning future life experiences and almost as if practicing how the future could evolve.

      As I am now in a state where I do not have any control over my own life's future I tend to dream nothing at all.Except occasional dreams about the past and certain hopes and comfort. I advise anyone else to try and comprehend which forces act upon ur own life and where you can take power and lucidity in ur real life.
      I suspect good LDers do this naturally. And I don't pretend that full freedom exists but I think that natural LDers have the strong desire and drive to control their own life.

      So it's not just related to social phobia.
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      I am not one for labels. I have never been diagnosed but if I was I would say I have always had high social anxiety, anxiety and depression. This is why my dreams became so important to me from early on. I wish more children could learn to dream and use their dreams as I did, to better my life. In my dreams I had control even though in my RL I didn't but I modeled my life to my dreams in a sense. I would feel good doing things in my dreams and eventually bring that to my waking life. We CAN change things about ourselves that we are not happy with by practicing in our dreams. I always had the wrong interpretation about how others felt about me and didn't find out for many years the truth. I felt awkward in high school and yet was very popular. I chose to befriend those who noone else would give a chance. I knew by being a good person I could never go wrong. I don't thing dwelling on negatives are ever a good thing so see yourself as powerful and see yourself as someone the girls love (if this is what you desire) and you will see that once you believe it, it will happen. Practice this in your dreams or with visualization, see yourself being the person you want to become.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      Really the only thing I can add here is what I've been thinking of lately considering taking lucidity and freedom in one's life. I notice that dreams tend to follow mental patterns that have to do with envisioning future life experiences and almost as if practicing how the future could evolve.
      That's interesting, I never considered dreams as envisioning the future. After all, all futures are potential presents.

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      As I am now in a state where I do not have any control over my own life's future. I tend to dream nothing at all. Except occasional dreams about the past and certain hopes and comfort.
      What do you mean you have no control over your own life's future? Well, I can understand actually. But I would say that, especially in the way that it affects our dreams, our perception of whether we have control over our own life's future is much more important than the reality of whether we really do or not have this control. I believe if we feel we have no control, we can quickly perceive that we do really have control over our life. The only prerequisite is to truly believe this new perception. I find a good way to achieve this is to allow for a more realistic definition to the feeling. Many people, especially me, have very idealistic ideas of how our lives should be. Though sometimes we can't change our perception of our life, because we can't convince ourselves, we don't believe, I think that perceiving the realistic rather than the idealistic makes this much easier. For example, sure, you don't have control over your original circumstances, the whole of society and which opportunities will present themselves to you, so in the ideal sense, no you don't have that much control, but once one accepts this, and realize one does have control over things that matter very much, that is, how one takes care of themselves and others, how they act, which opportunities they embrace and the kind of quest they undertake, you can really create a sense of control over your life, despite having no idea where you are going.

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      I advise anyone else to try and comprehend which forces act upon ur own life and where you can take power and lucidity in ur real life.
      When you say, taking power and freedom to waking life, do you mean taking the sense of lucidity, freedom and control unique to lucid dreams into waking life in order to form a more positive and liberating attitude?

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      So it's not just related to social phobia.
      I agree. I believe the whole of our perception influences dreams. But, I think that unhealthy mental patterns have an especially important role. If you mis-perceive waking life, e.g. "I have no friends" when you do actually have friends, in dreams you really won't have friends. I believe that false perceptions of waking life become real in dreams and so dreams are an especially good tool to identify your unhealthy mental patterns and have potential to change greatly if one change one's waking life perception

      Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
      I am not one for labels. I have never been diagnosed but if I was I would say I have always had high social anxiety, anxiety and depression. This is why my dreams became so important to me from early on. I wish more children could learn to dream and use their dreams as I did, to better my life. In my dreams I had control even though in my RL I didn't but I modeled my life to my dreams in a sense. I would feel good doing things in my dreams and eventually bring that to my waking life. We CAN change things about ourselves that we are not happy with by practicing in our dreams. I always had the wrong interpretation about how others felt about me and didn't find out for many years the truth. I felt awkward in high school and yet was very popular. I chose to befriend those who noone else would give a chance. I knew by being a good person I could never go wrong. I don't thing dwelling on negatives are ever a good thing so see yourself as powerful and see yourself as someone the girls love (if this is what you desire) and you will see that once you believe it, it will happen. Practice this in your dreams or with visualization, see yourself being the person you want to become.
      I agree with what you say. I am surprised you say you practice in dreams. I tend to see dreams as a tool to gauge my mental health rather than a place to mold my sense of self. But maybe I do practice too like you; I do seek to act in dreams in a way that reflects the person I want to be.
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      Dreams have always been my safe place to practice real life. Sounds silly but it works for me. I gain my confidence in my dreams starting as early as I can remember...from potty training, riding my two wheeled bike, roller skating, show and tell in front of the class, learning with flash cards, spelling bees, talking to boys, kissing, sex, public speaking (which was never successful even in my dreams by the way) water skiing, I mean the list is never ending. Now I get answers in my dreams around 3:00 in the morning that are work related things that stump me, solutions are so clear in my dreams. I have been extremely depressed and literally talked myself right out of it in my dreams because I am in charge of me and my mind and I will not dwell on the bad but focus on the good. There is so much good around us if we open our eyes and just see it. I feel life is one big challenge and I love challenges. Take one challenge at a time. Just do it :-) You will see that you can do whatever you set your mind to.
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      That's quite beautiful

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      As far as sex goes...just know that you are important enough to have them seduce you...I am not a fan of people who take advantage of control even in dreams to force sex. Just doesn't seem right to me. Just visualize yourself as a guy that all of the women desire, hell they might start lining up :-).
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      While I am not mentally handicapped I do feel handicapped in social situations. Hence my phobia. My love for people is overstemmed by this great fear build up inside of me.

      I think I might pick up Serene's method and start practicing in dreams because i'm way phobic of backlashes to put myself in more traumatic situations which tend to feed my phobia as opposed to help.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
      As far as sex goes...just know that you are important enough to have them seduce you...I am not a fan of people who take advantage of control even in dreams to force sex. Just doesn't seem right to me. Just visualize yourself as a guy that all of the women desire, hell they might start lining up :-).
      On this subject, I agree. Forced sex is not sexy as most would agree.

      And for me, the way I see it, it is not that I have a problem thinking I am worthy of anyone's love. I do believe in my own worth and that of all other people. It's just stemming from my idealistic idea of connecting with people and how I never feel like people know who I am deep inside and vice versa. But now I think the way to go is to think "They know me" and "I know them" for both friendship and romance. That is, I am not a stranger to them and vice versa. While keeping in mind that people's experience is complex and can never be fully expressed short of experiencing it for yourself which is impossible. Thus, my new realistic idea of friendship and romance is a tame admiration and trust for someone where the knowledge of the other is superficial but valuable and mystery and curiosity of how the other experiences life may always be nourished thanks to that.

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      While I am not mentally handicapped I do feel handicapped in social situations. Hence my phobia. My love for people is overstemmed by this great fear build up inside of me.

      I think I might pick up Serene's method and start practicing in dreams because i'm way phobic of backlashes to put myself in more traumatic situations which tend to feed my phobia as opposed to help.
      I wish you great luck in that quest because the shedding of my own phobia is a very liberating process. In my own quest, despite my "phobia", I have long been able to do "risky" things for people with social anxiety, but though I could do this, it didn't solve my stress. I am sure this exposure is enough for some. For me, it's really thinking "I am safe" and "I belong" while with people and the fact that I truly believe it that has allowed me to not feel the physical stress.
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      How rude, I almost forgot to answer ur questions !

      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post

      I advise anyone else to try and comprehend which forces act upon ur own life and where you can take power and lucidity in ur real life.
      When you say, taking power and freedom to waking life, do you mean taking the sense of lucidity, freedom and control unique to lucid dreams into waking life in order to form a more positive and liberating attitude?
      Yes, that concept of lucidity is certainly valid.

      I also mean external forces. i.e: You are stuck in a job that you do not like. Take control over that part, that's a bad example in this world so i'll use another one Say u have a naggy brother who gets to you, the power is when you get up and say something to ur mom for example

      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post

      So it's not just related to social phobia.
      I agree. I believe the whole of our perception influences dreams. But, I think that unhealthy mental patterns have an especially important role. If you mis-perceive waking life, e.g. "I have no friends" when you do actually have friends, in dreams you really won't have friends. I believe that false perceptions of waking life become real in dreams and so dreams are an especially good tool to identify your unhealthy mental patterns and have potential to change greatly if one change one's waking life perception
      Ye? I think the dream doesn't only identify patterns, it does to me. It also offers advise and things like that. Dreams about girls are particularly interesting, whilst it doesn't give me direct advise 'bout how to approach them it does bring to awareness their points of view. Like a secret lover that has a crush on me has laid out in precise words how she feels. Or how I subconsciously think she does, but I don't think that's what going on here.

      ..

      I don't hav much time here, but there's really quite more running through my mind at this point so probably come back later
      Last edited by Threeofeight; 11-12-2016 at 11:05 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      How rude, I almost forgot to answer ur questions !


      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      Yes, that concept of lucidity is certainly valid.

      I also mean external forces. i.e: You are stuck in a job that you do not like. Take control over that part, that's a bad example in this world so i'll use another one Say u have a naggy brother who gets to you, the power is when you get up and say something to ur mom for example
      Gotcha!

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post

      Ye? I think the dream doesn't only identify patterns, it does to me. It also offers advise and things like that. Dreams about girls are particularly interesting, whilst it doesn't give me direct advise 'bout how to approach them it does bring to awareness their points of view. Like a secret lover that has a crush on me has laid out in precise words how she feels. Or how I subconsciously think she does, but I don't think that's what going on here.
      Interesting. I rarely see dreams as giving advice, though it makes sense you could find it in them. Do you mean girl DCs tell you how to treat them / are very expressive about their feelings or do you mean the dream's protagonist might be a girl DC so you intuitively understand her perspective?

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      I don't have much time here, but there's really quite more running through my mind at this point so probably come back later
      This thread will be waiting, that's what's good with the internet, conversations can travel through time in odd fashions.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      This thread will be waiting, that's what's good with the internet, conversations can travel through time in odd fashions.
      Freedom to me means getting to do as thou wilt. This is mostly an internal thing, like, control over what you do with ur human body be it socially, sexually even violently is your own responsibility. How will this affect the brain when you are mentally and physically repressed to do what you please. I bet nightmares start happening and the brain kind of numbs itself from lack of proper use. Freedom is being in the job around the people and in the place where you want to be the most. From a young age we're kind of told what to do starting with school life (which is kind of nice for most places) and then it goes downhill when say you get into trouble, put into foster homes, get stuck in a job, wrong girlfriend. all these attachments affect ur dream life I would say. So that's why I say to sevor from everyone who has an agenda with you. And take control.

      Then there's fears and social conventions that you don't have to abide to but not doing so results in social punishment. This ties in with sexuality the most because it's a desire everyone (most people atleast) has it but sex doesn't just happen consentually between two people without having at least a social bond before physical bond. Any repressions in this area have gotten into my dreams. Im desperately trying to break free from this bonds and breathe in the life I choose. Physically speaking this is as good as doing Dream skills with confidence in real life. Because Dream control is basically exerting Will over the dream. I hope that Exerting Will over one's life will serve as practice and repetitious and spill over in dream life so to speak. Possibly because I prefer dream life over real life

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      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      And take control.
      I think an important step is not only to "take control" but to realize that we already have control. Being able to sense that we do have control is necessary for healthy thinking, and is a strong motivator to "take control". To think we have no control over our lives is an unhealthy lie.

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      Physically speaking this is as good as doing Dream skills with confidence in real life. Because Dream control is basically exerting Will over the dream. I hope that Exerting Will over one's life will serve as practice and repetitious and spill over in dream life so to speak. Possibly because I prefer dream life over real life
      Yes, I agree that practicing having a sense of control in real life will lead to that same sense in dreams.
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      One possible trap to fall into when practicing Will in real life is that you start adjusting your will to accomodate to the circumstances in your life. But it's a fine balance that I'm taking slowly and steady. I find this is better than trying to do all at once and failing. Practically this to focus on a couple of things like social phobia and starting to feel comfortable around close friends first and then work ur way up to the president. But as long as there's a reason to actually want to hang out with friends. then I find the path is much clearer. So when I started there was a lot of fear at first you avoid situations that cause fear. But the fear is non-confidence that stems from not having a plan to deal with the situation. So then you work out what you want and the fear disapears. Ime

      Maybe telling yourself 'you belong' helped to adjust irrational thinking but the real reason ur building progress is cause you put attention to the situation and realize your place in the gestalt of ur social life . maybe, I think so
      Last edited by Threeofeight; 11-27-2016 at 10:08 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      One possible trap to fall into when practicing Will in real life is that you start adjusting your will to accommodate to the circumstances in your life.
      I'm interested to understand what you mean here, I don't quite understand. Our will is not omnipotent. We do not chose the world. But we have some control over how we think, feel, and act. So don't we have to accommodate to our circumstances in our lives?


      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      But the fear is non-confidence that stems from not having a plan to deal with the situation.
      I had to stop trying to have a plan. Sometimes, there just is no good way to respond to the things people say. Just realizing that I don't need to respond successfully to my social interactions, that's been a lot more confidence-boosting than all the practicing in my head. But in a way, that's what you said. Now I do have a plan to deal with social situations, that is, to remind myself that everything's okay, and I believe it.

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      Maybe telling yourself 'you belong' helped to adjust irrational thinking but the real reason ur building progress is cause you put attention to the situation and realize your place in the gestalt of ur social life . maybe, I think so
      I think that's about right.
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      I'll keep it short

      Our will is omnipotent. This world is not. And we make accomodations to come to terms with the world, but! if the world actually is omnipotent. Then we made a great mistake. and we're living up to someone else's standard of the world

      I want to realize what I want to see and no longer see myself lost in situations. When I'm thinking of past situations where I was lost and people still try to follow me I see myself standing up and leading the herd. So i'm happy about that. I no longer feel lost as much. '

      and that's just how natural I think it should feel.
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      I'm sorry but I just can't stop myself from going into this topic

      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      On this subject, I agree. Forced sex is not sexy as most would agree.
      I for one do not care if it's sexy. I'm willing to break some moral barriers for some good ole fashion fucking.
      The problem is in my dreams it's just not physically possible despite numerous attempts to actually force sex. Things won't insert. Genitals transform into feet. I'm either given something by the dream. Or nothing. And i'm literally wasting my time trying to do the deed everytime I get lucid. But the temptation is just too much sometimes, like, women appear in dreams in the blink of an eye and it's just within reach to have a touch.
      Do you think this is an unhealthy mental pattern. Why do you think the dream seems dead-set to stop me from having sex. I don't wanna sound juvenile but hey. We're all safe here.

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      Hey Threeofeight.

      It's funny you quoted me on that statement because it felt wrong after posting it. What I meant is that in real life, I believe almost everyone would be repulsed by non-consensual sex (both the would be "rapist" and "rape victim"). That's what I meant by forced sex is not sexy. However, dominance and submission are quite big in the realm of what is sexy. So playful "forced sex" could be sexy to all partners involved if consensual. And in dreams, there's only one partner so it is always consensual. The only problem is if you feel disturbed by what you find sexy, and then you need to find a balance between acceptance and deciding where your limits are. Anyways, that's my quick comment on my statement in your quote.

      As for your comment, it's hard for me to say if there are unhealthy mental patterns if I don't know how you feel in these recurring dream situations. Dreams are unstable experiences so it's normal to have "women appear in dreams in the blink of an eye and it's just within reach to have a touch" or "Genitals transform into feet" whether you have all perfect mental patterns or not. What I am saying in this thread is, if you feel the partner is always repulsed by you, then you can ask yourself if you feel that way in real life (even perhaps in a subtle way) and you see how you can have a healthier true attitude.
      ex. Everyone is repulsed by me (False)
      Everyone is attracted to me (False)
      Some people are attracted to me (True)
      Then you think that true thought every time you would rather think a false thought. And if this was a problem in the first place, I predict that sexual partners in dreams will be more likely to be willing partners especially if you know this other statement to be true "That people willing to have a sexual experience with you are more likely to be attracted to you". In real life, you have to see if the person flirts back and communicate and all of the human courting business to see if the partner is willing, but in quick dreams, you can experience any part of the courting process, even the final one without starting at the beginning. If so, the assumption should be that the partner is willing because you wouldn't be there otherwise. I just think that if someone addresses their real life insecurities, partners will be more willing in dreams.
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 12-03-2016 at 05:29 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Hey Threeofeight.

      It's funny you quoted me on that statement because it felt wrong after posting it. What I meant is that in real life, I believe almost everyone would be repulsed by non-consensual sex (both the would be "rapist" and "rape victim"). That's what I meant by forced sex is not sexy. However, dominance and submission are quite big in the realm of what is sexy. So playful "forced sex" could be sexy to all partners involved if consensual. And in dreams, there's only one partner so it is always consensual. The only problem is if you feel disturbed by what you find sexy, and then you need to find a balance between acceptance and deciding where your limits are. Anyways, that's my quick comment on my statement in your quote.

      As for your comment, it's hard for me to say if there are unhealthy mental patterns if I don't know how you feel in these recurring dream situations. Dreams are unstable experiences so it's normal to have "women appear in dreams in the blink of an eye and it's just within reach to have a touch" or "Genitals transform into feet" whether you have all perfect mental patterns or not. What I am saying in this thread is, if you feel the partner is always repulsed by you, then you can ask yourself if you feel that way in real life (even perhaps in a subtle way) and you see how you can have a healthier true attitude.
      ex. Everyone is repulsed by me (False)
      Everyone is attracted to me (False)
      Some people are attracted to me (True)
      Then you think that true thought every time you would rather think a false thought. And if this was a problem in the first place, I predict that sexual partners in dreams will be more likely to be willing partners especially if you know this other statement to be true "That people willing to have a sexual experience with you are more likely to be attracted to you". In real life, you have to see if the person flirts back and communicate and all of the human courting business to see if the partner is willing, but in quick dreams, you can experience any part of the courting process, even the final one without starting at the beginning. If so, the assumption should be that the partner is willing because you wouldn't be there otherwise. I just think that if someone addresses their real life insecurities, partners will be more willing in dreams.
      So what you might conclude is that sex in dreams could be more difficult when ur struggling with insecurities and inconfidence in real life. It's more likely to happen if I bring to the dream an approach to sex that is more adequate and applicable in real-life situations.
      That's what i'd say
      Also
      I think forced sex in dreams is a double-edged sword. I think some attempts to force a sexual experience with women are pure. And work perfectly well in the real world.
      I think there are also emotional states that work equally well in the dream world. But aren't so pure when the same emotion is applied to the real world. And equally isn't pure when facilitated in dreams.
      I think a right balance in the desire is a well-worth emotional goal to achieve

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      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      So what you might conclude is that sex in dreams could be more difficult when ur struggling with insecurities and inconfidence in real life...
      ... specifically related to romantic/sexual relationships. You may be confident at your trade but if your not confident with potential romantic partners and current romantic partners, than, that's when I predict sex dreams will be more difficult and less passionate.

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      It's more likely to happen if I bring to the dream an approach to sex that is more adequate and applicable in real-life situations.
      I don't think there's any effort that must be done to bring a real life approach to the dream experience. I just believe that the way we live our waking lives strengthens those specific neural pathways and you dream with the same brain. If you are insecure in real life, you will be insecure in dreams. And because dreams are completely created by you rather than by the external stimuli, not only will you feel a certain way, dream characters will act out those expectations.

      Quote Originally Posted by Threeofeight View Post
      I think forced sex in dreams is a double-edged sword. I think some attempts to force a sexual experience with women are pure. And work perfectly well in the real world.
      I think there are also emotional states that work equally well in the dream world. But aren't so pure when the same emotion is applied to the real world. And equally isn't pure when facilitated in dreams.
      I think a right balance in the desire is a well-worth emotional goal to achieve
      Working on confidence and self-acceptance and belonging is one thing. Working on desires is another. That's an interesting thought. What do you think you desire that leads to "unpure" dreams? (Honestly, I don't quite understand the meaning of morality and purity as well as I use to. Those words have become empty of meaning to me.)

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