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    Thread: I don't understand revenge

    1. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by JasonHerbalExt View Post
      forgiving makes you look like a bigger man.
      Not to predators.
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      Not to predators.
      Not to fruits and veggies either ..All they care about is to dance.
      You are not your thoughts...

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      From a philosophical and spiritual perspective, revenge does far more harm to the giver of revenge than the receiver. The hardest things to let go of and forgive are our own transgressions.
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      i don't know about that. if someone decided to get even with me by killing my family then kills himself afterwards i'd say he got off easy.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy View Post
      From a philosophical and spiritual perspective, revenge does far more harm to the giver of revenge than the receiver. The hardest things to let go of and forgive are our own transgressions.
      Why do you think that? I've seen people become ecstatic when they finally got long awaited revenge. The wife of civil rights leader Medgar Evers was pretty elated when Medgar's killer was finally convicted after more than two decades. Granting revenge is one of the important functions of the justice system.
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      Technically speaking, the justice system administers punishment as a disincentive against future transgression, not as revenge.

      So justice and revenge are two very distinct things. The prior serves a purpose towards maintaining an orderly and civilized society to the benefit of all. The latter serves ego's darker side. Whenever actions, thoughts and emotions serve ego's desires, they reinforce ego's hold over us. It's the antithesis of true awareness.

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      Like justasimplyguy said, revenge reinforces our ego over us. I can surely understand why people want revenge, but I do believe it is unhealthy for a person, and I also believe someone can learn to forgive, not that they would necessarily see why they need to do that.

      For me, I always go back to my lion/gazelle analogy. Both need to kill/starve the other or die themselves. They have to act in a way that is immoral because it kills the other but if they don't act that way, they die. The only way to be moral in that scenario is to hold no hate for the one you kill, but continue to realize that they are another sentient being, in a different context. You eat them, but you love them at the same time. In the case of revenge or justice, one should do it dutifully, not with hatred for the other. We could all have been Hitler, if we were born with his gene, biological disposition and the context. The proof, is all of Germany went along with him, and Germans are not any different than any of us. We can realize that Hitler's acts were horrible, and should have been prevented. But to hate him for it is missing the point. Because, to hate him, is also to hate yourself, you could have done it too. It's not constructive, in builds a bridge between us humans.
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    8. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy View Post
      Technically speaking, the justice system administers punishment as a disincentive against future transgression, not as revenge.

      So justice and revenge are two very distinct things. The prior serves a purpose towards maintaining an orderly and civilized society to the benefit of all. The latter serves ego's darker side. Whenever actions, thoughts and emotions serve ego's desires, they reinforce ego's hold over us. It's the antithesis of true awareness.
      It is not written in the law that justice involves revenge, but revenge is an aspect that comes with punishment of wrong doing. Revenge is also a virtue that most judges are aware of and respect.

      Revenge is not about ego, at least not in terms of vanity. It is about satisfying a primitive craving to punish evil. It evolved due to the justice purpose you described. That relates to why the will for revenge was very necessary for our ancestors' survival in the wild, and that is one of the reasons I believe we all have it.

      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Like justasimplyguy said, revenge reinforces our ego over us. I can surely understand why people want revenge, but I do believe it is unhealthy for a person, and I also believe someone can learn to forgive, not that they would necessarily see why they need to do that.

      For me, I always go back to my lion/gazelle analogy. Both need to kill/starve the other or die themselves. They have to act in a way that is immoral because it kills the other but if they don't act that way, they die. The only way to be moral in that scenario is to hold no hate for the one you kill, but continue to realize that they are another sentient being, in a different context. You eat them, but you love them at the same time. In the case of revenge or justice, one should do it dutifully, not with hatred for the other. We could all have been Hitler, if we were born with his gene, biological disposition and the context. The proof, is all of Germany went along with him, and Germans are not any different than any of us. We can realize that Hitler's acts were horrible, and should have been prevented. But to hate him for it is missing the point. Because, to hate him, is also to hate yourself, you could have done it too. It's not constructive, in builds a bridge between us humans.
      There is a moral difference between initiatory aggression and retaliatory aggression. They are not on the same level.

      Nobody truly forgives unless the enemy is repentant or the offense was not very severe. People who have truly been deeply wronged and never got any form of apology do not ever fully forgive. They just sometimes tell themselves they did so they can move on. As I said earlier, nobody is above the will for revenge. It is in all of us. That doesn't mean everybody faces their true feelings.
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      Above and beyond justice or survival, what does revenge serve except ego? From a logical, philosophical and spiritual perspective I come up empty. As I see it, it serves no greater good nor any personal good. It's a poison self-administered to one's being and essence.

      My observation is most who exact or revel in revenge usually regret it. It is the icing on the cake of the original injury.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      There is a moral difference between initiatory aggression and retaliatory aggression. They are not on the same level.
      I agree that they are not on the same level, just like lying to a child, telling them their grandmother went on vacation (when she actually died) so as to wait for the right moment to break out the news because you don't feel you can do it right now, is not the same, morally, as lying to someone, telling them their husband cheated on them when he actually didn't. But, even while the first lie is not a lie with ill-intentions, it is morally virtuous, in my opinion, to still realize that the lie is not morally perfect. What I mean is sometimes we are lead to do things that are not morally good, but it is still acceptable or necessary to do them. Ideally, a person should be able to realize, despite being justified by their actions, what they are doing is wrong. (although there is no better way.)

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Nobody truly forgives unless the enemy is repentant or the offense was not very severe. People who have truly been deeply wronged and never got any form of apology do not ever fully forgive. They just sometimes tell themselves they did so they can move on. As I said earlier, nobody is above the will for revenge. It is in all of us. That doesn't mean everybody faces their true feelings.
      I take it, you have been wronged. If so, I will never win an argument with you because you know that what you are experiencing is true.

      I have had a similar conversation with my mom and she agrees with you who believe that certain things can never be forgiven. And I can't argue with that. Because she was wronged in a horrible way, one that affected her health.

      Us who disagree, however, are in a tough position, it is like a man interested in discussing the morality of abortion, but the women around say he has no right to give an opinion because he is a man and this is only about woman. The truth is, a father is also affected by the choice of abortion or not abortion so men should not be completely shunned from that discussion. It's just an awkward position here, where we say that we believe that not everyone is subjected to revenge but then everyone who feels that emotion of vengefulness scream back "you know nothing about being wronged!"

      I have forgiven everything that was done to me. You'll say I wasn't truly wronged if I was able to forgive. Maybe. Maybe, I would be vengeful if someone did something worst... But that doesn't change that I am only one person. And you all are just another handful of people. I am 99% sure that there is one other human being in this world, in human history, that was wronged in a horrible, unforgivable way, and that genuinely forgave anyways.

      When we talk about dreams, we say, don't limit yourself! Everything is possible and the limits you put on yourselves will become limits, limits that don't have to be there. I say it's the same with our emotions. Everything is possible but if you want to limit yourself, be it.

      Revenge is an interesting thing.

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      I think this short 59 sec clip, will represent one of the most difficult situation for any human to be in. And stil be able to show any kind of authentic forgiveness in. So this puts the need of revenge vs forgivness in some bigger perspective I think.

      Im not following any religion and never have. And even though I've started to take a much bigger interest in various religions nowadays, without the need to subscribing myself to any. I feel confident enough to state that this got to be the representitiv act or fruit out of which religion was supposed to reached for in every human being, that join in and praticed their specific religion. Unfortunately, true forgivness and acceptence of other beings are more of a rare phenomenon. And almost a confusing concept for the majority of people when it reaches to such a high degree as shown in this short video.

      Forgiveness is far from easy for most people, and thats why the urge for revenge most often takes it place since it needs no understanding to feel that way. Revenge is the natural state or the first basic level of protecting something. The other side of the coin (forgiveness) takes a lot more effort to develop, since it require a lot of understanding inorder to authentically feel it as the more resonable way of acting out of, to be the replacement of revenge. Forgiveness will always beat revange at so many levels, but only if the forgiveness is as authentic as revenge naturaly is. And with all this said, Im not saying that people who urge for revenge is less good or plain stupied in any way. It's merely about different ways of living and nothing more.
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    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy View Post
      Above and beyond justice or survival, what does revenge serve except ego? From a logical, philosophical and spiritual perspective I come up empty. As I see it, it serves no greater good nor any personal good. It's a poison self-administered to one's being and essence.

      My observation is most who exact or revel in revenge usually regret it. It is the icing on the cake of the original injury.
      That's like asking what purpose masturbation serves other than ego. It satisfies an innate craving. It doesn't have to have anything to do with self-image.

      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      I agree that they are not on the same level, just like lying to a child, telling them their grandmother went on vacation (when she actually died) so as to wait for the right moment to break out the news because you don't feel you can do it right now, is not the same, morally, as lying to someone, telling them their husband cheated on them when he actually didn't. But, even while the first lie is not a lie with ill-intentions, it is morally virtuous, in my opinion, to still realize that the lie is not morally perfect. What I mean is sometimes we are lead to do things that are not morally good, but it is still acceptable or necessary to do them. Ideally, a person should be able to realize, despite being justified by their actions, what they are doing is wrong. (although there is no better way.)
      If there is no better way, then how is it wrong?

      When you watch movies where the "good guy" gets revenge, are you at all glad that he got it?

      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      I take it, you have been wronged. If so, I will never win an argument with you because you know that what you are experiencing is true.

      I have had a similar conversation with my mom and she agrees with you who believe that certain things can never be forgiven. And I can't argue with that. Because she was wronged in a horrible way, one that affected her health.

      Us who disagree, however, are in a tough position, it is like a man interested in discussing the morality of abortion, but the women around say he has no right to give an opinion because he is a man and this is only about woman. The truth is, a father is also affected by the choice of abortion or not abortion so men should not be completely shunned from that discussion. It's just an awkward position here, where we say that we believe that not everyone is subjected to revenge but then everyone who feels that emotion of vengefulness scream back "you know nothing about being wronged!"

      I have forgiven everything that was done to me. You'll say I wasn't truly wronged if I was able to forgive. Maybe. Maybe, I would be vengeful if someone did something worst... But that doesn't change that I am only one person. And you all are just another handful of people. I am 99% sure that there is one other human being in this world, in human history, that was wronged in a horrible, unforgivable way, and that genuinely forgave anyways.

      When we talk about dreams, we say, don't limit yourself! Everything is possible and the limits you put on yourselves will become limits, limits that don't have to be there. I say it's the same with our emotions. Everything is possible but if you want to limit yourself, be it.

      Revenge is an interesting thing.
      That might be the difference in our perspectives. If you are ever seriously wronged, you will probably see revenge as completely righteous.

      By the way, I am not encouraging anybody to break the law or put themselves in dangerous situations. Although words like "justice" and "compensation" are often used so people can sound moral and professional, I think the court system is mostly about revenge.

      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      I think this short 59 sec clip, will represent one of the most difficult situation for any human to be in. And stil be able to show any kind of authentic forgiveness in. So this puts the need of revenge vs forgivness in some bigger perspective I think.
      I have believed for a long time that a great way to punish somebody for evil behavior is to appeal to whatever level of conscience that person might have. I wish we could give murderers and rapists consciences so they could be tortured by them. What the guy in the video did was barbecue the bit of conscience the murderer had. As far as I am concerned, it was effective revenge.
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 01-22-2015 at 11:08 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      If there is no better way, then how is it wrong?
      Actually, your statement, in my opinion, the source of most evil on this planet.

      We humans live emotional experiences. We have little control over our lives, over our thoughts, over our emotions and over our actions. I see us as castaways on a raft in the middle of a storm. When we do things, we are often in positions of "I don't see how I could have done this any better" even if harm was caused. And then, we tell ourselves, well, if there is no better way, then how is it wrong? Then we lose all sense of right and wrong. (I might have used words that over-dramatized my point, but this remains true if you make my statement less dramatic).

      Getting vengeance, is maybe, justifiable. Being justified does not make it good. I will help make things clear with this thought experiment:

      I am taken hostage. I am informed that a bomb will explode, killing 10000 people. But, I can click on a button, which will disarm the bomb. But, instead, it will sink a ship, with a criminal and a few innocent people. Whatever. None of the two options are good. But you have no choice but to make a choice. So you make a choice, that is justified, and necessary. But to say that it is empty of "wrong" and is fully "good" is missing the point.

      If you say that something is not wrong just because there is no other way, it's that you're being defensive and trying to justify yourself. You don't need to justify yourself, you already are. I'm not saying someone is wrong for seeking revenge, just that the fact that the whole thing is not a good thing should not be glossed over. Sometimes, we have to do bad things. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't make us bad people.

      (please remove only unpleasant tones I may have used writing these last posts, I'm not good at sounding respectful, which is how I feel inside.)

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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      What the guy in the video did was barbecue the bit of conscience the murderer had. As far as I am concerned, it was effective revenge.
      I think you have it reversed. The first two family members of victims damned him and attempted to shame him to no avail. The third gentleman did no such thing. He extended forgiveness to the man and that triggered the unexpected emotional reaction. That's the powerful message I take away from that short clip.

      Furthermore, which of the three do you think walked out of that courtroom more tormented?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Actually, your statement, in my opinion, the source of most evil on this planet.

      We humans live emotional experiences. We have little control over our lives, over our thoughts, over our emotions and over our actions. I see us as castaways on a raft in the middle of a storm. When we do things, we are often in positions of "I don't see how I could have done this any better" even if harm was caused. And then, we tell ourselves, well, if there is no better way, then how is it wrong? Then we lose all sense of right and wrong. (I might have used words that over-dramatized my point, but this remains true if you make my statement less dramatic).

      Getting vengeance, is maybe, justifiable. Being justified does not make it good. I will help make things clear with this thought experiment:

      I am taken hostage. I am informed that a bomb will explode, killing 10000 people. But, I can click on a button, which will disarm the bomb. But, instead, it will sink a ship, with a criminal and a few innocent people. Whatever. None of the two options are good. But you have no choice but to make a choice. So you make a choice, that is justified, and necessary. But to say that it is empty of "wrong" and is fully "good" is missing the point.

      If you say that something is not wrong just because there is no other way, it's that you're being defensive and trying to justify yourself. You don't need to justify yourself, you already are. I'm not saying someone is wrong for seeking revenge, just that the fact that the whole thing is not a good thing should not be glossed over. Sometimes, we have to do bad things. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't make us bad people.

      (please remove only unpleasant tones I may have used writing these last posts, I'm not good at sounding respectful, which is how I feel inside.)
      I think we are having a semantic difference here. A decision can have terrible aspects and outcomes but still be the moral decision. That doesn't mean there are no problems with it. When I asked how there could be anything wrong with doing what is the best alternative, the word "wrong" meant "immoral," not "problematic."

      Quote Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy View Post
      I think you have it reversed. The first two family members of victims damned him and attempted to shame him to no avail. The third gentleman did no such thing. He extended forgiveness to the man and that triggered the unexpected emotional reaction. That's the powerful message I take away from that short clip.

      Furthermore, which of the three do you think walked out of that courtroom more tormented?
      I agree that's what he did, but the effect was that he made the scuzz bucket deal with what he had done. It might not have been intentional revenge, but it qualified. He burned that guy's ass by saying what he said. I love it. It is the best example of "kill with kindness" I have ever seen.

      I don't know who walked out of there the most tormented. They all got to see justice happen on two levels, so they were probably all pretty satisfied with how things turned out. Do you think they would have been less tormented if the defendant rolled his eyes at them and flipped them off and then got a suspended sentence?
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      I have believed for a long time that a great way to punish somebody for evil behavior is to appeal to whatever level of conscience that person might have. I wish we could give murderers and rapists consciences so they could be tortured by them. What the guy in the video did was barbecue the bit of conscience the murderer had. As far as I am concerned, it was effective revenge.
      I dont think we nee to torture people who makes crimes like murder and rapists. I think their own minds are hell enough for them, and thats why they do what they do. Making wrong decisions. Im aware that they create problems for others in their way.And not feeling revenge when something like a murder or rape have been taking place, that sure got to be a tough spot to handle to say the least.. Unfortunately, people who urge for revenge for their family member or friend.. Might actually tend to forget to be there for the person they care about. And instead focusing all their energy on the urge or plan for revenge.

      I've read in a news article before, about a 14 year old girl in india that had been raped. And when her dad heard about it. He descided to invite the rapist for a dinner, and the rapist showed up to the dinner. And that come to be his last dinner, because her dad aranged all this for his urge for revenge. And manage to torture the rapist to death. And who can blame him for feeling his blinded rage.. The emotions was to strong and a lot of people would probably think all this was good. But not only had the 14 year girl have to live with the memories of being raped, she also had to call the cops on her own dad for murder. And the girl lost her dad, and the dad lost his freedom. And one lost his life. So revenge is always the happy ending right?

      I however do think revenge can be useful and good in some situations, but those situations should not include any life threatening violence, thats for sure. I'd say that revenge can learn people to change for the better, but the revenge should for the absolute mostpart. Be acted out in a playful manner.




      He burned that guy's ass by saying what he said. I love it. It is the best example of "kill with kindness" I have ever seen.
      No no no, not at all. What happened was that when he heard that he was forgiven. He then got such a moment of relief, that he bursted into tears. That's how powerful forgiveness can be. The convicted didn't even react to the hate he got, because he already knew he was a monster to himself. But when he heard that he was forgiven, then he got a glimpse of what he never thought he would be able to hear. That someone, simply could forgive him for what he had done. So that situation wasn't even near any "kill them with kindness" act. That's a complete different thing than what happened here.
      Last edited by Sivason; 01-24-2015 at 10:09 PM.
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      As I said earlier, I don't promote breaking the law or getting into dangerous situations to get revenge. We have a court system for that. The guy in India did something insane to get revenge. However, I also think it's unfortunate that his daughter reported him. That situation shows how much people crave revenge. Don't you think the courts should give it to them? Shouldn't courts value victims' and victims' families' overwhelming cravings for revenge over some piece of shit rapist or murderer's well being? I think it is an absolute injustice when violent criminals get suspended sentences. It involves favoring the bad guy over the good guys. I always side with the good guys.

      I disagree with you on what the guy in the video was crying about. I think whatever level of conscience he had was brought out by an adversary who expressed a lack of will to attack. That took the scum bag's guard down, and that made him have to deal with what he had done. Maybe he was also really glad to be forgiven, but I don't think it's the full picture of what happened.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I think we are having a semantic difference here. A decision can have terrible aspects and outcomes but still be the moral decision. That doesn't mean there are no problems with it. When I asked how there could be anything wrong with doing what is the best alternative, the word "wrong" meant "immoral," not "problematic."
      I agree with you, this is evidently a semantic problem. I get the feeling everyone here agrees with each other but we express our opinions differently so it sounds like we're arguing.

      Building on what DreamyBear is saying, I think that revenge (harmful actions taken out of passionate spite), no matter how justifiable and (righteous?, a proof of the person's love and emotions, just beautiful really), is not a light matter. It's a serious matter, that's not fun at all. It's dark business no matter what.

      If something is moral, it sounds like it should be celebrated. If something is immoral, it sounds like it should be shunned. But revenge should not be celebrated, I don't think so.

      For example, when Bin Laden was killed, people were so happy. They sang and screamed with joy. I don't judge them, because, I guess it must of been a relief. But I think it's more righteous, whatever the value of that word is, is to just take a moment, to sort of "mourn" the whole situation and just feel bad about all of it. I think it's sad that people died because of this man. I find it sad too, that he had to die, I feel it sad that he lived that life. I don't know. I can only feel bad for bad people. I would hate to be them. To be in the circumstances of life and genes that bring you to do those things and all... Urg. If I got revenge, I would just need some time to be depressed before I could go back to my normal life.

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      As I said earlier, I don't promote breaking the law or getting into dangerous situations to get revenge. We have a court system for that. The guy in India did something insane to get revenge. However, I also think it's unfortunate that his daughter reported him. That situation shows how much people crave revenge. Don't you think the courts should give it to them? Shouldn't courts value victims' and victims' families' overwhelming cravings for revenge over some piece of shit rapist or murderer's well being? I think it is an absolute injustice when violent criminals get suspended sentences. It involves favoring the bad guy over the good guys. I always side with the good guys.
      Just to make myself clear on this. I understand how you think, and I dont condemn your view in any way. It's just that, if we try to surpress and give the "bad-guys" a harder time by getting our emotions clear by revenge on them. Then we have to take the consequences of that all people who makes terrible choice in life like murder and rape etc. They will continuing to do these crimes since they now that they never have a chance to get back once they are condemn and get the lable as a criminal. Very few realize on their own that what they did in the past doesnt have to be their continous path all their life. So many people who once got labeled as criminals feel as they have got abandoned by society, and start to get more agressive and violent to survive in other ways of illegal business since they are no good to fit in anymore.

      Kids who get abused or beaten up by their parents during childhood, they are the one we later condemn, since they most likely are the one's that develope the mindsets of wrong doings, and becomes these criminals that we hate so much. Kids that never got any fair chance to get any safe and caring childhood for them when they most needed it. They will probably have a very hard time to differentiate between what is right or wrong, both in childhood and as an adult. Since they got so misstreated during the most important time in their life when they should have learned how to become a functional human being in a society. So if these criminals never gets forgiven or understood, then we have to accept that we always will have criminals in various degrees around us, that might act out of their agressivness on anyone in their way. No matter how much revenge we will be able to punish criminals with.


      I disagree with you on what the guy in the video was crying about. I think whatever level of conscience he had was brought out by an adversary who expressed a lack of will to attack. That took the scum bag's guard down, and that made him have to deal with what he had done. Maybe he was also really glad to be forgiven, but I don't think it's the full picture of what happened.
      Then we have to agree to disagree. But I agree with you that it made him have to reflect over what he had done. But thats also the thing with forgiveness. It makes the forgiven to get some space for an honest reflection over what they have done. And that could lead to a final realization of their own wrong doing. Well at least he had a short moment of relief that overwhelmed him, but yeah he's probably not going to be able to feel that kind of relief once again.
      You are not your thoughts...

    20. #45
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      It is a weakness in our spirit perhaps. Spiritual immaturity ?

    21. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by priceleecushing View Post
      It is a weakness in our spirit perhaps. Spiritual immaturity ?
      I would say it is our spirits strenght to forgive. And rather the egos immaturity or lack of understanding to perceive forgivness as weakness.
      You are not your thoughts...

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