Work Area for SP sticky thread.

[Sivason]

I created this thread for some of thee staff and experts to compose a group effort sticky. If you want to discuss the topic in general then please use the thread in this link, http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/sleep-...80/index5.html This thread is reserved for those who are going to work on composing the thread. For example my next effort will be a short intro to the thread, then I would get input and suggestions. Each cotributor can post there rough draft here and go through the same process. I just want to avoid cluttering Mzzck's thread.

[Sivason]

http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/laberg...5/#post1945179Over 12 years ago they publish an eight page paper, and the only mention of SP is 3-4 sentences, simply saying some people experience it. No suggestion that is should be part of WILD [LaBerge, S. & DeGracia, D.J. (2000). Varieties of lucid dreaming experience. In R.G. Kunzendorf & B. Wallace (Eds.), Individual Differences in Conscious Experience (pp. 269-307). Amsterdam: John Benjamins. (Available from Amazon.com here.) ] Varieties of Lucid Dreaming Experience Stephen LaBerge * and Donald J. DeGracia † ~~~Sleep paralysis is commonly reported both by nonlucid and lucid dreamers. Sleep paralysis involves the intrusion of peripheral somatosensory input associated with REM atonia into the dreamer’s consciousness. Closely related to sleep paralysis is the commonly reported feature of the difficulty of moving or talking in dreams, often when the dreamer is subject to a threat. This feature is also reported by lucid dreamers, and again suggests intrusion of peripheral somatosensory afferent information into dream consciousness.~~~ They also only give the following details on doing a WILD and experiencing HI, ~~~2. Wake-Initiated Lucid Dreams It is possible to maintain continuous reflective consciousness while falling asleep and hence to enter a lucid dream directly from the waking state. As with DILDs, this form of lucid dream initiation is a skill that improves with motivation and practice. Its cultivation has been described by Tibetan yogis, and several modern sources (LaBerge 1985; LaBerge and Rheingold 1990; Ouspensky, 1960; Rogo 1983). WILDs are most likely to occur after awakening in the morning or during afternoon naps (LaBerge, 1980). While falling asleep, the subject’s mind is kept focused and lucid through the transition from waking to dreaming. Experiences of visual and auditory hypnagogic imagery are common during this transition. Unusual somesthetic imagery may also occur; subjects may feel themselves “float” or “sink out of their body”. There may (e.g. SLB561) or may not (e.g. SLB37) be a momentary break in subjects’ consciousness. Then the subjects will find themselves fully in a dream scene and lucid. Once in the dream-state, the lucid dream continues exactly like those initiated directly from the dream state. ~~~ They only mention that HI stuff may occur and do not mention it being needed. Stephen LaBerge did write an article about SP, but it only tells about what it is, and makes a claim, that some people may be able to enter an LD from this state He does not talk at all about anyone attempting to get SP. the link I ound was 2003, but it could be older. I posted a copy of that article here, So, i have to admit that as I already had good skills, I never really read any of the modern books out there. A few months back I ordered them, and never got to looking at them. So, currently i am uninformed about much of LaBerge's stuff. Does he say much about SP in his books? I will dig them out and look before long, unless one of you can help me out. So, this is what i intend this thread to be. An area where we can arange material before creating the stickie thread. More to come. If you want to just rework a bit of info or ideas you have already posted elsewhere it could save time, and I am more than fine with that. I will probably just do something from my past posts and tweak it a bit.

[CJC]

i assume this is only for the forum runner people right?

[Sivason]

Yeah, we are going to put together a thread, and I did not want to clutter Mzzkc's thread.

[Sageous]

Sivason: Can I make a truly heretical remark about LaBerge's work? After he scientifically proved that LD'ing was real, he kind of coasted on that breakthrough from then on. Though EWOLD is rightfully the bible of LD'ing, "God" has been on break in Hawaii since then. I don't mean this in a disparaging way, Stephen is a very bright and very good man, and likely knows as much about the function of LD'ing as anyone alive, but he really hasn't added much of real substance to his work since EWOLD, which I believe he published in 1990. So you might not want to knock yourself out looking for stuff after EWOLD -- I would even bet that that note about SP was little more than dutiful lip-service to the growing crowd of dreamers who were incorrectly attaching value to SP and HI. I have a feeling that Stephen would be the first to tell you that, given our accumulated experience, we may be better sources for this new guide than he. I hope that made sense, and I hope that I don't get struck by lightning anytime soon.

[Sivason]

I have to make a Heretical remark myself. Until about a year ago I had never heard about him. I went ahead and ordered his books, just to see, but as i LD just fine, I have yet to pick one up. Chances are anyone here knows more about him than me. I was just surfing to see if anything he said contradicts our premise. Also if I link to a article by a known Doctor in the feild, it gives people something with substance. I see him tell about true SP as an illness and give one example of a guy turning a bad SP into a good LD. That would only be good advice for someone suffering from true SP. He does not support the concept of SP being a part of WILD or suggest anyone try to create an SP state. But the article may have been the starting point for misunderstanding. That was not my intro by the way. I just stuck it there to get comments, and because I may link to the SP article.

[Sageous]

^^ Fair enough. I think that, should you read EWOLD, you'll mostly be nodding a lot. But it is a good read, and I don't think anything Stephen said in that particular book contradicts your premise ... indeed, it will likely solidify it -- so I guess you were doing the right thing! More later.

[Sivason]

First Draft Intro, take a look and make suggestions or comments, Many of the staff and long term members have decided that a serious misunderstanding about Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers. We have ended up having to answer more questions about SP than pretty much anything else. First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis): The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition, that effects the ability to wake up properly. People with this condition wake up partially but feel as if they are trapped. They have almost no strength to get up, and often are having a fearful experience. It is a sleep disorder. From my basic search for info, it looks like about 1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis. A man named Dr. Stephen LaBerge is very well known for clinical research into lucid dreaming. Here is an article he wrote that gives more details. I also feel this article may be the starting place for the current state of confusion. Please take a minute to read it over, http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/laberg...alysis-136535/ He tells what SP is. He tells people if they experience it, just understand what is happening and stay calm. He also suggests that based on one man’s experience, someone stuck in SP might be able to instead go into a lucid dream. I assume the confusion about the term happened like this. Someone probably wrote a guide telling the sufferers of SP how they could convert the terrifying state into a WILD. Well, that is of no use what so every to 249 out 250 of us! The ideas probably got spread incorrectly as normal WILD event. It is not a normal WILD event, so don’t even think about it, that is just a waste of time. The next step in the term getting so misused is people like me trying to explain how to do a correct WILD. When people have come to me and said “someone told me I had to reach SP”, I would just say “you do not reach a point when you cannot move. SP is what stops your sleeping body from acting out dreams.” That is not actually true, the normal condition that prevents you from jerking around in bed, during a dream is properly called REM atonia. The LD community has been calling REM atonia by the wrong name (SP) and we should stop doing it. So what does REM atonia mean? It is a change in chemicals and brain function that makes your body hold more or less still while you dream. REM atonia does not prevent you from waking yourself up and moving normally[/B]. That is why it is not SP! It is just awareness during sleep of some process that happens, and does not truely prevent you from moving. It feels like you are not really connected to your body and many people describe it as a heavy blanket feeling. Some people, like me, actually feel the chemical change start. It may feel like you are on narcotics, and moving would take a concious effort. Here is why we talk about it (incorrectly calling it SP.) In a WILD you are attempting to stay aware while your body falls asleep. You will be able to experience the stages of sleep and one event you can sometimes experience is REM atonia. Some methods of WILD use this as a mile post in the WILD process. In my WILDs, for instance, when I experience REM atonia, I change my mindset from an anchor (counting, mantra) to trying visualization to induce a dream. [B] People just started calling it SP. Again, it is using the term incorrectly and adds to the confusion.[B] Let’s all agree to stop using the term as it just complicates everything. Call REM atonia by its true name, describe what you mean if it is not REM atonia you have been using SP for, or coin a phrase that you can use instead. Here is what six well known experts and staff have to say in support of you all not worrying about SP and moving on to some useful material.

[Sivason]

My contribution, rough draft. comments welcome. I have used the term SP incorrectly in the past to describe a state where the WILDer experiences the chemical changes of REM atonia. In my method of WILDing you observe the progress of your sleep, and when you feel REM atonia, you shift what your mind is doing. Many people call REM atonia SP, but I intend to never use the term SP to describe it again. It is not hard to type out 'REM atonia' instead of SP. Using the term SP causes every one to become confused. I use a system that does require an awareness of REM atonia, and I will continue to teach it, but lets all stop calling it SP. By learning what each part of your sleep feels like, you can improve your chances of pulling off a WILD. If you are reading a tutorial from now on, I suggest you take the term SP to mean REM atonia, or an awareness that such a state has been reached. That is unless it involves you supposedly being able to start moving in a dream, because you are supposedly paralysised; I would laugh those off and find a new tutorial altogether, if it metions that kind of stuff. It is only going to work for 1 in 250 of us. I have sucessfully been using WILD methods for over 20 years, but on no occasion have I been even slightly paralyzed! I sometimes feel as if moving would be hard, but that is a natural feeling, because my body has fallen asleep. I can always get my body to move if needed. Do not worry about SP and move on to some training that actually works. Unless you were experiencing SP before you wanted to learn lucid dreaming, you will probably never experience it and can forget about it. Please stop using the term SP and forget the idea entirely! You will not every reach actual SP, so let's move forward, leaving the days of SP confusion behind us.

[Sageous]

Sivason, regarding your intro: Though chronic SP is a medical condition, I suppose, I think you might mention more clearly that everyone experiences REM Atonia every night, and occasionally, when their awareness enters waking life slightly ahead of their body, they witness that REM Atonia first hand. That witnessing of a nightly event is what's become known as SP, and not the medical condition. I think that will lend more credibility to the folks who have wrapped all their LD'ing expectations around "SP," and make them more able to understand that the stuff they're experiencing is either not true SP at all, or something they're inventing during times that REM Atonia hasn't occurred yet. One tiny editorial note: you said, "SP is what stops you from acting out dreams.” You might instead say something like, "SP is what stops you from acting out your dreams in the physical world.”

[Sageous]

I feel like I'm not working fast enough, so I swiped a couple of paragraphs from my DVA WILD class about the "noise." I don't think its enough, but I'll try to add more or get rid of unnecessary crap shortly. Let me know if I'm at least playing in the right court, though, or if I should be mentioning something else. Fair warning -- there's an excellent chance I'll wake up tomorrow with an actual idea and change everything (not the concepts, of course; just the words)! Here we go: First, I have had many thousands of WILD's, and never once cared about SP, much less looked for it. No one should. SP is not a mystical or unusual event by any measure because REM Atonia happens naturally every time you are in REM -- it must occur, or else we’d all be flailing about in our beds, or sleepwalking, or shouting, or … well, you get it. That you are consciously aware of it because it remained switched on a bit too long or switched on early does not make it special, unless you consider your ability to defy nature and notice it something special -- which is a pretty cool thing, I suppose. SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LD’ing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP. It is critical for WILD that you understand that SP is not dangerous: it is not an invasion by monsters, or your body failing you, or a break from reality, or any of the other things noted on the forums by breathless dreamers who encounter SP unprepared. It is just a natural bodily function that you happen to notice because you possess waking awareness at a time when nature never intended you to be awake. So if you ever encounter SP (I rarely do) just relax, acknowledge it, and move on! Most of the time SP isn’t really even SP: People who are talking about their experiences in SP are really talking about their experiences in NREM sleep, which can include the vibrations, sensory deprivation, and other assorted bells and whistles associated with SP these days. This is sort of a shame, because consciously navigating NREM sleep is an adventure unto itself (and, BTW, the place the Tibetan sleep yogis like to visit), and to belittle it by calling it SP is to miss out on an otherwise good thing.

[Sageous]

I feel like I'm not working fast enough, so I swiped a couple of paragraphs from my DVA WILD class about the "noise." I don't think its enough, but I'll try to add more or get rid of unnecessary crap shortly. Let me know if I'm at least playing in the right court, though, or if I should be mentioning something else. Fair warning -- there's an excellent chance I'll wake up tomorrow with an actual idea and change everything (not the concepts, of course; just the words)! Here we go: First, I have had many thousands of WILD's, and never once cared about SP, much less looked for it. No one should. SP is not a mystical or unusual event by any measure because REM Atonia happens naturally every time you are in REM -- it must occur, or else we’d all be flailing about in our beds, or sleepwalking, or shouting, or … well, you get it. That you are consciously aware of it because it remained switched on a bit too long or switched on early does not make it special, unless you consider your ability to defy nature and notice it something special -- which is a pretty cool thing, I suppose. SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LD’ing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP. It is critical for WILD that you understand that SP is not dangerous: it is not an invasion by monsters, or your body failing you, or a break from reality, or any of the other things noted on the forums by breathless dreamers who encounter SP unprepared. It is just a natural bodily function that you happen to notice because you possess waking awareness at a time when nature never intended you to be awake. So if you ever encounter SP (I rarely do) just relax, acknowledge it, and move on! Most of the time SP isn’t really even SP: People who are talking about their experiences in SP are really talking about their experiences in NREM sleep, which can include the vibrations, sensory deprivation, and other assorted bells and whistles associated with SP these days. This is sort of a shame, because consciously navigating NREM sleep is an adventure unto itself (and, BTW, the place the Tibetan sleep yogis like to visit), and to belittle it by calling it SP is to miss out on an otherwise good thing.

[Sivason]

Great Sageous. That looks like what we are after. If you use it, please just stream line it into three paragraphs. Thanks for your help. I will rework the intro a bit and consider your suggestions.

[melanieb]

I read through a lot of that and I believe, if we want this to be a comprehensive guide to be stickied that we remove references to "I feel" and "I think" so it reads more like an instructive or helpful guide and less like someone's blog. Unless the desire is to cover the basics at the beginning and then provide relevant experience from each contributor to back up the information throughout the rest of the post, it might read better without the words "I think" and "I feel" scattered through the information. I'm not contributing anything yet because I would like to see the material supplied before I see if anything needs to be added or removed. I know you guys have the best experience with this.

[Mzzkc]

I like the idea of adding in personal experience in addition to more technical instruction. We all have stories that helped us form our current "expert" opinion. If we share them, the readers may see why what we're saying is relevant and ultimately, accurate. Plus, such content will make the guide more entertaining and thus more likely to be read. Possible format of sticky: Intro: Covers purpose; abstract. Expert Analysis/Opinion: Expert Name Technical Stuff: blah Personal Stuff: blah Resources: linky-things Expert Name......etc. Conclusion: Broad Summary Endorsement of all Involved.

[Sivason]

I like the idea of adding in personal experience in addition to more technical instruction. We all have stories that helped us form our current "expert" opinion. If we share them, the readers may see why what we're saying is relevant and ultimately, accurate. Plus, such content will make the guide more entertaining and thus more likely to be read. Possible format of sticky: Intro: Covers purpose; abstract. Expert Analysis/Opinion: Expert Name Technical Stuff: blah Personal Stuff: blah Resources: linky-things Expert Name......etc. Conclusion: Broad Summary Endorsement of all Involved. That works for me. I like keeping personal testimonial in it. I did not intend this to be a guide on SP. The general intent is to show beginners that many experienced LDers discourage them from wasting time on a subject that does not work, and is confusing. Let's keep it a simple clarification thread. The intro links to an article they can read if they want details about the sleep disorder, and we are just trying to get everyone to stop using the term to mean other things. Also, spread awareness to beginers that they need not spend time worrying about SP. I like the format you suggest. Each person should feel free to say what they think will get the point across "I WILD and know SP is a big mis-understanding, forget about it" Any technical info or specific LD related thing you want to say would be fine and make it interesting, but lets not aim for a tutorial.

[xpin2winx]

for the people who say they get sleep paralysis. Do you experience full body paralysis first then vibrations/hypnagogics/auditory hallucinations? Or vice versa? I have experienced the vibrations/hypnagogics/sounds dozens of times but never ever was paralyzed and never even felt patalyzed/ I know not everyone is the same but could people be mistaking paralysis because they feel like they are falling which makes them feel glued to their bed? I keep getting scared at the vibrations and hallucination part of WILD. Today, i saw clouds forming and just starting visualizing clouds. Sure enough they were getting more vivid and vivid. I was afraid i was gonna end up plummeting to my death in my dream and did not want to experience that. So i opened my eyes instead.

[cmind]

for the people who say they get sleep paralysis. Do you experience full body paralysis first then vibrations/hypnagogics/auditory hallucinations? Or vice versa? I have experienced the vibrations/hypnagogics/sounds dozens of times but never ever was paralyzed and never even felt patalyzed/ I know not everyone is the same but could people be mistaking paralysis because they feel like they are falling which makes them feel glued to their bed? I keep getting scared at the vibrations and hallucination part of WILD. Today, i saw clouds forming and just starting visualizing clouds. Sure enough they were getting more vivid and vivid. I was afraid i was gonna end up plummeting to my death in my dream and did not want to experience that. So i opened my eyes instead. The point we're trying to make is that sleep paralysis is not a part of WILD or hypnagogia at all. Anyone who does experience SP has a sleep disorder that apparently affects only 1 in 250 people. By the way, awesome WILD attempt. Next time try plummeting, it might be fun.

[melanieb]

I like the idea of adding in personal experience in addition to more technical instruction. We all have stories that helped us form our current "expert" opinion. If we share them, the readers may see why what we're saying is relevant and ultimately, accurate. Plus, such content will make the guide more entertaining and thus more likely to be read. Possible format of sticky: Intro: Covers purpose; abstract. Expert Analysis/Opinion: Expert Name Technical Stuff: blah Personal Stuff: blah Resources: linky-things Expert Name......etc. Conclusion: Broad Summary Endorsement of all Involved. This is basically the format I was thinking of. I think it sends a more professional and concise message showing new members that thought has been put into the creation of a truly informative guide.

[gab]

OK, here is my draft contribution. I'm opened to make changes to it. Please, feel free to comment. I have had 36 WILDs and 20 DEILDs and lot more attempts. In 10 months, I have never experienced any full body paralysis (SP) when WILDing. Any sensation you are experiencing during your WILD attempt, is a part of falling asleep process. You can feel vibrations, floating feeling, sounds, acceleration, your body being distorted, heaviness, being relaxed. It happens every time, but we normally don't notice it, because by then we are asleep. Lucid dreamers going for a WILD notice it, because they stay conscious and aware during the falling asleep process. SP is something you either experience or not. Most of the people don't. So waiting for it, or making it a certain point in your attempt that you need to get to, or get past, or experience, is detrimental. If you have not experienced SP so far, while falling asleep normally, then you are quite unlikely to experience it during a WILD attempt. But it makes no difference if you experience SP or not, or if you think you have/have not experienced it. You just go through your WILD attempt, until you enter your dream lucidly.

[Sivason]

That looks awesome Gab! We can use it just like that, or you can adjust it as you see fit. It looks great. Thanks.

[Sivason]

I have rewritten the intro and my contribution. I think I have improved them both, so please take a look at the new versions. Sageous, I am ok with using your post exactly like it is. Three paragraphs was just a rough guideline. You only have 4 so if you want it can go in, as is. Mzzck, we have 3 contributions, so we are half way there. Melanieb and Ophila Blue are not sure they will contribute, until they see what we have all come up with. So I guess your next. When you submit something, then they can decide if they want to be one of the 6 expert opinions.

[Sageous]

Sivason: Thanks for catering to my laziness and time constraints, and for understanding that 4 paragraphs is about as short as I go (the rewrite, were there one, likely would have been longer); go ahead and use what I got. Besides, if you squint really hard it kinda sorta fits the template Mzzkc offered, so maybe it is all set. Looking forward to seeing and promoting the finished product!

[Mzzkc]

Could we maybe get a personal testimony from hermine_hesse and anyone else who has been diagnosed with sleep paralysis? A few first hand accounts like that would greatly improve the guide. What's more, I think we should really be collaborating in a shared Google doc so we can track changes, allow commenting, and edit as a group. If you PM me your Google account name (the one you use for youtube, gmail, g+, docs, etc.), I'll set one up with the basic formatting and add you all as contributors/owners. It will also be open to the public for viewing (not editing). P.S. Don't worry about the bbcode, if you aren't fluent; just format in Rich Text and I'll fix things up for easy copy-pasta as things progress. P.S.S. This thread should still be used for idea generation and what have you, but having the doc will protect us from losing progress due to potential DV server issues.

[melanieb]

We have DV server issues?