Sleep Paralysis Demystified

**Sivason** · 09-24-2012 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Gab:

There's already a term for that phase: NREM sleep. If you want to explain the awareness part, you can do so conversationally without the need for another acronym.

Example:

Newcomer: Some weird stuff happened to me last night as I was trying to WILD. There were swirling lights and at one point it felt like I was tripping. What's up with that?

DG/Knowledgeable Member:

Seems like you were passing through NREM sleep; it's nothing to worry about, and it shows you were well on your way to a successful transition! Just keep practicing that awareness as you drift to sleep and you'll be set. =)

The conversational approach removes all reference to paralysis or any association with previous terms (ie SP). Plus it feels more personable and less clinical dropping unnecessary acronyms.

sivason:

I like the idea of a sticky, and wouldn't mind contributing no matter what direction you decide to take it.

Sageous:

My thoughts exactly. Haven't had the time/energy to bring them up. Glad you're on top of things. ^.^

Your example sounds good. It is true that conversational teaching may be better received. I think the theme of a sticky thread would not be some thing like SA as a term, but each of us getting to put our offical stance in writing were it will be seen, and leave it up to each of us how we want to make our point. Then we could each provide any links that we wish. For example, I may or may not do a seperate thread about the idea of SA as a tool in WILD and just provide a link, as it is a related thread that I would feel could be helpful. I would encourage Mzzkc to provide a link to this thread and Sageous to an applicable WILD lesson.

My own thing with the idea of wanting to keep the premis of watching for the bodily state that SP is often used to describe, is just a matter of personal method. I get the feeling I was taught to WILD in a slightly different school of thought than either Mzzkc or Sageous, but there must be as many ways to approach it as their are people who can pull it off. It is good, for a few experts to have learned their methods from different sources; it provides the community with options and many varying but each valid opinions when they ask questions. People get a totally differant take on things from me and Sageous, because we both did our first decade or two of training, in a world that had no internet, so who knows where the knowledge each of us learned came from, but each of us learned from seperate sources. I assume, like me, sageous had to do the bulk of discovery for himself, creating a truely singular personalized skill set. I actually had always used the term Dream Trance prior to finding this web sight. I had never heard it called WILD.
But, getting a chance for each of us to express it in their own way is what I would like to aim for. We would each stick to the central theme, of do not think about SP, it is a confusing and useless misunderstanding, here is what I (Mzzyk, Sageous, Gab, sivason, who ever) want to make clear on the subject.

**gab** · 09-24-2012 04:39 AM

Not sure what you guys gonna say, but how about all experts cooperate on a brand-spanking new WILD tut, endorsed by everybody who cares about the issue and agrees. And that would be the sticky.

Something basic and straight forward. Detailed enough to make it usefull, but without explaining all the NREMs and REMs.

And of course, there can be links to other WILD tutorials and classes for more in-depth explanations.

So one person would write the draft. And everybody would be able to add something what they noticed the biggest issues are when explaining WILDing to a newbie.

**Mzzkc** · 09-24-2012 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by gab

Not sure what you guys gonna say, but how about all experts cooperate on a brand-spanking new WILD tut, endorsed by everybody who cares about the issue and agrees. And that would be the sticky.

Something basic and straight forward. Detailed enough to make it usefull, but without explaining all the NREMs and REMs.

And of course, there can be links to other WILD tutorials and classes for more in-depth explanations.

So one person would write the draft. And everybody would be able to add something what they noticed the biggest issues are when explaining WILDing to a newbie.

I prefer sivason's idea, as it more directly addresses the current issue.

The new "official tutorial" is already a much better starting point than previous incarnations; I don't see a need to rehash things that have already been covered extensively.

My involvement with the LDing community is also pretty minimal right now, and most of my LDing projects are on the backburner, so I don't think I could contribute much more than an independently written paragraph or three. A more involved collaboration would be...difficult.

**Sivason** · 09-24-2012 07:58 AM

I also see a small problem that would block an offical tutorial. That is each of us have our own valid methods, and just with the three of us (Mzzck, Sageous, me) I see 3 highly varied ways of reaching the same end. It is probably good, if somewhat confusing for new members, if we each teach the method and tricks that we have practiced. Each of us have 'ways' we approach this, and it is great that they are not exactly identical.. I read Mzzck's WILD thread, and thought it was great, but I also did not recognize his WILD as exactly the same thing as my WILD. Neither of us are soley correct, we just learned different details and mind sets.
So, anyways, YAY for diverse methods, and lets just address the smaller issue. I would like suggestions for a title. here is one: Sleep Paralysis Confusion Cleared Up: Some Expert Opinions

I just grabbed that out a hat I guess. It has the words Sleep Paralysis first and may attrack all the newbies who search for the term, plus it would be stickied in plain sight.

Ok, let me try to offically start this thing. We can prepare our individual posts in this thread, and then when we each decide on what we want to say, I can combine them all in a new thread and sticky it. I will run the finished product by Ophilia Blue and Matte before it gets stickied.

I am more than fine with anyone just cut and pasting something they have already posted.

So if you are willing Sageous, Gab, Mzzyk, and Sivason should each submit a post here that gets what they think is worth saying said. Lets stay short and sweet, so I like Mzzkc's idea of 1 to 3 pararaphs each.

I would like two more experts to submit a post. If you meet the following criteria, you will count as an expert for this humble thread we are making. You should be either a DVA professor, have been or are DV staff, or can show you have some standing in the community. Let's say, any of these items, have at least 1000 posts with a guide thread you have started that has at least 1000 views, have over 2000 posts or have at least 3 years registered. I am just making that stuff up, so if you think you have something real good to say, but don't meet the criteria, post it anyways, and maybe it will still be used.

**cmind** · 09-24-2012 04:02 PM

^ Does that include me?

**Sageous** · 09-24-2012 05:01 PM

Okay, I'll play. But I might be a bit...

**Sivason** · 09-24-2012 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by cmind

^ Does that include me?

I mentioned that anyone can come up with a post and offer it. If the poster does not meet the criteria, maybe the rest of us will vote on what gets added and does not. So, sure, come up with one to three paragraphs that you feel are to the point and worth saying, and we will take a look at what you come up with. We need to avoid directly critisizing any ones elses work, but if you do not name someone, you can criticize an idea as bad or negetive.

************************************************** *************

UPDATE TO PLAN: I have created a thread for work space for contributors, or potential contributors, here, http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/work-a...4/#post1945022

This is just a curtiousy to avoid cluttering Mzzck's existing thread.

So, if I have asked you to contribute, you meet the criteria and wish to contribute, or you feel you have something good to say despite not meeting the criteria, the linked thread can be used to submit rough drafts, ask questions, or comment on what other people draft up.

************************************************** *******************

Ophilia Blue is on board!!! So we will have 5 so far if Gab wants to contribute. So, if Gab is in, then one more expert should do it.

**melanieb** · 09-25-2012 03:10 PM

I replied to you. I will read and post as necessary, and check for grammar/spelling plus unusual metaphors.

**gab** · 09-25-2012 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by sivason

So, if Gab is in, then one more expert should do it.

Thank you, sivason, I will read the thread of course and may comment, but I'll let you guys work this out.

**Sivason** · 09-25-2012 08:49 PM

Gab and Melanieb and Ophilia Blue, Thanks. I will put together an intro and my own post. I think each person can say as littlle as there own version of this, "SP has never been a part of WILDing for me. I plan to stop using the term when talking about WILD. It only confuse the subject. Please spend your time learning other skills, and do not waste time worrying about SP" Or you could say more, if you had a point to share. Just having six staff members or expert opinions warning that newbies should not even be thinking about SP unless they already suffer from it, is mostly what I am going for. If Melanieb or Ophilia Blue do have personal experience using SP, then feel free to mention anything that you feel will be useful in decreasing confusion. I do not want any of you to make statements you disagree with.

Myzzck, You could just provide a shortened version of your OP, maybe even leave out explaining anything in detail, but expressing your main point.

Sageous, You could provide a paragraph, much like the one a few posts above, just expressing that all the HI stuff, may be experienced, but should never be saught for,,, something cleverly word by you to convey your message on that.

**Sageous** · 09-25-2012 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by sivason

Sageous, You could provide a paragraph, much like the one a few posts above, just expressing that all the HI stuff, may be experienced, but should never be saught for,,, something cleverly word by you to convey your message on that.

Not sure about clever, but I'll try to have something on your new thread shortly.

Glad you're making this effort, Sivason!

**frost458** · 09-25-2012 10:24 PM

As the REM stage begins,[...] and you end up with full-body paralysis

except full-body paralysis occurs during NREM sleep

This is somewhat confusing....first you say it's during REM sleep then NREM.

**Mzzkc** · 09-26-2012 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by frost458

This is somewhat confusing....first you say it's during REM sleep then NREM.

No, I do not.

Your quote is out of context.

Full quote:

Originally Posted by me

Notice every sensation (HH, vibrations, sensory deprivation, etc.) except full-body paralysis occurs during NREM sleep.

Full quote with parens removed:

Originally Posted by me

Notice every sensation except full-body paralysis occurs during NREM sleep.

Full quote with clarified clauses:

Originally Posted by me

Notice every sensation, except full-body paralysis, occurs during NREM sleep.

Full quote with alternative exemption:

Originally Posted by me

Notice every sensation, save full-body paralysis, occurs during NREM sleep.

I concede that it could use some editing for the sake of clarity.

I used bold typeface to compensate for lack of editing time. Seems it was ineffective.

**frost458** · 09-26-2012 11:33 PM

If I understand right what he meant was : full body paralysis does not occurs during NREM.
Am I right?

Well I disagree.
I get Full body paralysis both in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).

**Sivason** · 09-27-2012 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by frost458

If I understand right what he meant was : full body paralysis does not occurs during NREM.
Am I right?

Well I disagree.
I get Full body paralysis both in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).

I imagine all sorts of sleep disorders exist and full paralysis could be experienced at any stage of sleep. That does not change the issue of only a small number of people having the condition. Any tutorials using actual full body paralysis are useless to the vast majority of people.

Think about this. SP is a rare enough disorder, as is color blindness. If a puzzle book was designed for color blind people only, then it would be of no use the vast majority of people. The same is true for a WILD method that requires you have a serious sleep disorder. A color blind person may enjoy the puzzle book, and some one, like you may benifit from SP based tutorials. Most new members will not.

**cmind** · 09-27-2012 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by frost458

Well I disagree.
I get Full body paralysis both in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).

Sorry bub, but if you have a choice, it's not paralysis by definition. That's called "choosing not to move".

**Zoth** · 09-27-2012 02:49 AM

I've had my head in other projects lately, but once I get the time I'll catch up on the reading on the topic, great initiative from you sivason

**frost458** · 09-27-2012 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by cmind

Sorry bub, but if you have a choice, it's not paralysis by definition. That's called "choosing not to move".

Not really no, if it was choosing not to move it would imply that I could move whenever I want to.

According to wikipedia :

Physiologically, sleep paralysis is closely related to REM atonia, the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. Sleep paralysis occurs either when falling asleep, or when awakening. When it occurs upon falling asleep, the person remains aware while the body shuts down for REM sleep, and it is called hypnagogic or predormital sleep paralysis. When it occurs upon awakening, the person becomes aware before the REM cycle is complete, and it is called hypnopompic or postdormital.[10] The paralysis can last from several seconds to several minutes

And can also be found in this medical study :
http://tinyurl.com/cf9d7fu

By any chance, does anybody has access to the full text?

**gab** · 09-27-2012 07:33 AM

We are not trying to deny that SP exists and some people experience it, where others don't. Or to nitpick when exactly does it occur. The issue here is, that for the sake of WILDing, you don't need to wait for SP, experience it or get past it in order to successfully achieve WILD.

If you experience SP, that's fine, if you don't, that's fine too. Either way, you are able to achieve WILD. People who do experience SP, they already know about it. But when people who don't experience it are told that the road to WILD leads through SP, they will wait for it and often cancel their attempt, because they think they are doing something wrong.

**frost458** · 09-27-2012 07:48 AM

Oh I see my bad, might be because I'm not a native english speaker and I tend to "fly-over" some words when reading.
someone told me "SP while trying to fall asleep is called NREM"

But NREM is what people experience before hypnagogic sleep paralysis when trying to WILD. and if successful will never reach HSP.

**gab** · 09-27-2012 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by frost458

Oh I see my bad, might be because I'm not a native english speaker and I tend to "fly-over" some words when reading.
someone told me "SP while trying to fall asleep is called NREM"

But NREM is what people experience before hypnagogic sleep paralysis when trying to WILD. and if successful will never reach HSP.

No worries, no harm done

I just don't think, that knowing the name of the event that most of the people don't even experience helps them pull off already quite complicated process of WILDing.

During NREM, you may feel all sorts of sensations, like vibrations, hovering, sounds, but not SP. You get REM atonia, when you actually start to dream. But that doesn't mean, you are completely paralyzed, just harder to move.

**Mzzkc** · 09-27-2012 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by frost458

If I understand right what he meant was : full body paralysis does not occurs during NREM.
Am I right?

Correct.

Sleep paralysis is not at all likely to occur during N1, N2, and N3 sleep--unless you have an even rarer disorder than sleep paralysis itself.

You know what...no.

I'm not rehashing everything that's been said here...again. Read through this entirety of this thread or wait for the sticky addressing this topic.

Originally Posted by frost458

Well I disagree.
I get Full body paralysis both in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).

Your logic is bad, and you should feel bad.

Come back with EEG readings and a detailed subjective timeline that supports your "opinion" and I'll consider it more seriously.

Originally Posted by frost458

Oh I see my bad, might be because I'm not a native english speaker and I tend to "fly-over" some words when reading.
someone told me "SP while trying to fall asleep is called NREM"

NREM is NREM.

Sleep paralysis is sleep paralysis.

SP is an acronym used by the LDing community that is completely ambiguous and often lumps NREM, sleep paralysis, REM, and other nonsense together in a random order.

Originally Posted by frost458

But NREM is what people experience before hypnagogic sleep paralysis when trying to WILD. and if successful will never reach HSP.

WTF is HSP?

Google reveals no relevant results. Nor does Wikipedia.

**Sageous** · 09-28-2012 01:49 AM

^^ Could HSP be "Hypnagogic Sleep Paralysis," per Frost's post and bolds?

Of course, I have no idea what that even means. Care to elaborate, Frost?

**Sivason** · 09-29-2012 03:25 AM

I am now taking any testamonials from any one interested in contirbuting to a thread, the one mentioned above. Follow this link, http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/work-a...24/index2.html

For this part of the thread you do not need to be an expert at WILD. I want to consider two types of testimonials. State first (on that thread) if you are experienced with WILD, or suffer from true sleep paralysis. Then read the way we have each set up our response, and contribute something for consideration. So experienced in WILD with an opinion on the issue (see above posts), or anyone who can describe first hand info about true medical SP.

Originally Posted by sivason

Thanks for your help so far everyone. I will be putting the thread together Tuesday morning. I need to complete it and move on before I become less interested. I want to keep it simple.

I have 4 testimonials so far. If you (anyone with lots of experience in WILD) post a potential contribution on this thread, it may be included in the final product, tuesday. I will leave it unstickied for a few days, to let the other staff members decide if it would be good as a sticky.

**Sageous** · 09-29-2012 05:15 PM

^^ You might want to doublecheck that link, Sivason; on my machine it took me to a "Sorry, no matches" prompt. It could be me, but I figured I'd mention it.