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    Thread: Semi-Lucid? - The Levels of Lucidity

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      learning. making. doing. zhineTech's Avatar
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      Semi-Lucid? - The Levels of Lucidity

      I see lots of posts on here about being "semi-lucid" or being aware you are in a dream, but not really "being aware" or having control. I have used this to answer a few peoples questions here and there. So I decided to post this collection of info I have gathered about the various levels of lucidity.

      in my experience there are various levels of lucidity. it can get a bit confusing sometimes, especially if you are having a dream about having a lucid dream. this fellow Reece Jones (who I believe is registered here but does not seem to be an active member) has done some videos on it and broken it down into reasonable subdivisions. i tend to agree with his synopsis for the most part, though the major and minor layers kind of complicate things. I have copied and pasted his breakdown below.

      check out these videos:
      The 5 Layers of a Lucid Dream (1/5)

      Also, there is an excellent thread by Arby about it here, with a similar but slightly different breakdown.
      http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/levels-lucidity-36173/

      A Brief Summary

      Layer Zero (Minor):
      Engaging in lucid dream discussion without becoming lucid.
      Seeing lucid dreaming related material without becoming lucid.
      Thinking about lucid dreaming related material without becoming lucid.
      One or all of these criteria can be met for it to classify as Zero (Minor).

      Layer Zero (Major):
      Nothing feels quite real within the dream, yet you never become fully lucid.
      You get the sense that theres no consequences or repercussions, yet you never become fully lucid.
      You get the sense that you can reset or stop the experience entirely, yet you never become fully lucid.
      One or all of these criteria can be met for it to classify as Zero (Major).

      Layer One (Minor):
      You become lucid and then startle yourself back to waking life within seconds.
      You're in a nightmare of sorts, you realise you're dreaming and choose to wake yourself up.
      One or both of these criteria can be met for it to classify as One (Minor).

      Layer One (Major):
      You become lucid and within seconds you have a false awakening and carry on non lucid.
      You become lucid and within seconds you fade to the black (not fully awake) and eventually re-enter non lucid.
      One or both of these criteria can be met for it to classify as One (Major).

      Layer Two (Minor):
      You'll realise you're dreaming, although you won't fully understand the implications of what dreaming really is. The dream will be fairly unstable (flickering scenery, blurry textures, etc). You'll not have full control over your actions and at points it may feel like you're watching a movie. Dream characters are not aware that they're merely dream characters. You also still feel as if the dream characters are real people.

      You realise that you're dreaming, but don't care enough to try and take control.

      Layer Two (Major):
      You'll realise you're dreaming, although you won't fully understand the implications of what dreaming really is. The dream will be fairly unstable (flickering scenery, blurry textures, etc). You'll not have full control over your actions and at points it may feel like you're watching a movie. You still feel as if the dream characters are real people. Although, ironically, they seem to realise that they're just dream characters. They seem to have more awareness than you!

      A dream character informs you that you were dreaming earlier on in the dream. You believe this, but don't think to check if you're still dreaming now.

      Layer Three (Minor):
      You'll realise you're dreaming and fully understand the implications of what dreaming really is. The dream will be stable and vivid. However, you'll not have full control over your actions and at points it may feel like you're watching a movie. You understand that the dream characters are merely a facet of your imagination, although they still believe that they're real.

      When you become lucid, you understand the full implications, but youre not in total control. Because youre watching it unfold without any real influence over it, you become so immersed in the dream you lose lucidity. Later on you regain lucidity and remember how earlier on in the dream you were also lucid.

      Layer Three (Major):
      You'll realise you're dreaming and fully understand the implications of what dreaming really is. The dream will be stable and vivid. However, you'll not have full control over your actions and at points it may feel like you're watching a movie. You understand that the dream characters are merely a facet of your imagination, and they also understand this.

      You realise that youre dreaming and understand the full implications, but consciously make the decision to not interfere and instead, you let it run its course. So, it may be like watching a movie again. But youve chosen for it to be that way.

      Layer Four (Minor):
      You realise that youre dreaming, and the full implications of what dreaming really is will sink in. The dream will also be very stable and vivid. You will also have full control over your actions. However, dream characters will not be aware that it is a dream.

      Layer Four (Major):
      Full control. Unity. All dream characters aware. Stable and vivid. From here its easier to enter OBEs.
      Back into lucidity since 4.10

      My intro thread | Levels of Lucidity

      "...and then this mean kid came to the door and started shooting at me with a fudgecicle..."

    2. #2
      Member werewolf's Avatar
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      thats pretty cool

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      Member hprib012's Avatar
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      Very nice descriptions of the levels.

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      nice!

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      Member Boomslang's Avatar
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      That's one of the best classification schemes I've seen for lucidity. The gradations we currently have just aren't enough; something more precise, like this, is very much called for in future lucid discussion.

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      Member Reclypso's Avatar
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      I will use this for future reference thanks.

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      Member skiiddo's Avatar
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      Mmmmkay, I'm going to go and say, based on the evidence, that the dream I'm not sure about is like... layer zero (major)

    8. #8
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      I discovered these vids a few months ago, and I have to say they're fantastic, thanks for summarising them as I've been too lazy to and the only other way to get your head round them is to watch the vids repeatedly

      I thinks this video series should receive more publicity on this site as they may help a lot of people with their perception of what 'lucidity' in dreams really is.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
      Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA
      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


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      I don't believe there are levels of lucidity. You are lucid or not, and quality depends on techniques performed the moment after becoming counscious. For example, you end up in your room and you barely understand that you are dreaming, your vision is blurry, so you touch everything around, rub your hands, look at something from a very close distance and your lucid becomes "high level".

      Although, there are cases where you don't fully understand that you are dreaming, and your awareness level is too low to become lucid.
      mrdeano likes this.
      My opinion:
      *Lucid Dreams, OBEs, Astral Projections are one and the same.
      *There are no levels of lucidity. Quality changes if you apply some deepening.
      *Lucid Dreams do not last more than 20 minutes.
      *Wolves are beautiful.
      DEILD + WBTB tutorial:
      http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/purebr...ularly-127873/

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      Member Robot_Butler's Avatar
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      These could be used as a tool to easily describe and discuss lucid dreams, but I don't think they will always be accurate. Dreams are a volatile mess of confusion, lucidity, emotion, distraction, and surprises. They are prone to change at any second. I do not think there is anything specific to a particular dream that would limit the level of possible lucidity. I also disagree that it is easier to transition to an OBE when you are more lucid. I think dream control, including inducing an OBE is often easier when you have lower levels of lucidity.
      Darkmatters and zhineTech like this.

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      I agree that these videos could be used as a tool, think of all the threads that are made called 'Became lucid but followed dream plot', 'was I lucid?', 'lucid but didn't remember my waking body', etc. that could be easily clarified with these videos.

      Also, all of the lucids I've had so far I've been able to categorise with these 'layers', I also believe that Reece discusses that these layers are volatile and given to change within a single dream, (in fact I think there is a layer characterised by slipping in and out of lucidity), he also stated a disclaimer that it's not a definitive collection, I don't think anyone could compile a complete list
      zhineTech likes this.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
      Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA
      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    12. #12
      learning. making. doing. zhineTech's Avatar
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      first off, let me say i agree wholeheartedly with the above two posts.

      Quote Originally Posted by Purebred View Post
      I don't believe there are levels of lucidity. You are lucid or not, and quality depends on techniques performed the moment after becoming counscious. For example, you end up in your room and you barely understand that you are dreaming, your vision is blurry, so you touch everything around, rub your hands, look at something from a very close distance and your lucid becomes "high level".

      Although, there are cases where you don't fully understand that you are dreaming, and your awareness level is too low to become lucid.
      disagree. sort of. stabilizing techniques definitely change the overall quality of the dream, so we agree that this is a definite range? then we are merely discussing this range. yes, i was lucid and no i was not is too black and white. lucidity is awareness of the dream and clarity of consciousness. there are most definitely levels of awareness. the fact that there is a layer zero where a lot of dream content is about lucidity yet you dont become lucid is helpful in discussion and seeing where one is on the path.

      but really, one shouldnt take all this too seriously. as mentioned above it is very fluid and "levels of lucidity" are certainly pretty subjective.

      however, i would like to propose the possibility of a simple system that is something like LD0 (non lucid but w/ lucid content) - LD10 (ultra supreme clarity and awareness)

      these numbers don't entirely coincide with the reece jones layers, but they dont really need to. 1-10 is a pretty universally recognizable scale, right?

      i mean i know i can give a lot of my LDs overall scores, even if i go non-lucid or have fuzzy moments, you can kind of tally it up or make a note of your current level. i certainly dont want to start any kind of banal LD pi$$ing contest (MY LD10 PWNS YOUR LD0 NEWB!) though.

      just putting that out there...
      Last edited by zhineTech; 06-25-2011 at 01:55 AM.
      Back into lucidity since 4.10

      My intro thread | Levels of Lucidity

      "...and then this mean kid came to the door and started shooting at me with a fudgecicle..."

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      You make too big deal of all of this. There are some things that I believe in, but others don't.

      For example, OBE and LD are one and the same, it's just a different method of entering "that world". OBE is via exiting your body and LD is via becoming cousncious in your dream.

      And another one is that "another world" cannot be divided in some kind of states like the ones mentioned above.

      Ofcourse you disagree with me, but there have never been an argument which would prove differently. And if you just read other threads and rewright them, I am not interested, because only your own experiences can bring knowledge.
      My opinion:
      *Lucid Dreams, OBEs, Astral Projections are one and the same.
      *There are no levels of lucidity. Quality changes if you apply some deepening.
      *Lucid Dreams do not last more than 20 minutes.
      *Wolves are beautiful.
      DEILD + WBTB tutorial:
      http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/purebr...ularly-127873/

    14. #14
      learning. making. doing. zhineTech's Avatar
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      i said not to take it too seriously. this apparently this jives with most peoples experiences as well. myself included.

      i do agree w/ your OBE / LD breakdown, i just think they have slightly separate laws / feelings due to the entrance method.

      i personally happen to think that bringing relevant information to light from any source is useful, especially given the high number of questions regarding this currently on the forum.
      Back into lucidity since 4.10

      My intro thread | Levels of Lucidity

      "...and then this mean kid came to the door and started shooting at me with a fudgecicle..."

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      Quote Originally Posted by Purebred View Post
      I don't believe there are levels of lucidity. You are lucid or not..
      Completely agree.. all this over-classification is b.s. imo.

      Quote Originally Posted by Purebred View Post
      You make too big deal of all of this.
      Exactly. My favourite has to be the Mod who posted "You do not have to be lucid throughout the entire dream for it to be a lucid dream."

      Which explains a lot about this place.

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      learning. making. doing. zhineTech's Avatar
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      ^^^haters gonna hate i guess. if you guys have had many lucids i just dont see how you can miss the fact that its not an all or nothing proposition.

      here is an article i found by the dream researcher ed kellog who is mentioned both in stephen laberge's books and in robert waggoners books, which breaks down what he calls the
      The Lucidity Continuum into greater detail.

      E.l.e.c.t.r.i.c D.r.e.a.m.s - Articles

      ABSTRACT: Many researchers define a lucid dream as one in which dreamers realize, however vaguely, that they dream while they dream. However, in dream-life as in waking-life, lucidity ranges across a continuum, and may depend on a number of factors. These include the ability to think clearly, the ability to remember, the power to control the dream, the feeling of embodiment, reality tone or vividness, the emotional content of the dream, and the sense of self of the dreamer. Despite the many factors involved, the experience of lucidity depends most closely on the interaction of two factors that together determine the freedom of choice experienced by the dreamer in the dream. The first corresponds to clarity of thought and perception, and the second with the power to control the dream. By looking at the degree to which a dreamer has made covert assumptions overt, and at the degree to which the dreamer can act on this knowledge, one can evaluate dreams on a scale that runs the gamut from ordinary dreaming to super-lucidity. The author has developed a series of maps of consciousness that illustrate the differences between many different kinds of both lucid and non-lucid dreams.
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      I think the people who disagree are going on the definition that lucidity is simply awareness that you're dreaming (or that "I dream", as Kellogg likes to say... never did quite understand that one! ). It might go down easier for them if they think of it not as levels of lucidity but levels of awareness in the dream. So, you're either lucid or not, but you stil experience varying levels of awareness.

      But do you really thing there are still 6 more levels that can be defined besides the 4 already mentioned? Wow... that;s really pushing it!!

      I haven't experienced even all the ones mentioned myself yet, but I think f you try to break it down even farther you;ll end up with a totally confusing mess. He seems to be trying to break it down along what he feels are natural lines, but you seem to want to arbitrarily make exactly 10 divisions. How do you know that number exist that can be easily defined? Just the 4 levels already mentioned is pushing it a bit I think, especially with his minor and major variations.

    18. #18
      learning. making. doing. zhineTech's Avatar
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      i was just proposing an overall scale, like a percentage, not necessarily one to one levels. just to make discussion easier.

      most everyone is familiar with the ten point scale.
      10 yay!
      5 halfway yay!
      0 boo!

      that kind of thing.
      Back into lucidity since 4.10

      My intro thread | Levels of Lucidity

      "...and then this mean kid came to the door and started shooting at me with a fudgecicle..."

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      I strongly suggest you do not pay attention to this system. Waking up in the morning trying to classify what 'layer' you was on makes the entire process utterly complicated and monotonous. By the very definition of Lucid Dreaming you are either Lucid or not, their are only variations in clarity and control.
      I wish people could just enjoy the experience without having to have everything classified.

      Stop trying to complicate things. Lucid Dreaming is a complicated subject as is.

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      Well I agree that's not the way to use the info.

      But when I remember a lucid dream, I don't have to stop and think about some number chart, I already know if I only dreamed ABOUT lucidity, or if I was only dimly aware, or if I had a high level of lucidity.

      I see nothing wrong with trying to chart out the varying levels... it's merely the scientific method in action. If people didn't take it upon themselves to study and try to categorize things, Laberge would never have written his book. I see this as more somebody trying to create a database from which to further studies, not as a way to complicate keeping a DJ.

      And no, I would hate to see people posting in here always having to say what level lucid they had by number... THAT would suck.

      But I do agree with the last poster that it should not be used the way he said.

    21. #21
      learning. making. doing. zhineTech's Avatar
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      it would only take me a second or two to "score" the "quality" of an LD, but i understand that some people have a hard time or don't like to quantify things. i have no trouble assigning numbers to things because i don't take it too seriously and it helps to quantify things in my mind. i know a 7 is quite a bit more than a 2, but im less sure of the difference between a 3 and a 4 for example. i wouldn't go by a chart / list or waste my time on it other than to add it to the dream title in my DJ, which i could then chart as a level of progress against my goals.

      i feel like a lot of this exchange is a semantic misunderstanding. as darkmatter basically said, if you wish to substitute the word "awareness" for lucidity then do so. but i still feel for many reasons that you guys are looking at "lucidity"as an artificial off or on switch. how many things in life are really that clear cut? life almost always seems to work in gradients and i feel the same is true for the mental state of "lucidity."

      if you look at the definition of lucidity, from Lucidity - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary you get:
      1: clearness of thought or style
      2: a presumed capacity to perceive the truth directly and instantaneously

      we are working with a slope like "clearness" or "capacity." it seems apparent to me that you can be either more or less clear at any one time. for the lucidity community there is a definite transition point from which to define a lucid dream versus a non-lucid dream. but for most people there are most definitely slopes of lucidity / awareness / clearness around this point.

      are you guys that disagree saying that in every lucid dream you have ever had, you have been "either lucid or not," with no in-between levels, no wandering focus, no fuzzy dream logic? you are just as bright and sharp as waking life in every dream? because this does not match my experience and research at all. or are you just saying you are against any kind of "scoring" system?

      again, questions like this comes up quite often on the boards. i feel like this is a good break-down / discussion to answer those questions. i am not proposing some kind of draconian internet rulez of having to discuss your dreams on a scoring system, that would be terrible.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mrdeano View Post
      I strongly suggest you do not pay attention to this system. Waking up in the morning trying to classify what 'layer' ... utterly complicated and monotonous. By the very definition of Lucid Dreaming you are either Lucid or not..

      Stop trying to complicate things. Lucid Dreaming is a complicated subject as is.
      Spot-on. You're either lucid, or not. Anything other than lucidity is a degree of NON-lucidity..

      The quoted hearsay definitions and hearsay info on this site are terrible, imo.
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    23. #23
      learning. making. doing. zhineTech's Avatar
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      facepalm

      i am disappointed by the simplistic reduction you guys are espousing, it's simply not true. the variation is recognized and discussed by some of the biggest researchers and writers in the field, and it jives with all my personal experiences, which is most definitely not 'hearsay.'

      i hope this thread helps some of you with questions and an appreciation for the subtlety of consciousness. for the others, i think my post above covers all the necessary bases, so I'm not going to pop into this thread too much more often, at least until someone gives a meaningful reply to my questions above.
      Back into lucidity since 4.10

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      "...and then this mean kid came to the door and started shooting at me with a fudgecicle..."

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      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Spot-on. You're either lucid, or not. Anything other than lucidity is a degree of NON-lucidity..

      The quoted hearsay definitions and hearsay info on this site are terrible, imo.
      Really, I think some people are missing the point of this thread. It really is a chart to give some people perspective on different levels of lucidity from Zhine's personal experiences. Of course, I would believe that analyzing your level of lucidity every time you wake up would be absolutely absurd. However, this is a great guide for people to gain a perspective on different levels of lucidity.

      And honestly, why can't you guys be more open to new ideas and thoughts?

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      Ok, I've seen a few other recent posts by Oneiro - he obviously has some kind of axe to grind. He seems bitter and in every post he has nasty things to say about DV mods - apparently one of them in particular - and about DV itself. This personal bias disqualifies him from any meaningful commentary.

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