lucidity to do what?

[Hummer]

I see, naturally, a great deal of attention being paid here to the question of lucidity but very little, that I can see, attention paid to what you are going to do with it if you achieve it. If you achieve it that doesn't mean, in my estimation, that you can pay no attention to the "meaning" of things in your dreams -- the really hard work of dreaming. You, may, for instance, desire to "fly" if you achieve lucidity, but that may well mean you are "flying away from something" that is too difficult to deal with, "lucid" or not. In the rush to lucidity I see a general flight away from the meaning of the dream, and perhaps, the matter of conscience in dreams, certainly the matter of pain. Just because you are lucid, as in the largely evil movie Inception, does not mean you can shoot somebody. "Lucidity" does not disassemble the laws of individual human conscience. If you stab yourself in a "lucid" dream and feel nothing immediately afterward does not mean that you won't at another time in your life. My point being there is an emphasis here on "lucidity" as a thing in itself, like a computer with more power than somebody else's but little attention being given to what this power is for, the much more important question. I have been "lucid" in the dream state for up to two hours at a time but always with a purpose, a reason arranged around increasing human control in the unconscious, fighting those forces that desire us to sleep, etc. I would like to see more attention given to the reasons for achieving "lucidity" and less on the "muscle tone" it gives my "avatar" as a dreamer. Hummer

[Tygar]

Personally I don't feel I must have a deep spiritual, intellectual or emotional reason for my pursuit of lucid dreaming. I find joy in the pursuit of, as well as the success of the achievement of finding myself in a lucid dream. This is a hobby for me. A hobby with many rewards and opportunities for self improvement. Four days ago I had a lucid dream where I witnessed the most beautiful sunset I have ever seen in my entire life. Then I swam in the ocean. I recorded this dream in my dream journal and can go back and read it, and recapture a bit of that joy each time. Isn't simply adding joy to ones life enough of a reason for achieving lucidity?

[Plashanko]

People don't just use lucidity for purely reasons of evil. People don't strive to be able to shoot someone in their dreams just because it feels real. People lucid dream because they want to become one with themselves. They want to be able to see how their thoughts and conscience work with their own eyes. To be able to "live" their dreams within themselves. It's really the only true opportunity of "living in the moment."

[Fuzzman]

Why do people watch movies, read books, play games? They're all forms of entertainment and vicarious experience, except in dreams you can make it YOUR experience. It's up to you what you do with your lucid dreams but I feel like many people do it for reasons that will better their lives in the waking world, not just for evil purposes or for mindless fun. Also I don't believe in dreams having some deep hidden meaning amid the symbols, I just think of it as random neurons in your brain firing and your brain trying to make sense of it in the best way it can, so I don't see anything wrong in choosing which of my neurons fire so that I can have a wonderful experience and improve my life since I'm going to be spending that time catatonic anyway. They may sometimes have a personal meaning to yourself alone but I don't think of "flying" as always meaning flying away from something in every instance.

[Laurelindo]

Who says that we believe supernatural dream experiences would work in waking life? You would have to suffer from schizophrenia or something if you are going to get that much problem differentiating between waking life and dreaming. Lucid dreams are fantastic states of consciousness, and they can greatly improve your life in infinite different ways.

[Hummer]

Tygar-- Depends. Depends upon what sunset that might be. Wonderful old science fiction story called "That Vintage Season" about folks from the future who return to witness an asteroid hit on the earth in the past as a kind of tourism. Beautiful sunsets. Is your lucid dreaming like that? How do you know? Hummer Hi Plashanko Thanks for the reply. I am responding to questions I saw on the "Lucidity Thread" here. One person wondered whether, if he stabbed himself in the thigh it would hurt? Other wondered if it matters whether you kill someone or not? Over on the General Dreaming thread a person tears out her eyes in a dream and wonders if that's okay? And why she is mutilating herself like that? Another wonders what to do if a dream figure tells her her fiance is going to die at such and such a date. I see very profound questions about dreaming, actions in dreaming, the power of other figures in dreaming the general lucidity thread here is NOT answering. That is what my question concerns. Of course people do not use lucidity for pure evil -- but I ask you, would you like to have an "inception" as imagined in Inception performed on you? Would you know it if it happened? as it maybe already happened with Genesis? If it has what do we do about it? Are lucid dreamers going to those places to recover our lost being? Hummer Fuzzman-- It is an improvement to dream lucidly...maybe. Even in The Matrix there's a "down" the rabbit hole of Anderson's "lucid dream" of a life as a programmer or whatever he is. Oh, he's entirely "happy" being that "lucid dreamer" in his dream of a life until one day Morpheus comes along and says, hey, Fuzzman, there's this red pill that will show you the world beneath all this "flying" and, sorry to say, it hurts, but it's real and the life you are leading, "lucid" or not is false. "Also I don't believe in dreams having some deep hidden meaning amid the symbols"...you say. What you are saying here is you don't believe there's a "down the rabbit hole," there's a "desert of the real," where you sit in an armchair and see the enslavement of most of the planet. Instead, its all your "wonderful experience" am I correct? "Flying?" You don't have to fly. Symbolism is the gruel of the real which a dreamer is raised on post the red pill. Hummer laurelindo-- Not sure what you are saying, or asking. Schizophrenia, in my estimation...nevermind, it is not worth trying to discuss this. Who says that "supernatural" experiences would work in waking life? Might I point out Christopher Nolan? He believes that if you KILL someone in a dream that only means that person "wakes" somewhere else. I have a vast store of experience that this is NOT true. Do you wish me to describe some of it? Is that what you mean? I see multiple references here on the lucidity threads to people asking questions about this -- can I stab myself? does it matter if I tear out my eyes? Is pain in dreams real? how about if I kill someone? etc. All I was attempting to say is that "lucidity" does not cancel the laws of human conscience and if you have a questions about how to proceed in a dream -- will shooting someone hurt them if I do it while lucid? -- then obey your conscience until you've done the tough work to understand who you are shooting and why. Hummer

[MisakaMikoto]

What people do in lucid dreams is their own choice There's no rules nor consequences Most of my lucid dreams ended with quite perverted results That didn't made me do same in real world It's same as games, movies and books If your dream would turn you into serial killer Why wouldn't also G.T.A. series also make you him?

[Laurelindo]

laurelindo-- Not sure what you are saying, or asking. Schizophrenia, in my estimation...nevermind, it is not worth trying to discuss this. Who says that "supernatural" experiences would work in waking life? Might I point out Christopher Nolan? He believes that if you KILL someone in a dream that only means that person "wakes" somewhere else. I have a vast store of experience that this is NOT true. Do you wish me to describe some of it? Is that what you mean? I am talking about this part of your original post: Just because you are lucid, as in the largely evil movie Inception, does not mean you can shoot somebody. "Lucidity" does not disassemble the laws of individual human conscience. If you stab yourself in a "lucid" dream and feel nothing immediately afterward does not mean that you won't at another time in your life. You seem to imply that you believe some lucid dreamers will confuse lucid dreaming with waking life so much that they will start believing that they can stab themselves without feling pain in waking life, just because they can do so in a lucid dream. That's why I brought up schizophrenia by the way, because schizophrenic people are very disconnected with reality and can probably confuse waking life and lucid dreaming very easily because of that. But anyone who has no serious mental illness shouldn't have any serious problems telling the difference between waking life and dreaming, and nobody with common sense would try something dangerous or crazy until they were absolutely sure that it was a dream.

[Hummer]

MisakaMikoto-- There are no rules or consequences, Misaka, if you assume your lucid dreaming is not connected to the "real world," which, apparently, you don't, which is my point. Dreaming, lucid of not is connected to the real world. By human conscience at least. Why would you assume otherwise? Who teaches you it isn't -- games? Hummer laurelindo-- So you would try something dangerous or crazy in a dream because someone, don't know who, has convinced you that if you do something dangerous or crazy in a "lucid dream" it has no consequences -- who? Who has convinced you of that? Who has convinced you that dreaming, lucid of not, is not connected to real life? The examples I site, about a person wondering if stabbing himself in a lucid dream will cause pain or not, come from posts to this web site. Yes, he or she can do so, and maybe there won't be immediate pain but maybe there was terrific, crippling pain...ten years ago, or will be a few years in the future. The human conscience is a lucid power, I don't know how to overstate that. It prevents the misuse of dreaming by others who do not respect that power. Hummer

[RamblingRambler]

Interesting. A lot of questions bouncing around here, but the main question I'm getting is "How much importance should we place on the decisions we make in lucid dreams?" Although I believe in a huge untapped subconscious I don't believe in Freud's "repressed urges" and Jung's "primal archetypes" interpretations of that subconscious. I really see dreams as the unveiling of all the memories, emotions, images, thoughts that have been shoved into storage by our minds. That being said, I don't believe that lucidity "interrupts" what a dream is trying to tell us, and so in that sense, lucidity isn't harmful. In fact, we can make much better sense of our subconscious through lucid interaction with it rather than passive interaction. I think the greatest and maybe the only moral offense we can commit in lucid dreaming is squandering the opportunity to learn. If we choose to spend every lucid banging the nearest dream character or eating a really awesome pizza, we're missing out on infinite possibilities to learn and appreciate our own minds. That's why you have to come into lucid dreams with written dream goals; otherwise, you side-track.

[Fuzzman]

Who has convinced you that dreaming, lucid of not, is not connected to real life? The examples I site, about a person wondering if stabbing himself in a lucid dream will cause pain or not, come from posts to this web site. Yes, he or she can do so, and maybe there won't be immediate pain but maybe there was terrific, crippling pain...ten years ago, or will be a few years in the future. The human conscience is a lucid power, I don't know how to overstate that. It prevents the misuse of dreaming by others who do not respect that power. What I don't understand is why you are assuming that dreams are connected to the real world when there's no evidence to support that claim. How can doing something in our dreams affect the past or future? From everything I've learned about how the brain performs during dreams as we understand it so far, it's just random activity accessing our memories and behaviors and transposing it into some way that can make sense to us. It's all subjective to the dreamer depending on their lifestyle and how their brain is wired, and it all happens within the brain. How could it have any affect on the outside world, and even if it did wouldn't we know that by now? The only way I could see it affecting someone else is in the instance of shared dreaming (which I'm still skeptical about) where two consciousnesses are linked in a dream together, but that still won't have any affect on the real world. Do you have any sources for your claims or reasoning behind why you believe otherwise?

[Sensei]

Hmmm... You are pointing something out that is impossible to prove, but all the evidence points to the fact that things that happen in your dreams don't have an effect on anything except your mind. I however do feel pain in a dream, and I have been shot, stabbed, burned, and broken countless bones.

[Hummer]

Rambling Rambler I like your response. Thanks. I was primarily addressing a couple of posts I saw at this site. One involved self-mutilation. This "content" could be avoided by deciding in a "lucid" manner to, say, avoid it by flying up from it. Going for the "fake steak" as it were. The "purpose" of dreaming, if it has one, is not necessarily always to feel better, have an easier life. Dreaming can also make things harder, involve repressed or censored pain, kinds of work. There are instances where the "meaning," the lamp, the boon, etc., is hidden, screened by pain. To go "towards" that can be hard, a red pill choice. Yes, to make that choice conscious helps. Hummer Fuzzman-- I can site all sorts of examples where, for instance, dreams provided the source for scientific, artistic, mathematical and other discoveries, advances, so, yes, they are connected in that fashion. If you would like me to I can post a list I have of such things. But, here is a simple example from yesterday, for instance. Last dream, "lucid" actually, I was driving in the left lane of a four lane road, meaning I was in the left lane on my side of a four lane road approaching a stop light that was green. I was not paying particularly close attention to the road, driving, but thinking about what writing work I would be doing during the day. Suddenly, my wife, who was sitting beside me to my right warned me, "Hummer, there's a motorcycle in front of you!" Sure enough, 50 feet in front of me was a big, red Harley, somebody on it in my lane. With the warning I was able to stop. But, generally I was just "cruising along" in the dream. I ran into a powerful "block" in what I thought would be easy writing later that day about the same time as the motorcycle incident in the dream and then later on the news heard about the Fort Hood shooting in texas, three killed, an event that had a similar effect on my day and mood, a "wham!" watch out, pay a bit better attention. This is just a minor "example," not scientifically provable, but the sort I have every night. Thanks Hummer Brandon-- There's historical time and mythical time, or history and mythos. In "history" you can prove things in the fashion you describe, in mythos you generally can't, nevertheless, mythos contains most of our most powerful stories, reasons to be alive. The Iliad and Odyssey by Homer might be examples of events mostly in mythos with some historical overlap. I have been shot in dreams too, and at the time, it did not hurt, even affect my life. But, oh boy, was there another time, years distant from that shooting when I felt it! Can I connect the two to the satisfaction of a Harvard neuropsychiatrist? No. But in Mythos I sure can. Hummer

[NyxCC]

Quite an interesting discussion and now that we've opened the can on causality, I'd like to share a few thoughts wall of text about that. To start with, any action we undertake (including thoughts) would always have consequences. Now let me explain a bit how I believe it's possible for dreams and lucid dreams to actually have an effect on daily life. First, we take the very obvious example of a normal dream. Let's say a person dreams of something unpleasant, wakes up with a very bad mood and this mood stays throughout the day. He may or may not be aware that the dream was the cause of this mood, but this mood will lead to thoughts that are in line with the mood and to actions in line with the thoughts. So this is a bit like what Lao Tse said: "Beware of your thoughts, they become your words. Beware of your words, they become your actions. Beware of your actions, they become your habits. Beware of your habits, they become your character. Beware of your character, it becomes your destiny" I think we have all experienced the above example one way or another. So no need to elaborate further. Dreams can also have a direct effect where we consult dream contents and decide to act in a certain way. I will not go into this though, since we are more interested with lucid dreams. So, onto the effects of lucid dreams, why mindfulness pays off and how the effect on waking life of lucid dreams is actually one way that makes the potential benefits of lucid dreaming enormous. Some basic explanations before I get there, thanks for the patience. You may know that every time we have a certain thought, a particular set of neurons would light up, it has been even found out that we have a specific neuron corresponding to a specific person (see the J.Anniston neuron). These neurons are very complexly related to each other and you would have your set of unique associations. For example, if you like J.Anniston, every time you see her, connections with the context of the encounter (like hairstyle maybe, where you saw her, along with the positive emotions, etc.), would add to that connection making it stronger. Or if you don't like her and see her and react with aversion upon her appearance these will get associated with the corresponding feeling and you may even dislike a particular type of clothes because they remind you of her. Another interesting example would be to examine and think about someone you actually know. Let's say you have a colleague that you don't like. Every time you talk to this person you feel irritated, maybe even angry. This set of associations becomes somewhat constant in the brain and then manifests in your dreams, where upon seeing your colleague you have a surge of negative emotions and react accordingly. Since it's a normal dream you might even lose control and do something you normally wouldn't. This behavior is also recorded although much less accessible and remains mostly in your subcon, unless you recall, record and contemplate on the event and bring it to the conscious level. The result - nothing confrontational has happened irl between you and your colleague and yet you feel an even greater aversion towards this person. Another example would be if you suddenly find yourself having romantic feelings towards someone from real life after a dream. What about lucid dreaming? Are there consequences of what you do in the dream world in the real world? The transfer of mood and the actions that follow from the mood are one example of consequences. To understand the possibility for even greater consequences, let us go back to the case of the colleague, this time in a lucid context. You are at some place and realize that you are dreaming, maybe have a particular task in mind but see your colleague. Some of the relevant associations with him light up - ie. aversion, etc. You have the following choices - ignore the DC and go on your business or interact with the DC. When it comes to interacting the way your brain is already wired to react would have the upper hand (at least in the beginning). You will react with aversion, which will naturally influence DC's reactions - he may make evil faces or attack you even if you know it's a dream and try to prevent him. This is by the way shows how our hard wired habits of being chased affect our primary response in dreams. It is only after we begin dissolving these connections consciously (choice in lds) that we acquire a new set of choices and can rewire our reactions. On with choice. You chose to interact with the DC, maybe you succumb to the primary wiring and decide to do something bad - like hit him in the face. Obviously this analysis can deepen and go into many directions. You hit him, enjoy it, or feel relieved or guilty, etc. and the consequences will be different with each way you feel about this. But let's just take this situation a bit further in time and assume you have a 100 lds, where you perform this act 100 times. Then most certainly, you are enforcing the act itself, the association of the act with that person and whatever emotions will result from this act. If a single dream can carry over a mood to rl, imagine the strength of repeating a dream act a hundred or thousand times. One may claim that because this happened in the dream world, it wouldn't matter, but it has been proven that the brain does not tell the difference between the real world and the thought/dream world. What? What I mean is that the very same pathways would become activated whether you do something, think about doing it or watch it being done. It is this phenomena that gives such power to lucid dreaming, because by being aware of something you can actually start changing your primary reactions and improve in areas of interest. The most obvious example would be to counteract any immediate negative reactions that are associated with certain objects. It may involve changing your reaction to that colleague or getting rid of a phobia by facing your fears. Or you can try it the other way around and try to provoke aversion towards something that you are addicted to and want to quit. Repeating the same action over and over again will eventually alter the existing associations and form new ones. And it seems the effects can relate not only to behavioral aspects, but influence our physical performance too. Some athletes have been known to use visualization to mentally train and supposedly improve skills and recent research has shown that something similar can be done during dreaming too. This is from a conversation with Steph. There is at least one study, which shows, that training for throwing coins in buckets trained only in LD is more effective, than the already established effects of visualization - and I'm not sure - but really close to physical practice alone, I believe it was. MelSchaedlich, the German sports psychology researcher, who is sporadically on here, was involved with a TV-docu aired last month, which featured an athlete, too. And now she - believe it or not - does a sleep lab study on throwing darts!! Ok, so maybe there is some effect of dreams on rl, but does that mean that we can't have fun in lds driving cars at fast speed and crashing them into buildings? Does it mean that we are evil for having fun fighting DCs? My personal opinion is that we are given the freedom to try out and experience an endless array of situations, emotions, sensations, which we may never be able to encounter irl. So, this experience tasting would enrich our lives no matter if we try sweet or bitter experiences. Still, one has to be (ideally) always mindful and aware of the fact that every action has a consequence, whether we see it or not. The more we repeat an action the greater the effect. And while making planets collide would have no observable real life behavioral consequence, repeatedly performing actions that exist in our plausibly actionable universe (kiss a colleague vs kiss J.Aniston) will have an effect, whether this will be a memory of the dream upon seeing the person, an urge, or us taking taking the corresponding action. When it comes to fighting random DCs for fun, we come into a sorts of a grey area (at least for my understanding so far). While we know that repeated actions are enforced - the effect might be that one experiences a greater desire to fight DCs in dreams, this doesn't necessarily imply that such an action is inherently bad. This may especially be the case where no real characters are involved and one actually equates the action to playing a game. One also has to refer to the intent behind the act and the feelings related to the act to make any further conclusions. Summary: Dreams, lucid or not do have influence on real life events and we have to be mindful of our own actions, especially those that we repeat often enough to allow them to form into habits. This goes beyond the concepts of good and bad actions, as ultimately lucid dreams (as well as daily awareness & mindfulness) allow us to take a moment's pause to reexamine our reactions and provide us with the freedom to act outside the box.

[Hummer]

NYxCC Thanks for the long discussion. I might put it in Scientology terms though I am not one but have found my dreams use that lingo, model in certain cases. Yes, an "engram" can be established with colleague or parent or what ever. Every time we re-encounter the circumstances that engage that engram the "reactive mind" gets involved. Then our behavior may become negative and automatic and, ultimately repetitive. Lucid dreaming, or LD as you call it can be of great service here in seeing that "engram" and giving the "pre-clear" some chance to choose how to behave more consciously thus clearing the engram and, of course, the impact the person has on others and the world. So, sure, dreams do affect reality in that profoundly basic way. There are also various studies involving what i think is called "noetic science" that have demonstrated to the satisfaction of some in higher academic circles that thoughts have a certain power, impact. That, for instance, if there is an event like 9/11 that affects a vast number of people at the same time the thought wave can be seen in variety of seismograph at a great distance from the event. This is not my area of expertise but I pay some attention to it. Thanks for your post. Hummer

[Fuzzman]

I can site all sorts of examples where, for instance, dreams provided the source for scientific, artistic, mathematical and other discoveries, advances, so, yes, they are connected in that fashion. If you would like me to I can post a list I have of such things. Ah I guess I just misunderstood what you initially meant. For a bit I assumed you were saying that literally what happens in our dreams is happening in the real world somehow and I didn't get how you came to that conclusion. Sorry Also wanted to say, NyxCC, very good way of putting everything and that's exactly the way I feel about it as well. What we do in dreams can strengthen those neurons, but with LDing we can learn to weaken the neurons as well if we choose to actively change our initial reactions. I think as long as we can be aware and recognize our actions and their effect on us then what we do in our dreams will be mostly beneficial.

[StephL]

Very thoughtful, great post, NyxCC - thanks for citing! Buut.. Of course people do not use lucidity for pure evil -- but I ask you, would you like to have an "inception" as imagined in Inception performed on you? Would you know it if it happened? as it maybe already happened with Genesis? If it has what do we do about it? Are lucid dreamers going to those places to recover our lost being? Buut - the onset of this thread didn't mention neural feedback mechanisms or pathological obsessive behaviour - it looks like 1A superstition. Please explain to me this reference to Genesis, Hummer! And define "those places" and "our lost being". It sounds, as if you had watched Inception, and now come here to ask LDers, if we engage in the clash of black against white. Nope. LDing - highly recommended - but it's not your ticket to the Troops Of God or some such. You are alone in your brain, and if you so choose and program your own neurons - nobody can hinder you and nobody should feel entitled to intervene - you'd have to forbid "thinking xyz thoughts" then as well - unacceptable. Interesting implications, though - what about genetic engineering and implants and drugs?? Can well be argued under that umbrella.. If we imagine a totalitarian tyrant, who would be able to read every thought, and expects you to decide in his favour, what to do with that potential thought from moment to moment - it's an appalling idea. And God doesn't even let you off in death - judges you on how you did and if you deserve a state of supposedly eternal bliss - while knowing your loved ones are at least partly in hell. Na Bravo!! Soz - I digress.. Don't worry, Hummer - unless you wake up with suspicious machinery attached - and that we don't hope nor expect any time soon. lucidity to do what? Beautifully put from here: http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...r-day-0-a.html So without further ado, lucid dreaming is that slippery, delicious, wily, extraordinary state in which one sees and understands that he is dreaming, while being in a dream. By becoming aware of the dream, a certain measure of choice and free will is regained by the dreamer. Beginning lucid dreamers delight to learn that they can exercise control over the dream environment, creating, shaping, and transforming the dream according to their will. The dream for them becomes a personal playground in which they can act out any whim or desire that may occur to them. From flying through space to light saber duals, vacationing in Paris or spelunking on the moon, a cup of coffee with Abraham Lincoln, or an intimate encounter with Marilyn Monroe, the only limits are the imagination. To more advanced lucid dreamers, the dream evolves into a type of laboratory, a curiosity, or a puzzle, a place from which to try and derive meaning, uncover truths about oneself, delve into the depths of the psyche, or perhaps hone and refine skills that are used upon waking. Activities here range from self-inquiry to learning to dance, deciphering reality to practicing speeches, and for the artistic, composing or creating art while harnessing the full potential of the mind and imagination working in harmony. All creative, academic, or psychological pursuits can be performed in this wonderland of the mind. I wanted to mention, that I believe, one road to success in LDing is to connect it to a real life passion. I hope to get there with playing darts. To be powerful anecdotal evidence - I would be delighted!! And no problems to look further - to dream big - why not take part in uncovering something profound and positively paradigm-shifting, a marvellous piece of science on the mind! Äham. But at least in LDs themselves - overconfidence is never something negative. Edit: Hm - checking the above posts later..

[Goldenspark]

Hummer, can you please explain why Inception is totally evil? Sorry, I don't get that. It's only a film. On the evil scale it doesn't even register for me. Am I missing something?

[NyxCC]

Very thoughtful, great post, NyxCC - thanks for citing! Buut.. Buut - the onset of this thread didn't mention neural feedback mechanisms or pathological obsessive behaviour - it looks like 1A superstition. Right. The post refers to my own understanding of there being consequences that can be related to the real world and the answer to the question of what can we practically use lucid dreaming for. As for OP's idea of causality, it's up to him to provide some examples to clarify.

[StephL]

Yes, an "engram" can be established with colleague or parent or what ever. Every time we re-encounter the circumstances that engage that engram the "reactive mind" gets involved. Then our behavior may become negative and automatic and, ultimately repetitive. Lucid dreaming, or LD as you call it can be of great service here in seeing that "engram" and giving the "pre-clear" some chance to choose how to behave more consciously thus clearing the engram and, of course, the impact the person has on others and the world. So, sure, dreams do affect reality in that profoundly basic way. There are also various studies involving what i think is called "noetic science" that have demonstrated to the satisfaction of some in higher academic circles that thoughts have a certain power, impact. That, for instance, if there is an event like 9/11 that affects a vast number of people at the same time the thought wave can be seen in variety of seismograph at a great distance from the event. This is not my area of expertise but I pay some attention to it. Hummer Oh well - what a conglomerate - how did you come in contact with Scientology terminology? Once more - I want to know, what your mention of Genesis was about! Inception in the old testament?? Now comes Noetic science - RationalWiki See, see - connections with fundamentalist Christians. Who may also stay Christians in Scientology, if they so choose, as far as I know. Show your colours! Don't be shy! What about Noah? True story?

[Screen]

I suppose the answers vary with the individual. Some use it for harmless entertainment, and others for quests for knowledge. Everyone has different motives for wanting to become lucid. I doubt any two people share the exact same ones. Although, I know that doesn't completely answer your question. All I'm really saying is that the answer for one person, isn't going to apply for everyone else. Goldenspark: I wouldn't call the film evil, but it did showcase possible malicious ways to use lucid dreaming (although, they haven't been confirmed to the best of my knowledge.) There's implanting ideas into a person's mind so they'll reach desired conclusions (like for the man to shut down his business when he normally wouldn't have). You could argue that is a variation of mind control. You could consult dream characters and learn secrets about that person, or possibly steal the secrets. That's all I can remember in regards to possible evils that film may have shown.

[Sensei]

Brandon-- There's historical time and mythical time, or history and mythos. In "history" you can prove things in the fashion you describe, in mythos you generally can't, nevertheless, mythos contains most of our most powerful stories, reasons to be alive. The Iliad and Odyssey by Homer might be examples of events mostly in mythos with some historical overlap. I have been shot in dreams too, and at the time, it did not hurt, even affect my life. But, oh boy, was there another time, years distant from that shooting when I felt it! Can I connect the two to the satisfaction of a Harvard neuropsychiatrist? No. But in Mythos I sure can. Hummer Mythos is real! Yay! *grabs H. P. Lovecraft books and reads diligently* Ah, looking down the list of other people and that your posts are based on things that can neither be proven, nor disproven (things in the past cannot be proven, things in your head cannot be disproven) then there is no sense debating with you. I wish you luck in your LDing studies.

[Hummer]

Goldenspark-- I don't think I said "totally evil." That's okay, mostly evil. Inception depicts the dream hacking, mostly for money, power, control of a young man's mind. It is called and depicted as "hacking" in the film. If it was honestly depicted it would be rape, dream rape, a mind ____ you know what. Starting with "f." This rape of a young man's mind is accomplished to "divest" him of his memory, his interest in his father's company. Who says this is not what happened to us in the Garden of Eden? It is, fantastically, successful, the hackers, rapists, succeed. They plant the false dream that convinces the kid, Robert Fischer, I believe his name is, he never wanted the company. The film chooses to be ambivalent on this. All I know is if a crew of...aliens like this invade my mind I will annihilate them with extreme prejudice. I am, apparently alone in feeling Fischer should have defeated the hackers including the interminably, obnoxiously cute Leonardo. Him too, into the annihilator with extreme prejudice. Films are not connected to reality? This film about the hijacking of a Japanese energy company, or by a Japanese dude occurred shortly before, if I am not mistaken the great tsunami and Fukushima catastrophe. Hummer StephL read about "noetic science" In Dan Brown's book, The Last Symbol, did a bit of research afterward and discovered, yes, there are some serious efforts to measure the power of thoughts. Like Harvard or Princeton. Scientology is a long process and most recently comes from reading a book debunking it, in large measure. However, i have found a whole lot of the imagery, methods of Scientology in my dreams in really fascinating ways that suggest to me that there is something to their method which can be seen much more accurately in dreaming than by "auditing." That the "truths" of Scientology are the province of lucid dreaming and you don't have to pay big bucks to have them. Cripes, I have a masters degree in Fine Arts. I have studied probably 500 versions of the Genesis story in painting. This story has been crammed down our throats and hearts and heads and genitals for millennia. All I am saying is there is an actual record of these things dreamers can access to discover for themselves what the truth is. Got it? Thanks, Hummer Hi Screen-- Thanks for partially confirming my sense that Inception is, at the very least, morally repugnant and yes, a total misuse of the power of lucid dreaming. Mostly my post was a response to several posts here involving really dark dreams, though exceptionally powerful "red pill" visions of reality and I was hoping to find some lucid dreamers willing to "go down" into the "hells" of these folks with them instead of up into "happyville.' Hummer Hey Brandon -- You got a wife? An exceptional girl friend? A beloved old mutt? Can you prove to me or a Harvard neuropsychiatrist dream researcher that you love any one of them? LD dreaming, or dreaming period works on that level. Love level. That makes me not worth it to you, great. I'll take Hamlet any day over Dreaming (The Association of the Study of Dreaming) Journal. Have you read it? No? You haven't missed anything. Thanks Hummer

[StephL]

.. Scientology is a long process and most recently comes from reading a book debunking it, in large measure. However, i have found a whole lot of the imagery, methods of Scientology in my dreams in really fascinating ways that suggest to me that there is something to their method which can be seen much more accurately in dreaming than by "auditing." That the "truths" of Scientology are the province of lucid dreaming and you don't have to pay big bucks to have them. .. Thanks, Hummer Thank you for clarifying - much appreciated! To the above - as coincidence has it - there is a thread on Scientology next door: http://www.dreamviews.com/religion-s...ientology.html And I have a little personal experience myself: Spoiler for quoting myself about this experience: Very interesting videos, Universal Mind - thanks! I remember, having been audited with these rolls as well - it was endless questions, readings and recordings - but it wasn't often enough, before we left - I made no connections to say something about it now directly. There were exercises with two people sitting in front of each other, and there was a certain psychological task to silently do while looking at each other. I remember strongly, that something happened, which had the effect to profoundly surprise me and my mother. If only I knew, what it was exactly. I also had an impressive episode in school the next day or so, where I looked out of the window, and it felt, like I see reality for the first time - some sort of mystical moment coming in late. I was 12 and well versed in the esoteric realms - having been dragged about with my mother and diligently practised, whatever next thing, she had deemed worthy again. And of course I had my moments - but this was something surprising and unusual - at least for the both of us back then. So this points into the direction of effective practices - at least effective as in impress people. Anyways - how can it keep any members at all, if it does not indeed deliver in terms of bettering life for the believers and practitioners? So I wonder, how this auditing works actually. Or whatever else is done exactly. I suspect, it does work in some interesting ways and is worth studying critically - maybe it will. Which book are you talking about? Do I get you correctly - you didn't have an LD yet, but see the logic of Scientology's auditing practice reflected in your normal dreams? How so - sounds interesting!

[Hummer]

StephL -- Yes, I have lucidity. Oh, boy do I have it! You want to do a lucidity penetration of Scientology? I'm willing. Book is "Going Clear" by Lawrence Wright. It is very good though I had to do further research to find actual descriptions of auditing sessions. If I understand your "spoiler" you have had dreams about this issue yourself? More than one? Don't take them as an effort by Scientology to suck you into it, but that is has a certain...handle on something, which it almost totally hides to make money which can be assessed, seen by tough dreamers. Have you had any "lie detector" dreams? These are eMeter dreams. Have you "audited" any classes, any movies, any performances of music? If you have that would mean you are in the position of "auditor" looking into "engrams" in whatever is being audited. This could mean huge cultural programs. They can't make a "religion" out of this! Or money from it. Dreaming, in particular lucid dreaming is more powerful. Hubbard has to get out of the way! Thanks Hummer