Thread: RCs are Boooooring!

I mean whenever I just don't feel like pretending I might be dreaming (which is somewhat rare) I just look around and make myself more aware, like that ADA thing without the "All Day" () and do an almost mechanical RC as I'm doing it.

I agree! I've stopped doing RC's a long time now. I see RC's more as a dream control technique to stabilize the dream rather than as a method for lucidity. Since they can fail even in the dream. In my own experience I have never become lucid by performing a RC. It's always that feeling like you said where you just know you're dreaming, and the thought to RC comes afterwards.

Awareness on the other hand seems to be the real deal as mentioned above. If you stop completely right now and just experience the moment as it is. The now. Then you can get the feeling of becoming lucid. I can at least. So I think the better RC is not to perform a action but rather perform no action. If you feel lucid you can then think, even knowing it's not a dream that you could do absolutely anything right now. For me just this feeling of Freedom is enough. Only difference is that you know there are obvious consequences to your actions in waking life. Hope this helps in some way

I have been RCing for 2 years now and it's gotten very old and boring that I can't do it mindfully anymore!! It's not that I can't do it right, bcz in reality it's just a test like any other where you just do something and observe the result. You don't need to feel or think anything, or be excited or whatever. But, the problem is the part where I need to believe that I might actually be really dreaming and feel true doubt.

There’s a slight misconception here: reality checking and mindfulness are incompatible (I know this sounds like a contradiction, but keep up with me): mindfulness refers to passive awareness, and reality check is a very assertive action.

“But why do we tell people to take their time doing reality checks? Why do we tell them to really ask if it’s a dream?”

It’s not because you need to engage with belief and doubt, because you can’t choose your own beliefs or doubts! What’s the point of reality checking if I know I’m not dreaming? It seems redundant, even more considering the fact that when I suspect I’m dreaming, it won’t be the reality check that will give me lucidity.

The real deal is “automaticity”. The goal is to apply an exercise (or as you call it, a test) in order to habituate you to a principle. And that principle is lucidity, or as people call it these days: awareness.

But it's like I almost always instantaneously become lucid when I doubt if it's a dream. I should mention that i was very good at this cultivation of this critical thought of "I might be dreaming at any given moment", and it really paid off bcz when something weird happened and I started feeling doubt, the first idea that would come is "this might be a dream", then I would RC then become lucid.

We’ve talked about this in the other thread: it’s simply automated association, unconsciously perceiving the meaning of cues. And like we’ve talked in the other day, it happens pretty commonly with another cognitive demanding task: driving. At first, you need to do stop for a second to think “what does that circular sign mean?”, as since you’re not used to it, it takes more attentional resources. But the more you repeat this specificy “cue-answer” throughout the exercise of driving, the more unconscious it becomes: your brain has learned to immediately associate the cue to its meaning, and now it’s free to do other things: this results in you not needing to think “okay, this is a circular sign, red borders…”; instead, you change direction because the sign forces you to. Does this mean you didn’t wonder about the meaning of the sign? Of course not, it just means that such exercise was automated enough that you unconsciously perceived its meaning and acted without having to “think” about it.

Exactly the same for reality checking, and many, many other cognitive tasks: the reality check, even before you the action, is you thinking “Might I be dreaming?”. At first, of course people will do few per day, they’re not used to the amount of cues that could signal that question! But as you improve, as it’s your case, you’re already feeling the effects of this “automated association”: you become lucid because in the background, unconsciously, you’ve already questioned yourself whether you’re dreaming or not.

Folks, this is learning: loads of research dwindle on how we achieve this. There’s even explanations why reality checks are a behavior harder to automate than, for example, reading a light sign: simple conditional theory which states that the pairing of the unconditional reward with the conditioned stimulus strengthens the association, but this association is influenced by things like emotional state, number of pairings and their frequency/intensity, and even motivation.
(If you still didn’t get it, think about the nature of lucid dreaming exercises: you fail 90% of the times to achieve a 10% - made up numbers – aka, you practice all day for a shot of lucidity in a short period of time during REM…). Don’t forget that simple statistics shows that what we’d call expert lucid dreamers (imagine people who have 1 lucid per night) have LOW chances of becoming lucid.

This would inevitably lead to a 2nd part of the post “awareness, you got it wrong”, something that Sageous said but it’s probably forgotten: (he said something along the lines of “awareness is not something you do, it’s a state not an action”), or: lucid dreaming exercises are designed to reach awareness, the state. You don’t practice awareness, ADA/Mindfulness is not awareness. Instead, these are all tools to reach the state of lucidity…you simply don’t call it lucidity because you’re not dreaming (more correctly, lucidity is a more refined type of awareness, there was also a discussion on this on the past, with the “mirror-test” and other mentions). But this post is already too big

In the end, this might lead you to question: “but what is the use for reality checks if I reach lucidity just by suspecting I’m dreaming’”…well, as much as I hate myself for introducing new terms, think of them as “awareness checks”: if you’re doing a reality check, is because you’re aware of the possibility that you might be dreaming; they are a quantifiable way to measure the moments that you weren’t simply passively going on through your day, but you were actually admitting the possibility.

Some people might disagree, but just like the red-sign when driving, as long as you internalized the meaning of the reality check: the more, the better (although there are a few other factors that also influence it, I’ll name them if you’re curious).
Of course there’s a difference since most times you’ll reality check and see no results (cause you’ll be awake), but the goal is to strengthen this cue as much as possible, make it as automatic as possible. After all, this is pretty much habit formation, something every lucid dreamer has to go through.

So we RC to develop a habit of critical thinking about our current state. We look around and try to find ques. After lots of practice, it becomes unconscious and automatic. So now I become lucid before the RC because the point of the RC is to develop this skill, and now that I have that skill, it works on it's own without me needing to consciously activate this doubt and que searching and test.

So, train critical thinking so it becomes a habit. RC is just applying critical thinking, and when critical thinking becomes a habit ---> by definition, I need no more conscious actions to activate it.

Did I get it right?? If not......well then..... 42 :p (thoughty2 lol i love that guy)

Also, since critical thinking partially relies on dream signs, is it beneficial to train myself to notice dream signs better? So I would be more likely to notice one (consciously or unconsciously) next time it happens?? I can't but think that that would be a part of what ADA wants us to do.

Also I am really really curious about the other factors

So we RC to develop a habit of critical thinking about our current state.

- Reality checks are just a way to measure your state of awareness, just like not crashing against the front car when the driver hits the breaks is a way to measure whether you're aware of your surroundings. But don't forget this: they are just ONE way. There are other ways to reach awareness that have nothing to do with critical thinking.
- Critical thinking comes in when you think about lucidity: lucidity is not mindfulness (you don't become lucid from paying attention to your body, or breathe, or surroundings...you don't become lucid from passive awareness), but awareness of your state. For that, you need to do something more than paying attention: you have to engage with the information your surroundings are giving you, being noticing oddities in the dream, realizing impossible scenarios that are occurring, etc. In lucid dreaming talk, when we refer to critical thinking, we're essentially saying "question everything".

After lots of practice, it becomes unconscious and automatic. So now I become lucid before the RC because the point of the RC is to develop this skill, and now that I have that skill, it works on it's own without me needing to consciously activate this doubt and que searching and test.

You're making it sound like a magical formula that works every time xD Let's make another comparison with driving so your understand this question of "automaticity": remember how seeing a STOP sign makes you know automatically that you need to stop? That's automaticity. But what if I showed you an extreme rare sign (think: frequent occurrence of earthquake). The response to the cue might be automated for the STOP sign, but clearly not for the rare sign, and you'll end up wasting a few moments thinking "what the hell is this?". It's the same with reality checks: there is an infinite number of cues that might elicit this response, and not all of them are as specific as " that cow is flying". On top of that, the multitude of factors influences the conditioned response: you might be extremely anxious in a dream, you might be focused, and all those factors play into whether you're going to associate the "am I dreaming?"/reality check with the cue.

Also, since critical thinking partially relies on dream signs, is it beneficial to train myself to notice dream signs better? So I would be more likely to notice one (consciously or unconsciously) next time it happens?? I can't but think that that would be a part of what ADA wants us to do.

Critical thinking does not partially rely on dream signs. In fact, it is highly regarded because it's an amazing tool to deal with unfamiliar situations: you're applying critical thinking when you think "this tsunami doesn't make sense because...." or "I know this person is saying me I'm awake, but X indicates I'm not".
Regarding Dream signs, of course! I've personally had (and still occasionally do) loads of lucid dreams because of a very frequent dream sign (cats). Like I said, the other factors matter, like frequency.

Regarding ADA, the core concept as the author presents it, it's mindfulness, which is another great method to reach awareness (read, lucidity), and consists in passive observation. Couple this with the critical thinking that I've just mentioned above, and bang, lucidity. It's a great combo imo, and no wonder so many people have great success with it

Zoth for a DG!

Haha, love your posts, man

- Reality checks are just a way to measure your state of awareness, just like not crashing against the front car when the driver hits the breaks is a way to measure whether you're aware of your surroundings. But don't forget this: they are just ONE way. There are other ways to reach awareness that have nothing to do with critical thinking.

By "measure" you mean indicate??

- Critical thinking comes in when you think about lucidity: lucidity is not mindfulness (you don't become lucid from paying attention to your body, or breathe, or surroundings...you don't become lucid from passive awareness), but awareness of your state. For that, you need to do something more than paying attention: you have to engage with the information your surroundings are giving you, being noticing oddities in the dream, realizing impossible scenarios that are occurring, etc. In lucid dreaming talk, when we refer to critical thinking, we're essentially saying "question everything".

Regarding ADA, the core concept as the author presents it, it's mindfulness, which is another great method to reach awareness (read, lucidity), and consists in passive observation. Couple this with the critical thinking that I've just mentioned above, and bang, lucidity. It's a great combo imo, and no wonder so many people have great success with it

So I should be more mindful (it makes me more present in the moment and so I am focused better on what's going on), and with my trained critical thinking (my formed tendency to doubt and question my state and oddities around me and so on) makes me read some of the unusual ques as suspicious, and since I'm inclined to consider the first possible reason of suspicions is being in a dream, bam I become lucid. Which brings me to the next point:

Critical thinking does not partially rely on dream signs. In fact, it is highly regarded because it's an amazing tool to deal with unfamiliar situations: you're applying critical thinking when you think "this tsunami doesn't make sense because...." or "I know this person is saying me I'm awake, but X indicates I'm not".

Sorry it's my bad. I should have been clearer. By dream signs I meant ques, unfamiliar suspicious things. What I was asking was "Is there a way to make ourselves better at noticing oddities?" I guess the answer is mindfulness?? I practice mindful meditation. So I'm doing it, right? I'm cultivating (or whatever) this mindfulness we're talking about here, right?

Critical thinking is trained by doing proper RCs, right?

Mindfulness helps me be more focused on the present and what's going on. Mindfulness is the absorber, and being critical makes us (or our unconscious) engage the data we are receiving to check as best as we can for oddities and so on that indicate we are dreaming.

Sooooo:
Powerful Mindfulness: High quality x ray (more efficient than cheap ones).
Critical thinking: Security officer checking for oddities and indications of law-breaking stuff.


I'm trying to understand this in a general way, so please forgive me if my posts seem too simplistic :p

By "measure" you mean indicate??

In this case, the terms are interchangeable: one reality check indicates me one moment of awareness; 20 reality checks indicate many more. Please don't make this a rule of thumb though: a reality check doesn't necessarily come with the "Am I dreaming?", since even an animal can be trained to - completely unrelated to awareness - do a reality check in response to a given stimulus. By this I mean: there are cues (like your phone telling you to do a reality check) that require no awareness, and while they're not necessarily bad, they leave out the part where you're actively engaging with your surroundings. In this sense, the "best" reality checks are the ones where you find the cue yourself (it tells me that you're in a state of awareness and employing critical thinking to determine whether there's a reason to determine that you're dreaming).

So I should be more mindful (it makes me more present in the moment and so I am focused better on what's going on), and with my trained critical thinking (my formed tendency to doubt and question my state and oddities around me and so on) makes me read some of the unusual ques as suspicious, and since I'm inclined to consider the first possible reason of suspicions is being in a dream, bam I become lucid. Which brings me to the next point:

In a general way yes (there are more refined ways to describe critical thinking, but that's the essence for the purposes of lucidity yes). The "trained" critical thinking, I'd say it's not hugely relevant: a lot of the practical stuff it's a simple matter of pattern recognition (this is impossible: lucid; this makes no sense: lucid; I don't remember coming here: lucid), so there's no need for you to go out of your way to boost "critical thinking skills", it's just a process involved in the journey for lucidity. But yes, the better you're at recognizing these patterns (critical thinking being what helps you see many of them, especially the more refined ones, a great example once again being when dream characters assure you you're not dreaming), the more chances you give yourself.
Yet another disclaimer: awareness= finding your own cues ----NOT THE SAME-----as recognizing cues (which is a point I argued once with Sageous, but imo recognizing cues, with the help of prospective memory, is the fastest way to begin lucid dreaming induction xD I agree with him though that if you want to experience lucidity in it's truest form, then finding your own cues is better, you become much less reliant and more prone to have more lucid dreams).

Critical thinking is trained by doing proper RCs, right?

I'd say leave the "train critical thinking" behind LouaiB. Like I said in the above paragraph, the main issue with lucid induction is not interpreting the oddities with your dreams, is being aware of them. You said it yourself: doesn't matter how small the suspicion is, the moment you reach it, bang, lucidity."

"Is there a way to make ourselves better at noticing oddities?" I guess the answer is mindfulness?? I practice mindful meditation. So I'm doing it, right? I'm cultivating (or whatever) this mindfulness we're talking about here, right?

Mindfulness is just passive awareness, without judgement or considerations. Would you become lucid by simply being aware that you're in the middle of a forest, without any thoughts as to how you got there? Of course not. The second part is the "questioning" you obtain from the "critical thinking" (I'm starting to dislike this term, so I'll repeat: much of it its simple pattern recognition/simple reasoning, or like you said, "noticing oddities" ): you analyse, question, draw conclusions regarding your surroundings (not necessarily physical ofc), and yourself. And the more I think about this, the more this whole process seems to be much better defined as "insight". It even shows up in Lding studies ^^ (and yes by insight, we're talking about this ability to see underlining cause of events, connections between concepts, etc.). But in the end, it all revolves around the same: mindfulness + criticalthinking/insight: in simple words: pay attention, but instead just being passively aware, critique and reason and analyze what your reality is telling you, always with the assumption that "is there anything that might tell me I'm dreaming?".

Powerful Mindfulness: High quality x ray (more efficient than cheap ones).
Critical thinking: Security officer checking for oddities and indications of law-breaking stuff.

Yup. I hate to sound like a preacher, so I'd invite you to check by yourself the dream journals of frequent lucid dreamers around DV: lucidity comes mostly as an answer to a cue (you don't go lucid out of the blue in DILDs, you just may not know the reason), and that cue can come the dream itself ("hey, that's LouaiB there, he's my dream partner for the competition, this is a dream!") or by awareness plus critical perspective ("I went to a small house and entered in a room which had a very familiar bench....I realized it was the same bench from my childhood plays, so this had to be a dream!"). These are principles that are shown by lucid dreamers: they're not a theory, they're a pattern of data: most DILD come from interaction with the dream (I say most because of those very rare moments where you're like "I have something to do, but I can't remember what...oh, totm!), and the more you prepare yourself to spot those cues, the more chances you'll end up lucid.

PS: Of course it's hard, your cognition is impaired! In that sense lucidity is like a security code: if it was easy, it would defeat the entire purpose, we're talking about disrupting the natural process of dreaming!

In this case, the terms are interchangeable: one reality check indicates me one moment of awareness; 20 reality checks indicate many more. Please don't make this a rule of thumb though: a reality check doesn't necessarily come with the "Am I dreaming?", since even an animal can be trained to - completely unrelated to awareness - do a reality check in response to a given stimulus. By this I mean: there are cues (like your phone telling you to do a reality check) that require no awareness, and while they're not necessarily bad, they leave out the part where you're actively engaging with your surroundings. In this sense, the "best" reality checks are the ones where you find the cue yourself (it tells me that you're in a state of awareness and employing critical thinking to determine whether there's a reason to determine that you're dreaming).

Ok I get it now.

So I should be more mindful (it makes me more present in the moment and so I am focused better on what's going on), and with my trained critical thinking (my formed tendency to doubt and question my state and oddities around me and so on) makes me read some of the unusual ques as suspicious, and since I'm inclined to consider the first possible reason of suspicions is being in a dream, bam I become lucid. Which brings me to the next point:
In a general way yes (there are more refined ways to describe critical thinking, but that's the essence for the purposes of lucidity yes). The "trained" critical thinking, I'd say it's not hugely relevant: a lot of the practical stuff it's a simple matter of pattern recognition (this is impossible: lucid; this makes no sense: lucid; I don't remember coming here: lucid), so there's no need for you to go out of your way to boost "critical thinking skills", it's just a process involved in the journey for lucidity. But yes, the better you're at recognizing these patterns (critical thinking being what helps you see many of them, especially the more refined ones, a great example once again being when dream characters assure you you're not dreaming), the more chances you give yourself.
Yet another disclaimer: awareness= finding your own cues ----NOT THE SAME-----as recognizing cues (which is a point I argued once with Sageous, but imo recognizing cues, with the help of prospective memory, is the fastest way to begin lucid dreaming induction xD I agree with him though that if you want to experience lucidity in it's truest form, then finding your own cues is better, you become much less reliant and more prone to have more lucid dreams).

Critical thinking is trained by doing proper RCs, right?
I'd say leave the "train critical thinking" behind LouaiB. Like I said in the above paragraph, the main issue with lucid induction is not interpreting the oddities with your dreams, is being aware of them. You said it yourself: doesn't matter how small the suspicion is, the moment you reach it, bang, lucidity."

I didn't mean "training critical thinking" like that. I meant it more like training on becoming more suspicious and suspect it might be a dream when I notice something weird happen. You know, train to initiate our LD criticality when something suspicious happens, instead of just passing it as "oh well, the circus must be in town".

Like, without critical thinking, we would just passively experience the dream and not try to logic any suspicious ques. What does a LDer do to not make that happen? To not just be passive? RC? Is RC making us form a habit of realizing it might be a dream when these oddities occur? Actually if I understand correctly the teachings of Stephen Laberge, he says that non-LDers experience the oddities and do doubt them, but the difference is that they reach wrong answers, like "the circus is in town" or whatever, and not that "it's a dream" bcz they're not trained to see that as a possibility. But us LDers train not to achieve critical thinking in dreams, bcz it is pesent already, but more so to add "it's a dream" to our critical faculty's list of possible explanation to the occurrence of oddities, and we usually practice that by RCing when oddities happen and intentionally considering "it might be a dream" as a solution and answer. That's what I was saying.

So, a RC indicates if i "achieve states of awareness and employ critical thinking to determine whether there's a reason to determine that I'm dreaming". I achieve this state of awareness by training during the day to be mindful and observant (aware) of any possible dream ques. I employ this critical thinking, or insight, by teaching myself that the first thing I need to suspect when an oddity occurs is that I might be dreaming.
Combined together, I notice as best as I can (since my best would be weak probably bcz of impaired cognition) oddities in dreams and dream indicators, then the first idea that pops in my head is "this must be a dream!!"

So I'm training myself on being aware of dream ques and oddities, and having "I'm dreaming" as the first answer when these occur. Mindfulness is just another word for being aware of my environment and noticing oddities, and critical thinking (or insight) is the process of linking all these ques and noticing how suspicious they are and so realising it's a dream since I taught myself "If there's something off, it must be a dream".

In very simple terms: All I need to do is practice mindfulness, place intentions to realizing oddities and possible dream ques, and answering these suspicions by "this must be a dream".

Soooo: " pay attention, but instead just being passively aware, critique and reason and analyze what your reality is telling you, always with the assumption that "is there anything that might tell me I'm dreaming?"." <-------- That

Also I like to think of the intention to notice dream ques as "i must search for the dream". You know, being aware of the environment and analyze it in search for dream ques.

Did I get it right??

Also I have a question:

When I notice oddities, do I automatically become suspicious?? Bcz if I become suspicious, it's easy from there to realize it's a dream cuz I trained my PM to think "DREAM!!" everytime I feel suspicion thnx to RCing everytime I feel suspicious IRL. Or does it depend on my cognition and other random factors?

he says that non-LDers experience the oddities and do doubt them, but the difference is that they reach wrong answers, like "the circus is in town" or whatever, and not that "it's a dream" bcz they're not trained to see that as a possibility. But us LDers train not to achieve critical thinking in dreams, bcz it is pesent already, but more so to add "it's a dream" to our critical faculty's list of possible explanation to the occurrence of oddities, and we usually practice that by RCing when oddities happen and intentionally considering "it might be a dream" as a solution and answer. That's what I was saying.

Check it for yourself: go to an online dream bank and see if that holds: how common do you think dream reports of people being suspicious are? Even if that was true, the fact that you're accustomed with the concept of lucid dreaming would mean you'd then be lucid all the time. In fact, from what I can recall, the latest lucid dreaming studies that touch in that issue all provide data that supports the exact opposite of what LaBerge seems to preach.

Combined together, I notice as best as I can (since my best would be weak probably bcz of impaired cognition) oddities in dreams and dream indicators, then the first idea that pops in my head is "this must be a dream!!"

Not just impaired cognition: all those other factors like the characteristics of the cue, your own degree of wakefulness (which explains why so many people become lucid at the end of REM), etc, etc. This is what makes it so "difficult", there are a lot of variables in play.

What does a LDer do to not make that happen? To not just be passive? RC? Is RC making us form a habit of realizing it might be a dream when these oddities occur?
In very simple terms: All I need to do is practice mindfulness, place intentions to realizing oddities and possible dream ques, and answering these suspicions by "this must be a dream".

(I'll disregard the notion of "set of steps one takes in order to reach lucidity" you seem to insist on for the sake of the conversation...just for reference, I don't think that idea is wrong, just that it's too early since we're so clueless about the best way to induce lucidity).

Mindfulness: helps, by making you more prone to detect and question reality around you.
Questioning: be it via critical thinking/awareness, helps you determining if you're dreaming. There are other ways, like using dream signs and simply learn to associate them with reality checks.
Reality checks: yet ANOTHER tool that might ease the process. In a reality check, it doesn't matter whether you're critically thinking or not, all it matters is that you do it. Like I said, reality checking is just an indicator of awareness oriented towards lucidity, just like mindfulness + questioning whether something is wrong (for example) is another indicator of awareness oriented towards lucidity. As opposed, meditating by itself is not an indicator of awareness oriented towards lucidity: you might be meditating without any intent of realizing whether you're dreaming or not, it tells you nothing about lucidity.

pay attention, but instead just being passively aware, critique and reason and analyze what your reality is telling you, always with the assumption that "is there anything that might tell me I'm dreaming?

Yes. Never forget that there are several ways to do that: some people like to check for inconsistencies, other people for impossibilities, other people rely more on memory. What you're doing is essentially changing the thought-process in your brain: you're stressing out both the intention (which indirectly helps by "priming" you), the behavior, and the association between the cue and the behavior (which in this case, is questioning whether you're dreaming).

When I notice oddities, do I automatically become suspicious?? Bcz if I become suspicious, it's easy from there to realize it's a dream cuz I trained my PM to think "DREAM!!" everytime I feel suspicion thnx to RCing everytime I feel suspicious IRL. Or does it depend on my cognition and other random factors?

You've never had dreams where you misinterpreted a suspicion? There's even a thread here for that, for these moments where you missed lucidity. But what do you strike as more common: not noticing things to be suspicious about, or being suspicious but not being able to tell it's a dream? (tip, it's the first one). This naturally occurs way more to beginners, indicating it's relevant to their (lack of) thoughts about how "anywhere, at any time, I might be dreaming", but of course there are other factors: might even simple be a case of you being so focused on the dream plot. That's why making mindfulness a second nature helps: it makes you more detached from what's going on, allowing you a better perspective on the events occurring. Funny thing? The most boring parts of lucid dreaming seem to actually be the most important ones ^^

PS: before you ask "is there any semi-reliable way to measure this behavior oriented towards lucidity?" I think Sensei is a good example of a person with a progress system that allows him to see how he improves, so you might want to ask him. Personally, out of my head, I'd say that reality checks are a simple way to measure (because they're tangible actions, that's because), but how you would go about to measure them...number of reality checks are one indicator, but not a perfect one (it doesn't help if you do 20 reality checks, but 18 of them are in the space of 1 hour, and you do 2 more the rest of the day). Using prospective memory is one way, but eventually you'll be memorizing the cues and their appearance so that would defeat the purpose as well....my best bet would be some way of determining how good the spread of your reality checks throughout the day are: the smaller the average range between points could reasonably indicate how big are your "time gaps" are.

I'm really enjoying this thread. I feel like I understand the whole RC thing a lot better now. And it makes a lot of sense. All the periods of my life where I had high lucid dream frequency were also periods where I recognized oddities consistently towards the day.

I'm guessing that ceasing to recognize oddities throughout the day as hints that I might be dreaming is the biggest factor as to why my LD frequency went on the low side.

I stopped doing this because I wanted to focus on mindfulness which I thought was a more refined sense of awareness but now I see the problem, it's passive and not related with lucid dreaming. This seems so simple, I should have understood this before, especially after reading all those threads...

It's getting much clearer now.

So basically, I practice being mindful and 'aware' during the day, but that alone isn't enough bcz it's just passive observation. So, I need to become an oddities freak. I need to intention finding and being aware of oddities and possible dream ques around me. And, with my constant thought of "I might be dreaming at any time. Any oddities should make me suspicious it might be a dream", when I encounter and realize an oddity in a dream, I'm likely to become lucid.

(I'll disregard the notion of "set of steps one takes in order to reach lucidity" you seem to insist on for the sake of the conversation...just for reference, I don't think that idea is wrong, just that it's too early since we're so clueless about the best way to induce lucidity).

I was writing the previous sentence thinking I might still be making it in a step by step way. I'm trying to understand it now more on a factors (for a lack of better word) basis (the things that play together to increase the likeliness of lucidity).

So we're just practicing on trying to use dream oddities to our advantages to become lucid (in this case).

before you ask "is there any semi-reliable way to measure this behavior oriented towards lucidity?" I think Sensei is a good example of a person with a progress system that allows him to see how he improves, so you might want to ask him. Personally, out of my head, I'd say that reality checks are a simple way to measure (because they're tangible actions, that's because), but how you would go about to measure them...number of reality checks are one indicator, but not a perfect one (it doesn't help if you do 20 reality checks, but 18 of them are in the space of 1 hour, and you do 2 more the rest of the day). Using prospective memory is one way, but eventually you'll be memorizing the cues and their appearance so that would defeat the purpose as well....my best bet would be some way of determining how good the spread of your reality checks throughout the day are: the smaller the average range between points could reasonably indicate how big are your "time gaps" are.

Can't I just note how frequently, effectively ,and consistently I'm noticing oddities and suspecting a dream? Like, I think I can do that.

Yes. Never forget that there are several ways to do that: some people like to check for inconsistencies, other people for impossibilities, other people rely more on memory.

I'll need to add these too to my routine. They look really helpful, especially that for one thing lots of dreams of might happen in places I don't know IRL or have stopped going to.

Check it for yourself: go to an online dream bank and see if that holds: how common do you think dream reports of people being suspicious are? Even if that was true, the fact that you're accustomed with the concept of lucid dreaming would mean you'd then be lucid all the time. In fact, from what I can recall, the latest lucid dreaming studies that touch in that issue all provide data that supports the exact opposite of what LaBerge seems to preach.

So, the truth is we really don't feel much suspicion in dreams unless we actively train ourselves to notice ques and feel suspicious it might be a dream if they occur?

Also, this is big. I can't believe EWLD isn't a very reliable book. Everything I know is a lie!! QnQ lol
I need to check out these studies you're talking about. One question though......Are they explained in a way a neuroscience idiot can understand?? I just graduated highschool a month or 2 ago, so I'm not that much of a person who would understand neuroscience.

Originally Posted by Zoth

But in the end, it all revolves around the same: mindfulness + criticalthinking/insight: in simple words: pay attention, but instead just being passively aware, critique and reason and analyze what your reality is telling you, always with the assumption that "is there anything that might tell me I'm dreaming?".

Yes this is similar to how I like to phrase it: pay attention, and reflect on what you notice.

Focus on various sensations (breathing, gravity, body, location, etc.) *can* result in lucidity *when combined* with acknowledging the reason for noting it in the first place: to determine your state.

One document I read recently described this active reflection for lucid dreaming as "being aware of your awareness," a phrasing that resonates well with me.

Any oddities should make me suspicious it might be a dream", when I encounter and realize an oddity in a dream, I'm likely to become lucid.

Oddities including a big variety of things: uncommon but not impossible events (this guy moved to Spain, what is he doing here?), extreme sensations like FryingMan stated (if you train yourself to be mindful of your emotions, that anxiety dream might just give you a lucid), out of order events (I'm working as a doctor? But I just started my degree)...there's a multitude of things, but they all can be perceived using this "insight", where you perceive the connection and essence of the events and their meaning.

Can't I just note how frequently, effectively ,and consistently I'm noticing oddities and suspecting a dream? Like, I think I can do that.

Yes you can, my goal here was to emphasize a good operationalization.

So, the truth is we really don't feel much suspicion in dreams unless we actively train ourselves to notice ques and feel suspicious it might be a dream if they occur?

Once again, this is not a theory: it's a pattern of data (something we can clearly see). The thousands of reports that you can find in dream banks do not show "frequent suspicion regarding dream content" as prevalent. The meaning of this pattern is still not known - researchers still don't know exactly why we aren't suspicious, but what we know so far is that is probably because we're not actively monitoring what's going on around us, kind of like when you're so focused on a videogame that you don't notice people talking to you.

Also, this is big. I can't believe EWLD isn't a very reliable book. Everything I know is a lie!! QnQ lol

Going a bit off-topic, but I'm glad you mentioned this: this is not to say that people like LaBerge aren't good researchers, but EWLD was meant for a lay person, a wide audience, and is a book written to sell. It's typical of popular science books: many times they exaggerate their claims or go out of their way to talk about things that aren't exactly backed up by research. Personally I'm much more interested on the work of people like Tadas Stumbrys, and especially on works like this one. Because that's one of the main reasons why we're having this conversation: we lack research, and as lucid dreaming enthusiasts, we have to resort to other ways to come up with methods and techniques of achieving lucidity. Some of them are brilliant, like WBTB, ADA, WILD, DEILD, MILD, but many of them are simply anecdotal reports that may or may not have any truth to them. But what else can you do? Communities like DreamViews are still pioneers on lucid dreaming research because proper scientific research on this field is coming out in a slow scale (this is not a coincidence, there are actually reasons why dream research has such low amount of funding).

I need to check out these studies you're talking about. One question though......Are they explained in a way a neuroscience idiot can understand?? I just graduated highschool a month or 2 ago, so I'm not that much of a person who would understand neuroscience.

I know this doesn't exactly answer your question, but while you can understand the "general idea" behind them with some basic knowledge, science doesn't deal with absolute truths: a study simply adds to evidence in favor or against a particular hypothesis, and it's only with many and varied studies that we can grasp a solid knowledge that allow us to formulate theories. That's why many times there's not much interest in discussing a particular lucid dreaming study: it's just ONE study, most of the times using dangerous (in the sense of unreliable) methods (like fmri, gosh the false positives from it), and small samples. Not to mention the wording used that induces the reader in error, like that study by Ursula Voss that claims something regarding lucidity, but when StephL and other people examined it here in the forum, the results only showed aspects that tend to be present in a lucid dream: the most important thing - lucidity - wasn't a variable included in those results (thus, why would they even talk about lucidity lol). It's a delicate and fun (for some of us) process, but for the people merely interested on reaching lucidity, a very slow and mostly useless one.

edit: We should still be hopeful though, EILD is a fascinating idea born out of lucid dream research, and once research in that area gets a bit more love, I'm optimist that we'll see lucid dreaming devices that work with a significant amount of success. A positive thing that has happened recently is that cognitive scientists are starting to see the potential of lucid dreaming as a way to understand consciousness. I personally feel that the fact that people like us can help advance science and let the world know about the wonderful things about lucid dreaming at the same time should act as another boost in motivation for every onironaut out there ^^

I, myself don't do physical RCs. I may not be one to talk seeing as how my LD count isn't that high. However, I've been trying to visualize the action that I will be doing within the next 30 seconds or so and make sure that I do it and the same night that I practiced this technique, I became lucid (twice I think). But, when all else fails, I think that's you should just take in the moment. Why are you doing what you are doing? I find that in most, if not all of my dreams, my actions have no real purpose behind them. Even as I'm typing this, I know that I'm typing this message in order to respond to your original post. I can also envision myself pressing the "Post Quick Reply Button" as I am coming to a close. Just be present and know why you are doing what you are doing. I hope this helps.

so mindfulness + insight + priming the idea of "i might be dreaming at any moment" is pretty much what i should do.
_me being more aware (mindful) allows me to absorb more and start noticing suspicious things and become suspicious, then insight is *activated* (lol) and since I'm primed to think this process of suspicion might mean dream, I'm *likely* to become lucid.

ok, got it.

Also, I forgot to ask you, but what is it "make our own ques" part that Sageous says??

Also, I need to thank you. You've probably spent hours for these posts these couple days. They really really helped me. I'm really grateful

also, nice seeing you again. Been forever!! (lol I was too busy on this subject to say hi shame on me )

I did once become lucid because of an RC. It was the early days of my joining here, and I had only just discovered the nose plug RC.
In the dream I had very low awareness, and automatically did a nose plug before I had anything like lucidity. the RC worked (I could breathe), and it was only after that that I became lucid.
It has never happened again like that; I always become aware first then nose plug as confirmation.
I guess that first time the RC acted a bit like a mantra in a MILD. The idea of a nose plug bled over into my dream.