Attitudes of females toward other females

[Arra]

I'll first say that I'm a little buzzed. I'm not sure whether or not what I'm about to say is only in my mind. If it is, I risk simply expressing a general flaw about my own mental state which isn't a general issue at all. The thoughts and attitudes of females toward other females have been on my mind a lot lately. Some of this may be in my mind, but some of it isn't. I have discussed this with a few other women, and they tend to agree. I suspect that a lot of this isn't at all known to males. It happens solely while females are interacting with other females. There are a few parts to this, and it isn't about anything specific, just a few observations. A lot of females, when they even walk by another female, are like to judge her level of attractiveness, and determine which of the two is more attractive. I admit that I do this. I try not to, but it's a natural reaction upon seeing another female. Even when I see another female who I consider sexually attractive, and even get turned on by her a little, I will compare her to myself, so there will always be a little envy if I determine that she's more attractive than I am, even though I usually try to deny that such a thing happens. While walking by another woman, and there is eye contact, I often get the impression that she's doing the same thing. A friend recently brought up to me the case of female gamers. I play L4D2 with many people, recently with a lot of other women. It is a sociable environment and is quite amazing, considering we're able to get 8-player drunken games composed entirely of women, when women are so rare on the game in general. I find that, with this group, I am able to be friends with the women there. There are no feelings of envy. They are just other people who are fun to be around. What the friend brought up though, was that we who are in the group are rare females. She's gotten the impression, and I have too, that a lot of female gamers don't want other women in the game. They enjoy being the center of attention, and don't want any other 'competition'. I've gotten similar impressions with other women, similar attitudes. It seems it's difficult for women to truly befriend other women without judgments and comparisons being made. It almost semes like, with a lot of women, there is a certain hostility. Friendliness is rare, and when it happens, it's often ingenuine. I find that I often don't enjoy interacting with other women for this reason. It's almost like, the goal is to gain the attraction of men, so there is little point in interacting with other women, other than to appear friendly so that men can see and be attracted to us. That is the feeling I get, even though I'm certainly never consciously trying to attract men. It's very hard to explain. I have recently been trying to rid myself of the natural inclination I have to judge other women and my aversion to being friends with them. I'm somewhere in the middle right now, trying to be as friendly to other women as I am to men, to not do what I've described throughout most of this post. It's much better, as we're all human and can interact with and relate to one another, no matter our gender.

[ninja9578]

FYI, a good percentage of female gamers are not female. During the Family Guy Star Wars Peter: Hey, check it out! It's another chick! The only other chick in the galaxy! Lois: I don't like her. Guys do the same thing, we judge each other's looks too when we walk by or meet someone new. It's entirely natural, and comes from evolution. We are subconsciously sizing up mating competition, you are doing the same thing. But don't worry, I've seen pictures of you, you are very attractive

[greenhavoc]

you're wrong, we do notice it. we notice a lot of things, but we have a secret weapon that allows us to instantly forgive and forget: a pingaling. you should have been born with one dianeva, because it's freaking awesome. maybe that's why men have, are and will always rule the planet.

[Arra]

Ah, I've finally seen concsluvie evidence of what people say about you - that you really are a troll in the worst sense of the word. @ninja thanks! lol.. but it's one of those evolutionary traits that might be best to overcome, for the reasons I've mentioned.

[greenhavoc]

that you really are a troll in the worst sense of the word *sigh instantly forgive and forget can you read?

[Arra]

I can read.

[Patrick]

I agree with you to a degree Dianeva, but I find that the girls who are competitive generally have less girl friends due to the whole envy thing, whilst girls who are less competitive have more girl friends, even though they are probably still making comparisons between themselves.

[DeeryTheDeer]

Guys do the same thing, we judge each other's looks too when we walk by or meet someone new. It's entirely natural, and comes from evolution. We are subconsciously sizing up mating competition, you are doing the same thing. Do guys also get turned on while sizing up other guys who are attractive? Because that would help with my fantasies.

[Xei]

Only if they're gay... obviously...

[Abra]

Only if they're gay... obviously... Kinsey scale, brah.

[Xei]

Being a bit gay still means you're gay.

[DeeryTheDeer]

Only if they're gay... obviously... Yet women don't have to be automatically lesbian to be attracted to other women sexually, in our society.

[Oneironaut Zero]

Yet women don't have to be automatically lesbian to be attracted to other women sexually, in our society. That depends entirely on who you ask. "Automatically lesbian" is an arbitrary term. It takes the same amount of gayness for a man to be turned on by a man as it does for a woman to be turned on for a woman. It's just 'graded' differently, in much of our society, which is on a completely fabricated scale.

[Xei]

Yet women don't have to be automatically lesbian to be attracted to other women sexually, in our society. No but they'd be automatically lesbian or bisexual.

[Xox]

This video about sums it up, it's pretty great

[Erii]

Mmm, yeah I agree. I don't really seem to do this that often, but I know I do it. If I'm playing a game online and it's all guys, I never use my headset, but if there's a girl in it, I might, because I don't want to be the center of attention in the game, so I think it's cool if there are other chicks playing it Another thing is, a lot of women try to look good (dress up, makeup, etc.) for other women, to try and "out do them" or whatever. I personally think it's stupid >_> but i've noticed it a lot. I used to have a lot of guy friends, but not really any more. Most of my good friends on DV though, are guys. I think almost all of them are actually xD But in real life, basically my only friends are girls (not talking about fake, "friendships", I mean legitimate friends, it's like 3 people). It just all depends with where you are I guess, most of the girls I know in real life are bitches, excluding my friends, they are very caring, genuine people. And most all of the guys I know in real life are dicks.

[Arra]

Yet women don't have to be automatically lesbian to be attracted to other women sexually, in our society. Is it not true though that straight women often experience attraction toward other women? Is it just our society? As far as I know, most men naturally can't really experience sexual attraction toward other men. Mmm, yeah I agree. I don't really seem to do this that often, but I know I do it. If I'm playing a game online and it's all guys, I never use my headset, but if there's a girl in it, I might, because I don't want to be the center of attention in the game, so I think it's cool if there are other chicks playing it Another thing is, a lot of women try to look good (dress up, makeup, etc.) for other women, to try and "out do them" or whatever. I personally think it's stupid >_> but i've noticed it a lot. I used to have a lot of guy friends, but not really any more. Most of my good friends on DV though, are guys. I think almost all of them are actually xD But in real life, basically my only friends are girls (not talking about fake, "friendships", I mean legitimate friends, it's like 3 people). It just all depends with where you are I guess, most of the girls I know in real life are bitches, excluding my friends, they are very caring, genuine people. And most all of the guys I know in real life are dicks. I agree with this. Online games can be especially bad, and I also often refuse to talk with my headset around people I don't know, for a few reasons resulting from being female. Some guys are cool about it, but quite often I get one of the following. 1) Everyone starts talking differently, more politely, because they now know there's a girl listening to them. They treat me with annoying fake niceness. 2) "Hey, you're a girl. We have a girl gamer here!" [I make some mistake] "Damn female gamers..." [I make some extreme successful move against the other team] "Hey guys, you just got pwned by a girl. That's pretty pathetic!" 3) Sexual remarks The few people I befriend tend to be male too. I think it's mostly for the reasons mentioned in this thread. The feeling of 'competition' in terms of attracting the opposite sex isn't there anymore while interacting with a male, so it's easier to relax and 'be myself'. That might sound odd, like it should be the opposite. It reminds me of the phenomenon that people are more likely to be jealous of others who have slightly more than them, than a lot more than them. For example, you might be jealous of your neighbour who earns more money than you do, but you aren't going to be jealous of the queen of England. I feel like going on a tangent about the recent idea in society that anyone can do anything and the extreme stress that causes... but I won't. And yeah, I don't know if guys realise it, but girls do try to make themselves more attractive to induce envy in other females, as much as they do to attract males, perhaps moreso.

[Burke]

Though I'm only 17 and still in school I have noticed a large amount of hate between females. Most men you see together are just messing with each other. Sure, they tease each other and make fun of each other, but they take little to none of it to heart. Women, on the other hand, as far as I have seen, seem to take any comment given to them more deeply, and if it's derogative then it only increases how much they think about it. I'm not trying to be sexist or anything and I'm sorry if I come off as it, but it seems to me that, due to women's often emotional mindsets, they take more things to heart and are more likely to come back with en equally, if not more insulting comment. The same goes for positive comments. Most guys, if one compliments they other's, say, hair, then they will shrug it off as if nothing happened. Women, however tend to take it more seriously, and if you comment on them they will either not believe you, or think of any way they can further improve themselves. I'm in our school's jazz band and I stand next to a friend of mine who happens to be female. Often times she will tell me how much she hates this other girl in the band. I don't really know how to reply and often just shake my head in agreement. To the other side of me, however, is one of my best friends, who's a guy. He is more emotional than most men, but he never tells me how much he hates someone. Sure, he'll say "so and so is so annoying," or, "so and so is an idiot," but he never sounds serious. Please, don't take this as derogative in any way, nor sexist in anyway, as I'm not trying to give that connotation. I'm simply stating some things I've observed and a possible hypothesis for it. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Edit: On a somewhat side note, each gender competes to be the "most attractive." There is naturally some hate to another who is more attractive than oneself and one will always strive to be better than others. Hence the term "envy." When you see somebody who is better than you at anything you will always be a little bit jealous so you will be more likely to be found a more suitable mate. It is not as prevalent in modern society as it was in our more primal ancestry, but it still plays a part in social life and is always present.

[Arra]

I agree with most of what you've said. In general, of course. People can choose to change themselves. You really didn't need to appologise for possibly appearing sexist at all. Making observations shouldn't be considered sexist, and if someone interprets it in that way then that's their problem.

[Puffin]

I think most girls act like what you've described, Burke, but I'm one of those people who doesn't care about seeing who looks better or more attractive. Sure, I might make a small comparison or mental comment to myself about someone but I don't make it into a game or dwell on it. I find myself pretty average, maybe a bit above in terms of attractiveness, and maybe that's why. People who think like me also couldn't care less about comparing themselves to other people. Dianeva and Erii, I think you guys share the same attitude as me. I find that it's the less (for lack of a better word, pardon me if this comes across as offensive) intellectual girls who tend to do more comparing and bitching/moaning about others. A lot of us here on DV are more open-minded and can interpret and think about things further than many people, so that's my guess as to why we're more relaxed in terms of social comparisons and other stuff. I also hate the stereotypes in general associated with being female. It's as if it's "weird' to be a gamer, and "in" to be obsessed with celebrities and stuff. I couldn't give a fuck whether people make fun of me for gaming, which -has- happened in the past. I don't even care if I'm playing CoD and I'm in a party full of guys; none of them makes a comment and it's as if they don't mind. I definitely feel more included when I'm with guys, just because of the way they behave. And speaking of guys... from what I've seen, it doesn't seem like one's personal interests are that much of a problem to them; there is more leeway in terms of choosing, and showing people, what you enjoy doing. I'm 17, for anyone's reference.

[DeletePlease]

Is it not true though that straight women often experience attraction toward other women? Is it just our society? As far as I know, most men naturally can't really experience sexual attraction toward other men. Mainly because society says it's ok for women to do so, but it's still frowned upon when it comes to guys. If it wasn't for the social stigma, I'm sure guys would eventually start being as open about it as women are. Give it a few decades and we'll get there. Maybe.

[Oneironaut Zero]

I just want to make a note here: This is very, very obvious to most guys who have a clue. It's called 'cattiness', and it's a major turn-off to some guys.

[DeeryTheDeer]

Mainly because society says it's ok for women to do so, but it's still frowned upon when it comes to guys. If it wasn't for the social stigma, I'm sure guys would eventually start being as open about it as women are. Give it a few decades and we'll get there. Maybe. Yeah, I'm continuously annoyed by the media that always shows comedy of guys squeaming and insisting "no, NO, I'm definitely not gay in any way, I'm a MAN", "I love you man, no homo", "Bromance" and all that bullshit.

[Darkmatters]

Yeah, it's a very harsh stigma guys have to carry. Masculinity is very fragile and must be maintained rigorously at all times or the guy loses his status. It's the male way of comparing ourselves. And like females, when you're not in the top tier or even second tier of competition it ceases to be so important. About females who are more 'intellectual' - it's the general consensus of society that they become intellectual because they weren't sexually attractive or competitive enough to win a spot near the front lines so they fell back on intellectualism instead. Like the perception of male 'nerds'. I'm not saying that's true, just that it's the general perception. Which book was it where Carl Sagan presented all the studies of testosterone in animal behavior? Extremely enlightening. The ones who have it in abundance become stupid, mean and aggressive and spend all their time keeping their females in line and strutting around maintaining their superiority over those males who have less. Here it is - Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (On Google Books): http://books.google.com/books?id=MRn...page&q&f=false I just found this link and posted it here - I don't know if this is exactly the part I was talking about but from a quick scan it seems at last closely related.

[tommo]

Guys do the same thing, we judge each other's looks too when we walk by or meet someone new. It's entirely natural, and comes from evolution. We are subconsciously sizing up mating competition, you are doing the same thing. But don't worry, I've seen pictures of you, you are very attractive I gotta say, I rarely do it. I definitely don't go along sizing up guys. Girls yes, like every one I lay eyes on, I judge whether she's hot or not. The only time I've ever judged a guys hotness is if he's particularly attractive. And I'll be like "Fucken asshole, bet he gets laid so much, whatta lucky dickhead". But generally I do not do what the OP says, with guys.