Thread: message to lucifers followers

That is of course possible. I always tend to assume everyone else means what they say, which I know is a naive assumption at times given how many people do not. Well, all I know is that I am not a troll, but you just have my word for that of course.

I really think that there has been a fundamentalist imposter troll posting on this site for years, using different accounts. The character who inspired the creation of this forum by getting things so heated in the philosophy forum was Awaken4e1. He was here for a little while in 2005 and then went away, but other characters came later. Their eras did not overlap. We had Keeper, Jeremysr, and Noogah for time periods on here, and all of them said stuff that made atheists' jaws drop and got them way into arguing back. I think there is a high likelihood that they are all the same person.

I am such a cynic that I think about half of the people I argue with on the internet are trolls. I still like to debate them because I like debate. It's a game like anything else. I also know that there are people who agree with what they are saying, and I am presenting my view to those people. Also, the Religion/Spirituality forum is a million times more fun when seeming fundamentalists are posting off the wall stuff. This forum was dead until Knight came here (again?).

We should place bets. I think knight31's Armenian or possibly American but with a fascination of Armenian ancestry. If it's the former, he's probably a particularly deranged orthodox christian. If he's the latter, it seems the evangelicals and baptists are the most the likely to make up their own contradictory and insane version of christianity that enflates their egos.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I really think that there has been a fundamentalist imposter troll posting on this site for years, using different accounts. The character who inspired the creation of this forum by getting things so heated in the philosophy forum was Awaken4e1. He was here for a little while in 2005 and then went away, but other characters came later. Their eras did not overlap. We had Keeper, Jeremysr, and Noogah for time periods on here, and all of them said stuff that made atheists' jaws drop and got them way into arguing back. I think there is a high likelihood that they are all the same person.

I am such a cynic that I think about half of the people I argue with on the internet are trolls. I still like to debate them because I like debate. It's a game like anything else. I also know that there are people who agree with what they are saying, and I am presenting my view to those people. Also, the Religion/Spirituality forum is a million times more fun when seeming fundamentalists are posting off the wall stuff. This forum was dead until Knight came here (again?).

Why not take that idea a step further: Shall we assume then that there is also a fundamentalist atheist troll, who says that having faith means that one is a moron, and that emotions should never trump reason, and that science and philosophy and reason prove that there is no God without any doubt, and that everyone should agree or else? In fact I would argue that closed-mindedness on both sides of the theist and atheist spectrum is more similar to each other.

If we were to think that there is one fundamentalist Christian troll, why not instead assume a fundamentalist closed-minded troll, who switches between "religion disproves science" and "science disproves religion." both are equally insulting to open minded people of the other side, and both are equally closed minded without allowing for the possibility of troll being wrong.

[QUOTE=Universal Mind;2015794]Your answers are always long but not very direct. Let me see if I can sum up your responses to my questions.

Is God infinitely powerful?

Your position: Yes, but there are rules of reality that God has to follow because his power is limited.

if you go back and read I never said that. Are you making it up just to pretend what I said? Gods will is the rules. But they arn't limited.

What does that mean?

Your position: I don't know.

So because you don't understand what i just said, You will just say that I dont know. Good one.

So, when innocent people are beaten up, made fun of, or in an eternal fire, Jesus isn't watching?

Your position: Jesus is watching, but Jesus will not let what is happening happen although it is happening.

if that was my position then I would intellectually disabled. I clearly stated god gives everyone according to their deeds.

I don't really understand your earlier response about why Heaven's current angels can be trusted now that Lucifer and his other fallen angels are full blown psycho. Is your answer just that it is unlikely that the current angels of Heaven will go psycho?

Are you joking me? My answer was clearly that if they do wrong, they will also be cast out of heaven like the others. Is that difficult?

Your position: Heaven's current angels could possibly go psycho.

There's more chance of you going psycho, than there is of an Angel going psycho.

Please very briefly sum up corrections for each one, if there are corrections to be made. If you want to elaborate, please do it after giving a very brief corrections. I want to make this crystal clear. Thanks.

now the only question left in laymens terms is how do we get to Sesame Street

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Which denomination of Christianity are you, knight31? You never said or I missed it, but your positions are certainly not representative of all of Christianity. I can tell that you are not Catholic, Episcopalian, or Lutheran. Your statement that Jesus did what God told him surprised me especially because I believe Jesus is God incarnate, so he is not listening to an external entity to tell him what to do.

He had the holy spirit in him, and he was one with the father. But he was incarnated as a man and known as gods son. He was no exception in that he still followed gods will. So he listened to god and did what god wanted. I don't sound like Christians you know because I'm not quoting scripture at the moment maybe. Or that I can explain it better than most Christians. I'm conservative original christian the type that is not corrupted.

Originally Posted by knight31

now the only question left in laymens terms is how do we get to Sesame Street

I'm not sure who's more obsessed with this Lucifer guy, the "Lucifer followers" knight31 chastises or knight himself.

Originally Posted by anderj101

Thanks, now you go there. and learn to read the bible lol

Originally Posted by Original Poster

We should place bets. I think knight31's Armenian or possibly American but with a fascination of Armenian ancestry. If it's the former, he's probably a particularly deranged orthodox christian. If he's the latter, it seems the evangelicals and baptists are the most the likely to make up their own contradictory and insane version of christianity that enflates their egos.

what I say fits exactly with whats in the bible, so it's not insane. And if I am wrong I expect to be corrected.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Why not take that idea a step further: Shall we assume then that there is also a fundamentalist atheist troll, who says that having faith means that one is a moron, and that emotions should never trump reason, and that science and philosophy and reason prove that there is no God without any doubt, and that everyone should agree or else? In fact I would argue that closed-mindedness on both sides of the theist and atheist spectrum is more similar to each other.

If we were to think that there is one fundamentalist Christian troll, why not instead assume a fundamentalist closed-minded troll, who switches between "religion disproves science" and "science disproves religion." both are equally insulting to open minded people of the other side, and both are equally closed minded without allowing for the possibility of troll being wrong.

Would you say that view is logical? If so, how is that relevant?

What atheists here fit the characteristics I explained concerning the fundamentalist characters?

Originally Posted by knight31

Is God infinitely powerful?

if you go back and read I never said that. Are you making it up just to pretend what I said? Gods will is the rules. But they arn't limited.

You said that God's infinite power cannot be understood, which implies that he has infinite power. Then you discussed what God "has to" do, which implies that he has to work within limitations.

Originally Posted by knight31

So because you don't understand what i just said, You will just say that I dont know. Good one.

You said that God's infinite power cannot be understood by people.

Originally Posted by knight31

if that was my position then I would intellectually disabled. I clearly stated god gives everyone according to their deeds.

You said that Jesus would not watch somebody being made fun of or abused and let it happen, yet it is stuff that happens. So, uh, doesn't that mean that Jesus would let it happen?

Originally Posted by knight31

Are you joking me? My answer was clearly that if they do wrong, they will also be cast out of heaven like the others. Is that difficult?

Does that mean we can trust them not to go psycho? Satan and lots of other angels did it, in the Bible. So, is it possible for other angels to do it? Yes or no?

Originally Posted by knight31

There's more chance of you going psycho, than there is of an Angel going psycho.

Oh, so an angel has less chance of going psycho than a human. Wow, that says a lot. Let's all make a big deal of angels now.

Originally Posted by knight31

now the only question left in laymens terms is how do we get to Sesame Street

Through Oscar, if you don't want to spend eternity in a trash can.

Originally Posted by knight31

Are you sure that's not just referring to the atmosphere of earth being the dome that seperates from space? and beneath the earth crust, and above the earth, the waters. Eg, the oceans on the surface of the earth run into the center of the earth and middle of earth.

I don't see your interpretation as making any sense. It doesn't say about outer space as having water. And it doesn't say anything about opened windows that the angels open to let water in. I don't know where you got that idea.

Yes I am sure they are not referring to the atmosphere. It clearly says that the firmament divides the water, and that there is water above it and below it. Below is clearly the seas and rivers and above it a reference to the heavens which they believe was physically above them. Even if they meant the atmosphere what is above the atmosphere? Outer space.

The bible doesn't actually go into detail about what the firmament is, but people at the time knew it and there are a great many references to it at the time. I don't believe the part about the angels is in the bible but it comes from one other reference materials.

I suggest looking into what firmament is. I am sure there is some debate on what they meant but it is widely understood and accepted that no matter the form you are talking about, it is a reference to an actual solid tangible object that spanned the sky and separated us from what was above. Clearly such a thing does not exist and the bible is wrong. People at that time believe such things and so wrote it in the bible, and it was just wrong. I don't see how anyone can not accept that.

The bible never says the date that adam and eve were even alive. So you don't even have a date to compare the fossils to.

What's this big jumping of conclusions from not knowing to saying adam and eve were created exactly 6000 years ago? How do you know it was 2000 years before abraham and how do you know when abraham existed. Be more specific. I highly doubt you will have sufficient evidence to identify adam and eve and the date they were born. You think my beliefs are based on nothing what kind of assumption are you making here to say you can pinpoint the date of adam and eve.

I am not jumping to any conclusions, that is the number the all the scholars who have studied the bibles for years say. They came to that conclusions by using the dates given in the bible. You could do it your self if you don't believe me but it is kind of a pain in a butt. Here is an example from the bible though.

6: And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7: And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8: And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9: And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10: And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11: And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

The bible goes on and on describing stuff like that, for pages and pages and that is how they got the dates for the age of the earth. The bible claims to trace Jesus blood line from the date he was born all the way back to Adam and it gives dates for it all. So the bible actually does make a claim when the earth was created and a claim when the first human was created and it is totally wrong. It isn't even remotely close. The bible gives exact dates which are easily proven wrong, because if the dates were true the first human appeared on earth thousands of years ago when we can prove it was millions of years ago and the earth was created billions of years ago. The bible is just plain wrong.

So no, I am not making it up, it is in the bible.

if you have massive polar ice that is floating above the water and it melts, that would result in higher sea levels, in addition the land doesn't have to even flood at all for it to be submerged in water. All that needs to happen is the crush of the earth sink below sea level and new crush from below the ocean rise. That would have the same effect as a great flood. We already know that the crush on the earth has changed and drifted, and that some parts that are above water now use to be under water. And same parts under water before are now above. It's not hard to imagine how the crust of the earth can change, especially with major earthquakes and the like.

First off, no that is incorrect. If you have ice floating in water and it melts, the water level doesn't change. You could easily test this by putting an ice cube in a glass of water, wait for it to melt and you will see the water level is unchanged. Only ice that is on land, that melts and runs off into the sea would increase the water level.

Secondly your idea doesn't make any sense because changes to the surface of the earth takes millions, and billions of years. The flood story clearly states that it rained and the rain caused the flood and it was in a relatively short time period. You are just grasping at straws here. Even if what you said was true, and it would be physically impossible for what you said to happen, but even if it was true then that would still disprove the bible. The bible doesn't say the earth shook and the ground sank into the sea. That isn't the story at all, and so your theory wouldn't even fit.

Also, the flood story is just a story stolen from other religions prior to it. In fact many of the bible stories are stolen from other stories written prior to it, and their details changed slightly so they could claim it as a biblical event, when originally other gods did it. I am curious what you think about the fact that the bible has stories that are ripped off of stories written hundreds of years before it. They changed the names and called it a new story but if you read stuff like the epic of Gilgamesh, you can tell the bible ripped off the flood story and a few others.

Do you know how many miles of desert there is, and even if you did find a pot it would be burried by now, and even if you dug it up, how would you identify that it was from the people of moses. you could literally dig anything up and say anything about it. I'm sure there is plenty of artifacts to be found in the desert, but are you going to go out and search for them, even when you find them how you going to say its from moses. They have more than a pot in the sand anyway. You already have giant massive pyramids built. That's pretty obvious isnt it? they built it so big that you couldn't miss it if you tried. and the story of it is all written on the walls carved in stone. and you are complaining that there is no pots in the sand?

People can and do search the desert all the time and small villages with hundreds of people in them have been found, and ancient trade routes have been found. All sorts of stuff have been found, and there is many ways to date things to find when they came from. Though hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people wandered around, and there isn't any evidence at all? No records at all? Not a single person thought to write down that they passed a million people just wandering aimlessly around the desert?

Well you need to provide an example. And even if you did, that's not to say that it didn't exist just because you can't link anything to it's existence. It could be a number of reasons why you don't find evidence of something.

Yea and the simple reason is because they never existed. I would grant that some things can be lost and that happens, but most stuff in the bible doesn't have any evidence of ever exiting. It is filled with questionable and unlikely situation and there is nothing to back it up, and there is actually evidence to refute a great deal of it.

He lost his mortal life on earth. That's a big a sacrifice as you can make. You don't even believe in a soul so what you talking about? If ending your life doesnt count as a sacrifice what counts as a sacrifice in your eyes? Explain.

No he didn't. Jesus came back to life. He did not give up his mortal life because he came back to life. Physically he was alive. If he was a physical living human being, then obviously he didn't give up his mortal life did he? His resurrection is a key part of the story, and if he came back to life then he didn't sacrifice anything.

He didn't do it for fame because he was hated and put to death. That's not exactly a way to be a rockstar is it? Ofcourse his life had value to him. Does your life have value to you? He already had eternal life, so he didn't do it for that reason. As for worship it looks like I am the only one here doing that. Just about everyone that replies is against me if you haven't noticed. So it's not for worship. In fact he said beforehand that don't be surprised when the world hates you, because it hated me first. Is that worship?

Regardless of what you claim his goal were, it is clear he got a huge amount of fame from it. If a person was going to die any way, then why not go out big and be remembered and worshiped for the rest of times? People do it all the time. People like to be immortalized in books and stories and for things like that. Becoming a martyr for ever lasting fame is very human thing.

So you are saying that we shouldn't be kind to anyone, because we get something out of it and that's selfish? What kind of twisted logic is that? Ofcourse you get things out of being kind, you get the satisfaction that you are not degraded.

I never said that we shouldn't be kind to people. It just isn't a sacrifice if you do it for personal benefit. That is just the definition of the word. Jesus didn't sacrifice anything.

Well god is with you, that's why it doesn't seem so bad. Earth at this time is not even comparable to the glory of heaven. If you went to heaven now, you would be very sad if you had to come back here. In the last days or what they call the tribulation, which is coming soon, you might change your mind about earth being not such a bad place. If god doesn't save you in those days, it's going to be hell. I don't say that in a threatening way, because I'm hoping he will save you.

How could I be happy in a place that refuses to accept my friends and family and the people I love? If I go to heaven and I am extremely happy despite the fact that my friends and family are in hell, what would that mean? What happens in heaven that would make me become so heartless and uncaring towards the ones I used to love that I would abandon and forget about them?

When people say stuff like you did, it sounds like people going to heaven experience a full frontal lobotomy in which their personality is destroyed and they are placed in an unthinking blissed out state that is frankly unnatural and scary to me. I don't want to live in a place that is the equivalent of shooting up heroine that makes me feel good but shuts down my capability of thinking. That is a living nightmare.

If I retain the ability to think, and I know people I care for, good honest people are suffering, how can I be eternally happy? I can't. I don't believe in heaven but even if I did I know it is a lie. Either my personality would be destroyed, or I would be unhappy there. There is no way for my personality to remain intact and for me to be happy knowing others are suffering.

The revelations arn't clear yet because they are not meant to be unlocked until a certain time passes. When conflict with Israel starts to heat up. The revelations will be unlocked and will be more understandable.

That is just an excuse to let vague gibberish pass off as a valid piece of work. Any one can say something vague and claim in the future it will come true. Without any evidence of anything being true I don't believe it.

[QUOTE=Universal Mind;2015997]
You said that God's infinite power cannot be understood by people.[quote]

In mathematics you can't understand what infinity is but you still know infinity exists. Just because someone is not able to understand something doesn't mean it isn't there.

You said that Jesus would not watch somebody being made fun of or abused and let it happen, yet it is stuff that happens. So, uh, doesn't that mean that Jesus would let it happen?

perhaps I didn't state it in clear enough terms. If Jesus was beside you, he would not make fun of you or abuse you because that's not what we were told to do to others. Does it happen in the world? Yeah, but people have free will, If you do something of your own accord you can't blame god when it's your decision.
That would be like going up to a random christian in the street and punching them in the face and saying, god did it. Not only is that inappropriate, it doesn't make sense from the christian perspective. It only sometimes makes sense to the atheists perspective, but it's foolish.

Does that mean we can trust them not to go psycho? Satan and lots of other angels did it, in the Bible. So, is it possible for other angels to do it? Yes or no?

About a third of the Angels rebelled, I think the rest of the Angels are going to stick with god, since they already fought the others that rebelled and defeated them. Would you fight the Nazis in world war two, then when they lose you decide you are a Nazi afterall and then join them even after you defeated them? You are right that is pretty psycho and I'd say highly unlikely.

Despite that even if all of the Angels rebelled, there isn't a problem god wouldn't be able to solve he created the Angels, what makes you think he couldn't create more Angels?

Oh, so an angel has less chance of going psycho than a human. Wow, that says a lot. Let's all make a big deal of angels now.

I really don't know about the exact probability of an angel going crazy and rebelling because free will exists. But when you are in heaven, it's more likely you want to stay in heaven with god, then come back down here. Angels are not of the same type as humans. They can do superhuman things and have cognitive functions and ability of wisdom beyond our understanding. That's how the ones cast down here have deceived the world. So I based my statement mostly on that they are with god and are Angels. However in this society with satan around, humans are far more vulnerable to mental health problems as you probably know having a degree in psychology.

Through Oscar, if you don't want to spend eternity in a trash can.

Or wisdom through the conclusions of an atheist.

Why do bad things happen to good people? That's a very complex question, and personally I think it is oversimplifying it to claim that they all deserve what they get (forgive me if I misunderstood you, and that is not what you were saying after all). There are lots of people who encounter trials in their lives that are harder than they should get justly. The story of Job suggests that part of the reason is so that people learn humility. We are a proud people who think we deserve a good life. Surrendering one's pride and accepting that life is not fair and we do not "deserve" anything is a hard lesson. Why do some people get that lesson shoved down their throats in a brutal way while others can continue to live under the illusion that they have all the luck in the world because they deserve it? I do not have a simple answer for that.

Edit: Your answer to my question about your denomination worries me. Are you part of any Christian community? Christianity is a religion in which community is essential: we need community to help us discuss out beliefs with other believers, to help us realize when our beliefs stray from God's will, and for many other reasons. There are too many psychos out there who claim to know the will of God and they believe it. I am not saying that you are necessarily a psycho. I am saying that one cannot be a Christian outside of community.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

I do not worship the bible, and I do not believe it is the direct word of God. I do worship God, however. And I believe the bible is a collection of allegorical stories and eyewitness accounts (or unfortunately more often accounts of oral tradition passed on from teachers to students and written down only later) of varying degrees of reliability written by humans who had their own biases and agendas, and who at times got some things right and some things wrong. However, the fact that I do not particularly agree with St. Paul's political agenda does not mean that I believe that he got the message all wrong but just that he twisted it at times because he was a flawed human being.

I do believe in God, the Creator, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and that they are one and the same. I do not believe that we have any 100% accurate account of what Jesus was really like because all accounts were written by humans and were written years after Jesus' death for specific audiences with the author's agenda etc.

So just because I do not believe the bible to be literal, I still do believe that it has truth in it. I have some thoughts on what is true and what is not in the bible, and I know that some of my thoughts are most likely incorrect because I am a flawed human with my own biases, of course.

See, some people think that the world is black and white, and that you either believe everything in the bible or nothing. My belief system is shades of grey, of faith and doubt, of questions leading to answers leading to more questions. Some of my beliefs are firmer than others, and their firmness varies from day to day as I grow spiritually and reexamine my beliefs.

Ps: even if all you get out of my posts here is that not all Christians are fundamentalists, and should not be lumped together, I will be glad. Not as lofty a goal as "saving souls" but a more moderate goal of hopefully clearing up a misconception for some people.

I heard in Bible study in 1980 this.

When God first created the perfect Earth he... lets have a look ...

Which Bible shall I use? umm "NLT"

Genesis 1: (verse 1) - In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. (verse 2) - The earth was empty, a formless mass cloaked in darkness and the Spirit of God was hovering (brooding) over its surface. (verse 3) - Then God said,

"Let there be light"

and there was light. (verse 4) And God saw that it was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness . (verse 5) God called the light "day" and the darkness "night" .Together these made up one day.

Reader, there is no sun, moon or stars, yet.

so

there is no way of measuring the length of time of what god called the very first "one day".

Genesis 1: (verse 6) - And God said said,

"Let there be space between the waters, to separated water from water."

(verse 7) - And it was so. (...)

This was a magnificent and perfect creation. He made many, many humans and the humans ate only the billions of species of fruit in this perfect creation. (1v29)

"All" the animals in this perfect creation only ate grass and other green vegetation. (1v30)

Until the Mythical "Flood" it NEVER rained. A mist rose from the ground before dawn and watered the Earth.

There were masses of unseen, subterranean waters.

and

surrounding the high-atmosphere, was a protective waterbarrier. This band of water vaper protected ALL life on Earth and nothing grew old or died.

After the "fall" humans and animals and plants became mortal. But humans and animals still lived more than 10 times longer than after the mythical flood.

why?

Because the "waters of the great deep were brocken-up"

(meaning that the subterranean water under the earth contributed to the mythical flood),

Also, God destroyed the planet's protective water canopy. The canopy took 40 days and 40 nights to become exhaust.

After we lost that protective water canopy, the suns deadly UV RAYS cut the life spans of every living thing down to almost nothing.

Where did all that water go?

Mythically... Where do you think the over-abundance of oceans came from?

Mythically, The original, perfect creation had immortal life on it. And was big enough to house and feed that life. There were no great expances of infertile land and the seas were tiny before the Mythical flood.

I keep saying "mythical" because originally there were no predators, no meat-eating animals. So no Dinosaurs.That is impossible to imagine.

Lots of silly Christians don't notice this verse ...

Genesis 1 verse 30

"And I have given all the grasses| and other green plants to the animals and birds for food." And so it was.

v31 - And God looked over all He had made, and He saw it was [u]excellent in every way[/b]. This all happened on the 6th day.

In Genesis Chapter 2 God seems to do a (kind-of) second creation where everything goes wrong. It only goes wrong when he puts Adam into a deep sleep.

Some folk point out that God never actually awakens Adam. This indicates that "We" are all living in Adams dream (or nightmare)

Originally Posted by Alric

Yes I am sure they are not referring to the atmosphere. It clearly says that the firmament divides the water, and that there is water above it and below it. Below is clearly the seas and rivers and above it a reference to the heavens which they believe was physically above them. Even if they meant the atmosphere what is above the atmosphere? Outer space.

I'm suppose to be working right now instead of replying here and you are repeating yourself a bit.
I previously stated that firmament refereed to water above the earth surface and beneath the earth. It makes no sense to assume they were talking about outer space.

I am not jumping to any conclusions, that is the number the all the scholars who have studied the bibles for years say. They came to that conclusions by using the dates given in the bible. You could do it your self if you don't believe me but it is kind of a pain in a butt. Here is an example from the bible though.

6: And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7: And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8: And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9: And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10: And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11: And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

The bible goes on and on describing stuff like that, for pages and pages and that is how they got the dates for the age of the earth. The bible claims to trace Jesus blood line from the date he was born all the way back to Adam and it gives dates for it all. So the bible actually does make a claim when the earth was created and a claim when the first human was created and it is totally wrong. It isn't even remotely close. The bible gives exact dates which are easily proven wrong, because if the dates were true the first human appeared on earth thousands of years ago when we can prove it was millions of years ago and the earth was created billions of years ago. The bible is just plain wrong.

I haven't tried to calculate it myself, but soon as there is a gap in the data, you no longer have the data to do the mathematics of it.
I highly doubt have all the data for that going back to adam and eve. It reminds me of scientists trying to piece together bones of how we evolved, they always claim to have found the answer but it never makes sense or fits together correctly. Not only that you are relying on a calender system that did not exist in the time of adam and eve. You are assuming that time has always been experienced or measured in the same way, studying history, that's not true. So you have problems on top of problems in making your wild estimate, that you just don't have the ability to solve right now.

First off, no that is incorrect. If you have ice floating in water and it melts, the water level doesn't change. You could easily test this by putting an ice cube in a glass of water, wait for it to melt and you will see the water level is unchanged. Only ice that is on land, that melts and runs off into the sea would increase the water level.

There is lots of ice on the land, and it's common knowledge that melting ice in polar region in a concern for rising sea levels, and it's not the same as a floating ice cube.

Secondly your idea doesn't make any sense because changes to the surface of the earth takes millions, and billions of years. The flood story clearly states that it rained and the rain caused the flood and it was in a relatively short time period. You are just grasping at straws here.

A couple of large earthquakes can make mountains and move the land all around in a short time. The crust of the earth can and has sunk before, and other crust has come out of the ocean. There is archaeological evidence of it. It's the kind of thing you materialist run around trying to cover up, so no-one will know lol. You said it was impossible I was giving you a larger perspective of how it is possible. I'm not even ruling out that god made it rain just because he wanted do, or just did it because he decided to. The weather has changed again today and they calling it global warming and they haven't being able to understand it enough to predict it, not even close. This is where you atheists always get stuck because your faith is based on limitations. Everything has to have a limit for you. You can't do this because of that. impossibility is your main concern. That's why you are saying my beliefs are impossible, because that's what your faith is all about focusing on that.

Also, the flood story is just a story stolen from other religions prior to it. In fact many of the bible stories are stolen from other stories written prior to it, and their details changed slightly so they could claim it as a biblical event, when originally other gods did it. I am curious what you think about the fact that the bible has stories that are ripped off of stories written hundreds of years before it. They changed the names and called it a new story but if you read stuff like the epic of Gilgamesh, you can tell the bible ripped off the flood story and a few others.

Instead of assuming the story is fake right away, firstly be reasonable and consider what you are talking about. You say many other stories but you are not specific.
I don't know what gilgamesh is but it doesn't prove they copied the story. That's like saying Australia copied America because they both have buildings that people like in. it's ridiculous. Yet that's not the reason why they both have buildings. If the other story speaks of a flood, there is many stories of floods.

People can and do search the desert all the time and small villages with hundreds of people in them have been found, and ancient trade routes have been found. All sorts of stuff have been found, and there is many ways to date things to find when they came from. Though hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people wandered around, and there isn't any evidence at all? No records at all? Not a single person thought to write down that they passed a million people just wandering aimlessly around the desert?

It was written down, that's why you even know about it. I know and I said that people do find things. Some of the things found probably was from them. It's difficult to discuss with you if you just say lots of things found, but nothing of the people from Moses. You have to be specific and tell me how you think you know that or how you came to that reasoning. I could say that there is no evidence that I went to a beach party, since I tell you no information about the beach party, you can hardly discuss the evidence of it.

It is filled with questionable and unlikely situation and there is nothing to back it up, and there is actually evidence to refute a great deal of it.

You are being very vague which starts to sound like you have no information on what you are talking about.
It's not really questionable at all. If our civilization got destroyed from climatic earth changes. Thousands of years later humans would start a new culture from scratch when this culture and society started to rebuild, and herd stories of 'planes', they wouldn't be able to understand what planes was a reference to, and instead of conclusion that they were flying metal machines, they might conclude that it's a spiritual plane of the mind that they use. because planes also refers to levels of existence spiritually. And because they would be in an entirely difficult cultural setting, and they would make wrong conclusions about it, based on their culture. They would mis-interpret some things which is definitely what you do with the bible.

No he didn't. Jesus came back to life. He did not give up his mortal life because he came back to life. Physically he was alive. If he was a physical living human being, then obviously he didn't give up his mortal life did he? His resurrection is a key part of the story, and if he came back to life then he didn't sacrifice anything.

He was dead for 3 days then he came back from being dead. Just because we are eternal doesn't mean we can't make sacrifices. I'm not sure why you think a sacrifice isn't possible. lots of people sacrifice their time at work every day to pay the bills. Just because they are getting something back doesn't mean it's not a sacrifice. I'm sure they would like the extra time than to be working.

Regardless of what you claim his goal were, it is clear he got a huge amount of fame from it. If a person was going to die any way, then why not go out big and be remembered and worshiped for the rest of times? People do it all the time. People like to be immortalized in books and stories and for things like that. Becoming a martyr for ever lasting fame is very human thing.

But that's not why he said he was doing it. You can't accuse people of the motivations behind their actions. Especially if they did it 2000 years ago and claim something entirely different to what you say about them. You are basically calling Jesus a liar. Not only is it not sensible, it's also insulting.

I never said that we shouldn't be kind to people. It just isn't a sacrifice if you do it for personal benefit. That is just the definition of the word. Jesus didn't sacrifice anything.

What's your example of a proper sacrifice? because Jesus is the best example of it that there is.

How could I be happy in a place that refuses to accept my friends and family and the people I love? If I go to heaven and I am extremely happy despite the fact that my friends and family are in hell, what would that mean? What happens in heaven that would make me become so heartless and uncaring towards the ones I used to love that I would abandon and forget about them?

If you love one another, then that's the whole point of it in the first place. So you wouldn't be in hell with them anyway. And it wouldn't make sense for one to be in hell and the other not. If the other person has love for you, they will be there. If they didn't have any love for you and only purely hated you, then it's likely you won't mind if they are not in heaven.

When people say stuff like you did, it sounds like people going to heaven experience a full frontal lobotomy in which their personality is destroyed and they are placed in an unthinking blissed out state that is frankly unnatural and scary to me. I don't want to live in a place that is the equivalent of shooting up heroine that makes me feel good but shuts down my capability of thinking. That is a living nightmare.

It sounds like you are afraid that you won't be able to be sinful. But someone that is wise is more afraid of god than losing their sins.

If I retain the ability to think, and I know people I care for, good honest people are suffering, how can I be eternally happy? I can't. I don't believe in heaven but even if I did I know it is a lie. Either my personality would be destroyed, or I would be unhappy there. There is no way for my personality to remain intact and for me to be happy knowing others are suffering.

This life on earth will put you through suffering, but that is for a good reason. Because when you die, if you have impurity in you, that will be purged from you before you can go into heaven. And if you have a lot of impurity, you are going to be getting purged for a long time and it's not in small bits with no pressure like on earth. Cause you won't have a body it's all going to come upon you at once and you will feel the weight of it burn off. You can't offset it like on earth here. The suffering on earth is suppose to help get rid of it so you don't have to go through so much when you pass on. If you spend you life indulging in immoral things being materialistic and all the rest of it, you are setting yourself up for total failure and you won't be able to rectify it once you have passed on. The only thing left to do at that point is purge everything from you to be able to exist in heaven. (it's impossible to be immoral or impure in heaven, that wouldn't make sense) and if that destroys your personality and your soul, that's what the bible warns about, and that's what people talk about with the lake of fire. but I admit the lake of fire analogy has being misused to manipulate people, which is in itself a sin.

That is just an excuse to let vague gibberish pass off as a valid piece of work. Any one can say something vague and claim in the future it will come true. Without any evidence of anything being true I don't believe it.

The bible is the only book that accurately fortold of the birth of Jesus and his sacrifice before it happened, and the only book that fortold of the reconstruction of Israel before it happened, you can safely assume that it's the word of god, and that's it's revelations are coming to pass.

[quote]there is no way of measuring the length of time of what god called the very first "one day".[quote]

You are taking your idea of measuring time from today in this society, to way back then before the earth was or stars were even created. That's not very smart.
(one day) would translate to refer to the first part of his work that is being described. Not one 24 hour day from a digital watch on earth type of day.

Until the Mythical "Flood" it NEVER rained. A mist rose from the ground before dawn and watered the Earth.

The weather today is pretty insane, it's not that hard to consider that the earth could have had different environmental conditions

After the "fall" humans and animals and plants became mortal. But humans and animals still lived more than 10 times longer than after the mythical flood.

They probaly lived longer because they were not as corrupt and still had some awareness of what was going on with some life energy. So they could survive it longer.
These days people only live a short time because the society is quite ill.

Where did all that water go?

Mythically... Where do you think the over-abundance of oceans came from?

The water is still under the earth, also water emerges whenever god wants it to. I know that sounds like a cop out in explaining it. But that's really the shortest way of saying it. That's why the bible keeps saying he said for it to happen and then it did. They were not concerned with the dogma of scientific methods so they were not going to write it as scientific journals, because they knew that is foolish to explain it that way.

Mythically, The original, perfect creation had immortal life on it. And was big enough to house and feed that life. There were no great expances of infertile land and the seas were tiny before the Mythical flood.

I keep saying "mythical" because originally there were no predators, no meat-eating animals. So no Dinosaurs.That is impossible to imagine.

Lots of silly Christians don't notice this verse ...

Perhaps the Dinosaurs came afterwards, when earth was already wrecked from the disobedience. Infact, clearly that was after a perfect world.

Genesis 1 verse 30

"And I have given all the grasses| and other green plants to the animals and birds for food." And so it was.

v31 - And God looked over all He had made, and He saw it was [u]excellent in every way[/b]. This all happened on the 6th day.

You are not timing it with a stopwatch. It's not meant to be interpreted in our calender system. The way we measure time is quite incompetent. They have to alter the satellites even every day or the technology wouldn't work.

The number 6 has a meaning that you don't fully understand in this culture. When it says 6th day. That's the day of friday in the week, the month of June in the year. And so on. In this context there is a distinct difference between day and night. Day can mean goodness and night evil. Day can mean light or clarity. And darkness or night can mean the unknown. You don't want to attribute it only to the earth spinning around 6 times. that is kind of dumb. You have the 6th note of the musical scale. the 6th planet in the solar system that has a certain energy. There is lots of things meaning of what 6 is attributed to both in terms of sound visual, and so on. It's not as straightforward as just saying lets measure 6 days in a row. That is totally out of context. Ofcourse someone honestly thinks that it is saying 6 days in a row, then that's going to be enough stupidity for them not be able to read the bible correctly, but there is still things in the bible they could make sense of.

In Genesis Chapter 2 God seems to do a (kind-of) second creation where everything goes wrong. It only goes wrong when he puts Adam into a deep sleep.

Some folk point out that God never actually awakens Adam. This indicates that "We" are all living in Adams dream (or nightmare)

That is pretty interesting actually and I've never herd that theory before.

Originally Posted by knight31

The number 6 has a meaning that you don't fully understand in this culture. When it says 6th day. That's the day of friday in the week, the month of June in the year. And so on. In this context there is a distinct difference between day and night. Day can mean goodness and night evil. Day can mean light or clarity. And darkness or night can mean the unknown...

Oh, so you're saying we can't actually know what the words in the bible mean!

Well there ya go folks - end of thread, end of argument. Knight31's "logic" completely invalidates itself in a massive spectacular implosion. That was fun!

Originally Posted by knight31

In mathematics you can't understand what infinity is but you still know infinity exists. Just because someone is not able to understand something doesn't mean it isn't there.

Yes you can understand what infinity is. It is "existence without limit." It's not difficult to understand. If you don't understand what infinite power is, then how can you say that God has it?

Originally Posted by knight31

perhaps I didn't state it in clear enough terms. If Jesus was beside you, he would not make fun of you or abuse you because that's not what we were told to do to others. Does it happen in the world? Yeah, but people have free will, If you do something of your own accord you can't blame god when it's your decision.
That would be like going up to a random christian in the street and punching them in the face and saying, god did it. Not only is that inappropriate, it doesn't make sense from the christian perspective. It only sometimes makes sense to the atheists perspective, but it's foolish.

You said Jesus would not let it happen.

Originally Posted by knight31

About a third of the Angels rebelled, I think the rest of the Angels are going to stick with god, since they already fought the others that rebelled and defeated them. Would you fight the Nazis in world war two, then when they lose you decide you are a Nazi afterall and then join them even after you defeated them? You are right that is pretty psycho and I'd say highly unlikely.

Wow, a third of Heaven's angels at one time were complete psychopaths. The figure for humanity is not even close to 1/3.

The Soviets helped the U.S. and Britain fight the Nazis and then turned on us and did psycho shit that rivaled the Nazi psycho shit. Heaven's angels (in the fictitious scenario) might not join Satan now, but that doesn't mean they won't go fruit loop nut case sadistic like 1/3 did a while back.

Originally Posted by knight31

Despite that even if all of the Angels rebelled, there isn't a problem god wouldn't be able to solve he created the Angels, what makes you think he couldn't create more Angels?

That is a very separate issue, but your point does illustrate how cold blooded the God character is for letting Satan and his angels burn people. But didn't you say Jesus wouldn't let stuff like that happen?

Originally Posted by knight31

I really don't know about the exact probability of an angel going crazy and rebelling because free will exists. But when you are in heaven, it's more likely you want to stay in heaven with god, then come back down here. Angels are not of the same type as humans. They can do superhuman things and have cognitive functions and ability of wisdom beyond our understanding. That's how the ones cast down here have deceived the world. So I based my statement mostly on that they are with god and are Angels. However in this society with satan around, humans are far more vulnerable to mental health problems as you probably know having a degree in psychology.

Wow, you know I have a degree in psychology. I guess we've met. More evidence for my recurring troll theory. I forgot to leave out the characteristic of starting multiple threads on basically the same topics in short time periods. Everybody I named did that. Mystic7 and Hominis Feralis were trolls too, but they were not R/S trolls. I still see some parallels there. I think the best troll character in the history of this website was Noogah. His Boy Scout uniform avatar was hysterically funny. That was good stuff.

Back to the game... Your point will be much more supported when more than 1/3 of the world's humans turn into horror movie style, torturous psycho characters.

Any way, the question was how good and trustworthy angels really are. In other words, what is the big deal about their level of good? I haven't seen you give much of an answer to that.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Oh, so you're saying we can't actually know what the words in the bible mean!

Well there ya go folks - end of thread, end of argument. Knight31's "logic" completely invalidates itself in a massive spectacular implosion. That was fun!

you have pretty pictures on your sig and avatar.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes you can understand what infinity is. It is "existence without limit." It's not difficult to understand. If you don't understand what infinite power is, then how can you say that God has it?

Well in that way, yes you can understand it's without limit. But you can't write down number 1 to infinite in a line. So in that way you can't behold it.
If infinity exists, which is has to, and you can demonstrate that by drawing a circle. every time you draw a circle, there is something outside of it. This indicates you can't confine anything to a boundary indefinitely.

then the concept of infinite power also exists. And whoever has infinite power is god.

The bible is just a guide to get you started, once you reach a certain level you will be given something else. If you can find his word amongst all the chaos then you are worthy of it and if you can't, well you didn't make yourself worthy of it.

Wow, a third of Heaven's angels at one time were complete psychopaths. The figure for humanity is not even close to 1/3.

The Soviets helped the U.S. and Britain fight the Nazis and then turned on us and did psycho shit that rivaled the Nazi psycho shit. Heaven's angels (in the fictitious scenario) might not join Satan now, but that doesn't mean they won't go fruit loop nut case sadistic like 1/3 did a while back.

Well the first Angel Lucifer was higher than the others, so it makes sense he could drag a few of them down with him. Only reason it happened is because they let pride and envy get in the way. Even if every angel rebelled god has infinite power so it makes no difference who rebels and who doesn't. He could just blink and it would destroy them all. But you are not afraid of him even though he has infinite power to do anything to you.

That is a very separate issue, but your point does illustrate how cold blooded the God character is for letting Satan and his angels burn people. But didn't you say Jesus wouldn't let stuff like that happen?

Satan can't touch you unless he has the authority to do so. Demons can't touch you unless they have the authority, or they would make a meal out of you by now.
You think that the fallen angels are just deciding to be nice to you atm? lol, they would be torturing you big time if they had their way. But god is preventing you from being touched. They don't have the authority to do some things. You focus so much on what you portray and the bad that happens. But you don't seem to get that there is another side to things, the good side. You pick out every bad thing possible, and use sin as an excuse to say well it don't make sense that god would exist. but if nothing bad happened ever, you would be like a spoilt child, you would not appreciate anything. Infact if you wanted the impossibility of sin you would have no free will, and if you had no free will you would not exist. So what you are asking for is non-existence, and if you keep asking for it you will get it lol.

Wow, you know I have a degree in psychology. I guess we've met. More evidence for my recurring troll theory. I forgot to leave out the characteristic of starting multiple threads on basically the same topics in short time periods. Everybody I named did that. Mystic7 and Hominis Feralis were trolls too, but they were not R/S trolls. I still see some parallels there. I think the best troll character in the history of this website was Noogah. His Boy Scout uniform avatar was hysterically funny. That was good stuff.

I'm not noogah. You have said on here before you did psychology when we were arguing, I guess you forgot.

Back to the game... Your point will be much more supported when more than 1/3 of the world's humans turn into horror movie style, torturous psycho characters.

Any way, the question was how good and trustworthy angels really are. In other words, what is the big deal about their level of good? I haven't seen you give much of an answer to that.

No because humans are all on a certain level. So there is not one above the rest to drag everyone else down. However if you read about Lucifer he was created much higher than the other Angels. So it doesn't compared to what happens with humanity and god.

There's probably a dozen or so Angels that protect you from calamity every day and you don't even know it. You just sound silly you know?
If you are so worried about how trustworthy Angels are then try living without them as see what happens.

And you need not worry in the first place since god has power of them anyway.

So basically, Noogah, God can completely prevent suffering and he prevents it in some cases but not others because there are rules he has to follow to allow certain things that are more important than not burning forever?

I find it very reassuring, knight31, that you have it in you to compliment Darkmatters on his artworks. It is important to remember to be nice to people as well. I couldn't agree more by the way about Darkmatters avatar and sig pictures being pretty. I remember when I came to this forum I found them to be very colorful and welcoming. I guess I should get an avatar too.

Edit: Speaking of compliments, I would also like to compliment the DV community: I think people come here for different reasons: some come here for encouragement and reassurance while others come here to pick a fight. Whether people are serious or trolling, I think this community is excellent at providing people the online forum experience that they request of it.

Yes, wasn't it nice the way he completely avoided the logic he's unable to refute by saying "Lookit the pretty pictures!"

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

So basically, Noogah, God can completely prevent suffering and he prevents it in some cases but not others because there are rules he has to follow to allow certain things that are more important than not burning forever?

Just call me by my screen name.

Secondly, the rules are only for if you want to be close to god. If you are not close to god, then you will suffer because he has all the power and always will. So if you are not close to god you are pretty screwed. And just because things are going well doesn't mean your close to god. If satan comes and says he's a 2 million dollar contract you might think wow I don't need god this is great. But what you don't know is that is a precursory to a terrible line of events. Like wise your life could be going horrible and you think why me this is terrible that god would allow this. But infact he would be doing the reverse of the other situation, he would be setting something up that's going to lead to a long chain of blessings. So you just can't judge it. You just have to know that he has the power, and you get to know that as you go.

yes he can change the rules whenever he wants. But just because he can doesn't mean he will. You could shoot yourself in the head now but you are unlikely to do that.
You could eat a dead rat, but you are also unlikely to do that (I hope)

So you are going beyond the bible saying he can make other rules up, which many people are not ready for. There is certains tests and things at higher levels but that's not where people are at. The fact is he is not going to change the command. His command is love. his love is infinite. So if you don't like love you are also in bad shape.

.. And how do you actually know any of this? Remember, you said yourself we can't properly understand what the words of the bible really mean. Is that all the words by the way, or just some of them - and if only some, then how do you know which ones? Until you actually answer this equivocally your posts are meaningless. You're just making stuff up.

Originally Posted by knight31

Just call me by my screen name.

Secondly, the rules are only for if you want to be close to god. If you are not close to god, then you will suffer because he has all the power and always will. So if you are not close to god you are pretty screwed. And just because things are going well doesn't mean your close to god. If satan comes and says he's a 2 million dollar contract you might think wow I don't need god this is great. But what you don't know is that is a precursory to a terrible line of events. Like wise your life could be going horrible and you think why me this is terrible that god would allow this. But infact he would be doing the reverse of the other situation, he would be setting something up that's going to lead to a long chain of blessings. So you just can't judge it. You just have to know that he has the power, and you get to know that as you go.

yes he can change the rules whenever he wants. But just because he can doesn't mean he will. You could shoot yourself in the head now but you are unlikely to do that.
You could eat a dead rat, but you are also unlikely to do that (I hope)

So you are going beyond the bible saying he can make other rules up, which many people are not ready for. There is certains tests and things at higher levels but that's not where people are at. The fact is he is not going to change the command. His command is love. his love is infinite. So if you don't like love you are also in bad shape.

Is that a yes or a no?

Originally Posted by knight31

I'm suppose to be working right now instead of replying here and you are repeating yourself a bit.
I previously stated that firmament refereed to water above the earth surface and beneath the earth. It makes no sense to assume they were talking about outer space.

No it doesn't. You are entirely ignoring the idea of firmament because it doesn't fit into your view on things. God created dry land after he created the firmament, so the firmament can't be the earth. Plus it says the firmament is heaven, which implies it was above in the sky and that is where people believed heaven was. No one believes heaven is the surface of the earth.

8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Where is heaven? The surface of the earth or in the sky above us separating us from space? Neither because this part of the bible is gibberish and only makes sense if you take a literal view from 2000 years ago where people thought heaven was a literal place in the sky, which it clearly isn't. Otherwise we would meet god every time we flew an airplane.

I haven't tried to calculate it myself, but soon as there is a gap in the data, you no longer have the data to do the mathematics of it.
I highly doubt have all the data for that going back to adam and eve. It reminds me of scientists trying to piece together bones of how we evolved, they always claim to have found the answer but it never makes sense or fits together correctly. Not only that you are relying on a calender system that did not exist in the time of adam and eve. You are assuming that time has always been experienced or measured in the same way, studying history, that's not true. So you have problems on top of problems in making your wild estimate, that you just don't have the ability to solve right now.

There isn't any holes, it is all there, especially from Adam to Abraham and like I said we know when Abraham existed since he is the first person in the bible who might actually be based on a real person instead of entirely made up. You can doubt it all you want but it is in the bible. If you believe the bible is a holy book you should read it, and if you read it all you will see the dates are all there and they are wrong.

Also saying they experienced time differently is just a silly excuse. The bible was written by people in more modern times why would they say day if they meant a million years or something? They wouldn't. You just can't explain how the bible is wrong so you are making up excuses. The bible specifically gives exact time lines, and they are provably incorrect.

There is lots of ice on the land, and it's common knowledge that melting ice in polar region in a concern for rising sea levels, and it's not the same as a floating ice cube.

There isn't any where near enough ice on land to flood the entire world, that is just silly. All the world's ice could melt and it would raise sea level several feet but the tallest mountain is nearly 24,000 feet tall. The water wouldn't even come close to covering it. There has never been a situation where all the land could be covered.

A couple of large earthquakes can make mountains and move the land all around in a short time. The crust of the earth can and has sunk before, and other crust has come out of the ocean. There is archaeological evidence of it. It's the kind of thing you materialist run around trying to cover up, so no-one will know lol. You said it was impossible I was giving you a larger perspective of how it is possible. I'm not even ruling out that god made it rain just because he wanted do, or just did it because he decided to. The weather has changed again today and they calling it global warming and they haven't being able to understand it enough to predict it, not even close. This is where you atheists always get stuck because your faith is based on limitations. Everything has to have a limit for you. You can't do this because of that. impossibility is your main concern. That's why you are saying my beliefs are impossible, because that's what your faith is all about focusing on that.

Yea a super earthquake could move a mountain half an inch, and over millions of years those inches can add up. the idea that the entire earth surface sank underwater is silly. First because the entire thing can't sink, only parts of it can sink relative to other parts, and because it takes millions of years not a few days.

As for those limits, they are called the laws of physics. I believe in a physical world of science. Just say what you are thinking, the flood was magic and you believe in magic. What you are saying can not possibly happen in the real world, unless you believe in magic. Of course there is no evidence of magic being real. Someone told you a fairy tale and you believed it, as simple as that. If your only answer is magic then that is the truth.

Instead of assuming the story is fake right away, firstly be reasonable and consider what you are talking about. You say many other stories but you are not specific.
I don't know what gilgamesh is but it doesn't prove they copied the story. That's like saying Australia copied America because they both have buildings that people like in. it's ridiculous. Yet that's not the reason why they both have buildings. If the other story speaks of a flood, there is many stories of floods.

You don't know the story of Gilgamesh because you never read or studied early literature. If you had studied early literature, even briefly, you would realize that a huge part of the early stuff people wrote was about trying to understand where we came from and how everything was created. In fact every culture has their own creation myths. The bible is just one of many, and Gilgamesh happens to be one of the earliest one we have evidence of in written form, and is widely known because of it.

If you spent time reading those early works you would realize the bible is a dime a dozen and everyone has their own 'bible', with different creation myths in them. We know none of them are real, and they are just stories written by early man to try to explain things going on around him but it is hard to show that on a forum, which is why I didn't bring it up earlier. Though if you read those other creation myths and study things going on at the time it becomes pretty clear they are all fake.

It was written down, that's why you even know about it. I know and I said that people do find things. Some of the things found probably was from them. It's difficult to discuss with you if you just say lots of things found, but nothing of the people from Moses. You have to be specific and tell me how you think you know that or how you came to that reasoning. I could say that there is no evidence that I went to a beach party, since I tell you no information about the beach party, you can hardly discuss the evidence of it.

Just because one person writes down a crazy idea doesn't make it true. I obviously can't point out specific things that were never found, because they don't exist. The entire point though, is if you got millions of people wandering through the desert there should be tons and tons of stuff. It is like a quarter of the population of Egypt were wandering around the desert, there should be ton of evidence.

It is kind of like if I had a beach party and invited a third of California to come party on the beach. The sand isn't going to be pristine and clean the next morning and everyone is going to know something happened.

You are being very vague which starts to sound like you have no information on what you are talking about.
It's not really questionable at all. If our civilization got destroyed from climatic earth changes. Thousands of years later humans would start a new culture from scratch when this culture and society started to rebuild, and herd stories of 'planes', they wouldn't be able to understand what planes was a reference to, and instead of conclusion that they were flying metal machines, they might conclude that it's a spiritual plane of the mind that they use. because planes also refers to levels of existence spiritually. And because they would be in an entirely difficult cultural setting, and they would make wrong conclusions about it, based on their culture. They would mis-interpret some things which is definitely what you do with the bible.

Actually, you are the one misinterpreting the bible, kind of like how you didn't know what firmament was. I am no biblical scholar but I have looked into the subject enough to know what they mean when they are saying a lot of the crazy stuff they are. The thing is, there are other books and stories written at the same time of the bible and we can use those as references. So there is information on all the stuff they were talking about and you can reference stuff and when you do the bible usually proves to be pretty inaccurate.

He was dead for 3 days then he came back from being dead. Just because we are eternal doesn't mean we can't make sacrifices. I'm not sure why you think a sacrifice isn't possible. lots of people sacrifice their time at work every day to pay the bills. Just because they are getting something back doesn't mean it's not a sacrifice. I'm sure they would like the extra time than to be working.

I am not saying sacrifices can't be done, I am saying Jesus did not make a sacrifice at all. What he did wasn't a sacrifice in any sense of the word.

But that's not why he said he was doing it. You can't accuse people of the motivations behind their actions. Especially if they did it 2000 years ago and claim something entirely different to what you say about them. You are basically calling Jesus a liar. Not only is it not sensible, it's also insulting.

I am just calling it like I am seeing. If Jesus actually existed as a real person, chances are he was a con man. He is basically the same as the cult leaders that are around today, that get people to follow them around. In fact Jesus was a pretty sorry cult leader because he had barely any followers at all.

It is kind of like the Heaven's Gate incident where the cult leader got 40 people to commit suicide because they thought aliens were going to come pick them up. He convinced them of weird things and they believed it.

Jesus did the same thing, he convinced a handful of people of some crazy story and they believed it. The fact that he got arrested and sentence to death because people thought he was a mad man, kind of reveals that he was likely kind of crazy. Evidence seems to suggest that he is a lair and a cult leader and that is a more likely story than the stuff he claimed.

What's your example of a proper sacrifice? because Jesus is the best example of it that there is.

How about him giving something up? Jesus doesn't give anything up, and free loads off everyone else in the bible. A proper example of a sacrifice would be a rich person giving up his money to help others for the sake of helping others. Money has value and the person gave up the money and he did not gain anything from it, he did it solely to help others.

If you love one another, then that's the whole point of it in the first place. So you wouldn't be in hell with them anyway. And it wouldn't make sense for one to be in hell and the other not. If the other person has love for you, they will be there. If they didn't have any love for you and only purely hated you, then it's likely you won't mind if they are not in heaven.

No, they wont be with you. If two people truly love each other, and one is an atheist and one is a christian, then they can't be together. God will separate true love and abandon the one that doesn't worship him. So how would that christian be happy in heaven with their true love burning in hell? They wouldn't be, the concept of perfect happiness without your love ones doesn't make sense. Heaven is an illogical place that can not exist.

It sounds like you are afraid that you won't be able to be sinful. But someone that is wise is more afraid of god than losing their sins.

I am not really afraid of anything since I know heaven doesn't exist. However in this hypothetical situation I would be afraid of having my personally destroyed and replaced with something that isn't me, and that no longer cares for the people I used to love. There is no point in living if your entire personally and your memories are wiped cleaned. That isn't you any more. It is just something that resembles you.

This life on earth will put you through suffering, but that is for a good reason. Because when you die, if you have impurity in you, that will be purged from you before you can go into heaven. And if you have a lot of impurity, you are going to be getting purged for a long time and it's not in small bits with no pressure like on earth. Cause you won't have a body it's all going to come upon you at once and you will feel the weight of it burn off. You can't offset it like on earth here. The suffering on earth is suppose to help get rid of it so you don't have to go through so much when you pass on. If you spend you life indulging in immoral things being materialistic and all the rest of it, you are setting yourself up for total failure and you won't be able to rectify it once you have passed on. The only thing left to do at that point is purge everything from you to be able to exist in heaven. (it's impossible to be immoral or impure in heaven, that wouldn't make sense) and if that destroys your personality and your soul, that's what the bible warns about, and that's what people talk about with the lake of fire. but I admit the lake of fire analogy has being misused to manipulate people, which is in itself a sin.

So basically you confirmed what we all already knew. God is a sadomasochist so he designed impure people that would require pain to be purified. Kind of wonder why the church is so against sex though. Shouldn't we all be into bdsm and whipping each other in worship of God? At least if your into that sort of stuff you get pleasure from it, so even though God doesn't exist you still get the fun stuff.

The bible is the only book that accurately fortold of the birth of Jesus and his sacrifice before it happened, and the only book that fortold of the reconstruction of Israel before it happened, you can safely assume that it's the word of god, and that's it's revelations are coming to pass.

The bible didn't accurately foretell anything. Jesus doesn't really fit the prophecy and there is a lot of flaws in the Jesus story which shows the story was edited and faked so that Jesus would fit it. The entire birth of Jesus story is riddled with holes that doesn't make sense and is prime evidence it was just made up so it sounded like he fulfilled the prophecy.

There is a reason so many people doubted Jesus was really the person he claimed to be and even today a major parts of the religion disagree. For examples the Jews don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. Why did so many people not believe? Well the answer is simple, because the story doesn't make any sense.