Thread: How to have an Instant WILD

What's the difference between OBE and lucid dreams?

I believe that OBEs are just a specific type of lucid dream, thought some believe they are a different state.

I have a little trouble reading the book, his word of choice are too sophisticated for me to comprehend most of it, but I sort of get the idea. When you attempt the indirect technique, is it like a WBTB or is it anytime when you awoken from a sleep?
Also, the "Phantom wiggling", you're supposed to try to move your body parts without physically moving it right?

Ideally you do it after WBTB, but after a while when you have a experience you can switch to using it every awakening. With phantom wiggling you're supposed to try to move any body part without using muscles. You are supposed to start slowly and amplify the movement and then use the movement of that dream body to leave your real body.

I did my fifth night of attempts last night - three attempts within the night - and didn't achieve lucidity. There is still some fine tuning for me to do - I've now conditioned myself to wake up without moving but I still need to condition myself to start applying the techniques as soon as I wake up.

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Ideally you do it after WBTB, but after a while when you have a experience you can switch to using it every awakening. With phantom wiggling you're supposed to try to move any body part without using muscles. You are supposed to start slowly and amplify the movement and then use the movement of that dream body to leave your real body.

I did my fifth night of attempts last night - three attempts within the night - and didn't achieve lucidity. There is still some fine tuning for me to do - I've now conditioned myself to wake up without moving but I still need to condition myself to start applying the techniques as soon as I wake up.

Youre kind of rephrasing what he said. When you wiggle part of your body without using muscles it's trying to move it in your mind right? Not physically move it?

Yes, I think that it is, but as I haven't had success yet I probably can't offer much guidance. Mcwillis has had success with the technique and started this thread so maybe you should ask him.

I've been trying this technique for seven days now and I'm nowhere near achieving lucidity with it. The two problems I'm having are:

1) I can't wake up without moving. By the time I'm aware I'm awake I've already moved.
2) By the time I'm awake enough to remember to apply Mr Raduga's techniques it's already too late.

Maybe I don't have an aptitude for this technique, but I'm seriously questioning how Mr Raduga arrives at his statistics. He claims that in the first five attempts the success rate is 50 percent, in the first 11-20 attempts the success rate is 90 percent. Does he mean that 90 percent of people who walk through the door for his courses achieve an LD? Or does he mean that 90 percent of people achieve an LD when they apply his techniques to the letter? Or, it could even mean that only one person has achieved lucidity in the group but is so prolifically achieving lucidity that it makes one learning group's statistics look more impressive than they really are? People have gone on his forum and said they are having difficulties and not achieving lucidity but Mr Raduga's usual response is to tell them they are not applying the techniques correctly (something I've put 100 percent effort into doing and it's very difficult. I'm beginning to doubt another of his claims that the average time for achieving lucidity with this is 1 to 3 days).

I, myself, could start up a "lucid dreaming school" and claim the success rate is an amazing 90 percent. But that would only be when you apply the techniques to the letter. But when you get to the course you find out that the technique is basically: You've got to ask yourself if you're dreaming when you're dreaming and do a nose pinch. And that would be where my 90 percent success rate came from - from the people who managed to follow that (very difficult) instruction to the letter. If anyone came on the course and complained that it was difficult to ask themselves if they were dreaming in a dream, then I could retort that they "aren't doing the technique properly" and exclude them from my statistics and base my final statistics on the people who managed to ask if they were dreaming.

Mr Raduga seems a good guy, and I'm a fair person and realise I can't fairly reach a conclusion about his results unless there are a number of people doing the same experiment as me, but I suspect Mr Raduga is "creatively interpreting" his statistics to make it look like the success rate with the techniques are better than they really are. I would like to see 50 people be taught the techniques and see how many of them, at the end of a month, have achieved lucidity with the technique and just how many lucid dreams each person has had.

EDIT: Another problem I forgot to mention is that there's not always an exact dividing line between being awake/being asleep (for anyone that doesn't know, you're supposed to apply the techiques the very moment you wake up). Mr Raduga doesn't mention this anywhere in his literature. In the early morning when I'm slumbering am I supposed to "interrupt" my slumber and do the techniques then, or wait until I'm "properly awake" (whatever that means) and do the techniques then? I have not seen Mr Raduga address this issue in his literature or videos and I cannot be the only one who has problems interpreting what specifically I'm supposed to do about the slumbering/awake problem. It's an obvious problem; his lack of attention to the issue makes me wonder if he has genuinely worked with people to help them overcome personal obstacles and achieve lucidity on a long term basis or whether he just generates attractive-looking statistics to make people go on his courses.

a few days ago I managed to hit the vibrational state and rolled myself
over without muscle movement. Then I opened my eyes to see if I was
actually on my stomach but I wasn't. I was on my back. I thought I failed
then got up and had a non-lucid. Now I know for next time though!

I had four LDs last night. I think these techniques were a factor in two of them (both FAs). The other two were DILDs. Will continue to experiment and report back with successes.

My question is, are the WILD's produced through this method exactly the same as a traditional WILD? By that I mean is the realism and stability as powerful as it is normally?

Do you HAVE to wake up naturally for this?!?!
If you do, how can you train yourself to do it?

Hey! I am going to try this along with my timer method, because the indirect techniques seems to be alot like a movement free reality check.
To understand what I mean think of this: If you go to bed right now and look for images, listen for sounds and so on, there will be none because you are in a physical focus.
But if you notice an awakening, and lay still with closed eyes and try to look for images, listen for sounds etc, and if you get ANY of these sensations, then you are in a non-physical focus and are very close to a lucid dream. And if you keep focusing on one of these sensations, you are amplifying it and starting to become more non-physical than physical, when you feel the sensations are really vivid, you are in the dream and can separate. And if no sensations occur fall right back to sleep and use another awakening. I hope this will work, in any case it's a perfect reality check.

Originally Posted by NightSpy2

Do you HAVE to wake up naturally for this?!?!
If you do, how can you train yourself to do it?

no but it will help and be far more likely on the occasions when you wake up naturally straight after a dream because you will still be close to rem mode. an alarm can shock you out of that, but a gentle alarm can be used to wake you slowly, as long as you dont have to move alot to turn it off.

i sleep with the curtains open so that the light wakes me up naturally, but really you just have to practice your intent to do it for yourself.

perhaps record a custom alarm of you telling yourself to wake up naturally. then when you get used to this you can stop using the alarm and hope that your instructions have become habit..?

Read a few pages so far. This looks like a fantastic resource and I look forward to delving further into it. Thanks for posting, McWillis

There is also a YouTube video that helps to give a nice overview of the techniques.

Out-of-Body Experience in 1-2 Days! - YouTube

(Originally posted by McWillis in another thread.)

When it talks about 'training' indirect methods, should training be done at any time or upon awakening without moving/opening eyes?

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

When it talks about 'training' indirect methods, should training be done at any time or upon awakening without moving/opening eyes?

As in the video he says indirect methods require initial sleep, he suggests the average WBTB of 5 hours, essentially once you perform WBTB with an alarm clock you stay awake for 5 minutes you then use autosuggestion to wake up in the next 2-3 hours, so without an alarm this time go back to sleep and attempt to wake up in 2-3 hours. Also when you're telling yourself don't use repetition its important to have confidence, affirm yourself but don't for instance make a mantra such as "I will wake up in 2 hours and remain still" you could but that would kind of defeat the purpose of this technique because you might not fall asleep.

This method is a form of DEILD (Dream-Exit Initiated Lucid Dream) where you wake-up at the end of a dream and remain still, so remember during your autosuggestion to infer the need to remain still, doing both suggestions can be the most difficult part of this method, which is why I suggest the CANWILD method in this section which uses a 5 second alarm to wake you up, this eliminates the need to depend on yourself to wake up naturally in the 2-3 gap,otherwise it works better if you focus on having a normal lucid dream (DILD) during that 2 hour sleep period after your WBTB, because if you can have a lucid in that period then once it begins to fades you then have a large period of time to remember to stay still, which is cool as you essentially use a lucid dream to enter your DEILD/WILD. Which is where the whole dream-chaining thing comes into play, where you literally repeatedly enter a DEILD and as the dream fades tell yourself to remain still and continually go into more DEILD's .

Thanks for the info, Draxquin , I was just confused because the book itself is ambiguous, to train it says 'lie down and close your eyes' which isn't the same as 'wake up and don't move etc.' I was familiar with the overall technique as a DEILD

Without meaning to I woke up into sleep paralysis last night and DEILDed, I think it was because of reading the book

A few days after reading the indirect techniques, I had a chain of 4 DEILD's.. It was pretty awesome.
I've also used the Roll-Out technique to get me lucid, but only once.

Would be interested to see some independent statistics on how effective these techniques are, both in the short term and the long term. After 16 days of concentration on these techniques I've yet to experience a lucid dream I could confirm as being a result of the application of the techniques. Starting to get sceptical, if I'm honest. I'm off work so have been able to concentrate on memorising the techniques so that I can perform them habitually on waking. Have followed Mr Raduga's instructions in his guidebook verbatim. But nothing. Will remain open minded for now and will take a break for a few days. Will then return to trying the techniques then, if no results after a few days, will switch to MILD again and relying on the soul destroying lucky dip that is DILD. Would be interested in setting up an experiment to get people to try the techniques and produce our own stats as to how effective they are.

Originally Posted by NightSpy2

A few days after reading the indirect techniques, I had a chain of 4 DEILD's.. It was pretty awesome.
I've also used the Roll-Out technique to get me lucid, but only once.

That's fab, but I'm not sure that the Raduga techniques should get any credit for that. DEILDing - or dream chaining - has been around for quite a long time, and rolling out of the body is discussed in ETWOLD (a 1990 book). The only thing new Mr Raduga brought to the table was the cycling of techniques, and when I have managed to apply those techniques (and it is extremely difficult to both stay still on waking and remember to apply the techniques) I haven't experienced a single thing that could be construed as either a step towards lucidity or a positive sign that the techniques are close to working and I should stick with them.

As I have said, it would be unreasonable to judge the techniques on my experiences alone, which is why I'd like to see a proper experiment conducted as to the effectiveness of the techniques.

To Ctharlhie:
Your first thought about a training was right - Raduga really suggests to train the techniques WHILE BEING AWAKE.
DraxQuin is talking about actual practicing the indirect techniques in the night or early morning, so don't be confused.

.................................
Keep your dreams alive

It normally takes me around 3-5mins to become lucid (because I fall asleep very quickly) but never as quickly as 15 seconds. I'm rather sceptical about the effectiveness of this technique as a whole because if you examine what actually goes on in the someone's brain between the transition from consciousness to sleep state, their EEG values reduce very significantly. I'm just doubtful as to whether humans can will themselves to reach lucidity in the manner described.

Once again I'm hypnotised by your avatar...