Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

I'm almost done reading today's session. But I just wanted to ask this:

Some people around the forum say that WILD attempts take at least one hour to an hour and 30 minutes to actually enter the dream from the waking state.
Is this true?

Originally Posted by Sydney

I'm almost done reading today's session. But I just wanted to ask this:

Some people around the forum say that WILD attempts take at least one hour to an hour and 30 minutes to actually enter the dream from the waking state.
Is this true?

I believe, if it's taking you that long to WILD, you're doing something wrong.

Originally Posted by RareCola

I believe, if it's taking you that long to WILD, you're doing something wrong.

Yeah, I don't know. I remember Naiya or Mzzkc saying something about if it takes longer than 45 minutes, give up.
Because really, I wouldn't want to wait that long anyway. But I don't know, I guess it depends on the person.

Originally Posted by Sydney

I'm almost done reading today's session. But I just wanted to ask this:

Some people around the forum say that WILD attempts take at least one hour to an hour and 30 minutes to actually enter the dream from the waking state.
Is this true?

That's a curious question, Sydney!

No, it is not true. WILD attempts take as long as they take (meaning the time spent WILDing depends entirely on the person, and the condition of that person, doing the WILDing). There is no assigned length.

I've had WILD attempts that lasted just a few minutes -- indeed, DEILD's can last as little as a second or two, but that might not count here -- or they could take an hour or more... It all depends on focus, physics, and timing. But if someone's telling you there is a minimum time required to properly WILD, that someone is mistaken. Try not to take such pronouncements seriously... Which I suppose is what this week's session is all about. So I guess your question makes sense after all!

Originally Posted by RareCola

I believe, if it's taking you that long to WILD, you're doing something wrong.

Not necessarily. If your timing was off, or if you're a bit pokey in collecting your self for the WILD, or if you're amazingly slow at relaxing and falling asleep, then you could find yourself lying there in wait for well over an hour. It happens.

Now, though I may be the type to give up on my WILD attempt after 90 minutes or so, I can also confirm from experience (mine and other's) that WiLD's can be encountered after a couple of hours of waiting. There is no "official" time limit for WILD, and if a person's psyche is tuned, for instance, to waiting for the next REM cycle for WILD to occur, then they might not be doing anything wrong if they have to wait an hour or two.

I think Session Three's theme fits here as well, in that it is not a great idea to assume something about WILD (or anything) must be true because you read it on a website... That of course goes for anything I say, too!

Originally Posted by Sydney

Yeah, I don't know. I remember Naiya or Mzzkc saying something about if it takes longer than 45 minutes, give up.
Because really, I wouldn't want to wait that long anyway. But I don't know, I guess it depends on the person.

Sydney, only give up when you think it's time to give up, and not when someone tells you to do so!

As a matter of fact, you shouldn't even have this thought in your head: What if your mind "scheduled" you to take two hours to complete a WILD, and after one hour you start remembering that knowledgable folks on the WEB told you it shouldn't take this long? Wouldn't that possibly cause you to give up, or at least cloud your mind with enough doubt that you can't go on? Think about it...

Trust me, Sydney, with practice you'll know when it's time to "give up," and that time will vary from WILD to WILD. Try not to attach limits to the process, because then the process will have limits.

Okay, thank you Sageous.

I just remembered a question I wanted to ask earlier but was too afraid to ask it Lol I guess I'll ask it now:

When waking up for WBTB directly after a REM cycle, wouldn't you have to wait (whether it be during the WBTB or whilst doing a WILD attempt) until the next REM cycle happens, and then you'll enter a dream?

If that didn't make sense, here's an example:

Say I wake up right after a REM cycle to use the restroom. If I stay up for about 5 minutes after that and then get back in bed and try to WILD, won't it take more than an hour to reach the dream state, since I wasn't in REM at the time?

Wow, what a wakeup call. Every time I tried WILD in the past I was waiting for "the noise." I'm glad you made the point that the hallucinations and noise shouldn't be the goal, the lucid dream itself is. I'm also curious about Sydney's question, too.

Originally Posted by Sydney

Okay, thank you Sageous.

I just remembered a question I wanted to ask earlier but was too afraid to ask it Lol I guess I'll ask it now:

When waking up for WBTB directly after a REM cycle, wouldn't you have to wait (whether it be during the WBTB or whilst doing a WILD attempt) until the next REM cycle happens, and then you'll enter a dream?

Yes.

But not all that long, if you're doing WBTB well into (5 hours or more) your night's/morning's sleep:

If that didn't make sense, here's an example:

Say I wake up right after a REM cycle to use the restroom. If I stay up for about 5 minutes after that and then get back in bed and try to WILD, won't it take more than an hour to reach the dream state, since I wasn't in REM at the time?

The reason it is a good idea to do WILD very late in your sleep cycle is because by then your REM cycles will be very close together -- even jammed together with very little NREM time between them, if you've already slept for many hours.

So yes, you do have to wait for your next REM cycle, but no, you will not have to wait for an hour if you are well along in your sleep cycles. Indeed, because REM cycles are closer and closer together as your night's/morning's sleep lingers on, you'll likely have a very short wait for the next cycle. As a matter of fact, I suggest that WBTB should never last more than 45 minutes in the morning, because you want to avoid being up for longer than it takes to get to your next REM cycle...which could very well be scheduled to start right after that restroom break!

This of course is why WBTB is done late in your sleep cycle, instead of when you go to bed.

Good question, Sydney -- no need to have been afraid to ask!

On the subject of SP vs Non-REM phenomenon, do you think those infamous 'waves' of energy/numbness/whathaveyou are in fact the process of dissociating from sensory input and resultant sensory deprivation as the body and mind fall into Non-REM sleep? In sleep (not dream) yoga the state aimed for is 'absence of vision' (that is, total sensory deprivation).
When I was falling asleep normally last night I felt those waves, I'd already had some HI and it occurred to me that what I was experiencing wasn't the onset of SP but conscious transition into delta sleep. However, I lost consciousness soon after.

Originally Posted by Sageous

The reason it is a good idea to do WILD very late in your sleep cycle is because by then your REM cycles will be very close together -- even jammed together with very little NREM time between them, if you've already slept for many hours.

So yes, you do have to wait for your next REM cycle, but no, you will not have to wait for an hour if you are well along in your sleep cycles. Indeed, because REM cycles are closer and closer together as your night's/morning's sleep lingers on, you'll likely have a very short wait for the next cycle. As a matter of fact, I suggest that WBTB should never last more than 45 minutes in the morning, because you want to avoid being up for longer than it takes to get to your next REM cycle...which could very well be scheduled to start right after that restroom break!

This of course is why WBTB is done late in your sleep cycle, instead of when you go to bed.

Good question, Sydney -- no need to have been afraid to ask!

Thanks again, Sageous. I understand better how WBTB works now, hahaha.
Oh and yesterday's session was quite excellent ^^ I used to be looking for the "noise" whenever I did WILD attempts, but then you said it was merely a distraction. Makes sense.
It would be kinda cool to experience it though. I've never really experienced it before except for these weird whale noises I heard. I thought that someone was watching a whale movie or something downstairs lol.

Oh wow I had 2 back to back lucids this morning. I had to get up for about 30 minutes to prepare food for my sick mom, and when I went back to bed, I got lucid. It turned out to be a WBTB!

Also, in both of those lucids, out of nowhere I just got the urge to RRC, and bam! These were the first lucids I got since RRCing, and I don't know if it's related to vividity, but I noticed that they were both extremely vivid (most vivid ones I've had so far). So realistic, in fact, that I had to do physical RCs a lot just to really make sure.

All throughout the dreams, I had this constant feeling of being truly myself (awareness?), which made me even more lucid, if that makes any sense. Anyway, RRC's are definitely helpful indeed! =)

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

On the subject of SP vs Non-REM phenomenon, do you think those infamous 'waves' of energy/numbness/whathaveyou are in fact the process of dissociating from sensory input and resultant sensory deprivation as the body and mind fall into Non-REM sleep? In sleep (not dream) yoga the state aimed for is 'absence of vision' (that is, total sensory deprivation).

Yes, I believe those things are likely just more "noise" that you're noticing during that process of dissociation -- and the sleep yogis will be the first to tell you that even after the 'absence of vision' is in place, there is still the threat of still more intrusion of noise (ne reason there are very few Sleep Yogis in successful practice!). Definitely not SP, and, I believe, nothing supernatural. That's not too deep and meaningful, I suppose, but much more likely, and, given that even that delta noise is not helpful to the tasks at hand for sleep yoga, still very much a distraction.

When I was falling asleep normally last night I felt those waves, I'd already had some HI and it occurred to me that what I was experiencing wasn't the onset of SP but conscious transition into delta sleep. However, I lost consciousness soon after.

I think you were right. After you perfect your WILD skills, you should be able to stay conscious through delta sleep. Of course, "perfect your WILD skills" is a helluva statement!

Originally Posted by Sydney

Thanks again, Sageous. I understand better how WBTB works now, hahaha.
Oh and yesterday's session was quite excellent ^^ I used to be looking for the "noise" whenever I did WILD attempts, but then you said it was merely a distraction. Makes sense.
It would be kinda cool to experience it though. I've never really experienced it before except for these weird whale noises I heard. I thought that someone was watching a whale movie or something downstairs lol.

There's nothing wrong with noticing the noise, Sydney -- just as long as you do not make it too important or, worse, the real priority of your dive. In fact, it would be best to notice it after you wake up, if that makes sense.

... And, of course, don't let the "rush" that can accompany the noise erase your WILD!

Originally Posted by paigeyemps

Oh wow I had 2 back to back lucids this morning. I had to get up for about 30 minutes to prepare food for my sick mom, and when I went back to bed, I got lucid. It turned out to be a WBTB!

Also, in both of those lucids, out of nowhere I just got the urge to RRC, and bam! These were the first lucids I got since RRCing, and I don't know if it's related to vividity, but I noticed that they were both extremely vivid (most vivid ones I've had so far). So realistic, in fact, that I had to do physical RCs a lot just to really make sure.

All throughout the dreams, I had this constant feeling of being truly myself (awareness?), which made me even more lucid, if that makes any sense. Anyway, RRC's are definitely helpful indeed! =)

That's good news, paigeyemps! I hadn't thought about RRC's increasing vividness too, but I suppose that's possible. It's great that they're helping with your self-awareness -- don't let this success relax your habit of doing them. though!

Just to understand this noise a bit better: Sometimes, just before I fall asleep, my thoughts become "wird". I'll be thinking about something quite sane and then suddenly realize that I'm falling asleep and am now thinking about purple cats in my fridge (or something similar). If I happen to be talking to my boyfriend while it happens I'll start talking about the purple cats as well. It also happens sometimes when I try to meditate (and I'm not very good at it, so I might be falling asleep there as well).
So if dreams don't start till much later, what is it then? Is it HI?

Originally Posted by Strit

Just to understand this noise a bit better: Sometimes, just before I fall asleep, my thoughts become "weird". I'll be thinking about something quite sane and then suddenly realize that I'm falling asleep and am now thinking about purple cats in my fridge (or something similar). If I happen to be talking to my boyfriend while it happens I'll start talking about the purple cats as well. It also happens sometimes when I try to meditate (and I'm not very good at it, so I might be falling asleep there as well).
So if dreams don't start till much later, what is it then? Is it HI?

That, Strit, is a different kind of noise altogether, one with which I'm sadly all too familiar!

The noise I'm talking about is the natural stuff that accompanies everyone's normal regression into sleep (and ought to be treated that way). I think what you're talking about are mental distractions -- annoying moments when your thoughts wander and, at times of meditation or WILD, seem to become forces unto themselves. I suppose it could be a form of HI, if you're also seeing the cats, or feeling their presence, but I think it's just a case of wandering thoughts, especially if they're even crowding into your conversations with your boyfriend.

This happens to me all the time (I'm a very bad at meditating, and find my mind ticking off unplanned thoughts (usually things like plans for my next art project, or rehashes of things I said wrong that day, or a rundown of tomorrows chores -- no purple cats ) within a few minutes.

The good news is that that kind of noise can be dealt with, because thoughts, no matter how unruly, come from you and can be stopped, or at least ignored, by you with some effort. The bad news is that if you're anything like me that effort is enormous -- I've tried every kind of meditation, from guided to machines, and almost nothing works (I really get annoyed when some guru says, "just let the thoughts flow by you like a pleasant stream -- yeah, right!). About the only thing that does work for me is white noise -- I use a fan and a special machine, and together they seem to fill my head with enough empty static that at least a couple of thoughts are drowned out! Beyond that, the best you can do is try to remember to go back to your primary thoughts when things like purple cats interfere, and struggle to maintain their priority (the primary thoughts -- not the purple cats).

Now, in the case that I'm wrong and the cats are HI, our next session will include a bit about how to use HI as foundations for forming dreams. Hopefully what I have to say then will help. So, in the end, the purple cats might not be a bad thing at all.

Also, in a later session we'll be talking about DEILD, where you can circumvent unruly thoughts altogether by never really waking up; that might help as well, though the purple cats will have been left behind...

I hope that made sense ... let me know if it didn't.

I guess I am like you when it comes to unruly thoughts. It sounds like you are describing me when I try to meditate.
I certainly don't see the cats (or whatever it is) so it must be just stray thoughts, but they are not like anything I would ever think of while fully awake, so somehow they are related to falling asleep.

I feel like I have a lot of work ahead of me.

Originally Posted by Strit

I guess I am like you when it comes to unruly thoughts. It sounds like you are describing me when I try to meditate. I certainly don't see the cats (or whatever it is) so it must be just stray thoughts, but they are not like anything I would ever think of while fully awake, so somehow they are related to falling asleep.

It could be related to falling asleep, but why not just make it related regardless? Just as you might recognize the "normal" noise as milestones, maybe you can incorporate the stray thoughts, rather than just be distracted by them -- "see" them as they occur as just more steps toward dreaming, places you visit on the way to your dream. Ironically, the process of recognizing them might be enough to diminish their impact. I'm not sure that will work, and it sounds suspiciously like the jamoke who once told me to regard my stray thoughts as a passing stream, but who knows?

And again, Tuesday's session has some ideas for forming dreams from HI; you ought to be able to use the same template for these thoughts.

I feel like I have a lot of work ahead of me.

But it can be fun work...and the rewards are excellent!

So i just read the 3rd post, about noise

What i have to add to this is that i was always focusing on getting to SP in my WILD attempts so far... Now i see how wrong it is... as even just focusing too much on what sensations i will experience tend to distract me and ruin the WILD attempt :/
I try to imagine something, the dream environment for example where i want to find myself, but i always get distracted by those sensations and i unintentionally focus on them
But maybe you'll post something related to the imagining part later on

Oh and another thing: I tend to have SPs often when i wake up from a dream, which is great for DEILD and thanks to this i know the feeling of SP well.
Now the thing is that sometimes when doing WILD, i tend to feel similar vibrations like in SP, but in a weaker form. The problem with this is that i only feel it on my bottom half. I mean it moves up from my toes to my waist, then it just stops... Do you have any idea why is this? I suspected for a while that SP is about to begin, but i'm not so sure anymore, since it just suddenly stops when it gets to my waist... and SP vibrations are stronger as well...

Originally Posted by littlezoe

...
I try to imagine something, the dream environment for example where i want to find myself, but i always get distracted by those sensations and i unintentionally focus on them But maybe you'll post something related to the imagining part later on

As a matter of fact, Tuesday's session talks about forming the dream and touches on imagination; though I hope there'll be more talk that later.

Oh and another thing: I tend to have SPs often when i wake up from a dream, which is great for DEILD and thanks to this i know the feeling of SP well. Now the thing is that sometimes when doing WILD, i tend to feel similar vibrations like in SP, but in a weaker form. The problem with this is that i only feel it on my bottom half. I mean it moves up from my toes to my waist, then it just stops... Do you have any idea why is this? I suspected for a while that SP is about to begin, but i'm not so sure anymore, since it just suddenly stops when it gets to my waist... and SP vibrations are stronger as well...

Nope, I haven't a clue why this might happen, except maybe that you've simply "discovered" yourself halfway through the process, with SP still half on (or off, I suppose). But, like the rest of the noise, you needn't do more than simply notice it and move on to your WILD.

Originally Posted by Sageous

As a matter of fact, Tuesday's session talks about forming the dream and touches on imagination; though I hope there'll be more talk that later.

This is the lesson I've been looking forward to most as I'm interested in V-WILD

Originally Posted by Sageous

Nope, I haven't a clue why this might happen, except maybe that you've simply "discovered" yourself halfway through the process, with SP still half on (or off, I suppose). But, like the rest of the noise, you needn't do more than simply notice it and move on to your WILD.

Well, when this happens i'm constantly conscious, aware of everything around me... i don't lose consciousness at times like this... Kinda weird.. maybe it's just some meaningless sensation and i shouldn't care about it, just as you said

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Maybe it's just some meaningless sensation and i shouldn't care about it, just as you said

I think so...especially if the act of caring about it gets in the way of decent dreaming.