Thread: The age of perfect lucid attainment, NOW!

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I've never had an experience of 'fake' lucidity, it's my belief that fake lucidity arises from a realisation one is dreaming, but only possessing low levels of waking cognition/operative memory, etc. That being said I'm open to debate on that point. However, by your line of reasoning techniques such as the use of auto-suggestion and post-hypnotic suggestion would have a much higher than average incidence of 'fake lucidity' and I don't believe that is the case.
I have had dreams in which I have lain down to WILD, reached sleep paralysis, transitioned and had a fully lucid dream believing I had successfully WILDed, only to realise that I had not in fact WILDed. But the lucid dreams resulting from those 'dream WILDs' were no less lucid than any of my other lucid dreams, in fact my first lucid flying dream came from a 'fake' WILD.

A placebo isn't a real 'thing' it's a handy way of describing a reaction of the brain to pre-suggestion (this is a pill, I will feel better), many lucidity techniques rely on this very mechanic ('when I recognise a dream I will realise I'm dreaming and become lucid', 'I am a natural lucid dreamer', 'I'm dreaming, I'm dreaming', etc.).

The only way that the placebo effect could be applied to lucid dreaming is in an experimental context. You set up a lab experiment of 60 participants, 30 carry out the scientifically falsified techniques set out by Stephen Laberge, and the experimental group of 30 participants are given a placebo, a wonder lucid dreaming pill.
In this case you would testing whether the success of DILD techniques was actually due to the placebo effect, people having confidence in the technique and so they lucid dream, and I reckon that there is a massive placebo effect in Laberge's techniques, I bet the placebo group would be very successful. After all, how many techniques out there have you seen that say that confidence is the most important thing?

Well said, and I see your point -- the placebo effect might indeed be instrumental here. I stand by what I said, though, and will always hold out that caveat as true. But...

I can see now that, in a context where placebo = confidence, that placebo can have real power in initial LD's. As a matter of fact, I've been to LaBerge's "Dream Camp," and I can confirm that confidence trumps all other attitudes in his techniques. Good point.

Could you elaborate more on your steps..? Do you not move whatsoever when you are "waiting" for this dream to "appear" ? I don't quite understand what you mean by "focus in front of you"... Do you clear your mind of everything else except your closed eyelids themselves? I would love to try this method out, but to be honest, I have almost no idea what you are even talking about.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I was going to say that no, I was speaking more of the mundane brain function that is memory than something as esoteric as prajna, but now that you mention it, the combination of memory and awareness in a high-end LD is all about prajna! Definitely food for thought; thanks for mentioning.

I am thinking they are connected , even though in Vajrayana and Abhidharma they are said to be different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidharma-kosa

Wisdom in Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See also the Prajna Paramita text, which has been noted by quantum physics, which ties to LDs in a Matrix like way.

Could you elaborate more on your steps..? Do you not move whatsoever when you are "waiting" for this dream to "appear" ? I don't quite understand what you mean by "focus in front of you"... Do you clear your mind of everything else except your closed eyelids themselves? I would love to try this method out, but to be honest, I have almost no idea what you are even talking about.

You are way over complicating it if you are not understanding. Yes you clear your mind but not needed if you would like and focus in front of you, of course you would have your eye lids closed when sleeping and that is it, you would notice that you get pushed back as thoughts come to you which is what distracts you and next thing you know you wake up in the morning, so try to avoid losing focus in front of you by getting lost in thought.

See also the Prajna Paramita text, which has been noted by quantum physics, which ties to LDs in a Matrix like way.

I have noticed that lots of things found in Buddhism seems to be connected with our modern quantum physics. It is as though meditation takes you to a quantum level of our reality.

I meditate daily by the way and I definitely recommend it to anyone for relaxation, wisdom or even for a psychedelic type trip. To me it is twice the marijuana high when I get into its deeper level and a great substitute for it.



Good luck.

Originally Posted by elucid

I have noticed, that some of the "techniques" that people have listed such as DILD, MILD, are not really techniques that I would say that you can get better at, its more like a good luck if you had one type of things. But this technique is one that you can raise your level of skill at and its reliability and it is even for beginners.

Just would like to thank Elucid. This is an interesting Foray . TRY it folks, and let us know your results. I tried it last night and no LDs but some strange Phenom... Jury still out for me. I have been bouncing around some Foundation stuff w Sageous, and a SIMPLE , reliable way is the style for me for the Path part (method) - my Mind implodes if i try "complex" methods.

Foundation (Daytime training), then (PM methods) Path, then Result (LD) is the re-order i am working on (all the ILDS put the Cart B4 Horse for Me).

Yeah, KEEPING your MIND on the Blue-Orange Pixels IS THE MEDITATION in this method. Shamatha training can assist this (you can learn this at home). Keeping your Mind on any Object is Simply said but HARD to Do as Tim Post notes in the above Video and Sageous has said. I had a hard time Re-Placing my mind on those darn PIXELS last night !!! haha

I had a hard time Re-Placing my mind on those darn PIXELS last night !!! haha

One thing that I have focused is that focus feels really good. So that should make it really easy to focus since doing so will make you feel good.

Originally Posted by elucid

One thing that I have focused is that focus feels really good. So that should make it really easy to focus since doing so will make you feel good.

Do you mean While you are doing it , or later as an Effect (like next day) ?

If you mean WHILE , then, that is very interesting hmmmm....

Do you mean While you are doing it , or later as an Effect (like next day) ?

If you mean WHILE , then, that is very interesting hmmmm....

While I am doing it, my feel goes to ecstasy.

I did something sorta like this. Ive been trying unsucessfully for a long time to have a lucid dream, and one night a few weeks ago I just layed there and I just remained aware of everything. I layed there and kept reminding myself that im laying here and teling my body to sleep. I could feel my body start to.. "buzz"? It felt weird. Like I was sleeping but my mind was still aware. But something happened and I lost it. I tried again but I never got it right.

Also completely off topic - the "chat" at the top wont seem to work. ^^^

Also completely off topic - the "chat" at the top wont seem to work. ^^^

Even if I could do something, I would need some administrative privileges. So that should be reported to one of the moderators.

Good luck

I'm trying this tonight.

elucid please rewrite you tutorial and please make it educational and more like a step by step process (because i like your tutorial)

Originally Posted by elucid

I have not really took the time to measure the time it took to enter a dream.





I cant quite detail stages, but I can recall experiences of entering dreams. The first and most common stage that happens to me and I mention "me" as I believe it is different for everyone is that I leave my body, some have mentioned SP but I have gone through SP only once, other times I have just gone "Out of body" as it is called though it may not truly be out of body, then get into a pixelated world or a black& white world/dream and from there either the pixels start spinning where I get a scene change and different dream or that they start to clear out and become a quality dream.

I also believe that the experiences differ person to person.



All of those are theories, and they can be proven otherwise, how so? Just test out the opposite of what they say.



When you close your eyes, you should see some oranges/bluish pixel like things moving/buzzing, just focus on them, basically they are called behind the eye lids.

I understand the doubts that may occur but the best thing to do, even though it is fun to question and talk about it is to get it into action by "testing" it out. If it were some placebo type of a technique or that it was a lie, then I would be scared of questioning it or testing it, but I clearly tell you to test it to the fullest and question it to the fullest.


Have fun.

this is not a new technique

Originally Posted by elucid

I meditate daily by the way and I definitely recommend it to anyone for relaxation, wisdom or even for a psychedelic type trip. To me it is twice the marijuana high when I get into its deeper level and a great substitute for it.



Good luck.

Any suggestions on reading material or classes for someone new to meditation?

Yeah this does sound like a simple wild, but non the less ill try it out tonight! good job!

I have tried this before. Actually it was my first few attempts b/c it was the simplist thing I could do to get a WILD. And I think it will work if you have awesome (like really really good) focus+relaxation skills, I don't.

Personally I either:
1. fell asleep
2. couldn't fall asleep after like 30-40 min and gave up
3. got very itchy, uncomfortable, bored and gave up

This is more of a simplification of all the WILD explanations. Also, I'd probably classify it as some other state similar to lucid dreaming (OBE, astral projection, or somthin), bc there is no way you can magically jump in to REM without being really really tired (nap time) or waiting for a few hours for longer REM cycles.

Also, it does have one point to take, it helps to keep your eyes still during WILDs (aka focused on one pt, as if you were unconcious); I heard this from a few random posts Ive read.

One of the (few) lucids I've had would probably classify under this method. The best I can describe it is going directly from looking at the play of light behind your eyelids into a dream. Prior to drifting off I was also focusing on the details of my expectant dream, setting, etc. I hadn't slept in a while though, and I think being able to fall asleep almost immediately was a pretty big factor.

Yes, I can rewrite the tutorial, but it being so simple should be very similar to the first post.

The FID: Focus into dream method of attaining lucidity:

1. When you are rested on your bed, choose a comfortable position and close your eyes.
2. Focus by staring in front of you which should be behind your closed eye lids. You should see some sparkling lights, blue-orange colors.
Try to not lose focus. (by getting into thoughts).

3. The rest is just waiting for the dream to come.
4. Once in the dream, stay focused on the dream scene and enjoy your lucid.

Hope this is a little more simpler and educational than the first one.

Any suggestions on reading material or classes for someone new to meditation?

A fun thing that I like to do when doing something is doing the reading after reading and comparing my experience with the ones in the books. Meditation is really simple, though there are variations, they are minor changes.

What I recommend is what are you trying to achieve with meditation. If you are trying to achieve relaxation, then try just sitting in the meditation posture and getting rid of all desires. Desires such as the desire to think, blink, control, etc. Of course your desire to move is already out of the question since your just sitting. This should result in you not thinking, or trying to control your emotions. A way to get rid of these desires is to just stay quite.

Then there are meditation which increase focus. Sati Vipassana is mindfulness meditation which include focusing on your breath when meditating or focusing in front of your closed eye lids.

And I do not have any recommendation for meditation since I myself have not read any book for meditation.




Good luck.

Sounds too good to be true.

But I shall try, don't fully understand what you mean when you say 'which should be behind your closed eye lids'. So basically, I just close my eyes and look straight forward, keeping my eyes still?

I just close my eyes and look straight forward, keeping my eyes still?

Yep, and the part where you got confused is referring to what your focus is on, which should be behind your closed eye lids.

Originally Posted by 1234567

Even so, he implies that you do the WILD without prior sleep. That obviously isn't going to work well, even if the person thinks it will.

I've had great success WILDing without prior sleep. One just has to workout in order to be tired enough to reach sleep paralysis quickly.

Night time WILDing is not difficult and is nowhere near impossible, you just need a good exercise schedule. As long as you have that, you're gold.

well tell us how you manage to wild and how much time pre sleep wild takes

Originally Posted by wana

well tell us how you manage to wild and how much time pre sleep wild takes

Good job on making me feel unwelcome.

As I stated above, In order for one to have success with bedtime WILDIng they should workout daily. I do just that. I longboard and jog. When I do these two things I don't stop when I get tired, I push myself to and past my limit. When I don't exercise, I can't WILD at night -- it's as simple as that.

As for keeping track of time, or how long it takes to hit a dream, I'm too busy 'sleeping', making sure I am aware of myself to care. Also, I am contantly deepening my state of awareness.