ADA: Right or Wrong for Lucidity?

**JoannaB** · 06-18-2013 11:27 PM

Actually, I know exactly what KingYoshi is talking about when he talks of this feeling that it is a dream, even though rationally you may not have quite realized it yet. It's like you have noticed stuff, which adds up to it being a dream, but you have not added up all the parts yet, and so if someone asked you why did you know it was a dream when you did, you might not be able to explain it, but of course there were reasons because you noticed stuff that only made sense as a dream.

**tofur** · 06-19-2013 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Actually, I know exactly what KingYoshi is talking about when he talks of this feeling that it is a dream, even though rationally you may not have quite realized it yet. It's like you have noticed stuff, which adds up to it being a dream, but you have not added up all the parts yet, and so if someone asked you why did you know it was a dream when you did, you might not be able to explain it, but of course there were reasons because you noticed stuff that only made sense as a dream.

see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer.

**KingYoshi** · 06-19-2013 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sageous

Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts...

Sorry, Zoth; just sayin'

Originally Posted by tofur

see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer.

More like bringing them together as one. The mind is complex and very abstract. Its hard to describe these things with words. Its more of a feeling.

**Sageous** · 06-19-2013 03:52 AM

I think JoannaB and King Yoshi have this pegged, but I had an additional thought:

Originally Posted by tofur

see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer.

That may be exactly my problem with "natural" awareness training, because driving you to become just a witness may be an unintended and unwanted side-effect of awareness-only training.

Yes, becoming only that witness makes the dream world more stable, but it also makes it more real, and your dream less lucid. As King Yoshi said, you must remember that the observer part of you and the witness part of you (and the dreaming mind part of you, for that matter) are all you, and must be smoothly combined into one self-aware "You." If you only witness, then you sacrifice the union of all aspects of "You," and risk lapsing back into a NLD or waking up.

However:

sounds like intuition to me, maybe someone who's more intuitive by nature is more adept at LD'ing, picks it up quicker with less effort?

I think of it less natural intuition than a "sense" built into your consciousness that can sort of put it all together, at least at a very low, almost subliminal level. This sense need not be natural; indeed, I have a feeling that, except in children, this sense is far more often artificially infused through training than it is natural.

Perhaps that is the real value of ADA, as it both teaches you to have a special sense of your surroundings while, thanks to the constant practice with LD'ing in mind, building powerful expectations of having LD's. So, come dreamtime, your unconscious is already hard at work fulfilling your expectations while your ADA "habit" has got your DC "you" paying slightly elevated attention. Then, once the "feeling" is in place, your self-awareness and memory kick in and Bam!, you're lucid.

Hmm... Did I just turn back on myself to accidentally summarize the real value of ADA as LD'ing tool? Seems to all make sense...or am I just babbling?

**KingYoshi** · 06-19-2013 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think JoannaB's and King Yoshi have this pegged, but I had an additional thought:

That may be exactly my problem with "natural" awareness training, because driving you to become just a witness may be an unintended and unwanted side-effect of awareness-only training.

Yes, becoming only that witness makes the dream world more stable, but it also makes it more real, and your dream less lucid. As King Yoshi said, you must remember that the observer part of you and the witness part of you (and the dreaming mind part of you, for that matter) are all you, and must be smoothly combined into one self-aware "You." If you only witness, then you sacrifice the union of all aspects of "You," and risk lapsing back into a NLD or waking up.

However:

I think of it less natural intuition than a "sense" built into your consciousness that can sort of put it all together, at least at a very low, almost subliminal level. This sense need not be natural; indeed, I have a feeling that, except in children, this sense is far more often artificially infused through training than it is natural.

Perhaps that is the real value of ADA, as it both teaches you to have a special sense of your surroundings while, thanks to the constant practice with LD'ing in mind, building powerful expectations of having LD's. So, come dreamtime, your unconscious is already hard at work fulfilling your expectations while your ADA "habit" has got your DC "you" paying slightly elevated attention. Then, once the "feeling" is in place, your self-awareness and memory kick in and Bam!, you're lucid.

Hmm... Did I just turn back on myself to accidentally summarize the real value of ADA as LD'ing tool? Seems to all make sense...or am I just babbling?

I know how, but I don't understand why the argument got escalated in the first place because its not like we are THAT far off from looking at this the same way. This sounds like you are getting it and made valid statements. As for the "more real" part you mentioned, that doesn't mean you have to be less lucid. I don't get into BD, but I simply pretend as if the dream state is another reality (to an extent). By using the dream world to my advantage, I'm able to accomplish my goals and hold on to my lucidity no matter how real it seems. The ADA helps you know its a dream and hold on to your lucidity even if you aren't actively trying to remember this fact. I'm not saying its a magical cure for every dream problem, but it helps out and boosts in a ridiculous amount of areas. These days, it is the only technique I use for lucid dreaming besides DJing. Not counting DEILD chains, of course. I'm not saying its for everyone, but there is no way it can be detrimental to lucid dreaming.