Thread: ADA: Right or Wrong for Lucidity?

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Boys, calm down please, I would like to continue to be able to respect both of you.

I'm always at peace, JoannaB, thank you! I do get stubborn on occasion, but I'll try to shake it off. Sorry, again, for my contribution to the annoying disruption.

I hope the conversation can continue, somehow.

Well, I had a part in dragging you into this, so I'll give it a shot.

Perhaps a change in terminology is in order. It has been proposed that "mindfulness" could be used, but this is also a blanket term. Many are familiar with the Buddhist Vipassana meditation and "mindfulness throughout daily activities", but there is a much older and more complete system (5,000 years old) of Yoga (not the exercise), which teaches mindfulness of the environment, the ten senses, the body, the breath, and ever more inward to thoughts, the subconscious, Dream Yoga, and Yoga Nidra. The idea is similar, the moment is observed ever more precisely and things are set aside as being "not self".

I was under the impression that the majority of people here are using a form of awareness that is merely environmental with perhaps some thought observing mixed in, as many posts seem to suggest, so all day awareness seemed an appropriate term for this and for other reasons. Regardless however, I suppose we should be clear in each case which form of awareness or mindfulness we are referring to. Perhaps using the addition "mindfulness of ....." will suffice.

The potential of this thread is to understand the mechanisms which allow for certain of these practices to bring about lucidity or to hinder it, and because of this I hope that people will share their views on any or all of these. I have had most success with Dream Yoga, but I have read Sageous's self awareness method and it seems to work without the need for a constant emphasis on dreaming. Zoth has mentioned mindfulness and seems to think that it has a positive impact on lucidity. I'd be interested in hearing more of this. Why these things work is worth exploring, so that we can as lucid dreamers make our practices more efficient.

For what it's worth:

I just read the OP of King Yoshi's ADA/DILD tutorial and it seems it lines up nicely with the ADA as noted in my OP here. Also it pretty much parallels with "ADA" as its been practiced in the form of mindfulness and other meditative practices for centuries; no difference whatsoever, except that it is attached as a technique to LD'ing. So yeah, I guess we were debating, specifically, a portion of King Yoshi's DILD technique... had I known, I would have not done the thread or at least warned you (king Yoshi) of its posting. But here we are, regardless, and after a night's sleep I still think there is much to be discussed...

So your defenses are quite welcome, as they ever were. Only now in my opinion they are directly on topic -- whether I was aware that you coined ADA or not, since it seems I knew exactly what I was talking about in the OP, regardless of my ignorance of the DV-specific history.

As it turns out, we never needed to have that exchange last night ... I should have taken the high road and stopped to read your tutorial then, I guess. My bad; it was late and I was very tired. Water under the bridge?

Originally Posted by CosmicIron

I know it sounds unbelievable, and I'm not throwing out conclusions of any sort. I do hope though people can think about the questions I raised more carefully before dismissing them entirely. After all, lucid dreaming is a phenomena we don't yet fully understand, and there haven't been much significant breakthroughs in recent years.

I re-read your post and when I think back to the couple of lucids I've had so far, all have been DILDS, and they were spontaneous. I didn't see something and think "thats not possible, this must be a dream". It was like BAM, randomly totally awake, and THEN the "holy s#*#, this is a dream". What made me snap out of it I can't say, there was plenty going on there before hand to tip me off and in one I became lucid in the most realistic setting possible in that dream. So basically, the awareness showed up after the random moment of awakening, not before. So I guess the trick is to figure out what causes that change over

Originally Posted by Meskhetyw

Well, I had a part in dragging you into this, so I'll give it a shot.

Perhaps a change in terminology is in order. It has been proposed that "mindfulness" could be used, but this is also a blanket term. Many are familiar with the Buddhist Vipassana meditation and "mindfulness throughout daily activities", but there is a much older and more complete system (5,000 years old) of Yoga (not the exercise), which teaches mindfulness of the environment, the ten senses, the body, the breath, and ever more inward to thoughts, the subconscious, Dream Yoga, and Yoga Nidra. The idea is similar, the moment is observed ever more precisely and things are set aside as being "not self".

I was under the impression that the majority of people here are using a form of awareness that is merely environmental with perhaps some thought observing mixed in, as many posts seem to suggest, so all day awareness seemed an appropriate term for this and for other reasons. Regardless however, I suppose we should be clear in each case which form of awareness or mindfulness we are referring to. Perhaps using the addition "mindfulness of ....." will suffice.

The potential of this thread is to understand the mechanisms which allow for certain of these practices to bring about lucidity or to hinder it, and because of this I hope that people will share their views on any or all of these. I have had most success with Dream Yoga, but I have read Sageous's self awareness method and it seems to work without the need for a constant emphasis on dreaming. Zoth has mentioned mindfulness and seems to think that it has a positive impact on lucidity. I'd be interested in hearing more of this. Why these things work is worth exploring, so that we can as lucid dreamers make our practices more efficient.

That would be an interesting change of subject, I think, and actually it might help, in that in describing other forms of awareness in a positive vein, we might open make some headway. That said:

As I developed simple practices to build self-awareness, I came up with a sort of reverse-RC (as noted in my WILD class as a RRC). Instead of taking the RC path of asking yourself if you are dreaming, you ask yourself where you just were, where you are, and where you will be shortly, and you do so with a real sense of wonder about your interaction with your local reality as you did/will do these things. I go into greater detail on the exercise here, if you're curious.

Why does this help? Because it establishes a sense of your involvement in reality, that you have an effect on it, and it on you. If you can develop this sense into a sort of intuition, come dream time that sense will help you to intuitively accept the nature of your dream as a part of your self, and from that will come an easier path to lucidity and control without confusing preconceptions. I go into much more detail on this in the class, but essentially I'm saying that if you become intuitively aware of your interaction with reality, and are able to honestly ponder your interaction with it, you will have no trouble recognizing your presence in a dream, and remembering that the dream is you ... the rest is sheer lucidity. That's extremely brief, I know, but I'm pressed for time right now ... hopefully others will chime in?

Regarding changing the term: I think for the sake of argument that King Yoshi pretty much nailed what we were describing with ADA; it would be difficult to use something else, even when discussing the "merely environmental" ADA that seems to be prevalent on these forums. Though mindfulness is a good term, it does have a religious ring to it, I think, and it also encompasses so many different types -- and grades -- of practice, we might do more harm than good using it. Can't think of another term other than MEADA, though!

Originally Posted by tofur

I re-read your post and when I think back to the couple of lucids I've had so far, all have been DILDS, and they were spontaneous. I didn't see something and think "thats not possible, this must be a dream". It was like BAM, randomly totally awake, and THEN the "holy s#*#, this is a dream". What made me snap out of it I can't say, there was plenty going on there before hand to tip me off and in one I became lucid in the most realistic setting possible in that dream. So basically, the awareness showed up after the random moment of awakening, not before. So I guess the trick is to figure out what causes that change over

Most if not all of my DILD's work this way as well. I think personally that this sort of "spontaneous" lucidity isn't really so spontaneous at all. Rather, it is a result of your waking-life attitudes (i.e., you're open to being lucid in the first place) and perhaps expectations you might not be consciously harboring ... in other words, you desired lucidity, and your unconscious obliged.

As I think CosmicIron already mentioned, in that the mechanics involved in the forming of this spontaneous DILD are still not too clear, but I truly believe they lie not in mysterious functions of the dreaming mind, but in the nature and attitudes of the waking-life consciousness. Developing that attitude ought to be possible then.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Water under the bridge?

I hope so I know Sageous has spent considerable time answering my questions and numerous other's questions and I see that KingYoshi has answered numerous questions as well over the years. They have that in common: attempting to help others on their quest for regular lucidity. I have not practiced ADA or at least not as described in the OP but I would like to add that further debate on this could potentially come to a consensus on what will help those seeking regular lucid dreams. Most methods related to ADA, awareness, mindfulness, etc, require a good amount of time and dedication and it would be good to know if they are beneficial to lucid dreaming if that is all that someone is looking for in practicing the methods.

Originally Posted by Sageous

For what it's worth:

I just read the OP of King Yoshi's ADA/DILD tutorial and it seems it lines up nicely with the ADA as noted in my OP here. Also it pretty much parallels with "ADA" as its been practiced in the form of mindfulness and other meditative practices for centuries; no difference whatsoever, except that it is attached as a technique to LD'ing. So yeah, I guess we were debating, specifically, a portion of King Yoshi's DILD technique... had I known, I would have not done the thread or at least warned you (king Yoshi) of its posting. But here we are, regardless, and after a night's sleep I still think there is much to be discussed...

So your defenses are quite welcome, as they ever were. Only now in my opinion they are directly on topic -- whether I was aware that you coined ADA or not, since it seems I knew exactly what I was talking about in the OP, regardless of my ignorance of the DV-specific history.

As it turns out, we never needed to have that exchange last night ... I should have taken the high road and stopped to read your tutorial then, I guess. My bad; it was late and I was very tired. Water under the bridge?

I could've taken the higher road as well. Even though I try not to bring it to the forums, I have a fiery, competitive personality that sometimes bleeds through in a non-competitive atmosphere. Even so, I never felt any hostility toward you and looked at the situation as more of a misunderstanding. Though, I still felt you should have handled/prepared for this thread differently prior to making it. So, I wasn't exactly going to give any free passes. Its all good though.

On the note about mindfulness...mindfulness deals with spirituality, self discovery, etc. All that nonsense is left out of ADA, this is simply for lucid dreaming. There are many differences in the mindset that you have going into ADA. In the way it was designed, its made specifically for lucid dreaming and is 100% effective. I have yet to go 1-on-1 with a dreamer that didn't have success with the technique.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I hope so I know Sageous has spent considerable time answering my questions and numerous other's questions and I see that KingYoshi has answered numerous questions as well over the years. They have that in common: attempting to help others on their quest for regular lucidity. I have not practiced ADA or at least not as described in the OP but I would like to add that further debate on this could potentially come to a consensus on what will help those seeking regular lucid dreams. Most methods related to ADA, awareness, mindfulness, etc, require a good amount of time and dedication and it would be good to know if they are beneficial to lucid dreaming if that is all that someone is looking for in practicing the methods.

It IS very beneficial. Like I previously stated, I have yet to go 1 on 1 with a dreamer who has not had success with ADA. If you have any problems while practicing the technique, come to me, and I guarantee you we will hammer out success. This thing works. I've proven it with my own success as well as the success of the countless dreamers in my thread and in my PM box. Its not like something that is on the fence about whether it works or not, which is why I see no point in this thread. It works. Period.

Originally Posted by KingYoshi

It IS very beneficial. Like I previously stated, I have yet to go 1 on 1 with a dreamer who has not had success with ADA. If you have any problems while practicing the technique, come to me, and I guarantee you we will hammer out success. This thing works. I've proven it with my own success as well as the success of the countless dreamers in my thread and in my PM box. Its not like something that is on the fence about whether it works or not, which is why I see no point in this thread. It works. Period.

Okay, then let's try to give the thread a point. Assuming that we all accept that your ADA technique works, can you, per Meskhetyw's suggestion above, tell us why you think it works? Maybe then we can get to the core of what works/what doesn't work, and what mental processes are involved... okay, we might at least head for that core!

yoshi whats your take on spontaneous lucidity? where there's no apparent lead up to it in terms of heightened awareness, you go from ordinary dream consciousness to awake in the dream randomly and for no obvious reason. What do you think is responsible for that? are most of your dilds like that?

Ok, quickly before the Braves game starts. I'm going to include excerpts from the written technique as well. Simply because it is faster. I'll go ahead and go into in-depth, "guru" mode since you guys are twisting my arm . I usually don't got this in-depth outside of a PM question/assistance or my actual thread. You bastards j/k .

ADA for achieving lucidity:
"If you don't have good awareness in waking life, how do you expect to have good awareness in your dreams?"

"At first, you will have to force yourself to be completely aware of your surroundings. The idea, is to try and become aware of absolutely EVERYTHING around you. After practicing ADA for a while, you will start to become aware of theses subtleties without forcing yourself. As you practice more and more, you will notice the subtleties being noticed quite naturally with little effort. Eventually, you will get to where you are no longer practicing All Day Awareness, you are actually living it. It will become natural for you. Once you have reached this level of awareness, the dream itself becomes your dream sign. Every thing you notice within the dream will become your RC."

Building awareness of your surroundings in waking life carries over into the dream state. So, once you get to the point that you are practicing ADA regularly and naturally, the same is going to happen in your dreams. Sageous, you stated earlier that everyone already has awareness in their dreams. While that is partially true, their level of awareness is the same in their dreams as in waking life. In waking life, if you look at a wall and simply see the wall in the "take it for granted" sense, then you are going to do the same in your dream. In an actual dream, however, that wall is nothing more than a creation of your mind. It can be solid, liquid, gas, or nothing at all, because it is truly nothing but a thought. With ADA, you get out of this "day walking" by increasing your awareness in waking life. You are noticing everything and recognizing that wall for what it truly is. Your mind learns "this wall is a wall BECAUSE I am in reality right now" without even thinking specifically about. Your entire environment is becoming your RC. Not just walls, but everything around you. In a dream, once you increase that awareness, your environment is not going to "feel" the same. Nothing around you is grounded in reality and you are training yourself to notice this difference. This isn't something that can be found in books or even in the knowledge of your average genius. Its something that only a lucid dreamer can understand. Its abstract and needs to be experienced to fully understand what I mean when I say "it feels like a dream." ADA provides that ability. I've been at this for a long time and not in the same sense as most, as I have been using this in the specialty format (recreational lucid dreaming only). I don't doubt there are other benefits for mindfulness and awareness, but I'm purposely not allowing my body or mind to take advantage of these benefits or even acknowledge them for that matter. This, I 100% believe, is the key to being permanently lucid.

Day walking excerpt for those who don't know/understand my terminology:
"Lets take for instance, you are walking your dog down the street. Be aware of everything around you. Hear your footsteps against the pavement, feel the cushion in the sole of your shoes contract with each step. Feel the muscles working in your legs as you stroll along, see your eyelids blinking, hear the sound of your breathing, feel your lungs expanding and your chest moving as you breath in and out. Smell the air as you travel through the neighborhood. Does it change? Does every breeze smell the exact same? Feel your tongue as it casually rests on the bottom of your mouth. Every structure around you has a shadow...do you notice them? Hear the pitter patter of the dogs feet, do you hear him panting? Most people hold the leash and walk down the sidewalk completely lost in their thoughts. Most don't even notice the control they are using to power their own legs.

You are sitting at the computer doing math homework. Feel the keys below your fingertips, notice how effortlessly your fingers fly from one key to the next without even having to think about the upcoming letter/keystroke. While you were reading the previous two sentences, did you take for granted the blinking process. What all sounds have you heard while you have been reading this tutorial? What does the air smell like? You shouldn't have to smell right now to answer the question. Have you noticed the shadows of everything around you? How about your lungs? Have you noticed them expanding and your chest moving. Have you noticed the air traveling up through your windpipe, across your tongue and passed your lips?

These are just a few of the millions of small details that the average person takes for granted or doesn't even bother to notice. It is almost like everyone is sleep walking while they are awake. If you don't have good awareness in waking life, how do you expect to have good awareness in your dreams?"

ADA for Recall:
"Not only does awareness help strive toward lucidity, but it also helps with recall. As you continue to practice ADA, it will start to carry over in your dreams. Even if you aren't getting lucid yet, you will start paying more attention to the dream environment. Making mental notes of what you see, hear, feel, taste, and smell. This will help make dreams much easier to recall upon waking up from sleep. It will also help you recall more details from your dream. Soon you will be having detailed journal entries that read almost like a story as opposed to a scattered series of events that jump around from place to place."

Increasing awareness in waking life increases awareness in your dream, we have established that. If you are naturally paying more attention to the dream and noticing things around you, you are implanting those memories and things you notice more firmly into your mind. Upon waking up, your increased awareness in that previous dream has provided you with enhanced recall. Think about it like this, you are at a bar, drunk, and sleepy. Your awareness is going to be shit. As soon as you walk outside you write down everything you remember about the table of people right beside you who didn't interact with. You are going to remember almost nothing. Now, the same thing happens to a sober guy who is a normal human and "day walking" like the rest of the population. He is probably going to recall a bit more than the drunk guy, but maybe not. Now, take a guy who was in the bar practicing ADA the entire time. He is going to have an enormous advantage in recall of that table if he was, in fact, practicing ADA correctly. Ridiculous amounts of detail are possible. The brain is powerful enough to have photographic memory and store those memories. Not saying ADA is going to give you photographic memory, but it is, 100%, going to enhance recall.

ADA for Dream Control:

Take everything you have read and keep it in mind as I speak here. Your awareness has increased from ADA practice, therefore your mind understands much better than a typical dreamer that these things in your dreams, all of these things around you are nothing but creations of your mind. The better you get at ADA the more your mind naturally understands and accepts these things. This allows the success rate of your techniques for dream manipulation to blast through the roof. Most dreamers look at something and say, "Its a dream so I can control this with my mind." Saying it and even thinking it, is not the same as truly 100% believing it and expecting it. So, while at times it does work to say something out loud and use another similar trick to get dream control to work, ADA improves the root of why these tricks work. With ADA, instead of saying these things, your training your brain to know and 100% understand these things at all times. It helps boost those little tips and tricks that we all use to manipulate the dream (without us even noticing why things are working better and more frequently). ADA doesn't help provide better tricks, it helps increase the effectiveness of ALL tricks. My dream control and recall and at a much higher level these days than before I started ADA. You can see the impact that ADA made on my dreams by looking through my old dream journal from beginning to end (not recommended, it is A LOT of dreams, but you can take my word for it ).

ADA for prolonging the dream experience, staying lucid & stabilization:

The number one way to prolong a lucid dream (aside from time dilation/manipulation if you believe in that), is staying immersed within the dream state and keeping "disconnected" from your actual body. If you have advanced awareness, you are always going to be more locked-in to the dream environment than someone who doesn't. Your awareness and ADA carries into this dream state and keeps you constantly involved in dream activity, because noticing your environment better IS dream activity. On top of that, your awareness boost allows you to keep a much firmer grip on your lucidity. If you have great awareness from ADA practice, you are going to be "feeling" the dream at all times. You are "resonating" with your environment and experience as you are exploring your dream. Its much harder to forget you are lucid even while playing into the "dreams hands." By this, I am referring to my own style of dream exploration. I'm always playing along with my dream plots and treating the dream world as if it is another alternate, true life (even though I don't believe this or get into BD aspects). This allows for my dreams to play out as more coherent adventures and create consistencies from dream to dream. Making it possible to continue dream plots and overarching stories from dream to dream. Its why my DJ is set-up in dream series' (kind of like tv series') and I'm able to create an epic that spans across many dreams.

Stabilization is nothing more than a form of dream control. So, see dream control for why it also helps boost stabilization.

Now, you aren't going to start ADA and immediately become a dream master, but you WILL notice results soon. The better you get at ADA and the more natural you become at performing it, the better it will help in all of these areas. If you can get to the point that you are in a constant All Day Awareness state of mind, you will become forever lucid. That is my goal, but I'm a long way from that.

Edit: @tofur - even for someone who doesn't practice ADA, they can randomly "feel" that dream state. It just feels like they are in a dream, so they realize they are. You don't even notice this most of the time, your mind has experience the waking state and dream state your whole life. You are walking around and, BAM your lucid for no reason. Well, whether you realize it or not, your mind figured out it was a dream simply because it knew it wasn't reality. ADA and awareness helps to make this a regular thing. Almost all of my DILDs are because I just suddenly know I'm in a dream for no other apparent reason than that "this feels like a dream." Everyone has the ability to just randomly become lucid, its how many of us became lucid without prior knowledge to what lucid dreaming even was.

On the note about mindfulness...mindfulness deals with spirituality, self discovery, etc. All that nonsense is left out of ADA

You should try doing some research before stating things like that. They couldn't be more far than the truth. As I stated before, I do think the technique works, but I'm more interested on why it works, and I thought that was what we were discussing.

Besides, let's clear one thing here:

It's not quite simple to determine the cause for lucidity in a DILD. In fact, it can be many times impossible. Spontaneous lucidity isn't something random: it actually refers to things like insight, some memory or event altering your perspective, and this doesn't need to happen in a conscious level. The areas of the brain active during a lucid dream don't turn themselves "on" just because.

Your awareness has increased from ADA practice, therefore your mind understands much better than a typical dreamer that these things in your dreams, all of these things around you are nothing but creations of your mind.

What are we defining as awareness here?

Sageous, you stated earlier that everyone already has awareness in their dreams. While that is partially true, their level of awareness is the same in their dreams as in waking life.

No it's not. You can't define awareness as a constant degree of sensory perception. Or if we are talking about other meaning for awareness, it is isn't constant or immutable.

Upon waking up, your increased awareness in that previous dream has provided you with enhanced recall.

Completely disagree. The fact that you don't remember your dreams is not because you aren't aware of them. Notice that I was the person who mentioned "better recall" with ADA, but you don't backup your argument with anything that seems valid.

Not saying ADA is going to give you photographic memory, but it is, 100%, going to enhance recall.

How do you know it's not other factor? Your topic seems full of assumptions based on anecdotal evidence. There's no harm in believing something, but being 100% sure? Hmmm....

I hope you don't view this reply as a personal attack King Yoshi, because the only interest I have in this thread is healthy discussion (even if it means you and I are going to disagree fiercely), but your position seems to rely on assumptions based on your experience.

On the other hand, I might be talking like we're all a bunch of scientists that forgot to test their techniques in the laboratory....I must say that I can't help but think that the majority of lucid dreaming techniques that are invented might even work, but why? No one knows lol, because besides the old techniques like MILD, reality checks, visualization, tholey method, none of the others were actually tested.

Originally Posted by Zoth

You should try doing some research before stating things like that. They couldn't be more far than the truth.

Besides, let's clear one thing here:

It's not quite simple to determine the cause for lucidity in a DILD. In fact, it can be many times impossible. Spontaneous lucidity isn't something random: it actually refers to things like insight, some memory or event altering your perspective, and this doesn't need to happen in a conscious level. The areas of the brain active during a lucid dream don't turn themselves "on" just because.

See, I don't need to do the research because it has already been done. Its already up here (points at head). Long before these new age lucid dreamers. I've been here for a long time and been doing this for a long time, so slow down young one. THE definition of mindfulness' first line = "Mindfulness (Pali: sati,[1] Sanskrit: smṛti; also translated as awareness) is a spiritual or psychological faculty (indriya) that, according to the teaching of the Buddha, is considered to be of great importance in the path to enlightenment ."

Its a Buddhist practice that I am SUPER familiar with. Whether your view of mindfulness is different from this, is none of my concern. Do not tell me I'm wrong because your version of mindfulness is different from the definition, lol. I don't believe in enlightenment, beings, or any spiritual things so I'm not going to go into mindfulness with you. I know what it is, and to me, everything except for its basic awareness is crap. Not saying its impossible, but I'm not into. I don't judge anyone who is and I still hold respect for them. I'm into things that other aren't so I understand.

As for your second part, WTF are you talking about? Of course it isn't random. Are you even reading my posts? Your mind is not randomly becoming lucid, it is feeling that you are in a dream as opposed to lucidity, whether you realize it or not. Your mind can distinguish reality from a dream, naturally. ADA helps you do this even more often. Its not random and nothing I ever said implied that I thought it was. C'mon Dream Guide.

Edit: Look Zoth, if you want to know what kind of awareness I'm talking about, GO READ MY TUTORIAL. It is explained in great detail. I just explained in great detail why and how ADA helps with recall and it IS awareness. Have you been practicing testing and experimenting with ADA in direct correlation to lucid dreaming for years? Do you have 100s and 100s of lucid dreams from using no other technique but ADA? This isn't nonsense I'm spitting, dude. This is research and experience.

No one knows why these techniques work? LOL. Sorry, bro, YOU don't know why they work. DOn't speak for everyone else. I get people lucid because I don't just tell them what to do, I explain why these things work. I don't lucid dream blindly, I figure out why something works and test it over and over and over again. No offense to the other DGs, but how in the fuck did you become a Dream Guide? This is coming from a former Dream Guide Leader. Sad.

Also, you discredited my statements that had backing and didn't even provide a reason. You said, "The fact that you don't remember your dreams is not because you aren't aware of them." And that is it, LMAO. Because you say it makes it true, even without explaining why? Who do you think you are? You are in the most important position on the site, as a Dream Guide, and you are sitting here spitting ridiculous nonsense as if you are a random noob troll? Wow, dude. Wow.

so slow down young one

Don't take this personally, but let's abstain from these particular comments, either directed to me, any other member, or even you. This is valid for everyone in this thread to make sure the discussion doesn't turn into a flaming war. Thanks

See, I don't need to do the research because it has already been done. I've been here for a long time and been doing this for a long time, so slow down young one. THE definition of mindfulness' first line = "Mindfulness (Pali: sati,[1] Sanskrit: smṛti; also translated as awareness) is a spiritual or psychological faculty (indriya) that, according to the teaching of the Buddha, is considered to be of great importance in the path to enlightenment ."

You're linking wikipedia as an argument for research? When I say research, I actually mean going beyond googling mindfulness. It isn't necessarily linked to spirituality. But you seem to only know the concept of mindfulness related to it. Once again, I encourage you to do some research

it is feeling that you are in a dream as opposed to lucidity, whether you realize it or not.

So you know it in an unconscious level? How do you backup this claim of yours? What is this feeling? Your mind knows it is a dream, but you don't? Then how do you know it knows?

Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts...

Sorry, Zoth; just sayin'

Actually, I know exactly what KingYoshi is talking about when he talks of this feeling that it is a dream, even though rationally you may not have quite realized it yet. It's like you have noticed stuff, which adds up to it being a dream, but you have not added up all the parts yet, and so if someone asked you why did you know it was a dream when you did, you might not be able to explain it, but of course there were reasons because you noticed stuff that only made sense as a dream.

Originally Posted by Zoth

Don't take this personally, but let's abstain from these particular comments, either directed to me, any other member, or even you. This is valid for everyone in this thread to make sure the discussion doesn't turn into a flaming war. Thanks



You're linking wikipedia as an argument for research? When I say research, I actually mean going beyond googling mindfulness. It isn't necessarily linked to spirituality. But you seem to only know the concept of mindfulness related to it. Once again, I encourage you to do some research



So you know it in an unconscious level? How do you backup this claim of yours? What is this feeling? Your mind knows it is a dream, but you don't? Then how do you know it knows?

I know my mind knows because I have felt it. I have been living and breathing ADA and everything about it in regard to lucid dreaming for years. You haven't so you clearly do not understand the feeling of being in a completely normal dream when your mind begins to "feel" the dream and you become lucid. The dream state feels different in every sense than waking life once you get deep into ADA. How do I know? Because I am doing it and have been doing. Ask the 100s of dreamers that have become lucid from ADA. Everything I know about lucid dreaming including mindfulness aspects, come from experience. As in, I, personally, explore and researched these things from WITHIN THE DREAM. I didn't READ IT and assume it to be true. Do some research? How about you do some REAL research. As in, field research. As in, becoming lucid and explore these things from the source. Not reading what everyone else has written and suddenly claiming it to be true. Dreaming is not fact. There is NO written material from anyone that I will believe until lI prove it myself from with the dream world. Go do some REAL research rookie.

I love how you are trying to act responsible now that you are called out on your incompetence as a Dream Guide. This is no flame, its actually very disheartening to me.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts...

Sorry, Zoth; just sayin'

I'm clearly not talking to or about you. I know how old you are and how experienced you are. So, save these useless comments for the birds. New Age for lucid dreaming was not in the 70's in my eyes. Yours maybe, but not mine. So, I stand by it. And Zoth, is ignorant. Period. Not unintelligent, not stupid, but ignorant by its intended definition. Not by the insult.

How is a source other than your own experience within the dream, even valid to you? You seriously listen to someone talk about lucid dreaming and believe them without testing their knowledge or at the very least, testing how their knowledge could be true? Sorry, but my head is all I need for sources on lucid dreaming. If you think that is wrong, tell that to the 100s of dreamers who have used my experience along the way.

Ron Burgundy - That Escalated Quickly - YouTube

I think this thread suffers from the too many egos in one place problem, which is a shame because the topic is of great interest, and we have some smart people here who are deeply committed to helping others and getting it right. And the egos get in the way. Sigh.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Actually, I know exactly what KingYoshi is talking about when he talks of this feeling that it is a dream, even though rationally you may not have quite realized it yet. It's like you have noticed stuff, which adds up to it being a dream, but you have not added up all the parts yet, and so if someone asked you why did you know it was a dream when you did, you might not be able to explain it, but of course there were reasons because you noticed stuff that only made sense as a dream.

see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts...

Sorry, Zoth; just sayin'

Originally Posted by tofur

see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer.

More like bringing them together as one. The mind is complex and very abstract. Its hard to describe these things with words. Its more of a feeling.

Sorry JoannaB, I go one more ego burst, as the following must be said:

Originally Posted by KingYoshi

I'm clearly not talking to or about you. I know how old you are and how experienced you are. So, save these useless comments for the birds. New Age for lucid dreaming was not in the 70's in my eyes. Yours maybe, but not mine. So, I stand by it. And Zoth, is ignorant. Period. Not unintelligent, not stupid, but ignorant by its intended definition. Not by the insult.

You'd think I would have learned my lesson yesterday... okay, Yoshi, I promise to no longer toss your way any snarky comments, sarcasm, or anything even suggesting humor or -- God forgive me -- speaking to you as an equal. In other words I promise not to speak to you as you do to us, as you seem to take it very poorly. You spoke as if you were speaking to all of us, BTW, not so clearly at all.

How is a source other than your own experience within the dream, even valid to you? You seriously listen to someone talk about lucid dreaming and believe them without testing their knowledge or at the very least, testing how their knowledge could be true? Sorry, but my head is all I need for sources on lucid dreaming. If you think that is wrong, tell that to the 100s of dreamers who have used my experience along the way.

Did I say I believe everything I read? Did I say I never test new knowledge against my experience? I don't think so. And, if getting knowledge from places other than your head is no good, why are you here? Surely those 100's of satisfied dreamers should have learned on their own, right?

Sorry again for the interruption, folks; hopefully we can get back to work now.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

I think this thread suffers from the too many egos in one place problem, which is a shame because the topic is of great interest, and we have some smart people here who are deeply committed to helping others and getting it right. And the egos get in the way. Sigh.

I think the thread got back on the right track and is currently only slightly limping. Discussion of Tofur's question could also further right the ship. This is where I felt Zoth was coming from:

Originally Posted by Zoth

I hope you don't view this reply as a personal attack King Yoshi, because the only interest I have in this thread is healthy discussion (even if it means you and I are going to disagree fiercely), but your position seems to rely on assumptions based on your experience.

Already taken care of, and please keep snarky comments out of this thread.