Thread: I am really doing something wrong, but what?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I gave you two concrete suggestions and you apparently entirely blew them off. My answer is contained in those references: acquire/find them, study them, and apply what they teach. That's my final word here.

"Instead cultivate mindfulness of YOU, yourself, where you are, what you're doing, how you're reacting: very high level awareness"

You said this, but i don't quite understand.
Isn't this the ADA i'm actually doing, or is it different?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Not every 10 seconds, perhaps 10 minutes. And not deep long questioning, but fairly quick awareness boosts (of course holding the awareness is good if you can). Successful LDers go through very frequent RCs, sometimes hundreds if not more of them in a day on some days. The deep long questioning is probably OK at 5-6 per day on a maintenance schedule, but you need to make a break through so you need to turn up the intensity I think for a while.

From what you're saying, you're not doing traditional LaBerge, which includes PM exercises. I continue to recommend going full on LaBerge (and not doing ADA) to get your first LD.

What you're doing now clearly doesn't work for you, so try something different for a while.

For a change, I recommend reading The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and following at least the 4 preparatory practices, including daily meditation. Also, read DV threads on mindfulness, and perhaps some books. Ultimately to be continually mindful is to be continually self-aware, lucid in life to be lucid in dreams. Being lucid in life is its own reward, as well.

Here, again, in bold, are the two main recommendations I have for you. Actually, 3.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Here, again, in bold, are the two main recommendations I have for you. Actually, 3.

I did read the mindfulness thread by Ctharlhie
and he says by focusing on one of these things

1. Gravity
2. The feeling of clothing
3. Temperature
4. Feet on the floor
5. Ambient noise
6. Light sources
7. Visual snow/floaters
8. Tinnitus
9. Air Pressure (wind, breezes, draughts)
10. A sense of the breath

I can transform them into a big RC and maybe notice them in the dream, if i feel it
different i would be lucid.
But there is something i don't understand. why wouldn't
my ADA work for this?

Originally Posted by Iriba

So, lets suppose i try to focus all my senses at once, and i can barely
handle 10 minutes. after those 10 minutes i'm supposed to question my reality
and reality check after that? then i continue to focus?? so if that ever happens in a dream
i will never lose my awareness or i will be reality checking.

Exactly, I mean this is how the technique would work, assuming all factors remain constant. And that's the thing isn't it? Can you actually remain aware for 10 minutes straight, every time? You don't know because anything could happen that could divert your attention away from awareness. Think about it, right now you could say, "I'm going to remain aware for 10 minutes straight then reality check." Yet how do you know you won't get distracted a minute or two after you start practicing? You could start training awareness, and 30 seconds into the practice you could already be daydreaming about something else. 2 minutes after that you get bored and again you start thinking about something else. 45 seconds have passed and suddenly you see something or someone talks to you and that reminds you of another thing you needed doing, so again you start thinking about it, and so again you are distracted.

You see, this is why I said the 10 minute rule ain't particularly beneficial to train awareness because there are so many things that can distract us at any time during the day, and we don't know when they'll happen. It's unpredictable. On the other hand, if you were to reality check every 10 minutes or every hour, then you have something constant, a time limit which you can use as a reference to reality check. It's something that's predictable, you know the 10 minute mark is your goal, and you know when exactly those 10 minutes will have passed. Then, you can go around the day checking the time every few seconds or so just to know how much time is left before you reality check. If 10 minutes have passed, you'll apply the technique. Still, what happens if you are still aware by the time the 10 minutes have passed? Would you still reality check? Why? If you're still aware then what's the point in reality checking?

When we're in our dreams (non-lucid), most of the time we don't have the opportunity to check the time or estimate how much of it has passed. Most of the time we'll be devoted entirely to the plot that the dream has created.

Originally Posted by Wolfdog

Exactly, I mean this is how the technique would work, assuming all factors remain constant. And that's the thing isn't it? Can you actually remain aware for 10 minutes straight, every time? You don't know because anything could happen that could divert your attention away from awareness. Think about it, right now you could say, "I'm going to remain aware for 10 minutes straight then reality check." Yet how do you know you won't get distracted a minute or two after you start practicing? You could start training awareness, and 30 seconds into the practice you could already be daydreaming about something else. 2 minutes after that you get bored and again you start thinking about something else. 45 seconds have passed and suddenly you see something or someone talks to you and that reminds you of another thing you needed doing, so again you start thinking about it, and so again you are distracted.

You see, this is why I said the 10 minute rule ain't particularly beneficial to train awareness because there are so many things that can distract us at any time during the day, and we don't know when they'll happen. It's unpredictable. On the other hand, if you were to reality check every 10 minutes or every hour, then you have something constant, a time limit which you can use as a reference to reality check. It's something that's predictable, you know the 10 minute mark is your goal, and you know when exactly those 10 minutes will have passed. Then, you can go around the day checking the time every few seconds or so just to know how much time is left before you reality check. If 10 minutes have passed, you'll apply the technique. Still, what happens if you are still aware by the time the 10 minutes have passed? Would you still reality check? Why? If you're still aware then what's the point in reality checking?

When we're in our dreams (non-lucid), most of the time we don't have the opportunity to check the time or estimate how much of it has passed. Most of the time we'll be devoted entirely to the plot that the dream has created.

But, the way i should practice my awareness
i don't really like to focus all senses at once
i get distracted very easily or i get tired mentally
as you said it's very easy to distract when we focus all senses at once.
Would focus one of my senses also work?

Originally Posted by Iriba

I did read the mindfulness thread by Ctharlhie
and he says by focusing on one of these things

1. Gravity
2. The feeling of clothing
3. Temperature
4. Feet on the floor
5. Ambient noise
6. Light sources
7. Visual snow/floaters
8. Tinnitus
9. Air Pressure (wind, breezes, draughts)
10. A sense of the breath

I can transform them into a big RC and maybe notice them in the dream, if i feel it
different i would be lucid.
But there is something i don't understand. why wouldn't
my ADA work for this?

Notice I said THREAD, not TOP POST. There is a great discussion of ideas there, read all of it and think about it before responding back. Take a look at all of the references in all of the posts in that thread (note: some of them are *books*), and you will start to understand. Learn to read deeply, to question, research, etc.

That's why I recommended that you focus on one sense at a time. Devoting yourself to the complete and utter awareness of everything that's around you, all senses, is mad! Look at meditation, look at mindfulness practice. The teaching is first on awareness of breath. There are so many things that one could be aware of in one's breath. After it, we expand our awareness, but gradually. There's no point in trying to rush things out in the beginning because the challenge will become insurmountable. There's no hurry, if you focus on one sense at a time it'll actually be more beneficial to you than attempting everything at once. You'll progress faster, you'll have an easier time with it, and the results will be consistent. There's a time for everything; knowing when to increase the challenge, and knowing when to decrease it is influential in one's ability to progress.

Originally Posted by Wolfdog

When we're in our dreams (non-lucid), most of the time we don't have the opportunity to check the time or estimate how much of it has passed. Most of the time we'll be devoted entirely to the plot that the dream has created.

THIS is why mindfulness practice results in lucidity and IMNSHO is right on target for LD practice while ADA misses the mark. Mindfulness is constantly bringing your mind back into calm/quiet focus, to tune in to yourself, rather than just mindlessly going with the plot, the flow, like a zombie, zoned out. Mindfulness is choosing your reactions, mindlessness is reacting by reflex.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

THIS is why mindfulness practice results in lucidity and IMNSHO is right on target for LD practice while ADA misses the mark. Mindfulness is constantly bringing your mind back into calm/quiet focus, to tune in to yourself, rather than just mindlessly going with the plot, the flow, like a zombie, zoned out. Mindfulness is choosing your reactions, mindlessness is reacting by reflex.

Exactly, though what I see is many trying to systematize a practice in a way that makes it act as a mindless habit. ADA, like any other practice, is available for refinement and improvement. Though it can't be leveled to a practice like mindfulness, they do share something in that they both teach awareness. How awareness is reached depends on how mindfulness and ADA teach that awareness in their own way. The outline of each practice attracts the attention of people towards one, or the other. Mindfulness can be particularly demanding as well when starting out, just as anything new we wish to learn about.

^^ There is a long thread on DV between Sageous and KingYoshi discussing about the sort of awareness that ADA builds. I fall on the Sageous side: ADA is the (reflex/instinct) sort awareness (e.g., of a mouse), not of a sentient being (self-awareness, e.g., lucidity). That it not to say you can not find self-awareness from ADA, but it at the very least seems a circuitous route and a lot of effort not aimed in the right direction.

I will certainly take note of certain "accents" from the environment in a mindful manner: the brightness/warmth of sunlight, the sound of my feet on a gravel path, but always with the notion that "this is ME here, experiencing this", with the focus on the ME, not the sensations.

Cheers.

so mindfulness is just getting back to awareness when you lose
your focus right? but how is that different from ADA?
sometimes i lose my focus and minutes later i can "clean" my mind
out of thoughts, and i can keep going with my awareness.

@wolfdog which sense should i start first? what would get me lucid easier?
I wanted to try gravity but i'm not sure how i should do it.

Originally Posted by Iriba

so mindfulness is just getting back to awareness when you lose
your focus right? but how is that different from ADA?
sometimes i lose my focus and minutes later i can "clean" my mind
out of thoughts, and i can keep going with my awareness.

@wolfdog which sense should i start first? what would get me lucid easier?
I wanted to try gravity but i'm not sure how i should do it.

Gravity RC Guide has been created by Hukif member of DreamViews yet he posted this guide on different forum called Mortal Mist.
If you want to checkout his guide then type in google 'DILD -> Gravity RC (Page 1 of 2)' and go for the first link which should be Mortal Mist Forums

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

Gravity RC Guide has been created by Hukif member of DreamViews yet he posted this guide on different forum called Mortal Mist.
If you want to checkout his guide then type in google 'DILD -> Gravity RC (Page 1 of 2)' and go for the first link which should be Mortal Mist Forums

Yeah i already read that but i think
of that like self-awareness other than RC.
But i don't understand how i should start with gravity awareness

Originally Posted by Iriba

so mindfulness is just getting back to awareness when you lose
your focus right? but how is that different from ADA?
sometimes i lose my focus and minutes later i can "clean" my mind
out of thoughts, and i can keep going with my awareness.

@wolfdog which sense should i start first? what would get me lucid easier?
I wanted to try gravity but i'm not sure how i should do it.

In summary (read the references I sent you), mindfulness is about staying "tuned in." The practice involves continually bringing it back once you've noticed you've zoned out. There's quite a bit more to it than that, as I said, read the thread and the referenced books/etc.

Let me ask you: so how is mindfulness different from ADA? The answer is contained in what has already been written.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

In summary (read the references I sent you), mindfulness is about staying "tuned in." The practice involves continually bringing it back once you've noticed you've zoned out. There's quite a bit more to it than that, as I said, read the thread and the referenced books/etc.

Let me ask you: so how is mindfulness different from ADA? The answer is contained in what has already been written.

Mindfulness just relies on going back on being aware again?
But sometimes i feel i zone out from ADA then i can go back again
into my awareness. and anyway if i will meditate, i will count 10 breaths and what then?

It's all there, in the mindfulness threads already mentioned, in the books referenced there, and in the books I've mentioned.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

It's all there, in the mindfulness threads already mentioned, in the books referenced there, and in the books I've mentioned.

I know, i read the mindfulness thing and how to meditate
but, many people can lucid dream without going through meditation.
Do i really need meditation to be able to lucid dream?

You don't need any more pointless answers - you need to meditate. I recommend 5 minutes, 10 if 5 is easy.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

You don't need any more pointless answers - you need to meditate. I recommend 5 minutes, 10 if 5 is easy.

So i just sit in a chair count my breathe until 10 then count back to 1. Then what? I dont understand how will that will help me in mindfulness i just want to try to understand but everyone answering with big theories i dont get it

Did you do it yet? How can you expect to understand until you try it? Example - you can read about driving a car all you want, but you don't actually know how to drive one until you've got behind the wheel and done it a few times. Reading about it and talking about it more is just a waste of time.

And saying that mindfulness is "just breathing until 10 and then back to 1" is like saying that driving is just "sitting in the chair and turning the wheel this way and that". Yes, it does include that, but there's more to it (and in fact you don't need to count)…

Now go and do it.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

^^ There is a long thread on DV between Sageous and KingYoshi discussing about the sort of awareness that ADA builds. I fall on the Sageous side: ADA is the (reflex/instinct) sort awareness (e.g., of a mouse), not of a sentient being (self-awareness, e.g., lucidity). That it not to say you can not find self-awareness from ADA, but it at the very least seems a circuitous route and a lot of effort not aimed in the right direction.

I will certainly take note of certain "accents" from the environment in a mindful manner: the brightness/warmth of sunlight, the sound of my feet on a gravel path, but always with the notion that "this is ME here, experiencing this", with the focus on the ME, not the sensations.

Cheers.

The way I see it (based on what I've read and practiced), with mindfulness we train awareness, an observation of our experience as it happens, to become aware of the present moment. This includes our actions, our bodies, thoughts, feelings, what we can sense, anything and everything that's happening at the moment, now. Everything, anything, and nothing are included within our scope of awareness. Yet, even though we're to become aware, to become present, we don't direct our observational focus to anything in particular, and when observing, we don't get involved with what we're aware of, for the act of involvement separates us from the present moment, from awareness. Mindfulness is the passive observation of any external and internal stimuli experienced.

Well, this is the idea I have about mindfulness. I'll take a look at that whole thread about mindfulness and ADA. I'm sure there's some valuable pieces of information I can extract and learn about from there.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Did you do it yet? How can you expect to understand until you try it? Example - you can read about driving a car all you want, but you don't actually know how to drive one until you've got behind the wheel and done it a few times. Reading about it and talking about it more is just a waste of time.

And saying that mindfulness is "just breathing until 10 and then back to 1" is like saying that driving is just "sitting in the chair and turning the wheel this way and that". Yes, it does include that, but there's more to it (and in fact you don't need to count)…

Now go and do it.

Ok, so it happened today. it lasted 7 minutes
It was my first time meditating.
And i sitted normal, i didn't use that meditation poses (i hope it's not need to)

So i closed my eyes, and started to breath.
I could feel my air flux into my throat and reach my lungs
i also felt my rib cage expanding and compressing.
i felt i was breathing the cold and fresh air coming from atmosphere.
after 2 minutes, some little problem popped on my head, but i immediately
ignored that and went back to focus on breathe.
And this continued for more 5 minutes.

Now that i've done meditation, What should i do?

please still needing help

A little update and a question:

2 months passed and now i'm training sight awareness and
"I'm here" moments. I believe those are important to enter
in a hyper-realistic dream, but if i am wrong please suggest me some other
methods i'm open for it. Also been meditating about 6-7 minutes everyday
There isn't much progress there because i keep getting distracted by
feelings, worries, etc... but everytime that happens i try to focus asap
to my breathing. Also made a thread on DILD course
so maybe i can get a little more help there. About dreams, they still feel the same way as i started
or maybe i didn't feel the difference. but few days ago i dreamt i was doing a reality
check. My recall got weaker these days, but today i could recall 2 dreams.

Question:

I fear that i'm doing something wrong or missing some point to get lucid
or even have some mental Ill that i'm unaware. Because i don't think it's normal
to take almost 3 years to get 1 hyper-realistic lucid dream.