Thread: Fed up with semi-lucidity

I think that just may be your baseline level of awareness right now. I think it's a positive thing. Also, I wouldn't focus on the negative about it; that type of energy will only encourage more frustration in the end (and less results). I would start by accepting this as positive, then build on it from there.

Build on it by sharpening your critical reflective attitude. That's key for DILDs. You could try all day awareness techniques or memory building techniques as well. What's most important is that you stop yourself many times a day and seriously question your reality. Don't do a RC right away. Look around first. Does it look like a dream? Engage your senses, then do an RC. It's just too easy to do mindless RCs without actually paying attention to our surroundings. And always question reality when anything strange happens, but I'm sure I don't have to tell you that. You could also practice visualization techniques (Robert Waggoner claims these catapulted the number of DILDs he was having) by imagining yourself in the previous dream you were just having, but getting lucid and carrying out lucid actions. Do this at night after journaling (assuming you are journaling multiple times a night).

Also, it's worth saying that sometimes less is more. Maybe backing off the practice a bit will yield the results you are looking for. One thing I know is true - stress will not help. Let the dreams come to you.

This perspective confuses me. I think it's the mainstream perspective in the modern lucid dreaming community (and I say that in a validating way). I think I might have become delusional by detaching myself from this perspective but here's what's weird to me: why is lucid dreaming defined as some sort of specific meditational state? Why is lucid dreaming defined as deep metacognition? It's kind of trippy to do in waking life, in the first place. You have to focus your attention on the awareness of your awareness. And then you need to hold that attention... effortlessly. Just doing that in waking life is... an exercise, to say the least. Now, you have to spontaneously remember to do that during a dream and maintain it? And supposedly complete dream tasks and enjoy an engaged interaction with the dream? Otherwise... it's only semi-lucidity?

When we dream... we are asleep. Our brain is asleep. Asleep does not mean unconscious. While we dream, we are definitively conscious. But our brain is no longer in the same state. Am I wrong to think that cognitive abilities are reduced during sleep? Why is lucid dreaming supposed to be dreaming with no cognitive ability disruption + metacognitive meditation (unnecessary to a clear thinking waking experience)?

I thought lucid dreaming was about nurturing a clearness of mind amidst sleep. Like being mindful while very drunk. If you get very drunk and practice mindfulness, are you supposed to beat yourself up for not becoming Buddha in that moment, rather than enjoy the nurturing of sobriety amidst drunkenness?

I don't think your struggle with accomplishing dream goals is related to a lack of meta-awareness of awareness. It seems an issue of memory. You have to remember the dream goal. Would focusing your attention on your awareness trigger perfect memory of dream goals? And is our memory not by definition impaired during sleep? Clearly, it's still accessible. But, is it not inherently and obligatorily disrupted?

Does anyone's experience with lucid dreaming really look like suddenly accessing a perfectly clear mind with none of the disruptions and changes of sleep? When I read such experiences, I wonder if this person is not simply unaware of the limits and weaknesses of their mind in that moment. Like someone that gets the illusion of a clear mind while high, only to realize later that all their extraordinary new understandings make no more sense, or can hardly be remembered, but somehow convince themselves that their mind was clearer than ever in that experience.

Hmmm. Personally, I am resisting the idea that "true" consciousness only exists in the spiritual elite few. We're all conscious. Sometimes, if I am asked to calculate new calculations using information from new forms and in a new context at work, I will be quite confused at first. My mind feels unclear as I explore this new mathematical world. Eventually, I get familiarized and can better orient myself in that new context. I can feel a better clarity of mind in that context. It's something to strive for in the different contexts relevant to our lives. I see it the same way with dreams. I want to better familiarize and increase my ability to orient myself in them. I think that's what lucidity is, not what seems to me like a convoluted state of mind exercise that grants perfect cognitive abilities.

One of my first lucid dreams that sparked my passion for them was simply an experience of awe and appreciation for the experience. Like feeling present and appreciative while eating a good meal. Isn't that good enough? Or do I need to do a metacognitive meditation while I eat to really feel I wasn't semi-living?

Tl;dr I am in your same situation, but I don't think my issue relates to a lack of metacognitive meditation whilst dreaming and living. I think it's a matter of improving the ways in which I can trigger memories to do certain dream goals. I find that by doing active daydreaming of common dream themes, I learn to better orient myself, think more clearly (or in a certain chosen way anyway) in a future dream with the same theme. I gravely struggle to induce dreams however.

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

I think that just may be your baseline level of awareness right now. I think it's a positive thing. Also, I wouldn't focus on the negative about it; that type of energy will only encourage more frustration in the end (and less results). I would start by accepting this as positive, then build on it from there.

I think "fed up" was a bit too strong I am not actually frustrated. It's more mind-boggling. I feel like there should be a way how to use it. I am positively motivated (really happy with my progress with WILDs) and don't need backing off at the moment (just to clarify).
That baseline awareness thing... I've been thinking that too and it's certainly true for the implicit semi-lucidity. But the more explicit examples are different, I think. If it is a good thing, shouldn't more semi-lucid dreams mean more lucid dreams? Like one real LD for every 5 or 10 semi-lucids or something like that? And I don't think that's happening.

Build on it by sharpening your critical reflective attitude. That's key for DILDs.

I can't go wrong with that I read your comment just before going to sleep and had it on my mind.
It was a weird night. After I woke up for the first time, I wasn't able to sleep for an hour and a half. Then there was an hour or more of extremely fragmented REM (short dreams with micro awakenings between them). I journaled 7 dreams from that period but there were between 7 and 10, I think. I was questioning at least two of them and managed to identify as dreams two or three. But they all collapsed as I did that. Too light sleep to do anything more. But I take it as success with being more critical.
This is not normal for me. It's been very hot for the last two weeks and the heat affects my sleep and my thinking ability (asleep or awake, I just want to hibernate ).
I managed to do one very short (probably) WILD later though.
Tomorrow, I need to get up early, so no dreaming plans. And then it should finally get colder. So let's see how it goes then.

You could try all day awareness techniques or memory building techniques as well. What's most important is that you stop yourself many times a day and seriously question your reality. Don't do a RC right away. Look around first. Does it look like a dream? Engage your senses, then do an RC. It's just too easy to do mindless RCs without actually paying attention to our surroundings. And always question reality when anything strange happens, but I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.

I do RC when something strange happens. And a longer looking around (checking all details, remembering what I was doing 15 minutes ago and what I want to do) 3-5 times per day.
I tried ADA a couple of times but I can always keep at it for a day or two, max three, and then I slowly stop. It's just too much.
I like doing random activities mindfully and I like to do awareness meditation in my garden.

You could also practice visualization techniques (Robert Waggoner claims these catapulted the number of DILDs he was having) by imagining yourself in the previous dream you were just having, but getting lucid and carrying out lucid actions.

So that's LaBerge in MILD and Waggoner too. Maybe I should do it more. I don't like imagining doing my goals or things I really want to do (I don't want to set expectations) but a random lucid continuation of some dreams could be fun.

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

That baseline awareness thing... I've been thinking that too and it's certainly true for the implicit semi-lucidity. But the more explicit examples are different, I think. If it is a good thing, shouldn't more semi-lucid dreams mean more lucid dreams? Like one real LD for every 5 or 10 semi-lucids or something like that? And I don't think that's happening.

What I think is that you're on the verge of having natural DILDs. If you are having a lot of semi-lucid or pre-lucid moments, it's just a matter of time. But unlike WILDs, you can't make a DILD happen on demand. It's more like something you practice over a longer time and build up to, combined with a bit of luck. Patience is key here.

Consider the difference (getting this from Daniel Love's video on WILDs) - a WILD is awareness first, plus dreaming second. A DILD is dreaming first, awareness added second. So, in a WILD, it's easy to lose the dream early on because your awareness is the stronger element. With a DILD, it's easier to lose awareness because the dream is the stronger element. This crucial difference is why a different approach is needed for both, and different expectations. Now, I'm not an expert on WILD, although I've had many, but I had heard it said that once you master techniques to have a WILD, it's the easier of the two (or at least the more predictable).

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

I do RC when something strange happens. And a longer looking around (checking all details, remembering what I was doing 15 minutes ago and what I want to do) 3-5 times per day.

Up this to 15 times a day or more. Aim for doing a mindful RC every ~ half hour to hour. You can also set yourself goals to build prospective memory. Something simple such as doing an RC every time you hear the doorbell ring. Or, every time you see a red car. See how many times you can hit your mark. This works well when paired with a MILD technique, but also just helps overall as memory is a key element in achieving DILDs.

If you are still not successful after practicing new techniques, then you may want to reconsider taking a break. Especially if you've been pushing hard. All of the hard work you've previously done is used when you take the break. All of a sudden, everything clicks and you have a DILD. Sometimes our brain just needs that bit of freedom, to catch its breath so to speak, to use make use of our hard work effectively.

It sounds to me, IndigoRose, that you need to work on your fundamentals (self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention), with, as Occipitalred said, a focus on memory. Also as Occipitalred said, in my opinion you are already there, experience and consciousness-wise; all that's needed now is a little tweaking of your presence in your dreams... I think that if you learn to develop your self-awareness and memory in waking-life, you will find that "tweaking " much easier during your dreams.

In the first session of my DVA WILD Class, I presented an exercise I called a Reverse Reality check; I suggest you check it out, as it might help.

Finally, I highly recommend that you take up (or retake, perhaps?) a MILD practice. Even if you don't care about DILD's, the exercises in MILD are most helpful in developing the lucid mindset necessary to achieve the goals you are looking for. Also, I suggest you go right back to LaBerge's instructions in EWOLD, as they are still the cleanest available.

That's all I got; I hope it helps!

As long as I'm here, though, I can't resist some bullets for OccipitalRed:

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

This perspective confuses me. I think it's the mainstream perspective in the modern lucid dreaming community (and I say that in a validating way). I think I might have become delusional by detaching myself from this perspective but here's what's weird to me: why is lucid dreaming defined as some sort of specific meditational state?

It isn't, at least by me. There is nothing meditative about remembering to remember, or gathering waking-life self-awareness in a dream (or in waking-life, for that matter). There is nothing deep, meaningful, or supercritical about this action; in fact it is little more than a decision.

Why is lucid dreaming defined as deep metacognition?

Again, it isn't, at least by me, and shouldn't be by anyone. I firmly believe that one of the errors of advanced LD'ers these days, and the tutorials they spawn, is putting too much introspection and other deep thought into their philosophies and instructions. Lucid dreaming, full-on lucid dreaming, is nothing more than simply being your self -- your waking-life self -- during the dream. Adding more simply confuses both instructor and instructees.

It's kind of trippy to do in waking life, in the first place. You have to focus your attention on the awareness of your awareness. And then you need to hold that attention... effortlessly. Just doing that in waking life is... an exercise, to say the least. Now, you have to spontaneously remember to do that during a dream and maintain it? And supposedly complete dream tasks and enjoy an engaged interaction with the dream? Otherwise... it's only semi-lucidity?

Awareness of awareness is sort of a silly term to me, and decidedly complicates simply being present/self-aware. You don't need to observe and appreciate self-awareness, you need only have it... yes, the practice necessary to achieve this state easily can be difficult, but the best things (like LD'ing) usually need a little extra effort, don't they?

When we dream... we are asleep. Our brain is asleep. Asleep does not mean unconscious. While we dream, we are definitively conscious. But our brain is no longer in the same state. Am I wrong to think that cognitive abilities are reduced during sleep?

Well, again in my opinion, yes, you are. Our cogntive abilities work just fine in dreams; what is impaired is our ability to access memory. Without that access, the sharpest mind in the world can't properly process thoughts or interpret sensory input (real or imagined). But with that access, cognition works just as well in a dream as it does in waking-life, because you can access real memory to assess the unreal stuff you see in dreams (i.e., when semi-lucid you might be quite comfortable with the "fact" that your long-dead grandmother is chatting with you, as though she were still alive, but if your granny is chatting with you when fully lucid, you can remember that she is dead -- and the experience just might be more wonderful for that remembering).

Why is lucid dreaming supposed to be dreaming with no cognitive ability disruption + metacognitive meditation (unnecessary to a clear thinking waking experience)?

It isn't!

I thought lucid dreaming was about nurturing a clearness of mind amidst sleep. Like being mindful while very drunk. If you get very drunk and practice mindfulness, are you supposed to beat yourself up for not becoming Buddha in that moment, rather than enjoy the nurturing of sobriety amidst drunkenness?

I think of it more as nurturing a clearness of mind that immediately sobers my drunken mind, through conjuring self-awareness and accessing memory. If a dreamer ever, ever imagines that he must become Buddha (per se, of course) to be a successful LD'er, he is definitely on the wrong path. All he needs to be is present.

And is our memory not by definition impaired during sleep? Clearly, it's still accessible. But, is it not inherently and obligatorily disrupted?

No, it is not. Yes, access to memory is shut off during normal dreaming, and that is certainly by genetic design, but an LD'er has the ability to turn it back on, to access memory as if she were awake. Lucid dreaming almost by definition -- being awake while you are asleep -- is done in defiance of nature. We humans do lots of things in defiance of nature, why not this? Also, to assume that access to memory is inherently and obligatorily disrupted is to guarantee that it will be.

Does anyone's experience with lucid dreaming really look like suddenly accessing a perfectly clear mind with none of the disruptions and changes of sleep?

Yup. That state is relatively rare for me, but, yup.

When I read such experiences, I wonder if this person is not simply unaware of the limits and weaknesses of their mind in that moment. Like someone that gets the illusion of a clear mind while high, only to realize later that all their extraordinary new understandings make no more sense, or can hardly be remembered, but somehow convince themselves that their mind was clearer than ever in that experience.

Now this is something I completely agree with, and am sure is a common -- but ignored -- issue in the art of LD'ing. Dreams are the only things in human experience whose existence relies completely on memory, so how we remember our experience is critical... unfortunately, many, many people tend to quickly form memories that conform to their desires rather than carefully and humbly reviewing their raw memories immediately upon waking, and let them form into accurate renditions of their dreaming experience, for better or worse.

One of my first lucid dreams that sparked my passion for them was simply an experience of awe and appreciation for the experience. Like feeling present and appreciative while eating a good meal. Isn't that good enough?

If that is all you seek, then certainly.

Or do I need to do a metacognitive meditation while I eat to really feel I wasn't semi-living?

No, I don't think so. You never really need to examine how you are thinking about an experience to appreciate the experience; the opposite, appreciating the experience without thinking about how you are appreciating it is in my mind a supremely better attitude. I really like the term "semi-living," BTW; I have a feeling that is the cognitive default mode for most people, and one that self-awareness (which is to me a decidedly unnatural state) easily elevates to "full-on living" -- without meditation or metacognition!

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

This perspective confuses me. I think it's the mainstream perspective in the modern lucid dreaming community (and I say that in a validating way). I think I might have become delusional by detaching myself from this perspective

Thank you for thought-provoking response (as always).

When we dream... we are asleep. Our brain is asleep. Asleep does not mean unconscious. While we dream, we are definitively conscious. But our brain is no longer in the same state. Am I wrong to think that cognitive abilities are reduced during sleep? Why is lucid dreaming supposed to be dreaming with no cognitive ability disruption + metacognitive meditation (unnecessary to a clear thinking waking experience)?

I agree with some of your points (and some of my most memorable dreams in recent months were non-lucids).
But I don't think I want that much. I don't need perfect clarity, I am ok with low lucidity.
I just want the ability to turn away from whatever's happening in the dreaming and walk the other way.
It doesn't need to be a specific goal or controlled (other than the control of my body), it can be a simple exploring of whatever's there. More freedom.

I don't really understand how non-lucid dreams work. I know they are conscious. I know that all that thoughts in them are genuinely my thoughts. The experience is my experience. I can notice (when journaling later) how the dreams react to my thoughts.
But acting in them? I don't know. In some low-lucidity dreams, I did things that I didn't intend to do and I was unable to tell why I did them. Like the dream was acting for me. Aren't non-lucid dreams fundamentally the same? An illusion of control/free mind but with no free mind actually present? Or is it me acting in them but doing the first thing that comes to my mind, without any real thinking?

I don't think your struggle with accomplishing dream goals is related to a lack of meta-awareness of awareness. It seems an issue of memory. You have to remember the dream goal. Would focusing your attention on your awareness trigger perfect memory of dream goals?

Maybe, yes.
Actually, yes. If I look back on my LD in the last 5 months (counting only those reasonably long, both WILDs and DILDs), I had good memory of my goals in nearly all of them.

I think it's a matter of improving the ways in which I can trigger memories to do certain dream goals. I find that by doing active daydreaming of common dream themes, I learn to better orient myself, think more clearly (or in a certain chosen way anyway) in a future dream with the same theme.

Again, possibly, yes.

BTW, I haven't said that because I am not sure it's relevant but I have ADHD. Nothing severe, primarily inattention, not medicated, not affecting my life negatively but I have some coping mechanisms (think caffeine, being organized and splitting my work into smaller chunks).
Despite that, I would say I have good prospective memory (I rarely use to-do lists). But motivation plays a huge role in it. I can do those memory practices (intention to do something when I see something etc.) extremely well when I really want to but I would probably struggle to keep the motivation going for days or weeks. So maybe my memory works well but in bursts rather than consistently well. I don't know.
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Responding to everyone as I have time.

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

What I think is that you're on the verge of having natural DILDs. If you are having a lot of semi-lucid or pre-lucid moments, it's just a matter of time. But unlike WILDs, you can't make a DILD happen on demand. It's more like something you practice over a longer time and build up to, combined with a bit of luck. Patience is key here.

I hope you are right.
I've always had them but now it feels like I have them much more often, so I'll try to take it as a good sign.

Consider the difference (getting this from Daniel Love's video on WILDs) - a WILD is awareness first, plus dreaming second. A DILD is dreaming first, awareness added second. So, in a WILD, it's easy to lose the dream early on because your awareness is the stronger element. With a DILD, it's easier to lose awareness because the dream is the stronger element.

This is a very interesting way how to look at it.
Thinking about it, most of my DILDs were awareness first, so not typical DILDs.
Some numbers - out of 18 dreams in recent 5 months - 6 were WILD, pseudoWILD or DEILD, 3 were FAs (lucidity from the beginning), 4 other lucid from the beginning (some of these were after unsuccessful WILD attempts). Only 5 were typical DILDs. And out of these 5, one was post WILD (pure awareness, no trigger from the dream), 2 were smooth transitions from semis and only 2 were typical dreamsign-triggered DILDs.

Another interesting fact is that I have a much better chance of going lucid in very realistic scenarios (FAs in my bedroom being the easiest). On the other hand, I rarely go lucid in dreams I really enjoy and where I am truly immersed in the dream plot (no matter how crazy they are). Sometimes, I go semi-lucid in these, but it feels like I am happy with where I am at those moments, not wanting to change anything.

Up this to 15 times a day or more. Aim for doing a mindful RC every ~ half hour to hour. You can also set yourself goals to build prospective memory. Something simple such as doing an RC every time you hear the doorbell ring. Or, every time you see a red car.

The problem is that I work from home and RCing only when I am working on my computer probably won't help much (+ I never dream about being at home). I need to get some RCs outside. So combining them with memory triggers (a red car, dog barking etc.) sounds like a good idea.
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Originally Posted by Sageous

It sounds to me, IndigoRose, that you need to work on your fundamentals (self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention), with, as Occipitalred said, a focus on memory. Also as Occipitalred said, in my opinion you are already there, experience and consciousness-wise; all that's needed now is a little tweaking of your presence in your dreams... I think that if you learn to develop your self-awareness and memory in waking-life, you will find that "tweaking " much easier during your dreams.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am happy to see that you agree with Occipitalred regarding the memory (because my thoughts was about memory missing in some of these dreams too).
I read the threads on fundamentals in spring and learnt a lot from them. But I think I could benefit from rereading them with my current goals and problems in mind... there are always some gems to be found.

Also enjoying your discussion with Occipitalred.

This “Explicit semi lucidity” you speak of I do have from time to time and I usually get it 1-2 nights before a full lucid dream occurs. I look at attempting lucid dreaming a bit like throwing a dart at a dart board. Imagine the bullseye is a “full” lucid dream with clear waking awareness (which is the main goal I assume). The further away from the bullseye the less lucidity you have. When we first start out we don’t have the skills to hit the bullseye every night and probably more often we’re going to throw it and hit the outer circles, maybe even miss entirely! We may get lucky and hit the bullseye now and then but mostly we’re going to hit the other, larger segments with next to no lucidity. Using this example I see this explicit semi-lucidity as hitting the green ring around the bullseye. You’re so close that you get a hint of the experience but not the full package. The more we practice the more skilled we become and the better we get at hitting the bullseye. So for you to be getting these semis I would suggest is a positive thing.

How many “full” lucid dreams do you get a week? I average 1-2 a week and then maybe 2-3 semis. I don’t see these semis as missed opportunities though and appreciate that I got so close to the bullseye. If you’re having a small amount of full lucids and then a bunch of semis I’d say you’re doing quite well and just need more time and practice.

In terms of increasing awareness so that you get closer to the bullseye I would maybe try a longer WBTB to increase your waking awareness prior to going back to sleep and maybe do more reality checks and critical thinking as others have suggested.

I enjoyed reading these responses and I'll surely get back to read them some more in depth.
Just wanted to say it's great to see this level of deep genuine discussion between dreamers , kinda makes me feel nice.

OK back on topic.
I'll give my 2c.
I don't like having dream goals. I feel they can also make semi-lucids happen, because chances are you'll just half-ass the goal in a semi-lucid trance.
I feel the one (and only) thing to do (and you can call it a dream goal too) would be to tell yourself that after you realize it's a dream, you'll STOP.
Stop what you're doing. Stop following dream characters. Stop following the plot. Look at your hands, look at the details of the world, do whatever grounding technique you do, but DON'T get pulled in.
If you start having the "oh my I wonder where this big orange cat is going" sort of thought, and you feel it occupying your mind -> STOP. You'll figure it out later. Now is your clarity time.
Don't let the dream impose its pace on you.
And then from there, you can do your own steps wherever and however you wish, with clarity and stability, not being dragged around.

Great Master Bodhidharma's Teaching on Peace of Mind says,
When people are deluded, they follow things;
when people are liberated, things follow them.
If you're liberated, then consciousness absorbs form;
if you're deluded, form absorbs consciousness.

Best wishes.

Originally Posted by Vortaix

I enjoyed reading these responses and I'll surely get back to read them some more in depth.
Just wanted to say it's great to see this level of deep genuine discussion between dreamers , kinda makes me feel nice.

OK back on topic.
I'll give my 2c.
I don't like having dream goals. I feel they can also make semi-lucids happen, because chances are you'll just half-ass the goal in a semi-lucid trance.
I feel the one (and only) thing to do (and you can call it a dream goal too) would be to tell yourself that after you realize it's a dream, you'll STOP.
Stop what you're doing. Stop following dream characters. Stop following the plot. Look at your hands, look at the details of the world, do whatever grounding technique you do, but DON'T get pulled in.
If you start having the "oh my I wonder where this big orange cat is going" sort of thought, and you feel it occupying your mind -> STOP. You'll figure it out later. Now is your clarity time.
Don't let the dream impose its pace on you.
And then from there, you can do your own steps wherever and however you wish, with clarity and stability, not being dragged around.

Great Master Bodhidharma's Teaching on Peace of Mind says,
When people are deluded, they follow things;
when people are liberated, things follow them.
If you're liberated, then consciousness absorbs form;
if you're deluded, form absorbs consciousness.

Best wishes.

Following something in a dream when lucid does not mean you are not in charge of your actions. You can choose to follow something. You can choose to investigate the dream plot lucidly, without getting so pulled in by emotion or desire that you lose lucidity. Why would anyone do this? Because it can help give very clear understanding about your own psyche and spiritual aspects. Moreso than a non-lucid dream just because you can consciously interact with, and ask questions of, dream characters or objects, and because of the increased vividness and memory.

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

Following something in a dream when lucid does not mean you are not in charge of your actions. You can choose to follow something.

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about the first 15 seconds after attaining lucidity.

Originally Posted by Vortaix

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about the first 15 seconds after attaining lucidity.

Gotcha. Also... sorry for going off topic a touch. Back on topic!

Originally Posted by Vortaix

I enjoyed reading these responses and I'll surely get back to read them some more in depth.
Just wanted to say it's great to see this level of deep genuine discussion between dreamers , kinda makes me feel nice.

That's what I like about DV

OK back on topic.

I feel the one (and only) thing to do (and you can call it a dream goal too) would be to tell yourself that after you realize it's a dream, you'll STOP.
Stop what you're doing. Stop following dream characters. Stop following the plot. Look at your hands, look at the details of the world, do whatever grounding technique you do, but DON'T get pulled in.

That's what I do in most of my LDs. But it simply doesn't happen/I can't do it in those semis. It's like I am too absorbed by the dream.
On the other hand, Moonage is right, it's perfectly possible and valid to follow the plot fully lucidly.
This brings me back to the fact that as I said, I don't really understand the state(s) of consciousness in non-lucid dreams. And to Tiktaalik's question.

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

How many “full” lucid dreams do you get a week? I average 1-2 a week and then maybe 2-3 semis. I don’t see these semis as missed opportunities though and appreciate that I got so close to the bullseye. If you’re having a small amount of full lucids and then a bunch of semis I’d say you’re doing quite well and just need more time and practice.

1 LD per week or slightly less (3 so far in July, 3 in June, 4 in May, 6 in April). Hard to say with the semis. Probably 1 explicit per week, so not that many, but then there are almost explicit ones, dreams that feel somewhat lucid but I have no proof that they were and can't say if I knew or not, and dreams in which I am not sure if they were dreams. The implicit semis are much more common but they are not as clear-cut to identify.
Anyway, I don't count extremely short LDs and I don't count anything I am not completely sure about.
It's funny that the longer I am in this, the blurrier I see the line between lucid and non-lucid.
I am quite sure I could count some of the explicit semis as low-level lucid dreams if I wanted but I don't publish my count and this is not a competition for me, so any thinking about definitions is just for fun/trying to understand the nature of dreams more.
Here is one quick example that could be count as lucid, I think:

I am walking on grass, barefoot, or in some light-weight sandals, at night. With every step I take, there is a kaleidoscope of orange butterflies of various sizes, some full size, some much smaller. I love it and I think: "I've always wanted to have a dream like this." and then I think that this is almost like that TOTM task with lighting the floor with every step. Then I see a firefly and watch it fly and sit on the grass and its light going off. I go and try to find it in the grass.

I lost any bits of lucidity I had while looking for that firefly.
I think this happens when the awareness is there but the intention or memory (what it means, what I wanted to do with it) isn't. But then, I don't understand why I was able to remember the TOTM (which I don't even do).

Anyway, I think I have the tendency to overthink things. I have this strong need to understand things and I would love to be able to classify dreams and to quantify all aspects needed for them in some way but I think that the fundamentals can't be seen as a kind of progress or power bars that get charged by doing techniques or WBTB, it's more complex than that.
Awareness is the most elusive one. There are nights during which I just know I am at the right spot, very close to an LD or multiple ones. Or nights with multiple semis. And then there are nights that are the exact opposite extreme. And these two extremes can happen in one week, even if life doesn't get in, just as a natural fluctuation, I guess. The quality of sleep plays its role, the number and length of awakenings, the mood that day and possibly also the food eaten and supplements, and more. I just can't find any reliable correlations.

Right now, I am in a very confused mindset. I'll take the weekend off and then will start a new routine on Monday (memory practices connected to reality checks and reverse reality checks) and I'll probably give another chance to MILD with a greater focus on rehearsals/visualizations.

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

Anyway, I don't count extremely short LDs and I don't count anything I am not completely sure about.
It's funny that the longer I am in this, the blurrier I see the line between lucid and non-lucid. I am quite sure I could count some of the explicit semis as low-level lucid dreams if I wanted but I don't publish my count and this is not a competition for me, so any thinking about definitions is just for fun/trying to understand the nature of dreams more.
Here is one quick example that could be count as lucid, I think:

I am walking on grass, barefoot, or in some light-weight sandals, at night. With every step I take, there is a kaleidoscope of orange butterflies of various sizes, some full size, some much smaller. I love it and I think: "I've always wanted to have a dream like this." and then I think that this is almost like that TOTM task with lighting the floor with every step. Then I see a firefly and watch it fly and sit on the grass and its light going off. I go and try to find it in the grass.

I agree, the line between lucid and non-lucid isn’t always black and white. I think there are definitely levels of lucidity as well and the way you’ve outlined the three different types in your opening question is similar to how I would describe low, medium and high levels of awareness in dreams. For me to count it as a true lucid I have to feel that I have a sense of wakefulness in the dream and an understanding of what I’m experiencing and what it means even if it’s only in a small way. So for me your implicit examples I wouldn’t count but some of your explicit I may count depending on how awake and present I felt. The example you mentioned above with the fire fly I would perhaps edge toward labelling it as a low level lucid dream but I understand if maybe you didn’t feel truly present in the dream and you wouldn’t want to label it as such. It’s tricky when it’s not so clearly defined but I guess that’s what we’re dealing with when it comes to this subject and in the end it doesn’t really need to be.

Lucid count shouldn’t be a competition, I agree but it’s a good way of recording our progress when we’re starting out. I only asked because I wondered if your expectations as to how many you think you should be having on average was too high. I think to have even frequent semi lucids is a great place to be though I too would love plenty more high quality lucid dreams and I’m looking to improve and increase their frequency as well.

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

There are nights during which I just know I am at the right spot, very close to an LD or multiple ones. Or nights with multiple semis. And then there are nights that are the exact opposite extreme. And these two extremes can happen in one week, even if life doesn't get in, just as a natural fluctuation, I guess. The quality of sleep plays its role, the number and length of awakenings, the mood that day and possibly also the food eaten and supplements, and more. I just can't find any reliable correlations.

Yes, I think all this does tie in and effects our chances. Some nights it feels like the stars align and lucid dreaming is effortless and others it doesn’t matter what you do you’re just not going to get there.

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

Right now, I am in a very confused mindset. I'll take the weekend off and then will start a new routine on Monday (memory practices connected to reality checks and reverse reality checks) and I'll probably give another chance to MILD with a greater focus on rehearsals/visualizations.

I think this is a good idea and something I do from time to time. It does help and don’t be surprised if you have a lucid dream during the break. It always happens for me.

Originally Posted by Sageous

There is nothing meditative about remembering to remember, or gathering waking-life self-awareness in a dream (or in waking-life, for that matter). There is nothing deep, meaningful, or supercritical about this action; in fact it is little more than a decision.

I firmly believe that one of the errors of advanced LD'ers these days, and the tutorials they spawn, is putting too much introspection and other deep thought into their philosophies and instructions. Lucid dreaming, full-on lucid dreaming, is nothing more than simply being your self -- your waking-life self -- during the dream. Adding more simply confuses both instructor and instructees.

Awareness of awareness is sort of a silly term to me, and decidedly complicates simply being present/self-aware. You don't need to observe and appreciate self-awareness, you need only have it... yes, the practice necessary to achieve this state easily can be difficult, but the best things (like LD'ing) usually need a little extra effort, don't they?

Our cogntive abilities work just fine in dreams; what is impaired is our ability to access memory. Without that access, the sharpest mind in the world can't properly process thoughts or interpret sensory input (real or imagined). But with that access, cognition works just as well in a dream as it does in waking-life, because you can access real memory to assess the unreal stuff you see in dreams (i.e., when semi-lucid you might be quite comfortable with the "fact" that your long-dead grandmother is chatting with you, as though she were still alive, but if your granny is chatting with you when fully lucid, you can remember that she is dead -- and the experience just might be more wonderful for that remembering).

I think of it more as nurturing a clearness of mind that immediately sobers my drunken mind, through conjuring self-awareness and accessing memory. If a dreamer ever, ever imagines that he must become Buddha (per se, of course) to be a successful LD'er, he is definitely on the wrong path. All he needs to be is present.

Yes, access to memory is shut off during normal dreaming, and that is certainly by genetic design, but an LD'er has the ability to turn it back on, to access memory as if she were awake. Lucid dreaming almost by definition -- being awake while you are asleep -- is done in defiance of nature. We humans do lots of things in defiance of nature, why not this? Also, to assume that access to memory is inherently and obligatorily disrupted is to guarantee that it will be.

Now this is something I completely agree with, and am sure is a common -- but ignored -- issue in the art of LD'ing. Dreams are the only things in human experience whose existence relies completely on memory, so how we remember our experience is critical... unfortunately, many, many people tend to quickly form memories that conform to their desires rather than carefully and humbly reviewing their raw memories immediately upon waking, and let them form into accurate renditions of their dreaming experience, for better or worse.

You never really need to examine how you are thinking about an experience to appreciate the experience; the opposite, appreciating the experience without thinking about how you are appreciating it is in my mind a supremely better attitude. I really like the term "semi-living," BTW; I have a feeling that is the cognitive default mode for most people, and one that self-awareness (which is to me a decidedly unnatural state) easily elevates to "full-on living" -- without meditation or metacognition!

I took a long time to respond because your comment actually surprised me which prompted me to scour the scientific literature to bring myself back to date with the modern understanding of dreaming and lucid dreaming.

First, I was pleasantly surprised that you do not take self-awareness to be this complicated metacognitive meditative state one has to maintain perpetually whilst dreaming. It's not that I thought you thought that. I more so get this feeling from the broader discussion. Recently, we are often talking about semi-lucidity, claiming no lucid dream is lucid enough. With practices such as ADA that require unbroken attention to all the subtleties of our external environment, and other such mindfulness practice, it begs the question, are we making this more complicated than it ought to be. And I'm happy you agree there!

Just the way IndigoRose defined "true lucidity" is indicative of the collective understanding: "True lucidity is awareness of this awareness." IndigoRose has gone through your course and left with this understanding. And I personally, have come out of your course multiple time with a different understanding of what "self-awareness" might specifically refer to. And I've for sure sometimes thought it might be like what IndigoRose said. This is not a comment on your course but on the general confusion of what it means to practice self-awareness regarding "true" lucid dreaming.

Secondly, I was surprised when you claimed that cognition in lucid dreams could be the same as waking. Not because I have never felt that way in lucid dreams, and not because I don't trust my memory of that feeling but because I just don't trust that my impression while dreaming was necessarily accurate (or grounded in a stable/long enough scenario to really test the extent of my cognition).

On my scientific literature scavenger hunt linked here, I did find the discussion is presently aligned with your statement. Presently, there is agreement with the Continuity Hypothesis of dreaming which claims a continuity between dreaming and waking cognition. This mostly means that dreaming is a lot like waking wandering thoughts and spontaneous mental scenarios and memories, and that cognition is otherwise very continuous. Additionally, there is evidence that during REM lucid dreams from dream practitioners, the brain state changes from a REM phase to a hybrid between a REM phase and a waking brain state. In the article, this state change is considered voluntary (resulting from the intention before going to sleep). So, it is true that while lucid dreaming, we can reactivate our mind to be more like our waking mind.

I think it's relevant here to note the Mindfulness-lucidity gap. I called it that so you won't find anything by googling that and it's only really based on one study so take this with a grain of salt, but I think the conclusion is meaningful to this thread. In the study, they demonstrated that waking mindfulness correlated with dreaming mindfulness, but both of these did not correlate with lucid dream frequency, in non lucid dream practitioners. This means that practicing mindfulness in waking life could increase mindfulness in our dreaming life, but that this will not in itself produce greater lucid dream frequency. To increase lucid dream frequency, you actually have to train to recognize dreams. Mindfulness training does not influence lucid dream frequency unless you are a meditator. It is possible that this is because meditators train to recognize internally generated phenomena such as thoughts and mental scenarios which I think is a form of practice to recognize dreams. I talk more about this in this thread linked here. Even in another article, this Mindfulness-lucidity gap is referenced when they say there is probably two neurobiological signatures of lucid dreaming: one associated to the metacogntive "aha, I am dreaming" and another associated with the shift from REM phase to the REM-waking hybrid of lucid dreams, which perhaps pertains to increased mindfulness or something else like just increased wakefulness during the dream. I don't like to use the word wakefulness while dreaming though. But this is probably what we mean when talking about semi-lucidity. We recognized it's a dream (lucidity) but we didn't completely change from REM to Hybrid sleep.

So to conclude, I like your answer and I think it matches the scientific literature. Particularly, that self-awareness is perhaps merely a choice, and not a complicated meditative sustained attention on awareness of awareness. While the scientists in one of the articles said that REM sleep could be elevated to a hybrid phase of wakefulness due to a voluntary decision prior to sleep, I think we can perhaps make this choice while in the dream. If we recognize we are dreaming (lucidity), we perhaps should take this first moment to chose to be more self-aware/present (mindful) and hence bridging the mindfulness-lucidity gap and elevating our REM to Hybrid sleep.

Update:

Recently, I've been feeling really low, unhappy with both my life and my LD progress. And I was completely stuck. Nothing worked, my sleep patterns have been bad and different every night. What worked before stopped working completely. But I still had a very good recall and some semi-lucid dreams.
I oven ordered some B6 a 5-HTP, not only for dreaming but also hoping that it could help with my mental health and sleep. I haven't tried it yet.

I adopted the new routine anyway - memory triggers for reality checks:
- when my cat jumps on my lap - quick RC
- when my mother messages me online or any other communication with my family, including FB posts - thorough RC
- when I see a dog outside - RRC
And also anything unusual or dreamy or sometimes when I go from A to B, as this is common in dreams.
I've been doing well with the memory triggers, some of them are now completely habituated, so I maybe change some or add some more. But the differences between the RCs disappeared, I just look around for dreamsign, think about what I am doing, think about the situation and do an RC.

Then, I guess, something clicked, because yesterday, I got lucid in a completely normal situation, just asking myself "could this be a dream". This is the first time ever I got lucid in this way, without any dreamsign and without any nighttime technique.
And today, the same thing again (plus a prelucid, where I got tricked).
I still need to add these to my dream journal here.

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Just the way IndigoRose defined "true lucidity" is indicative of the collective understanding: "True lucidity is awareness of this awareness." IndigoRose has gone through your course and left with this understanding. And I personally, have come out of your course multiple time with a different understanding of what "self-awareness" might specifically refer to. And I've for sure sometimes thought it might be like what IndigoRose said. This is not a comment on your course but on the general confusion of what it means to practice self-awareness regarding "true" lucid dreaming.

Secondly, I was surprised when you claimed that cognition in lucid dreams could be the same as waking. Not because I have never felt that way in lucid dreams, and not because I don't trust my memory of that feeling but because I just don't trust that my impression while dreaming was necessarily accurate (or grounded in a stable/long enough scenario to really test the extent of my cognition).

I read Sageous's threads and class but my concept of awareness of the awareness isn't from there, I think. Honestly, I still don't understand the concept of self-awareness well. From one point of view, it should be easy. But if it is the definition of the difference between the lucid state of mind and non-lucid state of mind, it stops making sense to me. Because I have non-lucid dreams in which I feel present while they are happening, thinking in them, making some decisions, having access to some memories. There is obviously some metacognition in these dreams, it's just the understanding of the context that is wrong. I also think the difference between lucids and non-lucids isn't just self-awareness and memory, it is in cognitive abilities too. My non-lucidity isn't about thinking wrongly or not remembering that blue dogs with horns don't exist, it is about not thinking at all, because thinking is hard and there are other interesting things to do, distractions, basically.
I also think my dream schema is very often on, subconsciously. Like when you watch a movie, your movie schema is on and you don't think why there are fantastical beings fighting, these things just happen in movies. A semi-lucid dream maybe happens when this comes out, over the subconscious-conscious barrier, for a moment, but not really triggering any form of higher awareness or cognition.

Thank you for taking the time and making the threads about the scientific progress in the field of dreaming, I'll read them later, looking very much forward to it.

EDIT: I think your science review thread answers a lot of my questions. Thank you!

Congrats on your DILDs!

I really do think memory boosting is key for them. When the RC triggers become habitual, time to change them up.