Natural lucid dreamers

[Hormoz]

Hello. So i read a few posts of what natural lucid dreamers do. What do they actually do? Are they conscious whenever they sleep? Or do they become aware when they are dreaming only? How do they exactly become lucid? Is that like sleeping and going to dream and saying i am in a dream now? Or is it like sleeping and waiting for a dream? Thank you. Maybe natural lucid dreamers do different things to become lucid but if you know something about it or you are a natural lucid dreamer or just want to say something you can answer .

[Ginsan]

I think a natural lucid dreamer is just someone who happened to discover it on their own. Some like me only lucid dream once a month and have crappy recall and slowly get better after reading about it on the internet. Some are lucid way more. But some people found it on the internet so are not naturals but nevertheless have amazing dreams. But there can be talent for lucid dreaming.

[DawnEye11]

When I hear natural lucid dreamer I think of it as someone who can lucid dream without much effort. Although discovering it on their own is a part of it,I think another way someone can be natural is by learning it's possible through t.v.,friends or family and be taught that lucid dreaming is a natural process at a young age. Than it can become like a learned skill that you done so much until it became natural to you. Than again another thought is you could be good at it from the point you learn about it.(Sorry I had to edit my thoughts after realizing what Ginsan really meant by discovering it on their own)

[dolphin]

They learn what dreams are like. But by learning what dreams are like, I mean they learn to walk the walk rather than just talk the talk. They learn what dreams are like and are able to apply what they learned in the dream world. They are not always conscious whenever they sleep. They can fall into unconscious sleep like non-naturals. They don't only become aware when they're dreaming. They can be aware of life outside the dream state. They identify the dream state. They are able to identify the dream state because they've learned what it's like and can apply what they learned while dreaming. There's no need for them to say they're in a dream. To them it would be saying the obvious. To them it is like sleeping and waiting for a dream if they're interested in lucid dreaming in the future while falling asleep . Some naturals learn what all dreams are like without ever forgetting what they learned. These are the true naturals. I'm not a true natural but upon experiencing some dreams, I immediately become lucid when I experience them because I've learned beforehand that those dreams are dreams. I learn that they are dreams based on my past experience of them. For example, in my childhood, I had a recurring nightmare. Over time, I learned well enough that the recurring nightmare was a dream that from then on I would become lucid any time I experienced it again. Sometimes, I'll learn that something is a dream, forget what I learned, and have to relearn it again. For example, I have learned and forgotten a few times times that when I wake up to the sound of people, I'm dreaming. When I forget when I learned, upon waking up I just set the intention to become lucid next time I experience that dream. For me, that usually that does the trick with certain dreams. I'm not yet sure how to learn that all dreams are dreams while being able to apply what I learned. That's the goal of course.

[Hormoz]

"There's no need for them to say they're in a dream. To them it would be saying the obvious." By that i meant they knew they are dreaming I didn't meant saying it. "They don't only become aware when they're dreaming. They can be aware of life outside the dream state." I didn't aren't they aware when they are dreaming I meant are they conscious whenever they sleep so they can know they are dreaming like a WILD (In most of times ) or do they just become aware when they are dreaming and recognize they are dreaming (In most of the cases let's say)? Like i think if you had the awareness you had when waking up from sleep in the starting of a dream you could easily know that it is a dream in most of the case(Unless most of your dreams are FAs ). Thank you for answering.

[dolphin]

You know how you know you realize you're awake as soon as you wake up from sleep? This is because you've learned what it's like to be awake and you can remember what you've learned. Naturals become lucid during dreams in the same way. They become aware of the dream as soon as they become conscious during it. In a DILD, they might forget the point where they regained consciousness and thus forget the point during the dream where they became lucid. This results in them being lucid as long as they can remember during the dream without being able to remember how they became lucid in the first place. This is not like a WILD, where the lucidity is first experienced more abruptly due to being more conscious during the transition from waking to dreaming.

[Hormoz]

Is there any difference between what's like to be in this world and in the dream world (I mean the feeling)? By awareness i mean like when you are in a dream even when the dream is in completely another place from where you slept you may not found out it is a dream because you are not that much aware(by another place i mean the looking of the place). but if you wake up in someplace completely different you will probably notice it because your are more aware. In a WILD you don't lose awareness and don't get unconscious so you can be as aware as when you slept in a dream thus knowing it is a dream(unless you have FA and you are in place looking like where you slept but even so you can do a reality check whenever you wake up from a WILD even if you think failed). Are the natural lucid dreamers as aware as before they slept in their dreams?

[dolphin]

In the dream world your body, if you have one, might feel heavier or lighter than in this world. You also might have more difficulty speaking in the dream world. I say might because in terms of feeling there might not be any difference between the real world and the dream world. Natural lucid dreamers can have any amount of awareness before falling asleep.

[Hormoz]

Never heard someone having difficulty speaking in the dream world. I don't mean awareness before falling asleep I mean awareness in a dream. Like I said if you have enough awareness in a dream you can easily find out it is a dream even at the beginning of it but if you don't it doesn't matter that much knowing how does being in a dream feels like because in most cases you could just easily find out you are dreaming by just noticing that you are in a completely different place(unless you have alot of FAs that seem like where you slept). So how can natural lucid dreamer become lucid almost every dream? Is it that they are as aware as before they slept in their dreams?

[dolphin]

Natural lucid dreamers become lucid almost every dream by learning what those dreams are like beforehand well enough that they are able to apply what they learned when they are dreaming. How they learn this, I'm not sure. If I knew, I'd do it myself if I didn't have to put too much effort into it. There might be a variety of ways to learn what dreams are like. As you mention, one way could be learn what it's like to be awake well enough that you learn what it's like not to be awake.

[Hormoz]

Thank you for answering. By awareness I don't mean being awake or not being in the dream world. let me tell you an example: If you wake up and see your yourself in a completely different place you will probably notice the difference. But some people may not even notice difference in place when they are in a dream. I think that's because the difference between the awareness. By awareness i mean that so If someone can't even notice the difference in places and found out that the he/she is dreaming it means he/she will probably not notice the difference of the feelings so not become lucid. But if someone is as aware as before the person slept in the dream that person can become easily lucid in most cases by just noticing the difference in places(unless you can have FAs that seem like where you slept). So in this case knowing how a dream feels like may not help that much(what you are saying natural lucid dreamers do).

[MadMonkey]

Thank you for answering. By awareness I don't mean being awake or not being in the dream world. let me tell you an example: If you wake up and see your yourself in a completely different place you will probably notice the difference. But some people may not even notice difference in place when they are in a dream. To notice you are in a different place requires that you remember that you went to sleep in the first place. When we enter dreams we loose access to those recent memories and often fabricate new ones. For example, if you found yourself in Paris you might have a false memory of being on vacation. You probably won't even question it in the first place because people are usually confident that they are where they are for a good reason. Still, if you make it a habit of remembering where you were it could get you some lucid dreams but this I not what naturals do. What Dolphin means is that naturals are already so experienced at lucid dreaming that they don't have to really do anything. They just know. How they got to that point I don't know for sure but I suspect it is from a strong imagination and interest in dreams durring childhood. Most people have this curiosity drained away by a society that pays little value to dreams. Those who remain curious long enough will have had more experience with dreams which manifests as tallent for lucid dreaming into adult hood. When you are first learning lucid dreaming methods you are, in a way, reprograming your brain. Children are programing their brain for the first time so it's much easier and intuitive. As adults we build our experiences through disciplined dream journaling and reality checks. After a while it becomes second nature which is the goal. Even our best non-naturals can attest that most of their DILDs come not from RCs but from vague feelings and their WILDs from knowing the feeling of the transition.

[Hormoz]

To notice you are in a different place requires that you remember that you went to sleep in the first place. When we enter dreams we loose access to those recent memories and often fabricate new ones. For example, if you found yourself in Paris you might have a false memory of being on vacation. You probably won't even question it in the first place because people are usually confident that they are where they are for a good reason. Still, if you make it a habit of remembering where you were it could get you some lucid dreams but this I not what naturals do. I disagree with this. There is a theory that sometimes when you go to a dream you have think of alot of thoughts that's where the memories come from like thinking i would go on a trip and they are not false memories(thinking with low awareness so you may not notice that those thoughts are wrong). The reason why you not notice that you are dreaming is because of the difference between awareness like people sometimes even when they become lucid with a DILD they didn't do what they wanted to that's what they call semi-lucid. It is because of the low awareness that they had. Actually i think semi-lucid is knowing that you are dreaming but not having that much awareness. I think the main reason why WILD works is because you have the awareness of before you slept when entering a dream and also you notice the entering. "When you are first learning lucid dreaming methods you are, in a way, reprograming your brain. Children are programing their brain for the first time so it's much easier and intuitive." I disagree with that too. But when you get a habit it may be harder to don't do it as you get used to it. Anyway thank you for answering.

[dolphin]

Awareness is not everything when it comes to lucidity. To become lucid, not only does one have to be aware of the dream, they also have to remember that it's a dream. In order for them to remember it's a dream, they have to have learned beforehand what a dream is like, that way they can expect to be dreaming when they are. If somebody doesn't expect to be dreaming and hasn't learned well enough what one is, even if strong evidence that they're dreaming is presented, it can be rejected due to their confirmation bias associated with the strong expectation that they are not dreaming.

[Hormoz]

Isn't that one of things reality checks are for so if you want to get sure you are in the dream world you can do a reality check?

[dolphin]

Yes that's what reality checks are for. Some people also use reality checks as a way to learn what a dream is and to encourage remembering what one is during a dream. They might tell themselves next time I see something weird (they say this to learn that dreams contain weird things), I will do a reality check (they do this to remember dreaming during the dream). They might also practice this during the day to build the habit, but what really matters is whether they maintain the habit while they're sleeping and dreaming.

[DawnEye11]

I've been here for a while thinking about this thread and reading what you guys are talking about. I feel like adding more to the discussion but nope. Feels like almost everything has been said.I agree though. Also, for some reason when you guys say you are unsure about how they do it, it feels like your just saying the answer of how they are able to do it. Although when I think about it this is probably not true. Those who remain curious long enough will have had more experience with dreams which manifests as talent for lucid dreaming into adult hood. I've been lucid dreaming for most of my life,curious about it and don't consider myself talented.But now that I think about it the main cause of it was my fear of obe,spirits, and dream meanings coming true.But I don't pay attention to obe or dream meanings anymore. Thoughts about spirits...sometimes.

[Sageous]

First, in my opinion, pretty much everything in MadMonkey's post was spot-on accurate: it really is the lack of access to memory and the lack of the waking-life self-awareness necessary to remember that things aren't right in a dream that prevents you from becoming lucid. Contrary to much of what you might read on the forums, normal awareness, logic, and consciousness, work just fine in a NLD; what is missing is waking-life self-awareness, and access to memory... so then: There is a theory that sometimes when you go to a dream you have think of alot of thoughts that's where the memories come from like thinking i would go on a trip and they are not false memories(thinking with low awareness so you may not notice that those thoughts are wrong). ^^ this theory is, in my opinion, not correct. You don't have to think a lot of thoughts to generate memories, ever, and the false memories/histories created by your dreaming mind really have nothing to do with thoughts your DC "You" might be thinking at the time. As for my own opinion on the topic: There really are no natural lucid dreamers. Or, if there are people who possess a lifelong ability to be lucid anytime they want, they are incredibly rare and special people. This is because being awake while you are asleep is not a natural condition, and you must learn how to do it -- how to include the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in a place where it was never meant, physically, to be (that place being the dream). As folks above have already said, quite well, natural LD'ers are probably people who came to learn to LD on their own, perhaps at a very early age, and the techniques they use to become lucid are so embedded in their psyche at this point that they don't really need to do much or even think about it to become lucid. Finally, in case this is what you were looking for in the OP: You probably will not be able to learn how naturals become lucid because, being naturals, they literally do not know -- that's what makes them naturals! They really don't possess a secret shortcut to LD'ing; they are simply more experienced and comfortable with the state... even if a natural did manage to remember and explain the process he developed to become lucid easily, you would still need to spend time learning and practicing that process, and then gain the experience necessary to finally and easily know you are dreaming.

[DawnEye11]

If you don't mind me jumping in again I still don't get how you can learn something and not know the process. That is confusing. Also,is lucid dreaming really not natural? I can understand everyday being too much but is frequent lucid dreaming bad?

[Hormoz]

If you don't mind me jumping in again I still don't get how you can learn something and not know the process. That is confusing. Also,is lucid dreaming really not natural? I can understand everyday being too much but is frequent lucid dreaming bad? It's fine. Maybe they remember the process or have a state of mind that they can become lucid and they didn't train to become lucid like you train for football but it also may make you better in running. Lucid dreaming is not unnatural and it isn't bad.

[DawnEye11]

It's fine. Maybe they remember the process or have a state of mind that they can become lucid and they didn't train to become lucid like you train for football but it also may make you better in running. Lucid dreaming is not unnatural and it isn't bad. But than again that is pretty much intent. Still part of a process even if small. It's good to know it isn't bad but I want to know why Sageous said it is not a natural condition. Thanks for replying though. ^ w ^

[Hormoz]

I think what sageous meant was that being conscious while sleeping or maybe lucid dreaming is not something you know or you can do from the beginning and you have to learn it or something like that. I don't think sageous meant that it is harmful.

[DawnEye11]

I think what sageous meant was that being conscious while sleeping or maybe lucid dreaming is not something you know or you can do from the beginning and you have to learn it or something like that. Okay I thought it over. By beginning do you mean from nothing?Sorry I'm confused.

[dolphin]

Something natural is something that is NOT caused by human kind. So, if only humans can lucid dream, then it is not natural, but if other animals can, then it is. Various primates and elephants also have the dreams, memory, self-awareness, and learning ability needed to lucid dream. It can't yet be proven that these other animals with the abilities needed for lucid dreams can have them, so it can't yet be proven whether lucid dreaming is natural or not. The ingredients of lucid dreams are natural, but the combining of them might not be. I don't see how frequently lucid dreaming could be harmful, though.

[DawnEye11]

Something natural is something that is NOT caused by human kind. So, if only humans can lucid dream, then it is not natural, but if other animals can, then it is. Various primates and elephants also have the dreams, memory, self-awareness, and learning ability needed to lucid dream. It can't yet be proven that these other animals with the abilities needed for lucid dreams can have them, so it can't yet be proven whether lucid dreaming is natural or not. The ingredients of lucid dreams are natural, but the combining of them might not be. I don't see how frequently lucid dreaming could be harmful, though. Wow,I did not know that animals were used to classify what is natural for humans.Especially since we think different than they do.(Even though there are similarities like you mentioned)What do you mean by combining though?Also, thanks for replying as well.^^