Thread: Why it's hard to get to the Moon

Hi floatinghead. I haven't had time to more than skim the recent additions to this thread, but here are a couple of comments, in hopes that they clarify some issues rather than confusing them more.

When I joined the forum two and a half years ago, about three months before Sageous, people were going gangbusters with 'dream plane' exploration, which I think is great. But for better or for worse there didn't seem to be much attempt to distinguish what is objectively and collectively real from what is personal and subjective. You touched on this point earlier, when you mentioned that there seems to be a distinction between 'The moon' and the moon of particular dreamers and groups of dreamers. To spin it positively, some people like WakingNomad recognized that if people try to hard to analyze this sort of thing to the end, that's interfering with their progress they're not actually out there doing it. Or to spin it negatively, some people wanted to be adepts of The Astral Plane or The Dream World, and were intolerant of other people that brought a different perspective because it undermined that position. Or they were proud of what they'd accomplished, and felt that it was being attacked. Or some combination of these and other motivations. There were a lot of people here that don't post anymore, and I've forgotten their screen names.

It has appeared to me that Sageous felt that he brought something a little bit different to the table, and that it was brushed away as wrong or irrelevant. I think that some of this also reflects some internal frustration, that he has felt he's on the cusp of something, but can't quite put together what comes next, and correctly perceives that what other people have been advocating isn't quite the ticket for him. To some extent I'm guessing because he posted a lot on other subforums that I don't read, but this has been my impression. So he's not really against shared dreaming, he's just trying to make a place for what he knows and perceives to be of value, while resisting ways of thinking that he sees as hostile to that. Principally, to whatever extent people make stuff up and believe its real, that's hostile to everything that's not included, particularly to the extent that people push their own perspective at the exclusion of other perspectives.

About three years ago I dreamed of some people who I could not see, but it felt sort of like they were pretending to be ninjas. In regards to me, they observed 'he can not perceive space'. Afterwards I thought maybe these were alien minds or something, and were commenting on some limitation of the way I experience reality. So I tried to think if I could be aware of 'space', independent of the characteristics and interrelations between objects in space. That may have been part of the meaning of the dream, but with retrospect, those 'ninjas' were a premonition of DreamViews people who were into dream plane fighting, for self defense and killing 'dream police' and whatnot, and their comment was simply that I'm mostly unaware of their visual environment when dreaming lucidly, which is true.

I think this is another facet of the criticisms of people like myself and Sageous - this astral kung fu stuff is largely projected, and a lot of it is unhealthy. If you can't tell what's yours from what's not yours, how can you deal effectively with what's unhealthy? Hence the value of recognizing what is collectively inherent in our dream plane, as distinct from what we're putting there ourselves that can be changed. I think there are valid arguments on the other side too. Just because I don't dream of fighting people or demons doesn't mean that I don't struggle with things or that I'm not threatened by things that take a less definite form. So I'd like to share what I can, while learning from people different than me, to form some kind of better synthesis of the different approaches. But its difficult, because its hard to share such perspectives without people feeling disrespected. Its pretty clear to me, for instance, that Sageous respected WakingNomad, and I respected WakingNomad also. But since we viewed him differently than he viewed himself, and viewed ourselves differently than he viewed us, it can be difficult for that respect to stand above the apparent disrespect that's unavoidable given our different perspectives. I guess we all have to be willing to accept a certain amount of derision also. And I'm not too proud to say that I think I deserve some of it, if only some of it.

Usually when I try to interject myself somewhere and fix things up by 'explaining' everything it just pisses everyone off even if they weren't pissed off before. But I guess I never stop trying, even though in a lot of ways I'm the most aggressive person on here, I also want everybody to be one big happy family. I think the different parts of the family need each other.

I realize that I've been talking as if people have been fighting, when in fact people haven't really been fighting. I'm just trying to highlight some of the conflict that underlies some of these debates, for the sake of understanding it, even though its not the sole or even the most important thing that's been going on.

Gotta go.

Subjectivity coupled together with hard obtained data makes one more likely to defend his position.
For sake of our spiritual progress there is need to be more open minded... but healthy skepticism is essential in my opinion. Mainly because of non measurable subjective perception of this kind of activity.
Statistic is also not infallible, I would be very cautious to use statistic in this kind of investigation. One can obtain statistically sound proof and also disproof of theory- and that from the same data.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Hi floatinghead. I haven't had time to more than skim the recent additions to this thread, but here are a couple of comments, in hopes that they clarify some issues rather than confusing them more.

When I joined the forum two and a half years ago, about three months before Sageous, people were going gangbusters with 'dream plane' exploration, which I think is great. But for better or for worse there didn't seem to be much attempt to distinguish what is objectively and collectively real from what is personal and subjective. You touched on this point earlier, when you mentioned that there seems to be a distinction between 'The moon' and the moon of particular dreamers and groups of dreamers. To spin it positively, some people like WakingNomad recognized that if people try to hard to analyze this sort of thing to the end, that's interfering with their progress they're not actually out there doing it. Or to spin it negatively, some people wanted to be adepts of The Astral Plane or The Dream World, and were intolerant of other people that brought a different perspective because it undermined that position. Or they were proud of what they'd accomplished, and felt that it was being attacked. Or some combination of these and other motivations. There were a lot of people here that don't post anymore, and I've forgotten their screen names.

It has appeared to me that Sageous felt that he brought something a little bit different to the table, and that it was brushed away as wrong or irrelevant. I think that some of this also reflects some internal frustration, that he has felt he's on the cusp of something, but can't quite put together what comes next, and correctly perceives that what other people have been advocating isn't quite the ticket for him. To some extent I'm guessing because he posted a lot on other subforums that I don't read, but this has been my impression. So he's not really against shared dreaming, he's just trying to make a place for what he knows and perceives to be of value, while resisting ways of thinking that he sees as hostile to that. Principally, to whatever extent people make stuff up and believe its real, that's hostile to everything that's not included, particularly to the extent that people push their own perspective at the exclusion of other perspectives.

About three years ago I dreamed of some people who I could not see, but it felt sort of like they were pretending to be ninjas. In regards to me, they observed 'he can not perceive space'. Afterwards I thought maybe these were alien minds or something, and were commenting on some limitation of the way I experience reality. So I tried to think if I could be aware of 'space', independent of the characteristics and interrelations between objects in space. That may have been part of the meaning of the dream, but with retrospect, those 'ninjas' were a premonition of DreamViews people who were into dream plane fighting, for self defense and killing 'dream police' and whatnot, and their comment was simply that I'm mostly unaware of their visual environment when dreaming lucidly, which is true.

I think this is another facet of the criticisms of people like myself and Sageous - this astral kung fu stuff is largely projected, and a lot of it is unhealthy. If you can't tell what's yours from what's not yours, how can you deal effectively with what's unhealthy? Hence the value of recognizing what is collectively inherent in our dream plane, as distinct from what we're putting there ourselves that can be changed. I think there are valid arguments on the other side too. Just because I don't dream of fighting people or demons doesn't mean that I don't struggle with things or that I'm not threatened by things that take a less definite form. So I'd like to share what I can, while learning from people different than me, to form some kind of better synthesis of the different approaches. But its difficult, because its hard to share such perspectives without people feeling disrespected. Its pretty clear to me, for instance, that Sageous respected WakingNomad, and I respected WakingNomad also. But since we viewed him differently than he viewed himself, and viewed ourselves differently than he viewed us, it can be difficult for that respect to stand above the apparent disrespect that's unavoidable given our different perspectives. I guess we all have to be willing to accept a certain amount of derision also. And I'm not too proud to say that I think I deserve some of it, if only some of it.

Usually when I try to interject myself somewhere and fix things up by 'explaining' everything it just pisses everyone off even if they weren't pissed off before. But I guess I never stop trying, even though in a lot of ways I'm the most aggressive person on here, I also want everybody to be one big happy family. I think the different parts of the family need each other.

I realize that I've been talking as if people have been fighting, when in fact people haven't really been fighting. I'm just trying to highlight some of the conflict that underlies some of these debates, for the sake of understanding it, even though its not the sole or even the most important thing that's been going on.

Gotta go.

Hi Shadow - thanks for filling me in!

I love the idea of having a kind of 'big happy family' that you referred to. Especially since, at it's core we are all talking about the same thing! I really do think it is a matter of perspective (for the majority of the time at least) . For example, rather than talk about wyrms being cut up into pieces which caused the original worm holes - if Nomad had put it a different way, more of a scientific hypothesis which involved mathematically calculated reasons behind how when the big bang occurred this would have split and formed other elements such as black holes to form all over the universe (or some such thing) and presented it as a hypothesis he would have not only drawn in a different kind of crowd but possibly would have had more more accepting response. (perhaps, and perhaps the underlining meaning behind what he 'saw' has nothing to do with actual perceived worm holes encountered in dreams and was meant to be received more of a fable than anything else) The bottom line is that at it's core we are all talking about the same thing. Whenever ANYTHING is presented within the dreaming we can only take the information with a pinch of salt and an open mind. What we receive there is filtered through our individual translators and this is why it may come across like we are perceiving different things sometimes - but be assured they are the same (in my opinion at least!)

I suppose that has always been the reason why dreaming has not made more progress than it rightly should have; because we try to measure it using the same physical instruments we measure THIS reality by. By stepping back and try to see the bigger picture here (rather than get bogged down by the smaller inconsistencies) we can start to understand the real nature of this other 'reality'.

Regarding others perceived ideas that we must 'fight' our way through dreams with other more deviant forces. I agree with you, that at first I had a real problem personally with this notion: why should there be negative forces out there where by I need to 'arm' myself in order to defend myself? Isn't it silly, within this (possibly) spiritual place that we should lower ourselves to such, urm, physical primal urges? But no, if you REALLY think about it it DOES make sense. Again, look at it not in the literal sense but in a more figurative view point. Whether we like it or not the universe consists of ying and yang, bad and good, order and entropy (viewed within a scientific framework) It makes complete sense that within us and outside of us there exists both bad and good intentions. How we choose to encounter these forces however is purely up to us. Some would feel talking to malevolent forces would work, others would prefer to project love in order to dispel these negative elements while others still would consume these negative energies into themselves as a way of excepting our darker side. And some would defeat these forces using kung-foo and such like. None of these are wrong, they are just different ways of perceiving the same thing - the result is the same = order has prevailed over entropy (another reason why I started seeing this 'fighting' within the dreaming differently was because, I kind of walked in on a conversation with myself and my dreamguide (who I did not know existed at the time) and she was trying to teach me how to use telekinesis within the dreaming in order for me to help protect myself (and also felt that learning how to fight and use powers was a fun way to quickly learn dream control) my daughter is also aware of her Dream guide teaching her how to fight within the dreaming and she has no notion of others doing this within the dreaming and I did not speak to her about it until she told me.

In regards to what you were saying about not knowing the difference between what is yours and not yous - what is 'real' and 'self projected' This has always been my issue while trying to navigate my way in the dreaming. But as long as you are 'fighting' (in which ever way you choose) what you perceive to be darker forces, whether it is your own or something exterior - I do not think that it would be 'unhealthy' . Humanity needs to defeat our negative side in order to evolve in a more healthy manner.

Ultimately though I feel that we are ALL connected, and my suspicion is that whenever we dream of anyone we are actually dreaming of at least a PART of them, it is my suspicion that shared dreaming always happens on at least a very small scale, it is the degrees of connection that are relevant to us though.

Originally Posted by Psionik

Subjectivity coupled together with hard obtained data makes one more likely to defend his position.
For sake of our spiritual progress there is need to be more open minded... but healthy skepticism is essential in my opinion. Mainly because of non measurable subjective perception of this kind of activity.
Statistic is also not infallible, I would be very cautious to use statistic in this kind of investigation. One can obtain statistically sound proof and also disproof of theory- and that from the same data.

absolutely! The only thing to be cautious of would be to how decide we would use and measure the data collected in a fair and accurate way: too relating it too this reality too much and we will be missing valuable information, while relying too much on symbolic interpretation will lead to false positives!

I would LOVE to get together with a group of you guys who are open skeptics to figure this thing out. I feel at present shared dreaming, if proven is absolutely the most important breakthrough one could hope for within this scientifically led age. If proven and adopted successfully within the main stream it would open up so many more doors to other lines of research, and would bring us one step closer into understanding the energy which makes us human (or soul if you prefer) as a viable scientific possibility

What I want to recomnend all and everybody, who has put his nose in here and sees it:

Spoiler for Some Text To The Video:

A look at the mysteries of black holes and theories about the existence of other kinds of holes, such as "mini" or microscopic black holes that exist at the atomic level; "white holes" -- the opposite of black holes where matter is eject out; and "wormholes" -- gateways in hyperspace that connect points in space and time and possibly lead to other dimensions.

A black hole is a region of spacetime from which gravity prevents anything, including light, from escaping. The theory of general relativity predicts that a sufficiently compact mass will deform spacetime to form a black hole. Around a black hole, there is a mathematically defined surface called an event horizon that marks the point of no return. The hole is called "black" because it absorbs all the light that hits the horizon, reflecting nothing, just like a perfect black body in thermodynamics. Quantum field theory in curved spacetime predicts that event horizons emit radiation like a black body with a finite temperature. This temperature is inversely proportional to the mass of the black hole, making it difficult to observe this radiation for black holes of stellar mass or greater.

Objects whose gravity fields are too strong for light to escape were first considered in the 18th century by John Michell and Pierre-Simon Laplace. The first modern solution of general relativity that would characterize a black hole was found by Karl Schwarzschild in 1916, although its interpretation as a region of space from which nothing can escape was first published by David Finkelstein in 1958. Long considered a mathematical curiosity, it was during the 1960s that theoretical work showed black holes were a generic prediction of general relativity. The discovery of neutron stars sparked interest in gravitationally collapsed compact objects as a possible astrophysical reality.

A wormhole, also known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that would be, fundamentally, a "shortcut" through spacetime. For a simple visual explanation of a wormhole, consider spacetime visualized as a two-dimensional (2D) surface. If this surface is folded along a third dimension, it allows one to picture a wormhole "bridge". (Please note, though, that this is merely a visualization displayed to convey an essentially unvisualisable structure existing in 4 or more dimensions. The parts of the wormhole could be higher-dimensional analogues for the parts of the curved 2D surface; for example, instead of mouths which are circular holes in a 2D plane, a real wormhole's mouths could be spheres in 3D space.) A wormhole is, in theory, much like a tunnel with two ends each in separate points in spacetime.

There is no observational evidence for wormholes, but on a theoretical level there are valid solutions to the equations of the theory of general relativity which contain wormholes. Because of its robust theoretical strength, a wormhole is also known as one of the great physics metaphors for teaching general relativity. The first type of wormhole solution discovered was the Schwarzschild wormhole which would be present in the Schwarzschild metric describing an eternal black hole, but it was found that this type of wormhole would collapse too quickly for anything to cross from one end to the other. Wormholes which could actually be crossed in both directions, known as traversable wormholes, would only be possible if exotic matter with negative energy density could be used to stabilize them. (Many physicists such as Stephen Hawking, Kip Thorne, and others believe that the Casimir effect is evidence that negative energy densities are possible in nature.) Physicists have not found any natural process which would be predicted to form a wormhole naturally in the context of general relativity, although the quantum foam hypothesis is sometimes used to suggest that tiny wormholes might appear and disappear spontaneously at the Planck scale, and stable versions of such wormholes have been suggested as dark matter candidates. It has also been proposed that if a tiny wormhole held open by a negative-mass cosmic string had appeared around the time of the Big Bang, it could have been inflated to macroscopic size by cosmic inflation.

The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957; however, in 1921, the German mathematician Hermann Weyl already had proposed the wormhole theory, in connection with mass analysis of electromagnetic field energy.

Get wondering - and to know some more, and also to know more about what we still don´t know - and enjoy the optics..


They take up the point, that indeed the science fiction novel "Contact" (later also the movie..) of Carl Sagan did in the late 90s sort of spark a new interest in wormholes esp. on the theoretical physicists side of the scientific community - wow, I didn´t know that - well done Sagan!

There is a lot of background and outlooks, on what really might be possible.
The laws of physics allow for it - that is the magic phrase.
Travelling wormholes and instant-space and time-travel - and more.
But also that wormholes and white holes are still in the realm of only theoretical entities - "the unicorns of physics" or "one of the great physics metaphors for teaching general relativity".
We have yet to find and observe these two but so it was in the past for black holes as well!

Quite funny, when Clifford Johnson takes a bite of an apple a bit after 8 min!

Isn´t this a great time, ours, where we contemplate this sort of topic in a scientific matter with adding - not taking away from the wonder!

excellent - thank you for that! I truly believe that there is an equal place for both science and spiritualism where they both can co-exist, and this post above gives an excellent example of that. I agree, contact was a great film in the subject matter it was tackling - it bought together different elements in such a unique and new way (it makes me want to watch it again!)

Stephl, :3 thats my favourate science program series, have you watched the other parts too ? They're plain awesome. This series gives me a reasonable part of who I am today , my own theories are inspired from this series :3

Originally Posted by floatinghead

excellent - thank you for that! I truly believe that there is an equal place for both science and spiritualism where they both can co-exist, and this post above gives an excellent example of that. I agree, contact was a great film in the subject matter it was tackling - it bought together different elements in such a unique and new way (it makes me want to watch it again!)

I find it really great as well, that a piece of fiction - but a clever one - is able to influence what scientists are choosing to mull over more deeply.
I think, I will get myself the book - suspecting a much richer experience even..
smile.gif

Originally Posted by tP97

Stephl, :3 thats my favourate science program series, have you watched the other parts too ? They're plain awesome. This series gives me a reasonable part of who I am today , my own theories are inspired from this series :3

Niice - no I didn´t watch the other parts - but I will!
I can also say that there are really many great videos I have seen on youtube about science - and of course not only such things - which have formed my world-view and informed me, where I was interested in more detail and insight.

May I suggest to take a look in here: What We Still Don´t Know?

I came to open this thread from an inspiration, another 3 part video documentary sparked in me.
I guess, you will love these!
Enjoy!
smile.gif




What still irks me in general with the OP are several things.

For once - this is instilling his very personal belief system into other people´s minds - as if we wouldn´t have enough of these belief-systems already!

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Wormholes

Wormholes are tunnels, warp holes in the fabric of space and time, with a "2D" portal on each end.

Whenever you do instant traveling you go through a wormhole (and possibly when you teleport, but not sure.)

No - you don´t - you travel your mind.
Whenever you travel in your dreams - and where ever you take your metaphors for making it easier for you - this is your choice.

This is my take on it as a novice.
But what comes to mind here is primarily dutchraptor and what he got to say about dream-control - what limits you are your preconceptions, that something needs a portal, energy, a certain technique: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ilization.html


If there was even the shortest mention, that what he proposes here for the world of dreams, is nothing more than his personal metaphor and does not have objective validity for other dreamers - I would say - nice - some imagination.
But it does sound pretty naive as well to me - sorry there - but note "sounds like" and "to me"..
Especially it sounds like being an unnecessary, self-inflicted reduction of possible experience.
Fine by me.
But why put this in front of others as "The Truth" and a revelation about reality of such an importance, that only now he can safely share with humankind?

Luckily - many dreamers on here do exhibit much more creativity, imagination and thinking for themselves when it comes to judging how hard it might be to get to the moon, and how to create their own means and metaphors - 100 % wyrm-free..wink.gif

Here the take of people responding in interesting and inspiring ways about how to.. see yourselves:

Originally Posted by Waterknight

Which is really what I meant by he would be crazy if he called these Ideas true for everyone. Dont get me wrong I have a lot of respect for Nomad its just that when I read some of his stuff he seems to put out radical ideas and states them as facts that are universally true. My dreams include an entirely different mythology that I hold true for myself but not for anyone else.

What I am saying is that I BELIEVE that there is no universal laws when it comes to dreaming. What is true for him is not always true for me or for you.

Exactly!


Here we go - only a selection from the beginning of the thread - a great diversity of tips without having to find wormholes with sick creatures in them:

Originally Posted by spockman

I do not get at all why you would need to use wormholes in dreamspace. If it is a teleportation thing, and you would need wormholes to teleport, perhaps this could have some validity in reality. But I can use a raygun as my weapon of choice in the dreamscape. Rayguns in real life- they would use up alot of energy. Do I have to find an in dream energy crystal and fight the parasites living off of the crystals to get it? I doubt it. I am not being sarcastic and not trying to be belligerent at all, man, I am just opposing the concept that we would need to travel through astral wormholes to get to a place not constructed in the material world but constructed purely by the mind, (even the minds of many people combined.)

Originally Posted by Alsroge

I would like to pose knowledge and creativity as the answer. .. answers seems pretty clear to me. The atmosphere/space are one of the most misunderstood subjects to almost everybody. I hardly bet anybody could tell me the layers of the atmosphere or what REALLY to expect after leaving each one and entering space. Distance isn't usually an issue in dreams, so it shouldn't be with the moon. With knowledge comes power, though; I believe the problem with flying to the moon is that one gets so confused when they get to the atmosphere/space. Few people will be able to manage this completely foreign territory, and his or her attention might be stuck on it, causing some problems for the subconscious with getting 'stuck' there. I would suggest a moon-flying-hopeful to prepare beforehand by learning a bit about the atmosphere.
... As spockman said though, changing expectations and reality are essentially what I'm proposing also.

Nice idea – but as he says himself in the end – not needed.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

The problem with flying to the moon has to do with perspective ratios. In order to have movement, you have to be moving relative to something else. Once you get far enough away from the earth, you have nothing to gauge your movement against. It's not like there are trees and lamp posts along the side of the road or anything. Without these markers you lose all sense of movement which screws with your flight.

That's what makes flying directly to the moon difficult, and flying at the speed of light impossible.

This makes a lot of sense to me!

Originally Posted by spockman

That is an interesting point, but I think I can get around it.Point a flashlight at the moon. Turn it on. Try and race the light ray to the moon. Use the ray of light as your reference, hopefully you will be matching it's speed and be able to see the end of the ray of light. Also, use the moon as a point of reference to some degree. Use the fact that it is getting larger and larger as you edge up on it as a way to gauge distance from your target. If I had already transformed the world into an anime/video game to make my expectations for the fantastic, this should be doable.

Methods abound – creativity seems the key..

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Sure, you could do that... But that would be like wanting a steak for dinner, but going about preparing it by first genetically engineering a cow. The more unnecessary steps you create, the farther you are from your goal. You need to remain fluid in dreams and be able to abandon something that isn't working for you.

Second rule of dream control: The more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates. When you method reaches the point where you need to start adding things for it to succeed, then it's become an unnecessary distraction. The method you're trying to use is an obstacle to attaining your goal.

I can't really give a specific method to get to the moon without giving another unnecessary distraction to hook your attention. But it doesn't have to be a difficult thing to accomplish. Just keep your eye on the prize and ignore anything that isn't helpful to reaching your goals.

Loving the cow-thing!

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I just thought of something that might simplify flying to the moon. Use the moon's gravitational pull. If you can get a feel for the gravity of the moon pulling you, that should make it much easier to fly there directly

Good advice by the read of it!

Originally Posted by Polarity

I personally think that it is us to put limit to our dreams. We can't do something because we are born within the waking life and thus we've grown following its laws.
On the dream plane, we must leave all of the waking life laws and embrace freedom.

This is what I personally think as well!



Here come the successful moon-flyers – only from in here - I wonder, how many more have accomplished this task of the year back then without wormholes..?

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

In my successful flights to the Moon and Mars, I fixed the issue by looking down at Earth and "zooming out" in a Google-Earth-like fashion. Though, the hard part about doing that proved to be slowing down and resuming normal movement and flight; landing was a bitch, let me tell you. QFT

Originally Posted by Eonnn

Its not hard for me to get to the moon. I just fly up high into the sky, go into space, then fly straight to the moon.

Originally Posted by saltyseedog

I had a lucid a week ago where I was staring at the moon, and then I got sucked up super fast and was on the surface of the moon looking at the earth. Then I got ripped off the surface through space. It was pretty intense.

Originally Posted by Mayatara

Here's my second dream on the moon… goes on to cite

Originally Posted by Erii

I didn't even use worm holes when I went, I just started flying into the sky

Originally Posted by Atras

The first time I tried to get to the moon, I succeeded.

As the following posts go - WN actually steps back from this assertions, and accepts that there are other possibilities:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

..

Awesome. Raven, Q, and I recently terraformed the Moon! In the City of Nowhere, there is a man, Jose, who grows strange sentient plants! He was in one of my first dreams of that city.

Awesome! Is it in your DJ? Come to the Tower and the Biodome.

Nice. Is it in your DJ?

That is cool! The way I fly is also through repelling gravity! Fascinating.

I remember this dream. Thanks for posting it here!

Check yourself, what he is answering to there - mostly congratulating others for travelling without wormholes.
How then can it be that he has a truth to reveal of vast importance, if it does not cause him, to say that these people must have travelled the wormholes and now they do not remember?
That would be making sense in his system.

Even more strange, that he comes along with allegedly using gravity all of a sudden?
How is it possible to remember a shared dream from long before the thread, where he simply seemed to have flown there with Raven?
Okay - maybe they both didn´t perceive them that night.


He does behave here, as if the OP would indeed, and after all - have only been his private metaphors and not a revelation on the very fabric of the dream world.
Which as I said would have been a nice touch in the OP.



How can you follow the following with a residue of acceptance..?

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

The War of the Wyrms

Eons ago, the god of This World, Nevergawn, The Puppetmaster of Puppetmasters, The One Who Loves Control, decided he would take control over all the wormholes leaving This World, Urth.

His archenemy, the One Who Loves Freedom, Gawn had, in the mind of Nevergawn, abandoned Urth to create a Dream Warrior Planet.

Nevergawn believed if he could control the wormholes, he could keep dreamers from leaving Urth, thus keeping them here and stealing their energy, and keeping them ignorant of other worlds.

Each wormhole was guarded by a great Wyrm, a cold drake, fierce and powerful with skin like a man, and eyes burning with a dark fire. Nevergawn and his army of demons declared war on the Wormhole Wyrms. The demons killed the wyrms over and over, but being immortal, the wyrms always came back to life. Finally, the demons ripped the Wyrms into tiny pieces to delay them from reforming.

The Wyrms will eventually put themselves back together, but it will take eons.

Other entities may enter the wormholes and heal the Wyrms, thus healing the wormholes, but most dreamers of Urth don't even perceive wormholes as they fly through them, just as they do not perceive the darkness of their blinks. When a Wyrm reforms, he will attack the parasites, and create an ecosystem in the wormhole, which keeps it free of parasites.

The wormholes are infested with all manner of energy parasites which stick to a dreamer's dream body, and sap their energy. Oftentimes, a dreamer won't make it through a wormhole, because energy parasites sap all their strength before they make it through.

But, you don't perceive it, just as you would not perceive yourself only blinking halfway.

Marvellous - so - in my dreams, Nevergawn the Puppetmaster and his loyal space-demons, other diverse entities and worm-hole-parasites will sap away my very own personal energy and strength in my dreams??


And how practical - a built in hypothesis, why you maybe don´t instantly get infected by his views - you just do not perceive it - but of course it´s all there anyway..??

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Don't take my word for it.

Try these tasks:

1) Get to the Moon.

(It's a Task of the Year, but very few have done it.)

2) Perceive a wormhole.

(Hard to do because you go through them so quickly.)

Advanced:

1) Go to Mars.

2) Explore a wormhole.

You will find these are very hard to do. For someone like Walms, it is not hard to do, because he automatically battles anything that attacks him in a wormhole, even if he doesn't remember.

In a shared dream that he does not remember, but Raven and I do very well, he and I battled one-on-one. I lost 0-5. He is very good at dream battling. People who do a lot of dream battling will find it easier to travel to the moon.

Nice.
Just what we novices need..wink.gif





Rant over - it´s not I would not post this, if WN would still be around in his thread - maybe I even would have come to a better understanding of his way to interpret the world and maybe following such an exchange would have manifested something worth a bit more of a while - who knows.

The best I can imagine to come of this post of mine here would be having inspired people with the quotes.
Inspired to go flying into space in their dreams and having provided by repetition and overview once more all the wonderful tips and tricks for doing it!
Oh yeah - and this does definitively include going by wormholes and make it a game to find and help the poor ripped up wyrms - you should find some, when looking hard enough into the realm of your imagination!
smile.gif

But I am definitively not afraid of WN or anybody getting at me in which ever way in this context here ..tongue.gif
Just saying..

^^ Interesting summary/rant, Stephl, thanks for sharing, and welcome to the curious world of WakingNomad!

If he were still here with us (and he may well be, because his last post was just a month go), I think Mr. Nomad's response would be something like:

"Wormholes are real."

Over time I've found it very difficult to argue with WakingNomad, but have never doubted his sincerity. He consistently maintained that all this stuff (and more) is true, but, as you noticed, has been willing to accept that other truths may exist -- even if they're not as true as his!

Enough apologizing for a man who I believe expects no apologies (and couldn't care less about such things)...Maybe you'll come on, WakingNomad, and clarify?

Aside from that, the even more curious thing I noticed so many of the posts was a combination of assuming that travel to the moon is difficult and basing so much of this travel on the rules of the physical world. This could be because WakingNomad's OP built that complexity into the problem, I suppose, but travel to the moon is about as hard as crossing a street in a dream (hell, sometimes it's harder to cross a street!).

It is exactly as hard to float one inch above a dreamscape's ground as it is to whisk yourself to the moon. There is no light in dreams, so the speed of light does not matter; there is no space in dreams, so distance does not matter (and by extension, neither do wormholes, perspectives, etc); there is no physical energy in dreams, so propulsion doesn't matter; and so on. All that matters is your imagination, and to keep it simple, as the Cusp said above:

"The more unnecessary steps you create, the farther you are from your goal." Also, the more you imagine your goal is far away, the further away it will become; especially in dreams.

Yeah - fully agreed Sageous - and the below sentence leading to Cusp´s assertion is really funny!

Originally Posted by The Cusp

..
Sure, you could do that... But that would be like wanting a steak for dinner, but going about preparing it by first genetically engineering a cow. The more unnecessary steps you create, the farther you are from your goal.
..

respect-039.gif

Edit: Important for me to know, that you believe in the sincerity behind WalkingNomad´s ideas.
This makes a huge difference.

Concentration is all we need. With right amount of concentration in lucid dream everything becomes possible.
That is also problem. Such concentration is hard to achieve and to hold.

Question: If I pull someone to LD, do I need to hold concentration for two peoples? I did an WILD with my wife. When we went to sleep I held her in my arms. she was asleep fast, I relaxed and visualized an simple tunnel. Or wormhole? Which lead to LD. As I took flight through that tunnel into dream I held my wife fast in embrace. She was like an anchor. It felt like very heavy load. Like she cant go with me. But I managed to bring her to large meadow. She looked lost somehow... I needed to tell her to concentrate, because I saw that she looked to be incoherent... And she was scared of surrounding. There was a castle in a forest few hundreds of meter away. There was howling of wolf in air. From forest there was flowing ground fog. It looked romantic. Somehow mystically, somehow peacefully. My wife was in fear. The castle was turned into museum. Morning I asked my wife about this, but she didn't remember anything.

Hi. Some more thoughts....

Clarifying my earlier comment about fighting in dreams: My thought isn't that 'the spiritual world' is a safe and benevolent place. My thought is that fighting with one's dream body against perceived dream characters and demons isn't very effective. One sees this in the physical world also. Macho cultures where people are obsessed with martial arts are not actually very strong relative to more scientific cultures that don't see power in that way. And generally speaking, it doesn't work very well for individuals either. In the united states, for instance, for most people kung fu or a gun isn't of very much use against a person's most important enemies. Those methods are effective only against some of the weakest members of society, and even then changing one's own thinking and lifestyle usually has a bigger impact on ones own success and safety. Likewise with the dream world. Demons, such as I perceive them, can be extremely patient in human terms, since they're not as locked into the flow of time in quite the human way. If such a spirit has the power and inclination to harm you, it might use drugs or disease or accidents against all your descendents 1000 years from now rather than attack you in a dream. And they can be subtle, maybe if you know they're present at all its because their touch is already eating you. Fighting them seems pretty much useless to me, because they infect the part of you that fights them and use it against you. But if you are a more courageous and honest and fair person, maybe that helps. Maybe a spirit of wrath isn't that far off from a spirit of retributive justice, and such spirits, so to speak, respect that to a degree or are constrained by the even subtler considerations of power that are real to them. If you don't go out of your way to antagonize them, they're unlikely to trouble you. Of course, sometimes the only right course of action puts us at war with something stronger than us, and we may suffer bad consequences, but that's the way it is. And video-game-like lucid dream fighting still isn't going to help much in that case.

I'll try to say this another way. I am exposed in my dreams. Although I don't do a first-person-shooter kind of lucid dreaming very much, I'm usually aware of others in my dreams, and they affect me. And yet, I seem to have far less trouble with demons and stalkers and whatnot than other people I've known who think of the spirit world in a more Manichean or Darwinian way. It just doesn't look to me like their mindset is very effective, it seems to generate its own trouble. And my lack of dream trouble doesn't appear to me to be because I'm shrinking away from conflict where I need to stand up for something. If anything, it seems to me that the more paranoid kind of people, for lack of a better word, actually do a lot more shirking of responsibility because they're more wrapped up in their own self-generated dramas.

One other thing that I've said before that might be worth repeating: Never assume that when you are told something in a dream that you did not read in a book or hear from anybody else that the fact it came to you psychically means that its more true or trustworthy somehow. A dream guide or any other source of inspiration is usually half full of shit, however helpful it may be also. It follows your lead and the thoughts of other people, so if you take it as an authority because its a spirit, then a lot of people are helping each other chase themselves around in circles. This is maybe the biggest trap for psychically inclined people that there is. Maybe its a blessing in disguise if it preys on character weaknesses that would otherwise expose you to even more destructive pitfalls. But it catches everyone to varying degrees, everyone has to struggle to fight through it.

I think a lot of this is like surfing. You are less powerful than the ocean. You have to learn to navigate the waves, you can't overpower them. To a large extent this seems to me to be a matter of character development, that compassion and emotional and intellectual honesty are tremendously important. Wherever your weakness is, that's where you stumble, and force of will is only one element of what helps you regain your balance. Force of will has to act in harmony with other virtues, its destructive on its own. And individuals can't do it on their own either, we're part of a larger environment. We need our spirit guides or gods, so to speak, and we need each other, and they need us. If you look at what makes man so much more powerful than other animals, it has as at least as much to do with social organization as with the craftier part of our intelligence. If a lion were smarter than you, the lion would still lose in a fight, because the lion would rarely get a chance to fight on its own terms that way. Love is at least as important.

This reminds me of another poster from a couple of years ago who said than when you seek self knowledge, you have to do it with love, or else what you get back is all twisted around and misleading. I think that's right, and its something I need to learn better, so I thank them for putting it that way.

Gotta go, plane will board momentarily.

Absolutely agree with you Shadowofwind, seems like I've been drawn back to this thread for a reason and I can see why.

I'm one of the few that mentioned fighting demons on a nightly basis to 'step up my game' as it were, because at the time that's what I felt needed to be done and to be brutally honest (pardon the pun) it's not like I had much of a choice in the 'matter' (again, sorry). For one thing I am a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and I realise that's just an excuse, it's just how I have dealt with things all my life - something I'm currently learning to change in my life.

I think a large portion of this drama is due to the western mind-set we have been brought up with, that is to fear instead of love. Why do we watch horror movies? action movies? the news? it's all negative stuff that needs to be done away with in my humble opinion. To contrast, easterners have a much different mind-set... while people like me fear the worst they hope for the best. We also learn differently on an individual level some better by visual means and others through sound or experience; which could [partially] account for why people like myself and WakingNomad failed to realise the implications of what we were posting. It seems we all hold piece's of the puzzle but I think it's important to hold onto your piece like a chessboard, but at the same time realise we're all 'in it to win it' or more accurately put: we're all in it together.

Shadowofwind... I definitely like the sound of an infinite ocean of love and I will gladly surf those waves with all of you

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Hi. Some more thoughts....

Clarifying my earlier comment about fighting in dreams: My thought isn't that 'the spiritual world' is a safe and benevolent place. My thought is that fighting with one's dream body against perceived dream characters and demons isn't very effective. One sees this in the physical world also. Macho cultures where people are obsessed with martial arts are not actually very strong relative to more scientific cultures that don't see power in that way. And generally speaking, it doesn't work very well for individuals either. In the united states, for instance, for most people kung fu or a gun isn't of very much use against a person's most important enemies. Those methods are effective only against some of the weakest members of society, and even then changing one's own thinking and lifestyle usually has a bigger impact on ones own success and safety. Likewise with the dream world. Demons, such as I perceive them, can be extremely patient in human terms, since they're not as locked into the flow of time in quite the human way. If such a spirit has the power and inclination to harm you, it might use drugs or disease or accidents against all your descendents 1000 years from now rather than attack you in a dream. And they can be subtle, maybe if you know they're present at all its because their touch is already eating you. Fighting them seems pretty much useless to me, because they infect the part of you that fights them and use it against you. But if you are a more courageous and honest and fair person, maybe that helps. Maybe a spirit of wrath isn't that far off from a spirit of retributive justice, and such spirits, so to speak, respect that to a degree or are constrained by the even subtler considerations of power that are real to them. If you don't go out of your way to antagonize them, they're unlikely to trouble you. Of course, sometimes the only right course of action puts us at war with something stronger than us, and we may suffer bad consequences, but that's the way it is. And video-game-like lucid dream fighting still isn't going to help much in that case.

I'll try to say this another way. I am exposed in my dreams. Although I don't do a first-person-shooter kind of lucid dreaming very much, I'm usually aware of others in my dreams, and they affect me. And yet, I seem to have far less trouble with demons and stalkers and whatnot than other people I've known who think of the spirit world in a more Manichean or Darwinian way. It just doesn't look to me like their mindset is very effective, it seems to generate its own trouble. And my lack of dream trouble doesn't appear to me to be because I'm shrinking away from conflict where I need to stand up for something. If anything, it seems to me that the more paranoid kind of people, for lack of a better word, actually do a lot more shirking of responsibility because they're more wrapped up in their own self-generated dramas.

One other thing that I've said before that might be worth repeating: Never assume that when you are told something in a dream that you did not read in a book or hear from anybody else that the fact it came to you psychically means that its more true or trustworthy somehow. A dream guide or any other source of inspiration is usually half full of shit, however helpful it may be also. It follows your lead and the thoughts of other people, so if you take it as an authority because its a spirit, then a lot of people are helping each other chase themselves around in circles. This is maybe the biggest trap for psychically inclined people that there is. Maybe its a blessing in disguise if it preys on character weaknesses that would otherwise expose you to even more destructive pitfalls. But it catches everyone to varying degrees, everyone has to struggle to fight through it.

I think a lot of this is like surfing. You are less powerful than the ocean. You have to learn to navigate the waves, you can't overpower them. To a large extent this seems to me to be a matter of character development, that compassion and emotional and intellectual honesty are tremendously important. Wherever your weakness is, that's where you stumble, and force of will is only one element of what helps you regain your balance. Force of will has to act in harmony with other virtues, its destructive on its own. And individuals can't do it on their own either, we're part of a larger environment. We need our spirit guides or gods, so to speak, and we need each other, and they need us. If you look at what makes man so much more powerful than other animals, it has as at least as much to do with social organization as with the craftier part of our intelligence. If a lion were smarter than you, the lion would still lose in a fight, because the lion would rarely get a chance to fight on its own terms that way. Love is at least as important.

This reminds me of another poster from a couple of years ago who said than when you seek self knowledge, you have to do it with love, or else what you get back is all twisted around and misleading. I think that's right, and its something I need to learn better, so I thank them for putting it that way.

Gotta go, plane will board momentarily.

I agree with 99% of what you are saying here mate. I have NEVER gone out of my way to find and fight 'bad guys' in any shape or form, I view the dreaming as a spiritual realm and like to encounter any being with a positive outlook

However, Saturday night I woke from a WILD to find Freddy-freaking-Kruger in my bedroom randomly attacking me! My base reaction was what anybody would do in this situation with little time to think - defend myself (physically) and I pulled him apart and destroyed the parts since I knew that he would reform. He only scared me a little, really I just wanted to move onto more important aspects of my dream (where I then went to meet my daughter) but found the rest of my dream less controlled than normal, like I was weaker in some way.

Hi. Some more thoughts....

Clarifying my earlier comment about fighting in dreams: My thought isn't that 'the spiritual world' is a safe and benevolent place. My thought is that fighting with one's dream body against perceived dream characters and demons isn't very effective. One sees this in the physical world also. Macho cultures where people are obsessed with martial arts are not actually very strong relative to more scientific cultures that don't see power in that way. And generally speaking, it doesn't work very well for individuals either. In the united states, for instance, for most people kung fu or a gun isn't of very much use against a person's most important enemies. Those methods are effective only against some of the weakest members of society, and even then changing one's own thinking and lifestyle usually has a bigger impact on ones own success and safety. Likewise with the dream world. Demons, such as I perceive them, can be extremely patient in human terms, since they're not as locked into the flow of time in quite the human way. If such a spirit has the power and inclination to harm you, it might use drugs or disease or accidents against all your descendents 1000 years from now rather than attack you in a dream. And they can be subtle, maybe if you know they're present at all its because their touch is already eating you. Fighting them seems pretty much useless to me, because they infect the part of you that fights them and use it against you. But if you are a more courageous and honest and fair person, maybe that helps. Maybe a spirit of wrath isn't that far off from a spirit of retributive justice, and such spirits, so to speak, respect that to a degree or are constrained by the even subtler considerations of power that are real to them. If you don't go out of your way to antagonize them, they're unlikely to trouble you. Of course, sometimes the only right course of action puts us at war with something stronger than us, and we may suffer bad consequences, but that's the way it is. And video-game-like lucid dream fighting still isn't going to help much in that case.

I'll try to say this another way. I am exposed in my dreams. Although I don't do a first-person-shooter kind of lucid dreaming very much, I'm usually aware of others in my dreams, and they affect me. And yet, I seem to have far less trouble with demons and stalkers and whatnot than other people I've known who think of the spirit world in a more Manichean or Darwinian way. It just doesn't look to me like their mindset is very effective, it seems to generate its own trouble. And my lack of dream trouble doesn't appear to me to be because I'm shrinking away from conflict where I need to stand up for something. If anything, it seems to me that the more paranoid kind of people, for lack of a better word, actually do a lot more shirking of responsibility because they're more wrapped up in their own self-generated dramas.

One other thing that I've said before that might be worth repeating: Never assume that when you are told something in a dream that you did not read in a book or hear from anybody else that the fact it came to you psychically means that its more true or trustworthy somehow. A dream guide or any other source of inspiration is usually half full of shit, however helpful it may be also. It follows your lead and the thoughts of other people, so if you take it as an authority because its a spirit, then a lot of people are helping each other chase themselves around in circles. This is maybe the biggest trap for psychically inclined people that there is. Maybe its a blessing in disguise if it preys on character weaknesses that would otherwise expose you to even more destructive pitfalls. But it catches everyone to varying degrees, everyone has to struggle to fight through it.

I think a lot of this is like surfing. You are less powerful than the ocean. You have to learn to navigate the waves, you can't overpower them. To a large extent this seems to me to be a matter of character development, that compassion and emotional and intellectual honesty are tremendously important. Wherever your weakness is, that's where you stumble, and force of will is only one element of what helps you regain your balance. Force of will has to act in harmony with other virtues, its destructive on its own. And individuals can't do it on their own either, we're part of a larger environment. We need our spirit guides or gods, so to speak, and we need each other, and they need us. If you look at what makes man so much more powerful than other animals, it has as at least as much to do with social organization as with the craftier part of our intelligence. If a lion were smarter than you, the lion would still lose in a fight, because the lion would rarely get a chance to fight on its own terms that way. Love is at least as important.

This reminds me of another poster from a couple of years ago who said than when you seek self knowledge, you have to do it with love, or else what you get back is all twisted around and misleading. I think that's right, and its something I need to learn better, so I thank them for putting it that way.

Gotta go, plane will board momentarily.

Well , it is pretty fun to fight like you're in a videogame because you can actually feel the game , though you might be right that we cannot fight off the demons but we can at least repel them? We can repel them using our energy as a sort of barrier that destroys all evil that enters in it. Well , I can pretty much relate this to magicka concept and reiki concept , we can channel our energy to form a barrier on us or on anyone else , as we can do that in real life (considering spiritual stuff to be true) then we can easily do it in our dreams as we just need to send a shock wave , creating a barrier around us. I say that because I believe that if shared dreaming is real and the other planes do exist then , so do the real world magic arts . I found the explanation which a person gave me to be pretty logical for reiki and magicka. What do you think? I believe that If there is an astral plane or dream plane then a lot of things taught by many religions and books are also true. What do you think?

Originally Posted by tP97

Well , it is pretty fun to fight like you're in a videogame because you can actually feel the game , though you might be right that we cannot fight off the demons but we can at least repel them? We can repel them using our energy as a sort of barrier that destroys all evil that enters in it. Well , I can pretty much relate this to magicka concept and reiki concept , we can channel our energy to form a barrier on us or on anyone else , as we can do that in real life (considering spiritual stuff to be true) then we can easily do it in our dreams as we just need to send a shock wave , creating a barrier around us. I say that because I believe that if shared dreaming is real and the other planes do exist then , so do the real world magic arts . I found the explanation which a person gave me to be pretty logical for reiki and magicka. What do you think? I believe that If there is an astral plane or dream plane then a lot of things taught by many religions and books are also true. What do you think?

I think that its not possible to "destroy all evil that enters in" your energy while simultaneously enjoying the feel of violence. The demon isn't outside of you, it is in you also.

I think its worth keeping in mind that the sounds and visual images in a dream are only one fairly superficial part of what's going on.

I think that its not possible to get away with anything. You can push some things away for a while, but every bit of who you are comes back to you eventually.

I think that mystical stuff is real, but most of what people say or write about it is still wrong. These subjects are not understood well. People who are temperate in their beliefs, and only claim what they know, have trouble scraping together enough compelling claims for a successful book or cult.

Originally Posted by floatinghead

I agree with 99% of what you are saying here mate. I have NEVER gone out of my way to find and fight 'bad guys' in any shape or form, I view the dreaming as a spiritual realm and like to encounter any being with a positive outlook

However, Saturday night I woke from a WILD to find Freddy-freaking-Kruger in my bedroom randomly attacking me!

I agree that stuff like this inevitably happens to everyone in one way or another, either with violence or with sex. My point was mainly that its connected to who we are, that its not external and objective. This might seem obvious and indisputable, but in the past there seems to have been less consensus about this on this site than there is now.

I've never watched a horror movie or played violent video games, so I don't dream about that sort of thing. But some of that stuff bleeds over into my awareness from other people, and I've got my own issues that connect with it. I think its not healthy to get too far away from ourselves emotionally, so there's something to be said for expressing that stuff. Its unavoidable. But at the same time, doing more of it will never be the key to overcoming it. That would be kind of like drinking for sobriety or fucking for chastity.

Originally Posted by Eonnn

Absolutely agree with you Shadowofwind, seems like I've been drawn back to this thread for a reason and I can see why.

I'm one of the few that mentioned fighting demons on a nightly basis to 'step up my game' as it were, because at the time that's what I felt needed to be done and to be brutally honest (pardon the pun) it's not like I had much of a choice in the 'matter' (again, sorry). For one thing I am a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and I realise that's just an excuse, it's just how I have dealt with things all my life - something I'm currently learning to change in my life.

Shadowofwind... I definitely like the sound of an infinite ocean of love and I will gladly surf those waves with all of you

Thanks for sharing, and I wish you the best with what you've been dealing with. I'm sure your progress helps all of us a little bit.

Although I don't have bad dreams, I have a type of bad karma, for lack of a better word. I think its pretty much the same thing in a different form. So although I make some observations and express some opinions about what I see, I really don't have an answer.

A difficulty with the 'ocean of love' of course is that we're prone to turn it into something sick and manipulative, such as one sees with pretty much any charismatic guru. So we all feel isolated, yet simultaneously push people away because we're trying to protect our own integrity of identity. I don't know if I'd be comfortable sharing dreams with my kids for instance, they need their own space to develop in. I don't mean that as a criticism of floatinghead, he could be in a healthy place with it. I'm just saying that for everyone there's some degree of power and intimacy where things start to go rotten on them. I think that in our current condition, we can probably only handle a moderate amount of dream-sharing type stuff before it becomes detrimental. But of course we've got to deal with whatever it is that we experience in life, we can't just turn it off either.

Of the people I've known who have the strongest 'psychic' experiences, at least half have mental health issues. So the easy, skeptical response would be that its just all delusional. But its not delusional. Or that its all evil spirits. But I don't think that's quite right either. What's unhealthy is unhealthy, but the best part of ourselves is mixed up with it also, so we just have to work with it, we can't turn away from it. This is sort of my perspective on 'demons' too, I actually don't think its possible for us to redeem ourselves without finding more constructive uses for the predatory parts of ourselves. For instance, if you could just cut out the aggressive part of yourself, you wouldn't have courage either. And I don't think a person could completely shut down the cruel part of themselves without diminishing their empathy also, and their strength to do what's right even when its difficult.

Best wishes.

My LD and AP are nearly all harmonic. Also normal dreams... Even if I can look on good horror film. Or play games such as Fallout3 Well I couldn't play game such as Manhunt, I have repulsive feelings to it. The key is not to have no thoughts about bad things, even I have often my bad days... the key is to be unattached to them. To be as unattached observer of things as possible and to have as little of volition(as to wanting something), and feel as much freedom as possible. Freedom we have. The light is in US. We see darkness only if we can't see light. When we are blinding ourselves. We have only to see it. Even slave may feel free if he is strong in his mind. We can be slave of ourselves, of our bad habits.

We all have dark side. It is not there not to battle it. It is there to observe it, to understand it and to live with it. To try to fill it up with our inner light.

He who likes to battle he would receive battle. And that is not leading to inner peace. To knowledge. To growth.

wow - that is allot to ingest, allot of concrete statements though. I am not sure if I entirely agree with you in regards to Demon's/negative forces being solely something which originates from within the individual dreamer; unless you are also suggesting that demon's that appear outside of ourselves are just manifestations originating from other PEOPLE rather than entities in their own right. I guess this would make some sense

You never watch horror movies or play violent video games?? WOW- lol! Your missing out I think, as you pointed out Demons are part of us and so perhaps by avoiding everything negative and violent is like trying to not accept part of ourselves? While human we cannot simply take that part out of us - but I admire the line of thinking, and perhaps you are right in doing it, but we were put in these human bodies for a reason, whether to accept our animal instincts or fight against it I do not know though. I would suggest though that ignoring/avoiding and fighting head on (demons) amounts to the same thing - it still comes back and is only dispelled for a short time. You could also view 'demons' within a different context, if you think of demons encompassing everything which is entropic - then perhaps we are just putting a 'face' to disorder? or vice versa, then they CAN exist as outside entities.

It is interesting that you mention mental health issues with psychic experiences- it does indeed sadly seem to be the case. It is almost as if once you start to tune in to other possibilities, to let your grip off this mutually agreed physical universe then you are starting to see what lies 'behind the curtain' but in doing so start to float away from this reality.

Any type of real Physic experiences are VERY confusing, unless you are naturally talented from birth it seems that nothing can be trusted. It reminds me of how (in x-men) anyone trying to use the cerebro who is not the professor is overloaded with information. There is just too much information out there to understand and comprehend without somekind of guide to help you along the way. It has been my experience, when going into someone else's dream space, that even though I have never been there before I can spot the odd thing around which belongs to me - meaning we are ALWAYS projecting our own thoughts wherever we go. So trying to figure out a specific outcome while subtly (not knowingly) influencing it by your preference to the outcome will give you a false result (an imagined one not an actual one) which seems to be the route of the problem for everybody.

On saturday I had another shared dream planned with my daughter, but first I met with my dream guide, he looked different again and I asked him why this was - he started to compare himself, his experience to Jesus Christ and then all of a sudden was in a picture frame, as a pirate (black hair and beard read pirate hat and clothes) telling me he was going to hunt me down to the edges of the universe. I walked away from him and found my daughter holding my hand which she then took me to our tree house, and then showing me all of the new things she did to it.

The next day I was telling my daughter about this, about our meeting, she simply made some adjustments to the treehouse, and when she expected me to come I arrived and then she showed me around. I then told her about my dream guide acting weird (since she knows him pretty well because she gave him to me from an egg) she then went onto to tell me about a book at school she read the previous year - about a pirate in a painting who would jump out of the frame and chase after the kids - when I asked her what the pirate looked like she said he had BLACK hair and a RED coat and hat. So this is either a weirdly specific coincidence or there was some 'bleed through' from her subconscious into my dream. I have no idea - but if the later is true then it would mean that there would be so many different parts of a person which you could potentially connect to accidentally, and possibly do while we dream

floatinghead what will happen if you ignore threat of some entity, what is the worst, what could happen?
In my experience following:
1.if you are too submerged into dream reality you will die. Not really mind you... Only in dream.
2. If you are not so attached then you feel attack, but there is little harm coming to your dream body.
3. You can be so unattached, that attack on you will meet either totally inviolable body, hard as hardest diamond(You will feel little to nothing). Or all attack will go straight through you(as through ghost and again you feel little, to nothing)

Most often I experience third one. When there are some violent entities. But most often there are no such entities. And when there are such entities, then there is often no attack but they run away. But I want only to communicate! I even tried to summon them as I supposed they would like to come... to do harm(to me). So I would have bigger possibility to find someone coherent(and not visibly demented- like sleeping)... I have no luck Astral is even worse. It looks like nearly everybody coherent fears me, even if I'm not violent. I feel quite lonely sometimes in astral...

Originally Posted by Psionik

floatinghead what will happen if you ignore threat of some entity, what is the worst, what could happen?
In my experience following:
1.if you are too submerged into dream reality you will die. Not really mind you... Only in dream.
2. If you are not so attached then you feel attack, but there is little harm coming to your dream body.
3. You can be so unattached, that attack on you will meet either totally inviolable body, hard as hardest diamond(You will feel little to nothing). Or all attack will go straight through you(as through ghost and again you feel little, to nothing)

Most often I experience third one. When there are some violent entities. But most often there are no such entities. And when there are such entities, then there is often no attack but they run away. But I want only to communicate! I even tried to summon them as I supposed they would like to come... to do harm(to me). So I would have bigger possibility to find someone coherent(and not visibly demented- like sleeping)... I have no luck Astral is even worse. It looks like nearly everybody coherent fears me, even if I'm not violent. I feel quite lonely sometimes in astral...

This is a VERY good question, I cannot pretend to know the answer, but I can give a guess based on accounts of others. First of all, I think it would be impossible to die from an 'attack' (like physical death) But if you ignore it it may do you harm.

Consider this: Raven reported going to see her friend and trying to 'heal' her within the dreaming. She would travel to her bedside and do a bit of magic to sooth the body. When she got there she reported seeing a dark entity taking energy away from her friend (while the friend lay down 'asleep') - a demon if you will.

The question here is: was this demon causing her to become ill, or was the illness being perceived as a demon? As I stated before I am very much a believer in the phrase 'as above so below' so I believe that (if this actually happened) both scenarios are true and exist in parallel, are the same thing.

So to sum up my babbling, I actually think (basing my assumption on scenarios given like the one above) that doing nothing (which would be either not defending yourself from the demon/disease which would also mean not going to see a doctor) would indeed be harmful. I think Demons are there for a reason and they should not be ignored as they will keep on coming back stronger.

But then... It depends on the demon I suppose. For example, if you look at practices such as CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) it would encourage you to not focus on negative thoughts or ideas - and perhaps that is where demons are born? So perhaps if they are small and weak then just ignoring the demons may be the best course of action - and then if THAT fails you need to consider taking another form of action?

If you want to seek out some 'demons' go down to the basement, get scared, keep walking down until you find them

I did this once and it was not pretty...

If you want to find other people in the astral - let yourself go; fly with the intent you will search for someone and you will find someone

Also feel free to drop in in my tree house any time

Demons shouldn't be only bad... I think, they are mirroring our thoughts... maybe. Maybe there are good ones. Maybe there are bad angels, not only good. But I'm telling now my suppositions, I don't know from my experience.

I tried a few times to heal my body out of astral. Strange experience... I actually felt astral hands inside real body as some energy. Not quite material, but not immaterial. I'm not sure whether it helped too. I tried also to unlock paranormal abilities this way (without any results).

I tried to shield friend's "real" body from dark cloud I saw in astral... once when I projected to her room. Successfully, because as I said, nearly everything fears me for some reason. I could well understand that maybe malevolent entities are logically afraid of me, as I would do anything to protect anybody else... I feel in astral great energy inside my astral body.
I remember as it was once unleashed when I was bitten to neck by energy deficient girl that was turned by energetic vampires. That bite make way for my energy out of astral body. It was blinding. That girl was immediately full of energy and turned to glowing being... I was glowing too and I didn't feel any lowering of my energy from that. Concentration is good for charging energy. This attack was originated from vampires who feared to attack me directly, after I destroyed their base and every one vampire in it, and liberated normally dreaming people. I mean destroyed as real thing. I literally ripped them to pieces by hands. They are out of equation for good. I felt it clearly. And on my travels, I couldn't find them again. Well, at least I didn't find any other vampires in my neighborhood. Then, I have feeling something wrong is happening some 5 km from my house. There is some dark barrier forming. I will see ) I tend to think, that things I find in astral are probably real... In LD not so much. I normally allow attack on myself, as it is uninteresting for me. It can't do any harm to me. But I can't stand to see harm done to others.

Negative entities can't become stronger from trying to fight me. I don't invest my energy to fight them needlessly... And I'm staying emotionally in balance. I don't invest energy to fear, I don't invest energy to hate. I think, that are two things they could use against me. And feed of me.

Sorry I'm talking more about astral projection. I have much greater experience from it, than from LD. But again, I think, dream is happening in astral, only our imagination shrouds our view on more real things.

Do you think I'm not trying to meet someone? Of course I'm trying.

I maintain my surrounding free of negative pests It is not necessary to do it consciously... It seems like I'm making surrounding less hospitable for them.

I would like to meet you thank you. I don't know wheter I would be succesfull. I try to do joined astral travel with my brother. We had maybe 1 meeting experienced. That is not looking very good.

Oh I see! Sorry I mis-understood!! Sometimes when people talk about the Astral they mean lucid dreaming. And often times the two overlap so it is difficult to see a clear divide. When I talk about OBE's I am talking about what you refer to Astral projection. And I agree, I have not encountered much in the way of anything, people occasionally - but usually my OBE's (astral projections) merge into a lucid dream after a few minutes so it is difficult to tell if they are people in the astral or not. Dreaming is the best place to meet anything - but then DREAMING is confusing and is very difficult to tell the difference between a real person and a thought form (dream character). I don't know if you can access my 'tree' in the astral, I assumed it existed only in the dreaming.

But... the tree does exist in real life as well, so maybe part of it bleeds through into the astral? I don't know

When you have astral projections how do you see your surroundings? Do they appear exactly the same? Slightly different? Do you sometimes see houses or objects that are in the Astral and not in real life?

Yes. OBE means out of body experience... And as such, it is possible to do it into astral, mental, budhic... and others dimensions. Lucid dreaming, while it feels more concrete than normal dream, and also has better consistency... and is much less confusing... is certainly and clearly something else than astral dimension. I know it by feeling... by kind of thought process allowed to exist in it... and also that dimensions I described have their different feelings, conditions, thought process allowed... It is complex feeling. Hard to describe. Also unnecessary, he who travels, he knows

If you allow attachment, imagination, thought process to alter your perception, it could either lead to LD or to waking. My lucid dreams have got more taste of astral dimension as time and my exercises went by. But they are LD, because I let imagination free. Then again, I'm unattached explorer (or as much unattached as I can be) even in LD. I use minimum of needed imagination for things to do in LD.

I'm trying now to do LD also(mainly to try to connect with dreaming people), and I'm not very experienced in it. It needs to use imagination to do wild and I exercised to do travels, in whose I suppress imagination as much as possible. It become reflex, so I have difficulties to hold flying through imagined tunnel for example, or to imagine detailed picture. I can't do DILD, the reality check doesn't function by me for some reason. Even if there are fantastic things, for me in dream, they are real. Even if I question reality in dream I would conclude that dream is real. So WILD is for me the only way.

Real things have their counterpart in astral and some also in mental dimension. I don't know whether it is real astral thing as such. But: Astral is easily adopting imagination, and I thing even when we are in this dimension. So, things which took thought process to build start to form in astral sooner than in real world. And also last there for longer than they exist in real world. Real things appear in astral little surreal As our perception of things is subjective the formed thing will be little different. Also, the more people see that thing, the more stable and real is looks like in astral. At least it seems to me so. I see things long before they exists. I saw my house(I alone projected it) before it was build. Some things looked different, some the same as I build it in real world. Sometimes a thought comes through my mind, that I have to do (and build) all things I see existing in astral so I wouldn't create some paradox. Then there is thing with parallel dimensions... maybe I see in astral things from them.

Also what I wrote about battle in astral, I had only two such big battles in more than thousand travels. And without any problems. There were some... I would say Intimidations... Maybe. Something like skirmish without doing much of anything else... So maybe I can really clean my surrounding of harmful entities... Or maybe, as you maybe know, astral dimensions have something like levels. Lowers feels more dark, higher more idyllic... The feelings of them tells me, that they are all astral. The harmful entities could reside mainly in lower ones.