Where is the Dream state?

[floatinghead]

Hi Everybody, I wanted to start a thread on where you all think the dream state exists, based on your experience while lucid. I especially am interested in the opinion of those of you who have successfully shared dreams! Does the dream state exist solely in one's mind? When sharing a dream does there exist a telepathic link between two minds so that the dream state then exists in two minds? or does the dream sharing happen on a completely separate plane? Let me know what you think - and why!!

[saltyseedog]

I think thought exist on differnt plane of existence

[NrElAx]

Well I think its crazy that you can go to a different world in your mind through lucid dreaming. If it even in your mind.

[saltyseedog]

Ya like when your thinking in waking life your only partially there. when your dreaming your are like completely there.

[floatinghead]

That's an interesting thought, but then when we sleep, unless we are lucid we are not truly awake, and even then we still forget...

[juroara]

One time in a lucid dream I was imagining something. Just like waking life, I perceived my imagination to be in the back of my mind. As in literally, right now imagine something, Anything. That's what I did in my dream! Yet at the same time science tells us the dream takes place in the mind. So I looked about me thought "this is crazy!". Here I am in a dream, a place of mind. I'm experiencing this dream AROUND me as an environment separate from me. Yet at the same time, I can imagine something and experience it in my mind. How? When both the dream and my imagination take place in the mind? Why is one experienced some place just behind my consciousness, and the other a world around me? I don't think dreams take place in MY mind. Because my mind, no matter where I am, is this thing I perceive to be 'behind' my consciousness. Even when dreaming, your mind is still behind your consciousness. I'm sure the dream takes place in the mind, I'm just not convinced its the same mind I use when I'm awake.

[Baron Samedi]

The dream plane.

[floatinghead]

But where is the dream plane - in our minds? on another plane of existence? in another dimension? Is shared dreaming just a visual representation of a physic connection between two (or more) minds, in which the participant's subconscious are met half way and so all other entities and places met within the shared dreaming are part of either participant's subconscious? Or is it something more? a more tangible thing - like dark matter for example? (which makes up around 80- 90% of the matter in the universe)

[Philosopher8659]

It is on the docet to become the Fifty First State, and I think it resides somewhere in the middle of the Mississippi River. Good thing you never asked where the consciouse plane was, we would either be flying in autobots, or you would be walking around in circles in the hallway.

[saltyseedog]

All thought is energy at a higher vibration. Just how theres energies we can't see like infra red and radio. we can see this energy with our third eye. I've been told that the pineal gland is the third eye in our brain and it is activated be a chemical called DMT. When we dream DMT is released. Also in small amounts in waking life when we think or daydream. Spirit-intention-physical Intention=mind/thoughts This is how the law of attraction works. What you think manifests in your physical reality.

[floatinghead]

cool - cheers saltyseedog, But using this theory, does that mean that the reality of the dream is constructed within the mind or apart from it? - or is it a reality that is created through mass consciousness?

[Baron Samedi]

I think the dream plane and/or dark energy could literally be the dream plane. I believe in the Dream Plane Theory which is the dream plane is another plane of existence, greater than a meeting of minds.

[floatinghead]

I agree, I think I'm more inclined to believe that the dream plane is something outside of our minds (based on what I have read and experienced) and I like the dark energy theory - it is a mass of energy that takes 71.3% of the universe. Other than that nothing else is known about it (except that it is effected by gravity in some form and that it is responsible for the expansion of the universe) Which I find kinda funny - because scientific and skeptical minds will scoff at the idea of an astral plane (something which is basically invisible to our current equipment to measure) but whole heartedly believe in an invisible mass of energy floating around in the universe...

[saltyseedog]

cool - cheers saltyseedog, But using this theory, does that mean that the reality of the dream is constructed within the mind or apart from it? - or is it a reality that is created through mass consciousness? Well I'm not sure this is an explanation I've come up with from my own experience. Well I think dcs and the dream enviorment are a creation of your own mind, but nomad said he gave some of his dcs sentience so who knows? Also I don't think thought is personal it effects everything and everyone. I don't know all these things completely as truth it is just my attempt at understanding this experience I guess. But it does make sense to me. The law of attraction has proven its self many times in my life though.

[floatinghead]

This makes sense also - thanks for your insights Based on what I've read, heard and experienced it seems that we are 'cocooned' within our own subconscious each night as we dream (a comment in Raven's journal made me think of this), and it is not until we become lucid and have the strong urge and desire to seek outside of our dream that we realize that there exists many other entities and places. But the key, I think, is that we must believe in order to get there. If we believe that everything surrounding us within the dream state is our own subconscious then it probably is (and perhaps this strong skeptical belief can even help keep out other real outside entities from our dreams ) Could you explain a little more about the law of attraction?

[DpsBob]

Strange thought, that the state of dreaming could be a place that exists outside of our brains. Seeings how it is almost never persistent, I imagine it would have to be in its natural state a flurry of energy, solidifying into scenes and characters when entered by a sentient mind. What the fuck am I talking about?

[saltyseedog]

law of attraction- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdtqL...eature=channel

[Skicanoe]

I don't know that there is one answer or place. I think that many of my lucid or semi-lucid dreams gotta be astral or at least my mind plus an astral imprint. Maybe my more garden variety dreams are all in my head, so to speak. And then there are dreams I have that aren't very interactive at all, and I'm not even in them -just like watching a movie. I really don't know what to think of the movie type dreams. Am I being shown the movie by some spirit guide or what? I also don't think there is any part of the physical realm that is also not within the astral realm.

[Tranquil Toad]

Well thank god for this forum subsection, because I don't really feel like defending what I am about to say. Sorry in advance for long post. Reality is mind, is consciousness. There is nothing truly "objective" anywhere in existence. There is no physical "out there" that exists separate from consciousness. A lot of confusion comes from the way we view this world. The physical world around seems persistent and real, and very much objective. You see a friend, and he has his own physical presence seemingly apart from you. However, everything you see and encounter is actually inside you. I will use an analogy to explain. Many of you have played online video games, especially the ones known as MMOs. In these games you have a character who can interact with other characters in a virtual environment. And though this environment appears objective, you realize that everything there is inside your computer, even though the other characters are being controlled by real people. "Information" from the internet gets filtered through your PC and onto your monitor, and though 2 people have different PCs on opposite ends of the world, they have agreed to project that information onto their monitors in a way that allows them both to interact and have a similar experience in the game world. Physical reality works in a similar way. Each and every person has their own version of reality entirely inside their consciousness. What you see when you look at your friend is not literally that other person, it is a holographic representation constructed by your mind. This reality is a mass consensual hallucination, or mass shared dream if you like. Now its not like we are all hooked up to a computer somewhere matrix style, as there is only consciousness. Nothing objective, nothing outside of it. Sorry for the long rant on reality, but I felt I needed to lay it as a little groundwork so I can tie it back to dreams (If you understood it all; sorry very hard to put into words.) You can view this reality as a certain frequency like a radio station. Your consciousness exists on many different levels, it just happens to be tuned into this one right now. And everyone you meet has tuned theirs to the same frequency so we can all interact and play this game. When you dream you are not "inside your mind" any more than you are right now. Going back to the analogy of the online game, it would be as if you logged off and went back to windows or something. Now because the character in that game thinks there is an objective world around him, the only way he can make sense of logging out and going back to windows would be to say "it was in my mind" or "it was a hallucination." In the same way that when you have a dream you think of it as "inside your mind" because you have been trained to think that reality is objective and "out there;" therefore any experience as personal as a dream must be inside the brain. It is just another level of consciousness that isn't bound by as much rules and restraints as this level has been set up to include. It is inside you just as much as this reality is, because you are simply consciousness. You are not in your body, your body is inside you. You are the dreamer of this reality, so you could say you dreamed up the idea of a body. Now the reason the dream level seems so similar to physical reality in many senses (you may visit places you know, talk with people from your life, explore physical-like worlds, etc) is that, using the radio analogy, it is only a small turn of the dial away from physical existence. You have moved your mind away from this dream and over to a dream only a few frequency levels away. And like a radio, all those stations occupy the same space. All of our consciousnesses occupy the same space. Dreams, imagination, phsyical reality, other dimensions, the stars you see far away in space are all here because all is mind and mind can have no real location. If you walk for miles through a forest in your dream where have you moved?

[saltyseedog]

I completely agree with you tranquil toad. It makes sooo much freakin sense!!!!! This is exactly what I have been pondering for like the past year. The physical experience does effect our dream or thought experience, but I also believe our thoughts effect the physical experience.

[Philosopher8659]

Reality is mind, is consciousness. There is nothing truly "objective" anywhere in existence. There is no physical "out there" that exists separate from consciousness. Well that is just great. Best piece of reasoning to prove that the mind of man is incurably masochistic. Beat me, please! Universal mental masterbation. No wonder I am single. Don't mind me, ya'll just talking to yourself. That is a Greek Tragedy indeed.

[Singularity125]

long post. Interesting stuff. Sounds a bit like the theory from "My Big TOE" and also the scientific theory of the universe as a sort of virtual reality. (Really! It was in "What the Bleep do we know!?" Look it up on Youtube when you can, it's a fascinating watch.) I'm still not sure what to believe, myself. All I've decided on for sure is that despite traditional scientific view, consciousness definitely has some reality beyond the purely subjective.

[Tranquil Toad]

Interesting stuff. Sounds a bit like the theory from "My Big TOE" and also the scientific theory of the universe as a sort of virtual reality. (Really! It was in "What the Bleep do we know!?" Look it up on Youtube when you can, it's a fascinating watch.) I'm still not sure what to believe, myself. All I've decided on for sure is that despite traditional scientific view, consciousness definitely has some reality beyond the purely subjective. Seen the movie. I don't think quantum physics offers undeniable proof that reality is consciousness yet, but it is certainly on the right track. I believe sometime not too far down the road in the future science will begin to understand this in its own way. However, that traditional scientific view is fast eroding. They have measured particles communicating instantly hundreds of miles away from each other, surpassing the speed of light barrier. According to what most people believe that should be impossible. @Philosopher Not sure where masochism fits into my idea. Universal mental masturbation? Not sure what you mean by that again. Perhaps you thought I was implying something akin to solipsism, or that reality is only human consciousness - which I was not.

[Philosopher8659]

@Philosopher Not sure where masochism fits into my idea. Universal mental masturbation? Not sure what you mean by that again. Perhaps you thought I was implying something akin to solipsism, or that reality is only human consciousness - which I was not. Don't worry, I know you could not get it. Other do, I trust. If A = A, then relation to self is inadmissible. Such thoughts as you posed, as complex they are, always rests on the most basic of mistakes in reasoning. You cannot create any complexity when the very simple has not been mastered. Like a child, facinated with very large numbers, while having no notion of what 1 is. Soon I will post how to multiply and divide a line by a line--never been done before, this means that dispite all the talk in geometry itself has been from people, like Einstein, who could not even do the four basic moves in arithmetic with it. Now, I ask, how is it, that people sought the delian solution, or angle division, when they could not do the simple math? Like you, they believed they knew what they did not.

[BlueBlue]

I'm not even sure where I exist. But one thing's for sure: I think therefore I am! But that's the problem, so many people nowadays don't think at all, so is Descartes valid?