Thread: Shared Dreaming Debate

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

thanks everyone for contributing to this interesting debate/discussion.

And thank you, Nomad, for firing up the kiln in the first place!

I have had a few LDs in the last few days that represent the type of dreams I have that make me think dream sharing is real. I figure I will post the links to my DJ so any one who cares can peak at them. They do not represent dream sharing with other dreamers, however. They involve interaction with entities in a dream realm. Maybe some one will find it interesting.

Dream Guide Lectures on Subject I Can not Understand! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

07/31/12 DG teachs how to pass certain energy barriers. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


08/01/12 DG teach on creating energy barriers. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

08/01/12 Astral City, a Pleasant Walk with the Two Daughters. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Originally Posted by sivason

I have had a few LDs in the last few days that represent the type of dreams I have that make me think dream sharing is real. I figure I will post the links to my DJ so any one who cares can peak at them. They do not represent dream sharing with other dreamers, however. They involve interaction with entities in a dream realm. Maybe some one will find it interesting.

I've just read all four of them, and they are interesting.

However, as you said, they do not represent dream sharing with other dreamers.

Gills, your blind determination is inspiring

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Gills, your blind determination is inspiring

Blind? It would be stupid to believe in something (in this case, shared dreaming) just because someone says it's true.

Wouldn't it?

Is this the point where we re-raise the subject of religion, or blind faith, as it were? You know: where umbrage is taken by all who choose to simply believe?

I can't remember. Sometimes the view from my carousel horse is confusing, what with the number of times it's gone round and round and round...

I was simply pointing out that there is nothing "blind" in my determination. I simply refuse to "blindly" accept extraordinary claims.

It is your blindness to the truth. Not that shared dreaming is real, but that people will believe themselves over another person any day of the week. You keep beating this horse as if you have the power to control the perceptions of humanity. Its like someone flaying at a pinata that doesnt exist.

Aw, now what was that famous L.A. riot quote? "Can't we all just get along."

I respect Gills' right to question. All of my experiences could be made up, or simply something I have miss understood, and I understand why anyone would think that. I know many members respect and trust me, but my word is just the word of a disembodied personality on the internet. God bless everyone, and their right to question. To Gills' credit he did not say he thought it sounded made up, he just restated that this type of dream is not really the same as a confirable "shared dream" and I think we all see it is not. What it is is interesting, and maybe something to make people question and wonder just what the heck Sivason's experience may actually be.



Oh, here is another weird dream I just had. http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/siva...memeber-36769/ I can't decide what to make out of it, but it was so odd I journaled it and maay as well let you all take a look.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Is this the point where we re-raise the subject of religion, or blind faith, as it were? You know: where umbrage is taken by all who choose to simply believe?

I can't remember. Sometimes the view from my carousel horse is confusing, what with the number of times it's gone round and round and round...

I love it! Well done, my friend, well done.

At least no one has declared that it's merely apophenia, now that....would be hilarious.

*runs*

Originally Posted by Gills

Blind? It would be stupid to believe in something (in this case, shared dreaming) just because someone says it's true.

Wouldn't it?

Would you believe the concept if you experienced it for yourself?

I know that proof of the experience would prove difficult but if it did present itself to you...would you believe the experience?


I tend to be skeptical and it's not a bad thing to have a cautious view of a lot of unexplained things. Clearly people have had a lot of weird ideas about what was true over the last several thousand years.

I find that it's easier for me to accept the concept of shared dreaming than it is for me to accept some all-powerful deity worrying about every one of my actions while he sits quietly on a cloud allowing all the other bad shit in the world.

And yet sometimes I wonder...where did all this 'Universe' come from?

And maybe...just maybe...there's more to this Universe than meets the eye.

Blindly accepting the concept would be irresponsible. Evidence of all kinds of strange ocurrences appears all the time. What matters is you're openness to new ideas and finding out if the concept, no matter how far-fetched, could be real.

And on that note it's time for a midnight snack.

Originally Posted by Gills

Blind? It would be stupid to believe in something (in this case, shared dreaming) just because someone says it's true.

Wouldn't it?

Funny story. I got in trouble during 7th grade science, because i questioned why I should believe that the Earth went around the sun, when to my point of view, it appears the other way. Boy, the teacher got so mad!!! I was not trying to cause trouble, but thought (insert your quote here). So I found out how the observations worked and paid attention, until I had seen the evidence. The evidence was there and I moved on. However, by the point they were telling me (Sophmore college year) the way to create a stable double bond between carbons with both hydrogens lined up, was to place the carbon chain on a sheet of platinum and pour acid over it,,, well,,, I decided at that point to just go ahead and believe it, what the heck, why not.
I am just being funny, though the story is true. This subject is not the same, because no scientific evidence is available. Maybe I just shared it because I am half asleep. If even one member grins, then it was worth it.

Originally Posted by sivason

This subject is not the same, because no scientific evidence is available.

First you say:

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

It is your blindness to the truth.

And then:

Not that shared dreaming is real...

What is the truth then?

Or are you simply being incoherent?

Originally Posted by melanieb

Would you believe the concept if you experienced it for yourself?

Yes I would, and I said that a million times. But I wouldn't want to shove my experience down someone's throat and present shared dreaming as a fact.

I also wouldn't be mad for someone not believing me.

I know that proof of the experience would prove difficult but if it did present itself to you...would you believe the experience?

It wouldn't prove difficult at all. The person I shared the dream with would be able to recall several dream events which I recall also.

Of course I would believe the experience, because it is a mutual experience.

That's why it is easily verifiable (if it indeed occurred).

I tend to be skeptical and it's not a bad thing to have a cautious view of a lot of unexplained things. Clearly people have had a lot of weird ideas about what was true over the last several thousand years.

Very true.

I find that it's easier for me to accept the concept of shared dreaming than it is for me to accept some all-powerful deity worrying about every one of my actions while he sits quietly on a cloud allowing all the other bad shit in the world.

And yet sometimes I wonder...where did all this 'Universe' come from?

And maybe...just maybe...there's more to this Universe than meets the eye.

Blindly accepting the concept would be irresponsible. Evidence of all kinds of strange ocurrences appears all the time. What matters is you're openness to new ideas and finding out if the concept, no matter how far-fetched, could be real.

Who said it couldn't be real? Huh? What?

I never, ever, not once, ruled out the possibility that shared dreaming might exist. Read my posts on this forum, I made this very clear.

Originally Posted by Gills

Yes I would, and I said that a million times. But I wouldn't want to shove my experience down someone's throat and present shared dreaming as a fact.

I also wouldn't be mad for someone not believing me.

Ugh. Are we back to this part of the debate? No one is shoving anything down anyone's throat. No one is presenting shared dreaming as a fact. From what I see, people are discussing and sharing experiences they see as valid.

I could care less who believes in shared dreaming and who doesn't, but I do find it interesting to read other people's experiences and theories (whether the theories are pro or con).

...on another note
Sivason,
Thanks for sharing that story, it did make me chuckle. In Chemistry II, senior year in highschool, my friends and I preformed a few experiments involving acid and carbon as I recall, and they never turned out well!

Originally Posted by Gills

Yes I would, and I said that a million times. But I wouldn't want to shove my experience down someone's throat and present shared dreaming as a fact.
I also wouldn't be mad for someone not believing me.
It wouldn't prove difficult at all. The person I shared the dream with would be able to recall several dream events which I recall also.
Of course I would believe the experience, because it is a mutual experience.
That's why it is easily verifiable (if it indeed occurred).
Very true.
Who said it couldn't be real? Huh? What?
I never, ever, not once, ruled out the possibility that shared dreaming might exist. Read my posts on this forum, I made this very clear.

I wasn't trying to imply you hadn't said it a million times or that you might have suggested it couldn't be real. I haven't actually read every post and I was merely replying to one little point, and trying to do so with language that suggests openness to new ideas even if they seem...hard to sustain.

I have attempted it and I managed to create the agreed upon meeting place but on both occasions the other dreamer did not show up.





To add in...chemistry was one of my favorite classes. I can recall a few weird events as well, some involving the room filling with smoke.

Of course, it didn't quite compare to my experiences working with acids and gold-cyanide for the manufacture of circuit boards but still a lot of fun.

Gills is reminding me of Jakob right now, his wordings are exact. Oh laaawd! XD
BTW nice try tricking me ;P Gills IS jakob so there is no point in responding back to this troll. So i DO know you

I never, ever, not once, ruled out the possibility that shared dreaming might exist. Read my posts on this forum, I made this very clear.

Calm everyone. Poor Gills was not trolling. Just made a polite comment on my post. I am sure if you all look back few posts, you will see this. He then got accussed of trolling, and every comment he makes gets more people thinking he is. Gills has been very polite. Lets drop this thread, until someone has a new thought or observation?

Here is what'll hopefully be a slightly different direction for our debate:

My main problem with shared-dreaming, I think, is the question of how physically it might work ... how are we transmitting our presence from dreamer to dreamer?

Well, I don't have an answer, of course, but I stumbled upon the following post by Chimpertainment, and I felt it might be worth posting. So here it is, in it's entirety:

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

So, Ive been thinking. If dreaming and psychic connection happens on magnetically based modes of communication, could the natural magnetic fields of the Earth be used in the dream state?

Check this out:

ScienceCasts: Hidden Magnetic Portals Around Earth - YouTube

Part 2: Frequency - PEMF - PEMF Therapy - PEMFT - PEMF Device Reviews

The Earth has a lattice structure of invisible magnetic strings. They all connect is specific points on the Earth, in the atmosphere and in space. Ive seen a lot of people use techniques like teleportation, or time travel using portals. I recall, when I was more experienced in dreams, that I could use the same portal repeatedly.

Anyways, any thoughts on this topic? Im just planting the seeds

I hope Chimpertainment will forgive my audacity of poaching his post (and I will delete it if you object), but I think his idea fits right in here, and is worth discussion:

Though the Earth's magnetosphere is incredibly weak on a micro-basis, perhaps its presence can indeed provide a navigable matrix for dream-sharing thought energy to traverse (in intended directions, no less).

In a sense, nature may have provided us with a world wide web for dream-sharing!

This is just a thought, and is shamelessly unoriginal, but I'm hoping it'll re-stir some interest in the actual debate. If not, then just ignore me!

Originally Posted by Gills

LOL, you are exactly right! This thread began as a serious and logical shared dreaming experiment, and then it turned into a simple "guess the word I'm thinking of" game.

What is really funny, is that during this one month period of trying to "retrieve" the password, we will have so many guesses, that the chances are actually moderately high of someone simply guessing the right password.

Then we will have this person proclaim himself a shared dreamer.

Gills

Please look at this

Paragraph 25

The odds against two complete strangers on the same night, geologically separated by 500 miles, dreaming of being on a boat cutting open a fish and having the face of the fish turning into a bloody man's face are astronomical, and that both dreamers specifically mentioned flounder seems to argue against any notion that the correspondences are a chance occurrence.

Although not as striking in matching details, another female dreamer saw an:

"animal face and an animal with an open wound that I wamted to sew up or heal before too much was lost. "

Paragraph 26 next

It is post #62 on this thread:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/what-y...ml#post1927470

The earth's magnetic field can move charged particles like electrons, but the field itself won't transfer information between people. It would be like using the sound of the wind in trees to communicate. You can make sound, such as with your voice, but the background noise doesn't help, it's just something extra to be separated from the noise you want to hear. Using electromagnetics to communicate amounts to sending light or radio waves from your brain.

The biggest problem with that, or with using charged particles, is extracting the desired information. It's exactly like trying to see your reflection in a shag carpet, except much harder because the mixing is much greater and the signal is much weaker. This difficulty eliminates the possibility all by itself, as I see it, but here are a couple of other things that don't fit. Electromagnetics effects generally decline in strength in proportion to square of distance. If you could share thought with someone 2000 miles away, you would be blinded by the thought of someone ten feet from you, because the signal would be a trillion times stronger. Yet it seems that distance makes little difference, except insofar as it influences where you put your attention. Also, some people report precognitive effects when sharing thought, and electromagnetics doesn't work for that.

Changing the subject slightly. Some people offer theoretical reasons scientists should be studying shared dreaming. I offered reasons they don't. As a result of this thread, I made another attempt to reach out to researchers on this topic. I got a couple of friendly responses, but no interest in investigation. And the reasons forthe lack of collaboration seem to be pretty much what I described.

Disbelieving in shared dreaming requires believing that all people who describe such experiences are lying, deluded, or insane. And while some experiences can be explained as random coincidences or attributed to other fallacies, some can only be plausibly dismissed as lying or outright insanity. Of course people are free to believe wha they want, and certainly a high portion of believers are quite a bit less than objective. But belief and disbelief is not a symmetrical situation in this sense: believers are not dismissing the personal experience of unbelievers as unreal, but are doing that in relation to some believers. Of course some of those people are going to take offense at being called liars or similar. I agree that the fact that so many believers are liars seems to suggest that they all might be. But there are other reasons for this correlation. For almost any notable personal skill or ability, more people say they can do it than actually can do it, even for thugs that are much more easily provable like athletic or artistic accomplishment. And the absence of doubt, confidence in one's ability, is often key to those who can do it. That lack of doubt often amounts to a lack of objectivity though.

I had what seemed to be a shared dream with someone from this site Thursday night, but I've been too busy to post. That person does not think of shared dreaming as being a matter of two people mentally traveling to the same location. They intentionally tried to reach me, not necessarily at that same time. They appeared as a young, dark haired man. The things I said had to do with motive/economics/destiny. I don't consider this anecdote to be evidence of shared dreaming, I'm just posting it because past experience suggests it would have been a real person, and I haven't yet connected it with anyone.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Here is what'll hopefully be a slightly different direction for our debate:

My main problem with shared-dreaming, I think, is the question of how physically it might work ... how are we transmitting our presence from dreamer to dreamer?

This has been my big question as well. Thank you Sageous, for tempering my outburst.
Quantum physics is the closest thing I can think of that would reasonably provide at least a foundation for the kind of communication we are talking about. At the sub atomic level, which i think dreams exist, particles can disappear and reappear somewhere very far away seemingly without regard to time or space. Yet, all things we know of in science operates upon this structure of electricity and magnetism. This is why I wondered about the magnetic structure of the earth. I am sure it is involved in our brains operations regardless but consciously navigating that energy seems far-fetched.
Perhaps when we discover more about dark matter and dark energy, we can begin to look at things on a smaller level. Originally it was thought these forces could not have any effect on matter; however, now they are saying it does have an effect, but they are not sure how much.

Originally Posted by Gills

What is the truth then?

Or are you simply being incoherent?

That reminds me of Pilate asking Jesus the same question. What is truth? I am certainly not advocating that we assume shared dreaming is real because someone says as much. What I like to avoid is automatically dismissing those same people because their experiences seem ridiculous. Many times, the experience of a person is valid while their interpretation of the experience is in question.
What I see you doing Gills, is intentionally seeking out shared dreaming discussions throughout this forum and attempting to throw it off track or dissolve it completely into tirades about how we can know what we know.
Perhaps you are just confused and you are angry that everyone is not as confused as you. I say this because I know the feeling. Are people really missing something when they believe something that is not scientifically verifiable? Why shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy their experience and explore its individual veracity? All I see you doing is immediately dismissing someone because their experience fits into the "unprovable" category.
Of course, I have already said this in other ways before, I just feel the need to defend this thread again because of your determined blind faith in proof.
If we never imagine what is possible, we will never discover the impossible. And as soon as you place burden of proof on the imagination, you have lost your humanity.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

The earth's magnetic field can move charged particles like electrons, but the field itself won't transfer information between people. It would be like using the sound of the wind in trees to communicate. You can make sound, such as with your voice, but the background noise doesn't help, it's just something extra to be separated from the noise you want to hear. Using electromagnetics to communicate amounts to sending light or radio waves from your brain.

Ok, cool. So, what if our brains use something else that reacts with charged particles but uses something different? I am thinking about dark matter/energy. To continue with your metaphor, maybe a dream is like a bubble of dark matter/energy which could sail along the magnetic wind metaphorically speaking. The magnetic fields would act like jet streams or wormholes for these ultra-sensitive particles?
This is completely theoretical but it sounds interesting...